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#32
posted to rec.boats
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Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
In article ,
says... On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 16:58:47 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 8/28/13 4:16 PM, wrote: On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 15:58:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: Rehab, any kind, is generally ineffective over the long haul. People either decide to stop or they don't but you can't make them if they don't want to. Right, so let's not even try, right? The question is "how many times"? The guy next door to me has been to rehab about 10 times, at tax payer expense and it has not made a lick of difference. He calls it "going to the spa" This is the same guy who has been "Baker acted" about a dozen times (involuntary assessment for "up to 72 hours") He has that down to about 4 hours because he knows what to say. They tried jail the last time and he was supposed to be locked up for a while but I still see him walking around. (if you can call that shuffling stumble "walking") I tried to help for years but I gave up on him 3 arrests ago. This guy can really tell a story and make you believe he wants to get better but once a junkie, always a junkie. Well, we all know that your years of experience with the addict next door plus, of course, your years of experience treating addicts of all varieties plus your educational background plus your years of supervision give you the wherewithal to make black or white pronouncements about the efficacy of all manner of treatment for all manner of addicts. There's no question that successfully treating substance abuse is not an easy task, and that a high percentage of addicts fall back into their bad habits. But that doesn't mean we should give up on addicts and addiction treatment. Oh, and "once a junkie, always a junkie" is hyperbolic bull****. How many do you know? How many were cured? The guy next door is just a good example of lots of experience I have with a number of these people. Maybe it is just because I don't live in that rarified air of academia you live in. Addicts there are more deeply closeted and hidden from view by families rich enough to keep them under wraps. One of the TWO persons I intimately dealt with for substance abuse damn near died, I didn't even know that person was as bad as he was. When I talked to a REAL psychiatrist, he said you know, addicts are the sneakiest people there are. It amazes me how much they really know about the art of hiding their problem. That's true!! |
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#33
posted to rec.boats
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Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
In article , says...
On 8/28/13 5:11 PM, wrote: On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 16:58:47 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 8/28/13 4:16 PM, wrote: On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 15:58:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: Rehab, any kind, is generally ineffective over the long haul. People either decide to stop or they don't but you can't make them if they don't want to. Right, so let's not even try, right? The question is "how many times"? The guy next door to me has been to rehab about 10 times, at tax payer expense and it has not made a lick of difference. He calls it "going to the spa" This is the same guy who has been "Baker acted" about a dozen times (involuntary assessment for "up to 72 hours") He has that down to about 4 hours because he knows what to say. They tried jail the last time and he was supposed to be locked up for a while but I still see him walking around. (if you can call that shuffling stumble "walking") I tried to help for years but I gave up on him 3 arrests ago. This guy can really tell a story and make you believe he wants to get better but once a junkie, always a junkie. Well, we all know that your years of experience with the addict next door plus, of course, your years of experience treating addicts of all varieties plus your educational background plus your years of supervision give you the wherewithal to make black or white pronouncements about the efficacy of all manner of treatment for all manner of addicts. There's no question that successfully treating substance abuse is not an easy task, and that a high percentage of addicts fall back into their bad habits. But that doesn't mean we should give up on addicts and addiction treatment. Oh, and "once a junkie, always a junkie" is hyperbolic bull****. How many do you know? How many were cured? The guy next door is just a good example of lots of experience I have with a number of these people. Maybe it is just because I don't live in that rarified air of academia you live in. Addicts there are more deeply closeted and hidden from view by families rich enough to keep them under wraps. You may have "experienced" relationships of some sort with a limited number of addicts, but you have no professional education, experience, or credentials in addiction or its treatment, nor are you considered any sort of expert in the field. You have a few anecdotes. And you DO??? |
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#34
posted to rec.boats
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Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
In article ,
says... On 8/28/13 5:35 PM, wrote: On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 17:23:40 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 8/28/13 5:11 PM, wrote: How many do you know? How many were cured? The guy next door is just a good example of lots of experience I have with a number of these people. Maybe it is just because I don't live in that rarified air of academia you live in. Addicts there are more deeply closeted and hidden from view by families rich enough to keep them under wraps. You may have "experienced" relationships of some sort with a limited number of addicts, but you have no professional education, experience, or credentials in addiction or its treatment, nor are you considered any sort of expert in the field. You have a few anecdotes. OK your turn. Show me some peer reviewed studies about the 10 year success of "rehab". I'm sure you can do your own lit search. Have at it. snerk |
