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A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
....utility companies are fighting it, at least in some places.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/27/business/energy-environment/utilities-confront-fresh-threat-do-it-yourself-power.html?pagewanted=all I've seen first quality solar panels on EBAY for as little as 75 cents per watt. Installation and system costs can easily double or triple that amount but for those of us in a sunny climate, and with a south facing roof, things are starting to look interesting. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
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A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
"F.O.A.D." wrote:
On 7/27/13 6:26 PM, wrote: Of course electricians and licensed solar contractors will do everything they can to stop DIY installers. The government is on their side, denying any rebates to an unlicensed installs. Good. Licensed electricians and contractors are the ones who should be doing the work. I thought you only had a hard-on against college educated individuals, but I see you have no use for those who spend years learning a trade and being responsible for their work. There is a problem when you are required to use a union contractor for a simple job. Like doing trade shows in New anorak when you had to have union electrician plug in all you equipment and test gear. Simple NEMA 15 amp wall plug. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
On Sunday, July 28, 2013 12:52:53 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 18:54:46 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 7/27/13 6:26 PM, wrote: Of course electricians and licensed solar contractors will do everything they can to stop DIY installers. The government is on their side, denying any rebates to an unlicensed installs. Good. Licensed electricians and contractors are the ones who should be doing the work. I thought you only had a hard-on against college educated individuals, but I see you have no use for those who spend years learning a trade and being responsible for their work. Careful now, you are in over your depth again. They do sell O/L listed, plug and play solar collectors (Westinghouse/Akeena is one) These come with a NEMA 5-15 plug, you just mount the collector on any surface that faces the sun and plug it in to a handy receptacle. Why would you need an electrician or solar contractor for that? At trade shows we have to hire the union guys to PLUG IN THE BOOTH LIGHTS AND EQUIPMENT. It's against union rules for us (electronic engineers) to plug in AC power cords ourselves. This kind of BS is exactly why Detroit is bankrupt, and there is no manufacturing in the US anymore. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
On 7/28/13 10:39 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, July 28, 2013 12:52:53 AM UTC-4, wrote: On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 18:54:46 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 7/27/13 6:26 PM, wrote: Of course electricians and licensed solar contractors will do everything they can to stop DIY installers. The government is on their side, denying any rebates to an unlicensed installs. Good. Licensed electricians and contractors are the ones who should be doing the work. I thought you only had a hard-on against college educated individuals, but I see you have no use for those who spend years learning a trade and being responsible for their work. Careful now, you are in over your depth again. They do sell O/L listed, plug and play solar collectors (Westinghouse/Akeena is one) These come with a NEMA 5-15 plug, you just mount the collector on any surface that faces the sun and plug it in to a handy receptacle. Why would you need an electrician or solar contractor for that? At trade shows we have to hire the union guys to PLUG IN THE BOOTH LIGHTS AND EQUIPMENT. It's against union rules for us (electronic engineers) to plug in AC power cords ourselves. This kind of BS is exactly why Detroit is bankrupt, and there is no manufacturing in the US anymore. Oh, right. It has nothing to do with American manufacturers wanting to pay $2.00 a day for labor. Oh, most convention centers want their people or contractors to do the work so as to avoid additional liability i$$ue$ caused by morons who don't handle electrical hookups properly or safely, or fall off ladders, et cetera. Wait, wait, maybe the convention centers should have special rules for special "electronic engineers" like you, and separate rules for floor sweepers like Scotty. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
In article ,
says... On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 18:54:46 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 7/27/13 6:26 PM, wrote: Of course electricians and licensed solar contractors will do everything they can to stop DIY installers. The government is on their side, denying any rebates to an unlicensed installs. Good. Licensed electricians and contractors are the ones who should be doing the work. I thought you only had a hard-on against college educated individuals, but I see you have no use for those who spend years learning a trade and being responsible for their work. Careful now, you are in over your depth again. They do sell O/L listed, plug and play solar collectors (Westinghouse/Akeena is one) These come with a NEMA 5-15 plug, you just mount the collector on any surface that faces the sun and plug it in to a handy receptacle. Why would you need an electrician or solar contractor for that? You still get no tax relief from the government when you buy them. Harry's proven he's not handy at all! Remember the deck he did himself and the picture had the contractor's trailer in it?! One huge disadvantage of discouraging DIY installers is you are choking off innovation. A contractor is going to install a product that has been around long enough to be tested 6 ways from Sunday and he will choose the one that gives him the highest profit margins. A DIY guy might actually come up with a much better system and he will be trying something new, not just the same old tired technology that is already in the distribution network. I suppose you have heard of the Edison paradox. If Edison had actually gone to college, he would have been told the things he invented, were not possible by people with no imagination. But Edison was innovative and grasped new technology, the FOXites are afraid of that. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
"F.O.A.D." wrote:
