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Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
On Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:55:14 AM UTC-4, F.O.A.D. wrote:
I don't believe calling someone who is having success at controlling a substance abuse problem a "junkie" adds anything to the discussion. Why are you here then, greasy??? |
Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
In article ,
says... On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:42:15 -0400, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 09:44:00 -0400, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... The interesting thing is that the 12 step programs have a higher "success" rate than the institutional or non 12 step programs. I know several people who have been in 12 step programs and they have been sober for 15 and 20 years. They were never institutionalized, they never received "professional" help with their addiction. People have to want to change and forceing them to change or trying to modify their behavior isn't going to succeed. Cite? It is going to be hard. I looked at this for about 4 hours last night. I can find hundreds of articles saying THEIR program works "X"% of the time (with questionable stats) but it is very hard to find any actual studies that track the people in a verifiable case study. Places like CDC and NIH where you would expect this to happen don't seem to be doing it. The studies where they are actually looking at particular therapies seen to show pretty dismal results and the longest term study I saw was that methadone deal. They tried to polish that turd but the numbers expose the truth. Over half the patients were using illegal drugs 18 months in, while still in therapy. 12 step, particularly AA, does seem to work as long as the person stays in the program but a lot of people simply walk away and they still may fall off the wagon occasionally. The question is whether they try to get back on. I have been to a few meetings as a visitor and it is an interesting process. There is a certain religious component but it is far from the main driver of the program. They are really trying to say this is YOUR problem and YOU have to fix it. Then they give you some tools. They don't seem to care which god you want to use if that is the tool you decide on. I think the sponsor relationship might be the best tool. Some of the biggest AA meetings, believe it or not, happen in prison. People there are remorseful, and also they get coffee and cigarettes! So, they go, until they get out, then it's same old same old. Cite? Or personal experience? John (Gun Nut) H. http://tinyurl.com/pxgo9s2 http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-26_AAinCF.pdf http://tinyurl.com/oqxat2d http://silkworth.net/bobp/chapter14.html And yes, personal experience. I relative that I've dealt with on their attempts at recovery did prison time. Do you have a problem with that, asshole? |
Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
In article ,
says... On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:43:09 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 8/29/13 2:35 PM, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 21:31:08 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: "Tim" wrote in message ... On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 11:12:24 AM UTC-5, F.O.A.D. wrote: On 8/28/13 11:22 AM, wrote: The religious underpinnings and overlay of 12-step programs are off-putting for many addicts. A lot of people simply don't want religion shoved down their throats. There's a lot of substance/alcohol abusers who while in the `12-step' programs , follow the religious overtones closely. --------------------- Last year when I was involved with a family member's rehab and first steps with recovery I got a copy of the "Big Book" to read what the 12 step thing was all about. I had never heard of the "Big Book" and had only heard about the "12 step program" in the form of jokes. I had no clue what they actually were. Pretty naïve I guess for a guy my age. I confess that I didn't read the Big Book cover to cover, but I read enough to get the history, ideas and concepts. I didn't think it overly pushes religion at all, and certainly doesn't push any particular theology. I got the it really doesn't care what you believe in as long as you acknowledge that there are bigger things in the universe than yourselves. I was also fortunate to have several people who I had met (mostly through the guitar shop) who confided their status as recovering addicts to me. Prior to that I had no idea. They helped me and my wife deal with my family member's addiction and explained their respective adaptations of and implementation of the 12 step program as it applied to them . Some took it more literally than others, but it seemed to benefit them all. I certainly don't think it "shoves" religion down anyone's throats. AA pushes the concept of a 'higher power', which may be different for different folks. The higher power may be God, for those who believe, or it may be peer pressure from the group, or maybe just a 'big brother'. One thing is for sure, the success of AA groups does not put a lot of money into the pockets of psychologists. However, many hospitals for those needing psychological treatment also have an AA group on the premises. (That is also true for many military hospitals.) John (Gun Nut) H. Okay, Bill W. I wonder if Herring still attends AA meetings. Whether I did, do, or will - what business is it of yours? John (Gun Nut) H. This from the asshole who, when I stated that AA was big in prison wanted to know if it was "personal experience"..... |
Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
In article ,
