On Sun, 28 Jul 2013 13:48:32 -0700 (PDT), True North wrote:

Funny..growing up we always knew when the American Navy was in by all the Popeye outfits crowding the downtown area.
Now if you see them, a lot look like street punks.
Different times.

Bull****.

But then, we know where it's coming from.

John (Gun Nut) H.
--

Hope you're having a great day!

"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...

On 7/28/13 4:42 PM, Eisboch wrote:


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...

On 7/28/13 2:39 PM, Eisboch wrote:


Nice. There's a guy who remained proud of his country even in 1968
as
the anti-war (Vietnam) protests were escalating.



Most of the anti Vietnam war protesters I knew and know were proud
of
their country and wanted it to do better by getting out of SE Asia.
The
"my country right or wrong" attitude is what gets young Americans
killed
for no reason.

-------------------------------------

I went into the military in 1968. Before I left the country I could
wear a uniform while thumbing a ride home for a weekend and have
half a
dozen cars pulling over to offer me a ride at the same time.

When I returned to the States for the first time (a little over a
year
later) we were not supposed to travel publically in uniform due to
protests and potential violence. I remember my orders to my new
duty
stations included a clause, "civilian clothes during travel is
authorized and recommended".




What does any of that have to do with the behavior of the anti war
protesters *I* knew and know? Oh, wait...you knew protesters who
didn't
behave in a civil fashion. Well, I know protesters in your party who
would like to kill the president.

-----------------------------

What party would that be Harry?

I am not interested in playing your word games. You have established
your feelings about Vietnam and those who served willingly or not.
Many felt they were doing their duty based on a culture that
encouraged service to the country, including the military, and
promoted it as being an honorable thing to do. Some did reluctantly
because they were drafted. But they served. I resent the fact
that you have stooped so low as to accuse some here of being
purposeful baby killers and asking crude questions like "How many
innocent Asians did you kill?" That's lower than whale ****.

Yeah, I know, you've repeated the "I am against the military
establishment and not the ones who served" thing several times. But
you also haven't hesitated to accuse those you know here personally as
well. You have no idea of what their backgrounds are or what they
did.

Sorry, but I didn't have any respect for those attitudes and
accusations then and I don't have any respect for them now.

Have you *ever* done anything in your life that would be considered an
"honorable" thing to do, or have you spent your life simply looking
out for what *you* can get out of the system or the interests of those
who paid you to promote their interests? Based on your history of
posting here, I think it's the latter.

On 7/28/13 6:33 PM, Eisboch wrote:


What party would that be Harry?

I am not interested in playing your word games. You have established
your feelings about Vietnam and those who served willingly or not. Many
felt they were doing their duty based on a culture that encouraged
service to the country, including the military, and promoted it as being
an honorable thing to do. Some did reluctantly because they were
drafted. But they served. I resent the fact that you have stooped
so low as to accuse some here of being purposeful baby killers and
asking crude questions like "How many innocent Asians did you kill?"
That's lower than whale ****.

Yeah, I know, you've repeated the "I am against the military
establishment and not the ones who served" thing several times. But
you also haven't hesitated to accuse those you know here personally as
well. You have no idea of what their backgrounds are or what they did.

Sorry, but I didn't have any respect for those attitudes and accusations
then and I don't have any respect for them now.

Have you *ever* done anything in your life that would be considered an
"honorable" thing to do, or have you spent your life simply looking out
for what *you* can get out of the system or the interests of those who
paid you to promote their interests? Based on your history of posting
here, I think it's the latter.

Anyone here who served in the military was paid to promote the interests
of the military and the political establishment.

You are right in one respect: I have no idea what the military veterans
in this newsgroup did while they were in uniform. Based on their
typically dirtbag behavior here, though, I can't imagine Herring,
FlaJim, Bert, et cetera, being anything but dirtbags while they were in
uniform.

I have nothing other than my gut feeling for this, but I suspect the
many months I spent in Vietnam finding and marking the bodies U.S.
service personnel killed in the field was at least as dangerous and
honorable as anything our boys here in uniform did. And the pay sucked.

On Sun, 28 Jul 2013 18:33:12 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I resent the fact
that you have stooped so low as to accuse some here of being
purposeful baby killers and asking crude questions like "How many
innocent Asians did you kill?" That's lower than whale ****.