On 7/28/13 10:39 AM, wrote: On Sunday, July 28, 2013 12:52:53 AM UTC-4, wrote: On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 18:54:46 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 7/27/13 6:26 PM, wrote: Of course electricians and licensed solar contractors will do everything they can to stop DIY installers. The government is on their side, denying any rebates to an unlicensed installs. Good. Licensed electricians and contractors are the ones who should be doing the work. I thought you only had a hard-on against college educated individuals, but I see you have no use for those who spend years learning a trade and being responsible for their work. Careful now, you are in over your depth again. They do sell O/L listed, plug and play solar collectors (Westinghouse/Akeena is one) These come with a NEMA 5-15 plug, you just mount the collector on any surface that faces the sun and plug it in to a handy receptacle. Why would you need an electrician or solar contractor for that? At trade shows we have to hire the union guys to PLUG IN THE BOOTH LIGHTS AND EQUIPMENT. It's against union rules for us (electronic engineers) to plug in AC power cords ourselves. This kind of BS is exactly why Detroit is bankrupt, and there is no manufacturing in the US anymore. Oh, right. It has nothing to do with American manufacturers wanting to pay $2.00 a day for labor. Oh, most convention centers want their people or contractors to do the work so as to avoid additional liability i$$ue$ caused by morons who don't handle electrical hookups properly or safely, or fall off ladders, et cetera. Wait, wait, maybe the convention centers should have special rules for special "electronic engineers" like you, and separate rules for floor sweepers like Scotty. What the ****! Plugging in a standard wall plug, even a liberal arts major can handle that. This is not wiring in junction boxes, this is a standard house plug that is being plugged in to a receptacle that is already there via a union electrician. Does the next union electrician need to be there to check the first ones work? |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
On Sunday, July 28, 2013 11:10:17 AM UTC-4, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 7/28/13 10:39 AM, wrote: On Sunday, July 28, 2013 12:52:53 AM UTC-4, wrote: On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 18:54:46 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 7/27/13 6:26 PM, wrote: Of course electricians and licensed solar contractors will do everything they can to stop DIY installers. The government is on their side, denying any rebates to an unlicensed installs. Good. Licensed electricians and contractors are the ones who should be doing the work. I thought you only had a hard-on against college educated individuals, but I see you have no use for those who spend years learning a trade and being responsible for their work. Careful now, you are in over your depth again. They do sell O/L listed, plug and play solar collectors (Westinghouse/Akeena is one) These come with a NEMA 5-15 plug, you just mount the collector on any surface that faces the sun and plug it in to a handy receptacle. Why would you need an electrician or solar contractor for that? At trade shows we have to hire the union guys to PLUG IN THE BOOTH LIGHTS AND EQUIPMENT. It's against union rules for us (electronic engineers) to plug in AC power cords ourselves. This kind of BS is exactly why Detroit is bankrupt, and there is no manufacturing in the US anymore. Oh, right. It has nothing to do with American manufacturers wanting to pay $2.00 a day for labor. That's right, it doesn't. The reason Detroit is bankrupt and there is little manufacturing in America is primarily because unions have milked the system dry. People who barely got out of high school thought they deserved, with union help, a big house, three cars, private school, and a boat just for just for putting a screw in a fender 40 hours a week. Unfortunately for them, Stein's Law kicked in. Oh, most convention centers want their people or contractors to do the work so as to avoid additional liability i$$ue$ caused by morons who don't handle electrical hookups properly or safely, or fall off ladders, et cetera. Heh. The mouth-breathing idiots they send to the booth to plug in the equipment have to be shown how to do it (literally). I've watched them destroy about as much stuff as they've sucessfully hooked up. Of course, when they destroy something union rules prevent them from being fired, and if they break a nail doing it they get time off with compensation. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
In article 574174210396721821.042074bmckeenospam-
, says... "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 7/28/13 10:39 AM, wrote: On Sunday, July 28, 2013 12:52:53 AM UTC-4, wrote: On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 18:54:46 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 7/27/13 6:26 PM, wrote: Of course electricians and licensed solar contractors will do everything they can to stop DIY installers. The government is on their side, denying any rebates to an unlicensed installs. Good. Licensed electricians and contractors are the ones who should be doing the work. I thought you only had a hard-on against college educated individuals, but I see you have no use for those who spend years learning a trade and being responsible for their work. Careful now, you are in over your depth again. They do sell O/L listed, plug and play solar collectors (Westinghouse/Akeena is one) These come with a NEMA 5-15 plug, you just mount the collector on any surface that faces the sun and plug it in to a handy receptacle. Why would you need an electrician or solar contractor for that? At trade shows we have to hire the union guys to PLUG IN THE BOOTH LIGHTS AND EQUIPMENT. It's against union rules for us (electronic engineers) to plug in AC power cords ourselves. This kind of BS is exactly why Detroit is bankrupt, and there is no manufacturing in the US anymore. Oh, right. It has nothing to do with American manufacturers wanting to pay $2.00 a day for labor. Oh, most convention centers want their people or contractors to do the work so as to avoid additional liability i$$ue$ caused by morons who don't handle electrical hookups properly or safely, or fall off ladders, et cetera. Wait, wait, maybe the convention centers should have special rules for special "electronic engineers" like you, and separate rules for floor sweepers like Scotty. What the ****! Plugging in a standard wall plug, even a liberal arts major can handle that. Maybe. This is not wiring in junction boxes, this is a standard house plug that is being plugged in to a receptacle that is already there via a union electrician. Does the next union electrician need to be there to check the first ones work? I think that in this day and age, if a person can't do some simple wiring tasks, they shouldn't have electricity. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
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A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
On Sunday, July 28, 2013 2:18:18 PM UTC-4, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 7/28/13 12:57 PM, wrote: ring in America is primarily because unions have milked the system dry. People who barely got out of high school thought they deserved, with union help, a big house, three cars, private school, and a boat just for just for putting a screw in a fender 40 hours a week. Unfortunately for them, Stein's Law kicked in. Oh, most convention centers want their people or contractors to do the work so as to avoid additional liability i$$ue$ caused by morons who don't handle electrical hookups properly or safely, or fall off ladders, et cetera. Heh. The mouth-breathing idiots they send to the booth to plug in the equipment have to be shown how to do it (literally). I've watched them destroy about as much stuff as they've sucessfully hooked up. Of course, when they destroy something union rules prevent them from being fired, and if they break a nail doing it they get time off with compensation. Well, of course...you're a mouth-breathing white southern racist living in a state infamous for exploiting people and for wanting to secede from the United States. I lost track: is the flag of slavery insurrection still flying over your state capital? Yawn... the best part of you ran down your mama's leg. Paid off those tax debts and bankruptcies yet? But, have a nice day. :-) |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