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#35
posted to rec.boats
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Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
In article ,
says... On 8/28/13 11:57 PM, wrote: On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 17:40:56 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 8/28/13 5:35 PM, wrote: OK your turn. Show me some peer reviewed studies about the 10 year success of "rehab". I'm sure you can do your own lit search. Have at it. I have not found any reliable study that says any significant number of substance abusers come out of rehab, therapy or any or any other program with a 10 year success rate. There are a few people selling rehab who say they have amazing success rates but they are selling something, not doing research. It was your contention I was wrong. Prove it. I would accept 25% as a win for you if it was a real study that actually tracked patients for any significant amount of time. (not just people who stopped coming back) I only have to look at the half million or more addicted homeless to see all is not going well in paradise. That does not include those dis functionals who are living with friends or family. Then you have the addicts who are working at some level of functionality and the high functioning addicts. Once again, you are exhibiting an inability to think abstractly. Drug addiction is not an illness like, oh, the usual childhood diseases that can be prevented by an inoculation or that caught once, tend not to haunt you again. Drug addiction treatment, once administered, does not mean the individual who receives it has lifetime or even 10-year protection from a relapse. Drug addiction is a chronic disease, and it can be managed properly and successfully. But relapses are more than possible, as they are with other chronic medical illnesses, such as asthma or hypertension. And because there are strong possibilities of relapses with drug addiction doesn't mean treatment is a failure. As with other chronic illnesses, treatment for drug addiction necessitates lifetime evaluation and perhaps modifications when necessary. If you suffer from diabetes, proper treatment can help you get it under control and most of the symptoms will disappear, and the treatment is successful. What happens if you discontinue treatment for your chronic disease? It probably returns and you have a relapse. When a drug addict relapses, it doesn't necessarily mean the treatment he is receiving (or ignoring) has failed. It may just mean the treatment needs to be re-started or changed. Many people with certain mental/emotional illnesses get relief with a combination of medications and therapy that help them feel better and regain control of their lives. Some of those illnesses will require patients to take medications for the rest of their lives. After a while on meds, though, some patients talk themselves into believing they are "cured," so they stop the medications. So, what happens? In many cases the symptoms of the mental/emotional illness returns. Oh, and once again, 12-step programs are not treatment?they provide support. Wait!!!! YOU said that once an addict always an addict was hyperbole. Now you are saying it's a "chronic disease that can be managed..." Which is it? |
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#36
posted to rec.boats
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Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
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#37
posted to rec.boats
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Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
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#38
posted to rec.boats
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Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
On 8/29/13 8:48 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In article , says... On 8/28/13 11:57 PM, wrote: On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 17:40:56 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 8/28/13 5:35 PM, wrote: OK your turn. Show me some peer reviewed studies about the 10 year success of "rehab". I'm sure you can do your own lit search. Have at it. I have not found any reliable study that says any significant number of substance abusers come out of rehab, therapy or any or any other program with a 10 year success rate. There are a few people selling rehab who say they have amazing success rates but they are selling something, not doing research. It was your contention I was wrong. Prove it. I would accept 25% as a win for you if it was a real study that actually tracked patients for any significant amount of time. (not just people who stopped coming back) I only have to look at the half million or more addicted homeless to see all is not going well in paradise. That does not include those dis functionals who are living with friends or family. Then you have the addicts who are working at some level of functionality and the high functioning addicts. Once again, you are exhibiting an inability to think abstractly. Drug addiction is not an illness like, oh, the usual childhood diseases that can be prevented by an inoculation or that caught once, tend not to haunt you again. Drug addiction treatment, once administered, does not mean the individual who receives it has lifetime or even 10-year protection from a relapse. Drug addiction is a chronic disease, and it can be managed properly and successfully. But relapses are more than possible, as they are with other chronic medical illnesses, such as asthma or hypertension. And because there are strong possibilities of relapses with drug addiction doesn't mean treatment is a failure. As with other chronic illnesses, treatment for drug addiction necessitates lifetime evaluation and perhaps modifications