=====

Thank you, absolutely right.

On 7/28/13 7:30 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jul 2013 18:33:12 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I resent the fact
that you have stooped so low as to accuse some here of being
purposeful baby killers and asking crude questions like "How many
innocent Asians did you kill?" That's lower than whale ****.

=====

Thank you, absolutely right.


Right, because we all know that the killing of noncombatant Asians was
nothing more than collateral damage, and not worth a second thought,
right, fellas?

Now, I know that many innocents were killed during World War II, and
that's sad, too, but at least our involvement in that war was necessary
for the survival of the free world. What were we doing in Vietnam, aside
from propping up another right-wing dictatorship?

On Sun, 28 Jul 2013 19:34:13 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

Right, because we all know that the killing of noncombatant Asians was
nothing more than collateral damage, and not worth a second thought,
right, fellas?

===

Killing of anyone is morally wrong unless they are trying to kill you
or your fellow troops. That said, war is hell. Many innocent
civillians are killed in all wars - doesn't make it right but there is
plenty of precedent for it.

On 7/28/13 7:42 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jul 2013 19:34:13 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

Right, because we all know that the killing of noncombatant Asians was
nothing more than collateral damage, and not worth a second thought,
right, fellas?

===

Killing of anyone is morally wrong unless they are trying to kill you
or your fellow troops. That said, war is hell. Many innocent
civillians are killed in all wars - doesn't make it right but there is
plenty of precedent for it.



Indeed, plenty of noncombatant civilians were killed in World War II,
the war in which the world as we know it was at stake. The rationales
for the war against Vietnam were nothing more than political canards,
and therefore the massive number of civilian deaths was even more
horrific.

"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...

On 7/28/13 6:33 PM, Eisboch wrote:


What party would that be Harry?

I am not interested in playing your word games. You have
established
your feelings about Vietnam and those who served willingly or not.
Many
felt they were doing their duty based on a culture that encouraged
service to the country, including the military, and promoted it as
being
an honorable thing to do. Some did reluctantly because they were
drafted. But they served. I resent the fact that you have
stooped
so low as to accuse some here of being purposeful baby killers and
asking crude questions like "How many innocent Asians did you kill?"
That's lower than whale ****.

Yeah, I know, you've repeated the "I am against the military
establishment and not the ones who served" thing several times.
But
you also haven't hesitated to accuse those you know here personally
as
well. You have no idea of what their backgrounds are or what they
did.

Sorry, but I didn't have any respect for those attitudes and
accusations
then and I don't have any respect for them now.

Have you *ever* done anything in your life that would be considered
an
"honorable" thing to do, or have you spent your life simply looking
out
for what *you* can get out of the system or the interests of those
who
paid you to promote their interests? Based on your history of
posting
here, I think it's the latter.

Anyone here who served in the military was paid to promote the
interests
of the military and the political establishment.

You are right in one respect: I have no idea what the military
veterans
in this newsgroup did while they were in uniform. Based on their
typically dirtbag behavior here, though, I can't imagine Herring,
FlaJim, Bert, et cetera, being anything but dirtbags while they were
in
uniform.

I have nothing other than my gut feeling for this, but I suspect the
many months I spent in Vietnam finding and marking the bodies U.S.
service personnel killed in the field was at least as dangerous and
honorable as anything our boys here in uniform did. And the pay
sucked.

------------------------------------------

Two comments, then I am done. You're entitled to the last word.

1. "Anyone here who served in the military was paid to promote the
interests of the military and the political establishment" might be a
technically accurate statement, but it has absolutely no meaning or
value in terms of why they served. It's another example of your
word games, twisting the context of a discussion.

2. Few people, military or civilian, who actually served or worked in
Vietnam during the war period spend much time (if any) publically
discussing what they did, why they did it, when they did it or how
they happened to be there in the first place. You seem to be an
exception which causes a "gut" feel that your tales are questionable.

On 7/28/13 7:50 PM, Eisboch wrote:


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...

On 7/28/13 6:33 PM, Eisboch wrote:


What party would that be Harry?