wrote in message ... Heh. The mouth-breathing idiots they send to the booth to plug in the equipment have to be shown how to do it (literally). I've watched them destroy about as much stuff as they've sucessfully hooked up. Of course, when they destroy something union rules prevent them from being fired, and if they break a nail doing it they get time off with compensation. -------------------------------- Years ago, my company built several vacuum coating systems for McDonnell Douglas in St. Louis. The systems were assembled and went through acceptance testing at our facility before shipment to McDonnell Douglas. They deposited sacrificial coatings onto wing sections and landing gear components of aircraft used by the Navy for landing on aircraft carriers. Interestingly, the same system design was later licensed by McDonnell Douglas to be used by commercial bakeries for items like bread pans and other things used in the baking industry. Anyway, after the first system was shipped and installed at the St. Louis facility, I visited to see how the installation went and to make sure the system was operating properly. While watching it go through it's paces with the McDonnell Douglas project manager, I noticed that a set point in one of the instruments needed a slight "tweak". I pulled out my "tweaker" (a small screwdriver with an eighth inch flat blade) and approached the control console to make the adjustment when the project manager grabbed my arm and said, "You can't touch it!". I explained I was just going to make a minor adjustment that would take about 2 seconds to do but he told me he would have to fill out a work request to the McDonnell Douglas union shop to make the adjustment. I couldn't believe it. So, we waited. Went to lunch. Came back and waited some more. Finally the union electrician showed up with his huged tool box on wheels and a leather tool belt strapped to his waist. He asked what we wanted done. I decided to be a wise ass. I told him that the foreline valve on the diffusion pump was opening at too high a pressure, potentially causing backstreaming into the process chamber. I requested that he adjust the crossover pressure to 100 microns and set the foreline valve high setpoint to no more than 150 microns. I then handed him my "tweaker". He got the hint and suggested that maybe it would be better if I did it since I had designed the system. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
On 7/28/2013 2:50 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, July 28, 2013 2:18:18 PM UTC-4, F.O.A.D. wrote: On 7/28/13 12:57 PM, wrote: ring in America is primarily because unions have milked the system dry. People who barely got out of high school thought they deserved, with union help, a big house, three cars, private school, and a boat just for just for putting a screw in a fender 40 hours a week. Unfortunately for them, Stein's Law kicked in. Oh, most convention centers want their people or contractors to do the work so as to avoid additional liability i$$ue$ caused by morons who don't handle electrical hookups properly or safely, or fall off ladders, et cetera. Heh. The mouth-breathing idiots they send to the booth to plug in the equipment have to be shown how to do it (literally). I've watched them destroy about as much stuff as they've sucessfully hooked up. Of course, when they destroy something union rules prevent them from being fired, and if they break a nail doing it they get time off with compensation. Well, of course...you're a mouth-breathing white southern racist living in a state infamous for exploiting people and for wanting to secede from the United States. I lost track: is the flag of slavery insurrection still flying over your state capital? Yawn... the best part of you ran down your mama's leg. Paid off those tax debts and bankruptcies yet? But, have a nice day. :-) Yawn is right... Did he just try to insult you because you live in a state that was rebel during the frekin' civil war? LOL! |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
On 7/28/2013 12:54 PM, Califbill wrote:
Does the next union electrician need to be there to check the first ones work? Now that's a great idea. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
On Sunday, July 28, 2013 4:22:22 PM UTC-4, Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message ... Heh. The mouth-breathing idiots they send to the booth to plug in the equipment have to be shown how to do it (literally). I've watched them destroy about as much stuff as they've sucessfully hooked up. Of course, when they destroy something union rules prevent them from being fired, and if they break a nail doing it they get time off with compensation. -------------------------------- Years ago, my company built several vacuum coating systems for McDonnell Douglas in St. Louis. The systems were assembled and went through acceptance testing at our facility before shipment to McDonnell Douglas. They deposited sacrificial coatings onto wing sections and landing gear components of aircraft used by the Navy for landing on aircraft carriers. Interestingly, the same system design was later licensed by McDonnell Douglas to be used by commercial bakeries for items like bread pans and other things used in the baking industry. Anyway, after the first system was shipped and installed at the St. Louis facility, I visited to see how the installation went and to make sure the system was operating properly. While watching it go through it's paces with the McDonnell Douglas project manager, I noticed that a set point in one of the instruments needed a slight "tweak". I pulled out my "tweaker" (a small screwdriver with an eighth inch flat blade) and approached the control console to make the adjustment when the project manager grabbed my arm and said, "You can't touch it!". I explained I was just going to make a minor adjustment that would take about 2 seconds to do but he told me he would have to fill out a work request to the McDonnell Douglas union shop to make the adjustment. I couldn't believe it. So, we waited. Went to lunch. Came back and waited some more. Finally the union electrician showed up with his huged tool box on wheels and a leather tool belt strapped to his waist. He asked what we wanted done. I decided to be a wise ass. I told him that the foreline valve on the diffusion pump was opening at too high a pressure, potentially causing backstreaming into the process chamber. I requested that he adjust the crossover pressure to 100 microns and set the foreline valve high setpoint to no more than 150 microns. I then handed him my "tweaker". He got the hint and suggested that maybe it would be better if I did it since I had designed the system. LOL. I had to point to ty-raps that had to be cut, then point to connections to be made, all because they were "protecting the jobs they had "worked" so hard to keep". It's a sick joke, perpetrated on the American public. See my post about Stein's Law. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
On Sun, 28 Jul 2013 16:44:26 -0400, Hank©