when necessary. If you suffer from diabetes, proper treatment can help you get it under control and most of the symptoms will disappear, and the treatment is successful. What happens if you discontinue treatment for your chronic disease? It probably returns and you have a relapse. When a drug addict relapses, it doesn't necessarily mean the treatment he is receiving (or ignoring) has failed. It may just mean the treatment needs to be re-started or changed. Many people with certain mental/emotional illnesses get relief with a combination of medications and therapy that help them feel better and regain control of their lives. Some of those illnesses will require patients to take medications for the rest of their lives. After a while on meds, though, some patients talk themselves into believing they are "cured," so they stop the medications. So, what happens? In many cases the symptoms of the mental/emotional illness returns. Oh, and once again, 12-step programs are not treatment?they provide support. Wait!!!! YOU said that once an addict always an addict was hyperbole. Now you are saying it's a "chronic disease that can be managed..." Which is it? I don't believe calling someone who is having success at controlling a substance abuse problem a "junkie" adds anything to the discussion. |
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#39
posted to rec.boats
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Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 08:52:17 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote: In article , says... On 8/28/2013 11:28 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 21:31:08 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: I got the it really doesn't care what you believe in as long as you acknowledge that there are bigger things in the universe than yourselves. === That's an important first step. Literally, the more we learn about the universe, the stranger it becomes. It is doubtful to me that we will ever understand the whole enchilada since new layers of the onion always seem to appear as the old ones are peeled away. Some choose to explain it with science, others with religion. In the end it may not make any difference but I lean towards science. Ha, I believe God *is* a Scientist... of sorts.... chew on that  What are some of God's scientific breakthroughs? === There are so few people that truly understand the mathematics and physics of modern cosmology that they really constitute a priesthood of sorts. |
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#40
posted to rec.boats
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Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
In article , says...
On 8/28/13 11:57 PM, wrote: On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 17:40:56 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 8/28/13 5:35 PM, wrote: OK your turn. Show me some peer reviewed studies about the 10 year success of "rehab". I'm sure you can do your own lit search. Have at it. I have not found any reliable study that says any significant number of substance abusers come out of rehab, therapy or any or any other program with a 10 year success rate. There are a few people selling rehab who say they have amazing success rates but they are selling something, not doing research. It was your contention I was wrong. Prove it. I would accept 25% as a win for you if it was a real study that actually tracked patients for any significant amount of time. (not just people who stopped coming back) I only have to look at the half million or more addicted homeless to see all is not going well in paradise. That does not include those dis functionals who are living with friends or family. Then you have the addicts who are working at some level of functionality and the high functioning addicts. Once again, you are exhibiting an inability to think abstractly. Drug addiction is not an illness like, oh, the usual childhood diseases that can be prevented by an inoculation or that caught once, tend not to haunt you again. Drug addiction treatment, once administered, does not mean the individual who receives it has lifetime or even 10-year protection from a relapse. Drug addiction is a chronic disease, and it can be managed properly and successfully. But relapses are more than possible, as they are with other chronic medical illnesses, such as asthma or hypertension. And because there are strong possibilities of relapses with drug addiction doesn't mean treatment is a failure. As with other chronic illnesses, treatment for drug addiction necessitates lifetime evaluation and perhaps modifications when necessary. If you suffer from diabetes, proper treatment can help you get it under control and most of the symptoms will disappear, and the treatment is successful. What happens if you discontinue treatment for your chronic disease? It probably returns and you have a relapse. When a drug addict relapses, it doesn't necessarily mean the treatment he is receiving (or ignoring) has failed. It may just mean the treatment needs to be re-started or changed. Many people with certain mental/emotional illnesses get relief with a combination of medications and therapy that help them feel better and regain control of their lives. Some of those illnesses will require patients to take medications for the rest of their lives. After a while on meds, though, some patients talk themselves into believing they are "cured," so they stop the medications. So, what happens? In many cases the symptoms of the mental/emotional illness returns. Oh, and once again, 12-step programs are not treatment?they provide support. The interesting thing is that the 12 step programs have a higher "success" rate than the institutional or non 12 step programs. I know several people who have been in 12 step programs and they have been sober for 15 and 20 years. They were never institutionalized, they never received "professional" help with their addiction. People have to want to change and forceing them to change or trying to modify their behavior isn't going to succeed. |
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