I am not interested in playing your word games. You have established
your feelings about Vietnam and those who served willingly or not. Many
felt they were doing their duty based on a culture that encouraged
service to the country, including the military, and promoted it as being
an honorable thing to do. Some did reluctantly because they were
drafted. But they served. I resent the fact that you have stooped
so low as to accuse some here of being purposeful baby killers and
asking crude questions like "How many innocent Asians did you kill?"
That's lower than whale ****.

Yeah, I know, you've repeated the "I am against the military
establishment and not the ones who served" thing several times. But
you also haven't hesitated to accuse those you know here personally as
well. You have no idea of what their backgrounds are or what they did.

Sorry, but I didn't have any respect for those attitudes and accusations
then and I don't have any respect for them now.

Have you *ever* done anything in your life that would be considered an
"honorable" thing to do, or have you spent your life simply looking out
for what *you* can get out of the system or the interests of those who
paid you to promote their interests? Based on your history of posting
here, I think it's the latter.

Anyone here who served in the military was paid to promote the interests
of the military and the political establishment.

You are right in one respect: I have no idea what the military veterans
in this newsgroup did while they were in uniform. Based on their
typically dirtbag behavior here, though, I can't imagine Herring,
FlaJim, Bert, et cetera, being anything but dirtbags while they were in
uniform.

I have nothing other than my gut feeling for this, but I suspect the
many months I spent in Vietnam finding and marking the bodies U.S.
service personnel killed in the field was at least as dangerous and
honorable as anything our boys here in uniform did. And the pay sucked.

------------------------------------------

Two comments, then I am done. You're entitled to the last word.

1. "Anyone here who served in the military was paid to promote the
interests of the military and the political establishment" might be a
technically accurate statement, but it has absolutely no meaning or
value in terms of why they served. It's another example of your word
games, twisting the context of a discussion.

2. Few people, military or civilian, who actually served or worked in
Vietnam during the war period spend much time (if any) publically
discussing what they did, why they did it, when they did it or how they
happened to be there in the first place. You seem to be an exception
which causes a "gut" feel that your tales are questionable.


Several people here who served said they either were drafted or signed
up to avoid getting drafted into the service they didn't want. Does that
qualify as reasons for why they served?

I have lots of friends who saw service in Vietnam. Most of them are not
ashamed or embarrassed about it. I wasn't in the military, and I have no
reluctance to talk generally about what I did in Vietnam. ****ty as the
experience was, it wasn't nearly as dangerous for me as the time I spent
in El Salvador, during which time two of my compadres were shot and
killed while having a meal in a restaurant. Oh, I wasn't *there* for the
money, either.

On Sun, 28 Jul 2013 18:33:12 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:



"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
om...

On 7/28/13 4:42 PM, Eisboch wrote:


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...

On 7/28/13 2:39 PM, Eisboch wrote:


Nice. There's a guy who remained proud of his country even in 1968
as
the anti-war (Vietnam) protests were escalating.



Most of the anti Vietnam war protesters I knew and know were proud
of
their country and wanted it to do better by getting out of SE Asia.
The
"my country right or wrong" attitude is what gets young Americans
killed
for no reason.

-------------------------------------

I went into the military in 1968. Before I left the country I could
wear a uniform while thumbing a ride home for a weekend and have
half a
dozen cars pulling over to offer me a ride at the same time.

When I returned to the States for the first time (a little over a
year
later) we were not supposed to travel publically in uniform due to
protests and potential violence. I remember my orders to my new
duty
stations included a clause, "civilian clothes during travel is
authorized and recommended".




What does any of that have to do with the behavior of the anti war
protesters *I* knew and know? Oh, wait...you knew protesters who
didn't
behave in a civil fashion. Well, I know protesters in your party who
would like to kill the president.

-----------------------------

What party would that be Harry?

I am not interested in playing your word games. You have established
your feelings about Vietnam and those who served willingly or not.
Many felt they were doing their duty based on a culture that
encouraged service to the country, including the military, and
promoted it as being an honorable thing to do. Some did reluctantly
because they were drafted. But they served. I resent the fact
that you have stooped so low as to accuse some here of being
purposeful baby killers and asking crude questions like "How many
innocent Asians did you kill?" That's lower than whale ****.

Hee,hee. "Lower than whale ****"...haven't heard that since OCS.

Most of us lost all respect for Krause ages ago.

John (Gun Nut) H.
--

Hope you're having a great day!