wrote: On 7/28/2013 12:54 PM, Califbill wrote: Does the next union electrician need to be there to check the first ones work? Now that's a great idea. === We used to have a joke in the IT business that the ideal data center would have a staff of two: One operator and one dog. Q. So you might ask what the dog is for? A. To make sure the operator doesn't touch anything. That will be the factory of the future also. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
On Sun, 28 Jul 2013 17:54:36 -0400, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jul 2013 16:44:26 -0400, Hank© wrote: On 7/28/2013 12:54 PM, Califbill wrote: Does the next union electrician need to be there to check the first ones work? Now that's a great idea. === We used to have a joke in the IT business that the ideal data center would have a staff of two: One operator and one dog. Q. So you might ask what the dog is for? A. To make sure the operator doesn't touch anything. That will be the factory of the future also. The libtards will try to make sure the dog is a union member. John (Gun Nut) H. -- Hope you're having a great day! |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
On Sun, 28 Jul 2013 18:05:50 -0400, John H
wrote: On Sun, 28 Jul 2013 17:54:36 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Sun, 28 Jul 2013 16:44:26 -0400, Hank© wrote: On 7/28/2013 12:54 PM, Califbill wrote: Does the next union electrician need to be there to check the first ones work? Now that's a great idea. === We used to have a joke in the IT business that the ideal data center would have a staff of two: One operator and one dog. Q. So you might ask what the dog is for? A. To make sure the operator doesn't touch anything. That will be the factory of the future also. The libtards will try to make sure the dog is a union member. ============ Not all liberals are retarded, only the knee jerk variety - same for conservatives also. In any case, no problem if the dog is union assuming he gets paid only for the work he does, no credit for just showing up. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
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A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
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A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
In article ,
says... On 7/28/2013 2:50 PM, wrote: On Sunday, July 28, 2013 2:18:18 PM UTC-4, F.O.A.D. wrote: On 7/28/13 12:57 PM, wrote: ring in America is primarily because unions have milked the system dry. People who barely got out of high school thought they deserved, with union help, a big house, three cars, private school, and a boat just for just for putting a screw in a fender 40 hours a week. Unfortunately for them, Stein's Law kicked in. Oh, most convention centers want their people or contractors to do the work so as to avoid additional liability i$$ue$ caused by morons who don't handle electrical hookups properly or safely, or fall off ladders, et cetera. Heh. The mouth-breathing idiots they send to the booth to plug in the equipment have to be shown how to do it (literally). I've watched them destroy about as much stuff as they've sucessfully hooked up. Of course, when they destroy something union rules prevent them from being fired, and if they break a nail doing it they get time off with compensation. Well, of course...you're a mouth-breathing white southern racist living in a state infamous for exploiting people and for wanting to secede from the United States. I lost track: is the flag of slavery insurrection still flying over your state capital? Yawn... the best part of you ran down your mama's leg. Paid off those tax debts and bankruptcies yet? But, have a nice day. :-) Yawn is right... Did he just try to insult you because you live in a state that was rebel during the frekin' civil war? LOL! WHOOOOOOOOSH....... |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
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A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
In article ,
says... If a DIY guy buys all listed equipment, gets engineering for the panel installation, pulls permits and has everything inspected, he still will not get the 30% federal tax credit or the state rebate because he needs a licensed installer according to the law. What part of that is too hard for you to comprehend? No, you talking about "law" that doesn't exist is too damn stupid to comment much more on. Quit conflating fed and state laws too. That **** doesn't work with me. I'm talking federal. Why are you still talking about a state rebate law when that rebate well is dry? Can you trick the IRS into allowing the credit? Probably, but if you get audited, you will lose. Bull****. You just don't know what you're talking about. Just keep your receipts, and make sure you don't use a junk manufacturer that won't provide a manufacturer's tax credit certificate. Keep that too. If you're honest you won't lose an audit. http://www.irs.gov/uac/Tax-Credits-Available-for- Certain-Energy-Efficient-Home-Improvements This stuff is years old already. If you're having issues with DIY, blame it on Florida. The state rebate, when there was one, had to be applied for by the contractor and you got the check. Unfortunately these programs went broke and there are thousands of people waiting for millions of dollars worth of checks ... that are not coming. Take that up with your state. If you don't like it there, you've got the option to move. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
On 7/29/13 5:25 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 12:50:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 7/29/13 12:41 PM, wrote: If a DIY guy buys all listed equipment, gets engineering for the panel installation, pulls permits and has everything inspected, he still will not get the 30% federal tax credit or the state rebate because he needs a licensed installer according to the law. Good. Yup, **** saving the planet, you just want to save the jobs of your union buddies. Certainly, and I also want to be more assured that neighborhoods aren't threatened by homebrew amateur electricians who think they know what they are doing and don't, and string together wires or connections in a manner that electrocutes people or starts fires. You, on the other hand, want to cut the pay of anyone who trained and worked hard to earn a living. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
On 7/29/13 7:50 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 17:34:59 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 7/29/13 5:25 PM, wrote: On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 12:50:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 7/29/13 12:41 PM, wrote: If a DIY guy buys all listed equipment, gets engineering for the panel installation, pulls permits and has everything inspected, he still will not get the 30% federal tax credit or the state rebate because he needs a licensed installer according to the law. Good. Yup, **** saving the planet, you just want to save the jobs of your union buddies. Certainly, and I also want to be more assured that neighborhoods aren't threatened by homebrew amateur electricians who think they know what they are doing and don't, and string together wires or connections in a manner that electrocutes people or starts fires. You, on the other hand, want to cut the pay of anyone who trained and worked hard to earn a living. What part of "Permitted and Inspected" are you missing? I could show you some of the shoddy work those "trained", "hard working" licensed electricians try to get by inspectors. Well, then, you are too familiar with shoddy contractors and perhaps shoddy inspectors. The guys who came out to inspect my generator installation (gas and electric) spent considerable time here looking over all the work of the gas and electric contractors, talking to them, and checking every fitting and connection, including the 100+ feet of copper plumbing from the tank to the generator, the vent away from the generator, and every bit of the old panels and new panel. My recollection is that the electrical inspector was here for at least an hour. The gas inspector came twice, once to examine the fittings and the plumbing in its ditch, and again at generator start up. I was in south Florida on assignment for a client for two months after Hurricane Andrew and was astonished at the evidence of really shoddy construction and bad inspections allowed, even in commerical construction. Is Florida still a state where that happens? |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