says... On 8/29/13 3:55 PM, wrote: On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 15:16:40 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 8/29/13 3:11 PM, wrote: On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 13:23:31 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 8/29/13 1:12 PM, wrote: I believe that is because of the support component that Harry dismisses in such a cavalier way. I don't dismiss support programs for substance abusers. Once again, apparently, you cannot comprehend what you read. What I did say is that the religious-osity, as it were, of 12-step programs, is offputting to a substantial percentage of substance abusers. There is significant published criticism for various reasons of 12-step programs. The hard choices an addict needs to make is the main thing that puts them off. They just use "religious-osity" as one more excuse. Gee, I'm glad you have so much experience dealing with the huge variety of substance abusers and therefore feel qualified to state that those who disdain the 12 steps approach because of religious reasons do so as an excuse. Obviously, whatever your profession was, you chose poorly...since you could have been a first-rate therapist. What is your experience? I'm married to a first-rate psychotherapist who has seen and successfully treated a great number of substance abusers in several settings over her two decades as a licensed practitioner. She sometimes talks about what works and what doesn't for various folks who remain anonymous. Her doctoral dissertation was on a significant aspect of substance abuse, and she has written other papers that also have been published. She consults with NiMH professionals on substance abuse topics. Additionally, I've read "the lit" that comes to the house (professional papers and journals) and I know thought my union work a lot of construction workers in many trades who at some point in their careers suffered severe injuries, were prescribed heavy duty meds, got hooked, and then got clean and stayed clean. As a result, I wouldn't make the sweeping statements you make about substance abusers, or that, as you implied, a large number of those who disdain the 12 step programs because of their religious-osity just do so so they can remain outside of a therapeutic or support service. Do you mean the bricklayer's union rep? |
Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
In article ,
says... On 8/29/13 8:15 PM, JustWaitAFrekinMinute wrote: On 8/29/2013 5:09 PM, BAR wrote: In article , says... On 8/29/13 3:55 PM, wrote: On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 15:16:40 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 8/29/13 3:11 PM, wrote: On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 13:23:31 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 8/29/13 1:12 PM, wrote: I believe that is because of the support component that Harry dismisses in such a cavalier way. I don't dismiss support programs for substance abusers. Once again, apparently, you cannot comprehend what you read. What I did say is that the religious-osity, as it were, of 12-step programs, is offputting to a substantial percentage of substance abusers. There is significant published criticism for various reasons of 12-step programs. The hard choices an addict needs to make is the main thing that puts them off. They just use "religious-osity" as one more excuse. Gee, I'm glad you have so much experience dealing with the huge variety of substance abusers and therefore feel qualified to state that those who disdain the 12 steps approach because of religious reasons do so as an excuse. Obviously, whatever your profession was, you chose poorly...since you could have been a first-rate therapist. What is your experience? I'm married to a first-rate psychotherapist who has seen and successfully treated a great number of substance abusers in several settings over her two decades as a licensed practitioner. She sometimes talks about what works and what doesn't for various folks who remain anonymous. Her doctoral dissertation was on a significant aspect of substance abuse, and she has written other papers that also have been published. She consults with NiMH professionals on substance abuse topics. Additionally, I've read "the lit" that comes to the house (professional papers and journals) and I know thought my union work a lot of construction workers in many trades who at some point in their careers suffered severe injuries, were prescribed heavy duty meds, got hooked, and then got clean and stayed clean. As a result, I wouldn't make the sweeping statements you make about substance abusers, or that, as you implied, a large number of those who disdain the 12 step programs because of their religious-osity just do so so they can remain outside of a therapeutic or support service. Meaning you have no first hand experience. My wife is a battery expert, she can build them, analyze them and tell you why they are not performing well. I am just a battery user. And then you have to ask yourself if you believe any of what harry says... Nobody here does, well nobody who thinks for themselves. Ahh, the crazy man re-emerges. How's your blood med level? Lunacy under control for the moment? Until his jawbone gets out of whack! |
Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
On 8/30/13 9:09 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In article , says... On 8/29/13 3:55 PM, wrote: On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 15:16:40 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 8/29/13 3:11 PM, wrote: On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 13:23:31 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 8/29/13 1:12 PM, wrote: I believe that is because of the support component that Harry dismisses in such a cavalier way. I don't dismiss support programs for substance abusers. Once again, apparently, you cannot comprehend what you read. What I did say is that the religious-osity, as it were, of 12-step programs, is offputting to a substantial percentage of substance abusers. There is significant published criticism for various reasons of 12-step programs. The hard choices an addict needs to make is the main thing that puts them off. They just use "religious-osity" as one more excuse. Gee, I'm glad you have so much experience dealing with the huge variety of substance abusers and therefore feel qualified to state that those who disdain the 12 steps approach because of religious reasons do so as an excuse. Obviously, whatever your profession was, you chose poorly...since you could have been a first-rate therapist. What is your experience? I'm married to a first-rate psychotherapist who has seen and successfully treated a great number of substance abusers in several settings over her two decades as a licensed practitioner. She sometimes talks about what works and what doesn't for various folks who remain anonymous. Her doctoral dissertation was on a significant aspect of substance abuse, and she has written other papers that also have been published. She consults with NiMH professionals on substance abuse topics. Additionally, I've read "the lit" that comes to the house (professional papers and journals) and I know thought my union work a lot of construction workers in many trades who at some point in their careers suffered severe injuries, were prescribed heavy duty meds, got hooked, and then got clean and stayed clean. As a result, I wouldn't make the sweeping statements you make about substance abusers, or that, as you implied, a large number of those who disdain the 12 step programs because of their religious-osity just do so so they can remain outside of a therapeutic or support service. Do you mean the bricklayer's union rep? You just can't help yourself, eh? |
Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
In article ,
says... On 8/30/13 9:09 AM, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... On 8/29/13 3:55 PM, wrote: On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 15:16:40 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 8/29/13 3:11 PM, wrote: On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 13:23:31 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 8/29/13 1:12 PM, wrote: I believe that is because of the support component that Harry dismisses in such a cavalier way. I don't dismiss support programs for substance abusers. Once again, apparently, you cannot comprehend what you read. What I did say is that the religious-osity, as it were, of 12-step programs, is offputting to a substantial percentage of substance abusers. There is significant published criticism for various reasons of 12-step programs. The hard choices an addict needs to make is the main thing that puts them off. They just use "religious-osity" as one more excuse. Gee, I'm glad you have so much experience dealing with the huge variety of substance abusers and therefore feel qualified to state that those who disdain the 12 steps approach because of religious reasons do so as an excuse. Obviously, whatever your profession was, you chose poorly...since you could have been a first-rate therapist. What is your experience? I'm married to a first-rate psychotherapist who has seen and successfully treated a great number of substance abusers in several settings over her two decades as a licensed practitioner. She sometimes talks about what works and what doesn't for various folks who remain anonymous. Her doctoral dissertation was on a significant aspect of substance abuse, and she has written other papers that also have been published. She consults with NiMH professionals on substance abuse topics. Additionally, I've read "the lit" that comes to the house (professional papers and journals) and I know thought my union work a lot of construction workers in many trades who at some point in their careers suffered severe injuries, were prescribed heavy duty meds, got hooked, and then got clean and stayed clean. As a result, I wouldn't make the sweeping statements you make about substance abusers, or that, as you implied, a large number of those who disdain the 12 step programs because of their religious-osity just do so so they can remain outside of a therapeutic or support service. Do you mean the bricklayer's union rep? You just can't help yourself, eh? No, I really can't help but think about the truth. |
Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 09:07:16 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:
In article , says... On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:42:15 -0400, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 09:44:00 -0400, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... The interesting thing is that the 12 step programs have a higher "success" rate than the institutional or non 12 step programs. I know several people who have been in 12 step programs and they have been sober for 15 and 20 years. They were never institutionalized, they never received "professional" help with their addiction. People have to want to change and forceing them to change or trying to modify their behavior isn't going to succeed. Cite? It is going to be hard. I looked at this for about 4 hours last night. I can find hundreds of articles saying THEIR program works "X"% of the time (with questionable stats) but it is very hard to find any actual studies that track the people in a verifiable case study. Places like CDC and NIH where you would expect this to happen don't seem to be doing it. The studies where they are actually looking at particular therapies seen to show pretty dismal results and the longest term study I saw was that methadone deal. They tried to polish that turd but the numbers expose the truth. Over half the patients were using illegal drugs 18 months in, while still in therapy. 12 step, particularly AA, does seem to work as long as the person stays in the program but a lot of people simply walk away and they still may fall off the wagon occasionally. The question is whether they try to get back on. I have been to a few meetings as a visitor and it is an interesting process. There is a certain religious component but it is far from the main driver of the program. They are really trying to say this is YOUR problem and YOU have to fix it. Then they give you some tools. They don't seem to care which god you want to use if that is the tool you decide on. I think the sponsor relationship might be the best tool. Some of the biggest AA meetings, believe it or not, happen in prison. People there are remorseful, and also they get coffee and cigarettes! So, they go, until they get out, then it's same old same old. Cite? Or personal experience? John (Gun Nut) H. http://tinyurl.com/pxgo9s2 http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-26_AAinCF.pdf http://tinyurl.com/oqxat2d http://silkworth.net/bobp/chapter14.html And yes, personal experience. I relative that I've dealt with on their attempts at recovery did prison time. Do you have a problem with that, asshole? Your cites say nothing of 'same old same old' when they get out. Did you bother to read them? Does the name-calling boost your ego? John (Gun Nut) H. -- Hope you're having a great day! |
Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 22:08:57 -0400, BAR wrote:
In article , says... On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 19:18:57 -0400, John H wrote: At some point in the pain pill taking process, the taker knows he's taking the pills for something other than pain relief. At that point the taker makes a decision to cut down or continue. Yeah, it can be hard. John (Gun Nut) H. Pain management for a one shot procedure should be like a prednisone pack. A tapered dose that runs out in a few days. They both end up making you fatter. That's why God invented golf. Or was it just Scots he invented. I don't know. I do know if I hadn't shot an 8 on number 18 at Forest Greens today I'd have been in the 80's, which would have pleased me bunches! John (Gun Nut) H. -- Hope you're having a great day! |
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