In article ,
says... On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 14:11:31 -0500, Boating All Out wrote: Can you trick the IRS into allowing the credit? Probably, but if you get audited, you will lose. Bull****. You just don't know what you're talking about. Just keep your receipts, and make sure you don't use a junk manufacturer that won't provide a manufacturer's tax credit certificate. Keep that too. If you're honest you won't lose an audit. http://www.irs.gov/uac/Tax-Credits-Available-for- Certain-Energy-Efficient-Home-Improvements This stuff is years old already. If you're having issues with DIY, blame it on Florida. You ignored this part Not all energy-efficient improvements qualify so be sure you have the manufacturer?s tax credit certification statement, which can usually be found on the manufacturer?s website or with the product packaging. What the hell are you talking about? I mentioned the certificate above. That statement generally only comes with a professional installed system.. More bull****. The certificates are based on manufacturers product line or part numbers. Here. http://www.irs.gov/irb/2009-19_IRB/ar08.html I also said above don't use junk. Any reputable manufacturer will provide the certification with the product, or downloadable. All you need is a receipt to match. Here. http://blog.gogreensolar.com/2012/10...al-tax-credit- for-residential-pv.html I can't understand why you crow about how easy it is for you to DIY a solar power system to the public grid with off-the-shelf gear, but can't figure out how to do get the certificate for gear you paid for, and how to do the taxes. Seems you just like to constantly whine about the fed gov incentive program, even when it provides tax benefits to encourage solar. You ignore plain facts so you can keep whining. Blame the feds for Florida's shortcomings. Then you whine when a business might get a buck from you. It's only all good when you get the buck from somebody else. Only thing I can suspect - besides your utter penuriousness - is that you're bitter about Florida laws/regulations/incentives, which are totally ****ed up regarding solar power. Pretty funny, given it's the "Sunshine State." They should be leading the nation with solar. But hell no. http://www.earthtechling.com/2013/07/some-states-lead- in-solar-power-by-example/ Looks like Florida ranks about 20th with solar power. The "Sunshine State." Florida should be ashamed of itself. And as a Florida resident you should be ashamed for allowing this to happen in the "Sunshine State." Who the hell is in charge there? You're lucky Florida does well with nuke power. Was that your idea? .. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
"F.O.A.D." wrote:
On 7/29/13 7:50 PM, wrote: On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 17:34:59 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 7/29/13 5:25 PM, wrote: On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 12:50:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 7/29/13 12:41 PM, wrote: If a DIY guy buys all listed equipment, gets engineering for the panel installation, pulls permits and has everything inspected, he still will not get the 30% federal tax credit or the state rebate because he needs a licensed installer according to the law. Good. Yup, **** saving the planet, you just want to save the jobs of your union buddies. Certainly, and I also want to be more assured that neighborhoods aren't threatened by homebrew amateur electricians who think they know what they are doing and don't, and string together wires or connections in a manner that electrocutes people or starts fires. You, on the other hand, want to cut the pay of anyone who trained and worked hard to earn a living. What part of "Permitted and Inspected" are you missing? I could show you some of the shoddy work those "trained", "hard working" licensed electricians try to get by inspectors. Well, then, you are too familiar with shoddy contractors and perhaps shoddy inspectors. The guys who came out to inspect my generator installation (gas and electric) spent considerable time here looking over all the work of the gas and electric contractors, talking to them, and checking every fitting and connection, including the 100+ feet of copper plumbing from the tank to the generator, the vent away from the generator, and every bit of the old panels and new panel. My recollection is that the electrical inspector was here for at least an hour. The gas inspector came twice, once to examine the fittings and the plumbing in its ditch, and again at generator start up. I was in south Florida on assignment for a client for two months after Hurricane Andrew and was astonished at the evidence of really shoddy construction and bad inspections allowed, even in commerical construction. Is Florida still a state where that happens? Bull. My son in law is an OSHPD inspector. Hospitals hire reputable contractors and they are avoiding code a lot of the time. Why my son in law has a really nice profession. If these people are so well trained, why do you need an inspector. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
In article 93368714396889728.895218bmckeenospam-
, says... "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 7/29/13 7:50 PM, wrote: On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 17:34:59 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 7/29/13 5:25 PM, wrote: On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 12:50:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 7/29/13 12:41 PM, wrote: If a DIY guy buys all listed equipment, gets engineering for the panel installation, pulls permits and has everything inspected, he still will not get the 30% federal tax credit or the state rebate because he needs a licensed installer according to the law. Good. Yup, **** saving the planet, you just want to save the jobs of your union buddies. Certainly, and I also want to be more assured that neighborhoods aren't threatened by homebrew amateur electricians who think they know what they are doing and don't, and string together wires or connections in a manner that electrocutes people or starts fires. You, on the other hand, want to cut the pay of anyone who trained and worked hard to earn a living. What part of "Permitted and Inspected" are you missing? I could show you some of the shoddy work those "trained", "hard working" licensed electricians try to get by inspectors. Well, then, you are too familiar with shoddy contractors and perhaps shoddy inspectors. The guys who came out to inspect my generator installation (gas and electric) spent considerable time here looking over all the work of the gas and electric contractors, talking to them, and checking every fitting and connection, including the 100+ feet of copper plumbing from the tank to the generator, the vent away from the generator, and every bit of the old panels and new panel. My recollection is that the electrical inspector was here for at least an hour. The gas inspector came twice, once to examine the fittings and the plumbing in its ditch, and again at generator start up. I was in south Florida on assignment for a client for two months after Hurricane Andrew and was astonished at the evidence of really shoddy construction and bad inspections allowed, even in commerical construction. Is Florida still a state where that happens? Bull. My son in law is an OSHPD inspector. Hospitals hire reputable contractors and they are avoiding code a lot of the time. Why my son in law has a really nice profession. If these people are so well trained, why do you need an inspector. It is bull****. I'd like to see specifically what shoddy workmanship he's talking about. Florida's building code is very comprehensive and quite stringent. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
On 7/30/13 11:12 AM, Califbill wrote:
"F.O.A.D." wrote: On 7/29/13 7:50 PM, wrote: On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 17:34:59 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 7/29/13 5:25 PM, wrote: On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 12:50:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 7/29/13 12:41 PM, wrote: If a DIY guy buys all listed equipment, gets engineering for the panel installation, pulls permits and has everything inspected, he still will not get the 30% federal tax credit or the state rebate because he needs a licensed installer according to the law. Good. Yup, **** saving the planet, you just want to save the jobs of your union buddies. Certainly, and I also want to be more assured that neighborhoods aren't threatened by homebrew amateur electricians who think they know what they are doing and don't, and string together wires or connections in a manner that electrocutes people or starts fires. You, on the other hand, want to cut the pay of anyone who trained and worked hard to earn a living. What part of "Permitted and Inspected" are you missing? I could show you some of the shoddy work those "trained", "hard working" licensed electricians try to get by inspectors. Well, then, you are too familiar with shoddy contractors and perhaps shoddy inspectors. The guys who came out to inspect my generator installation (gas and electric) spent considerable time here looking over all the work of the gas and electric contractors, talking to them, and checking every fitting and connection, including the 100+ feet of copper plumbing from the tank to the generator, the vent away from the generator, and every bit of the old panels and new panel. My recollection is that the electrical inspector was here for at least an hour. The gas inspector came twice, once to examine the fittings and the plumbing in its ditch, and again at generator start up. I was in south Florida on assignment for a client for two months after Hurricane Andrew and was astonished at the evidence of really shoddy construction and bad inspections allowed, even in commerical construction. Is Florida still a state where that happens? Bull. My son in law is an OSHPD inspector. Hospitals hire reputable contractors and they are avoiding code a lot of the time. Why my son in law has a really nice profession. If these people are so well trained, why do you need an inspector. So your son in law will have a nice job. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
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A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
In article ,
says... On 7/30/13 12:31 PM, wrote: On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 10:12:11 -0500, Califbill wrote: "F.O.A.D." wrote: I was in south Florida on assignment for a client for two months after Hurricane Andrew and was astonished at the evidence of really shoddy construction and bad inspections allowed, even in commerical construction. Is Florida still a state where that happens? Bull. My son in law is an OSHPD inspector. Hospitals hire reputable contractors and they are avoiding code a lot of the time. Why my son in law has a really nice profession. If these people are so well trained, why do you need an inspector. It is interesting that Harry brought this up. Maryland does not have a uniform electrical code, any municipality can pretty much approve or exempt anything they want (the AHJ is king of his patch) and there is no state licensing of inspectors. Some places might have basic requirements and across the street, the inspector might just be the mayor's out of work brother in law (like it was in Florida 25 years ago). Contractor licensing looks pretty rudimentary too. (a 4 hour test and pay the fees) I did not see any continuing education requirements. My county uses "the National Electrical Code, as amended, which sets standards for and provides for the inspection of, inspection procedures, permit requirements of the installation, alteration, repair, servicing, and maintenance of electrical wiring and equipment and interpretation of the Electrical Code." What does your county use? The "brother in law knows wiring" code? That in no way means that the inspectors adhere to said code. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
"iBoaterer" wrote in message ... In article , says... On 7/30/13 12:31 PM, wrote: On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 10:12:11 -0500, Califbill wrote: "F.O.A.D." wrote: I was in south Florida on assignment for a client for two months after Hurricane Andrew and was astonished at the evidence of really shoddy construction and bad inspections allowed, even in commerical construction. Is Florida still a state where that happens? Bull. My son in law is an OSHPD inspector. Hospitals hire reputable contractors and they are avoiding code a lot of the time. Why my son in law has a really nice profession. If these people are so well trained, why do you need an inspector. It is interesting that Harry brought this up. Maryland does not have a uniform electrical code, any municipality can pretty much approve or exempt anything they want (the AHJ is king of his patch) and there is no state licensing of inspectors. Some places might have basic requirements and across the street, the inspector might just be the mayor's out of work brother in law (like it was in Florida 25 years ago). Contractor licensing looks pretty rudimentary too. (a 4 hour test and pay the fees) I did not see any continuing education requirements. My county uses "the National Electrical Code, as amended, which sets standards for and provides for the inspection of, inspection procedures, permit requirements of the installation, alteration, repair, servicing, and maintenance of electrical wiring and equipment and interpretation of the Electrical Code." What does your county use? The "brother in law knows wiring" code? That in no way means that the inspectors adhere to said code. -------------------------------- I haven't read the NEC book for several years but I think it used to have a statement in the preface to the effect of, "local codes and/or ordinances supersede these requirements" or something like that. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
In article ,
says... "iBoaterer" wrote in message ... In article , says... On 7/30/13 12:31 PM, wrote: On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 10:12:11 -0500, Califbill wrote: "F.O.A.D." wrote: I was in south Florida on assignment for a client for two months after Hurricane Andrew and was astonished at the evidence of really shoddy construction and bad inspections allowed, even in commerical construction. Is Florida still a state where that happens? Bull. My son in law is an OSHPD inspector. Hospitals hire reputable contractors and they are avoiding code a lot of the time. Why my son in law has a really nice profession. If these people are so well trained, why do you need an inspector. It is interesting that Harry brought this up. Maryland does not have a uniform electrical code, any municipality can pretty much approve or exempt anything they want (the AHJ is king of his patch) and there is no state licensing of inspectors. Some places might have basic requirements and across the street, the inspector might just be the mayor's out of work brother in law (like it was in Florida 25 years ago). Contractor licensing looks pretty rudimentary too. (a 4 hour test and pay the fees) I did not see any continuing education requirements. My county uses "the National Electrical Code, as amended, which sets standards for and provides for the inspection of, inspection procedures, permit requirements of the installation, alteration, repair, servicing, and maintenance of electrical wiring and equipment and interpretation of the Electrical Code." What does your county use? The "brother in law knows wiring" code? That in no way means that the inspectors adhere to said code. -------------------------------- I haven't read the NEC book for several years but I think it used to have a statement in the preface to the effect of, "local codes and/or ordinances supersede these requirements" or something like that. Yes, and always has. For instance many states use the I.B.C. building code, but many states also have amendments to that code. Then some have their own code but now days it is based on the I.B.C. Of course, then the IBC references others such as ACI and AISC. Then if the building is commercial or industrial, etc. you have OSHA. And now everyone wants their buildings LEED certifiable. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
On 7/30/13 12:31 PM, wrote: "F.O.A.D." wrote: My county uses "the National Electrical Code, as amended, which sets standards for and provides for the inspection of, inspection procedures, permit requirements of the installation, alteration, repair, servicing, and maintenance of electrical wiring and equipment and interpretation of the Electrical Code." What does your county use? The "brother in law knows wiring" code? That in no way means that the inspectors adhere to said code. ------------------------------------ The equipment I was involved with building consisted of large, stainless steel vacuum vessels with complex electrical controls, high voltage power supplies and other process related electronics. The technical proposals that we would submit were required to cite the applicable codes to be used in it's design and construction, especially for government projects. Problem is that in many cases there were no codes that covered certain aspects of the system. For example, the structural design of the chamber in terms of stresses, etc., are not covered in the ASME codes which are designed for pressure vessels, not vacuum. As a result, a 100 lb valve would be mounted on a standard ASME flange with about 14, three quarter inch bolts holding it on. Just a little overkill in terms of structural strength and cost. Same with many components used in the electrical design. The NEC code has absolutely nothing in it that addresses high voltage electron beam guns or power supplies. I modified our code "cite" page to include the following statement: "When the requirements of the system conflicts with any codes, the system requirements shall apply". |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
On 7/30/13 1:24 PM, Eisboch wrote:
"iBoaterer" wrote in message ... In article , says... On 7/30/13 12:31 PM, wrote: On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 10:12:11 -0500, Califbill wrote: "F.O.A.D." wrote: I was in south Florida on assignment for a client for two months after Hurricane Andrew and was astonished at the evidence of really shoddy construction and bad inspections allowed, even in commerical construction. Is Florida still a state where that happens? Bull. My son in law is an OSHPD inspector. Hospitals hire reputable contractors and they are avoiding code a lot of the time. Why my son in law has a really nice profession. If these people are so well trained, why do you need an inspector. It is interesting that Harry brought this up. Maryland does not have a uniform electrical code, any municipality can pretty much approve or exempt anything they want (the AHJ is king of his patch) and there is no state licensing of inspectors. Some places might have basic requirements and across the street, the inspector might just be the mayor's out of work brother in law (like it was in Florida 25 years ago). Contractor licensing looks pretty rudimentary too. (a 4 hour test and pay the fees) I did not see any continuing education requirements. My county uses "the National Electrical Code, as amended, which sets standards for and provides for the inspection of, inspection procedures, permit requirements of the installation, alteration, repair, servicing, and maintenance of electrical wiring and equipment and interpretation of the Electrical Code." What does your county use? The "brother in law knows wiring" code? That in no way means that the inspectors adhere to said code. -------------------------------- I haven't read the NEC book for several years but I think it used to have a statement in the preface to the effect of, "local codes and/or ordinances supersede these requirements" or something like that. Well, no offense, but this has deteriorated into another rec.boats facepalm thread. No matter what any posts, there are exceptions, there are reasons why it won't work, someone's brother in law knows a lousy inspector, someone's sister got electrocuted while using her AC powered vibrator, the contractors are no good, the contractors are lazy, there are exceptions to the code, ad nauseum. All that is missing is Herring trying to blame it all on the Democratic mayors of Chicago. That would earn the thread another facepalm. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
wrote in message ... On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 13:53:21 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: Same with many components used in the electrical design. The NEC code has absolutely nothing in it that addresses high voltage electron beam guns or power supplies. They deal with that by requiring that installed equipment shall be listed by a NRTL like U/L.. Then the inspector only checks to see that it was installed according to manufacturer instructions. The reality is after the building final , once you get inside the warehouse and shut the door, you are on your own. It is between you, OSHA and the fire marshal. ----------------------------------------- We only had one instance where a city required that a system we built be U/L certified or inspected. It was years ago and involved the old Bell and Howell company who had a facility in Chicago, about a mile from the airport. Our contract did not contain any U/L certification requirements but the local electrical inspector sprang it on both Bell and Howell and us after the system was built but before the city would issue a permit for it's installation. We ended up negotiating an acceptable inspection process with the U/L guy (different inspector) that satisfied everyone. On our end, we provided U/L certs for as many of the components we used that were available from the manufacturer. Items that were unique to the industry or entirely designed and made by my company were exempt, although I had to explain to the inspector what they were and what they did. He asked us to replace one simple and relatively inexpensive solenoid valve with a similar type that a U/L cert was readily available. The inspector told me it was basically for paperwork purposes to prove he did his job. I suspect that now-a-days the requirements are more stringent, plus the unique industry I was in has further matured, so there probably are now codes and either U/L or CE certs available for most components. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
On 7/30/13 3:25 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 12:41:16 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 7/30/13 12:31 PM, wrote: On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 10:12:11 -0500, Califbill wrote: "F.O.A.D." wrote: I was in south Florida on assignment for a client for two months after Hurricane Andrew and was astonished at the evidence of really shoddy construction and bad inspections allowed, even in commerical construction. Is Florida still a state where that happens? Bull. My son in law is an OSHPD inspector. Hospitals hire reputable contractors and they are avoiding code a lot of the time. Why my son in law has a really nice profession. If these people are so well trained, why do you need an inspector. It is interesting that Harry brought this up. Maryland does not have a uniform electrical code, any municipality can pretty much approve or exempt anything they want (the AHJ is king of his patch) and there is no state licensing of inspectors. Some places might have basic requirements and across the street, the inspector might just be the mayor's out of work brother in law (like it was in Florida 25 years ago). Contractor licensing looks pretty rudimentary too. (a 4 hour test and pay the fees) I did not see any continuing education requirements. My county uses "the National Electrical Code, as amended, which sets standards for and provides for the inspection of, inspection procedures, permit requirements of the installation, alteration, repair, servicing, and maintenance of electrical wiring and equipment and interpretation of the Electrical Code." What does your county use? The "brother in law knows wiring" code? You missed the part where I said Florida has a uniform state wide building code with NO LOCAL AMENDMENTS. The Electrical code is the NEC with one state wide amendment, requiring bonding metal studs. The local amendment thing is a big part of the problem. You say "my county" but how many other jurisdictions exist inside that county and what have they amended the code to say? Contractors tip toe around a mine field of local amendments that may change every time they cross a city or county border. For Example, Does Chesapeake Beach have a building department? Do they have their own amendments to the code? Chesapeake Beach has a mayor and council, but as far as I know depends upon the county for permits, schools, et cetera, although I do remember reading something about a zoning permit problem for some sort of celebration years ago. Depends upon the county for police, too. My guess is that none of the little towns or census places in this county have any substantial governmental operations. What we do have are some really interesting contemporary and historical residents. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 16:46:40 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 7/30/13 3:25 PM, wrote: On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 12:41:16 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 7/30/13 12:31 PM, wrote: On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 10:12:11 -0500, Califbill wrote: "F.O.A.D." wrote: I was in south Florida on assignment for a client for two months after Hurricane Andrew and was astonished at the evidence of really shoddy construction and bad inspections allowed, even in commerical construction. Is Florida still a state where that happens? Bull. My son in law is an OSHPD inspector. Hospitals hire reputable contractors and they are avoiding code a lot of the time. Why my son in law has a really nice profession. If these people are so well trained, why do you need an inspector. It is interesting that Harry brought this up. Maryland does not have a uniform electrical code, any municipality can pretty much approve or exempt anything they want (the AHJ is king of his patch) and there is no state licensing of inspectors. Some places might have basic requirements and across the street, the inspector might just be the mayor's out of work brother in law (like it was in Florida 25 years ago). Contractor licensing looks pretty rudimentary too. (a 4 hour test and pay the fees) I did not see any continuing education requirements. My county uses "the National Electrical Code, as amended, which sets standards for and provides for the inspection of, inspection procedures, permit requirements of the installation, alteration, repair, servicing, and maintenance of electrical wiring and equipment and interpretation of the Electrical Code." What does your county use? The "brother in law knows wiring" code? You missed the part where I said Florida has a uniform state wide building code with NO LOCAL AMENDMENTS. The Electrical code is the NEC with one state wide amendment, requiring bonding metal studs. The local amendment thing is a big part of the problem. You say "my county" but how many other jurisdictions exist inside that county and what have they amended the code to say? Contractors tip toe around a mine field of local amendments that may change every time they cross a city or county border. For Example, Does Chesapeake Beach have a building department? Do they have their own amendments to the code? Chesapeake Beach has a mayor and council, but as far as I know depends upon the county for permits, schools, et cetera, although I do remember reading something about a zoning permit problem for some sort of celebration years ago. Depends upon the county for police, too. My guess is that none of the little towns or census places in this county have any substantial governmental operations. What we do have are some really interesting contemporary and historical residents. That is the kind of thing that makes life confusing. Little towns like that can easily decide that they want their own building department and a kingdom is born It's not confusing. If you need a permit you contact the county permit office in prince Frederick. |
A sure sign that solar power is becoming practical...
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