"F.O.A.D." wrote:
On 7/29/13 7:50 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 17:34:59 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 7/29/13 5:25 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 12:50:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 7/29/13 12:41 PM, wrote:


If a DIY guy buys all listed equipment, gets engineering for the panel
installation, pulls permits and has everything inspected, he still
will not get the 30% federal tax credit or the state rebate because he
needs a licensed installer according to the law.


Good.


Yup, **** saving the planet, you just want to save the jobs of your
union buddies.


Certainly, and I also want to be more assured that neighborhoods aren't
threatened by homebrew amateur electricians who think they know what
they are doing and don't, and string together wires or connections in a
manner that electrocutes people or starts fires.

You, on the other hand, want to cut the pay of anyone who trained and
worked hard to earn a living.

What part of "Permitted and Inspected" are you missing?

I could show you some of the shoddy work those "trained", "hard
working" licensed electricians try to get by inspectors.


Well, then, you are too familiar with shoddy contractors and perhaps
shoddy inspectors. The guys who came out to inspect my generator
installation (gas and electric) spent considerable time here looking over
all the work of the gas and electric contractors, talking to them, and
checking every fitting and connection, including the 100+ feet of copper
plumbing from the tank to the generator, the vent away from the
generator, and every bit of the old panels and new panel. My recollection
is that the electrical inspector was here for at least an hour. The gas
inspector came twice, once to examine the fittings and the plumbing in
its ditch, and again at generator start up.

I was in south Florida on assignment for a client for two months after
Hurricane Andrew and was astonished at the evidence of really shoddy
construction and bad inspections allowed, even in commerical
construction. Is Florida still a state where that happens?

Bull. My son in law is an OSHPD inspector. Hospitals hire reputable
contractors and they are avoiding code a lot of the time. Why my son in
law has a really nice profession. If these people are so well trained, why
do you need an inspector.

In article 93368714396889728.895218bmckeenospam-
, says...

"F.O.A.D." wrote:
On 7/29/13 7:50 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 17:34:59 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 7/29/13 5:25 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 12:50:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 7/29/13 12:41 PM, wrote:


If a DIY guy buys all listed equipment, gets engineering for the panel
installation, pulls permits and has everything inspected, he still
will not get the 30% federal tax credit or the state rebate because he
needs a licensed installer according to the law.


Good.


Yup, **** saving the planet, you just want to save the jobs of your
union buddies.


Certainly, and I also want to be more assured that neighborhoods aren't
threatened by homebrew amateur electricians who think they know what
they are doing and don't, and string together wires or connections in a
manner that electrocutes people or starts fires.

You, on the other hand, want to cut the pay of anyone who trained and
worked hard to earn a living.

What part of "Permitted and Inspected" are you missing?

I could show you some of the shoddy work those "trained", "hard
working" licensed electricians try to get by inspectors.


Well, then, you are too familiar with shoddy contractors and perhaps
shoddy inspectors. The guys who came out to inspect my generator
installation (gas and electric) spent considerable time here looking over
all the work of the gas and electric contractors, talking to them, and
checking every fitting and connection, including the 100+ feet of copper
plumbing from the tank to the generator, the vent away from the
generator, and every bit of the old panels and new panel. My recollection
is that the electrical inspector was here for at least an hour. The gas
inspector came twice, once to examine the fittings and the plumbing in
its ditch, and again at generator start up.

I was in south Florida on assignment for a client for two months after
Hurricane Andrew and was astonished at the evidence of really shoddy
construction and bad inspections allowed, even in commerical
construction. Is Florida still a state where that happens?

Bull. My son in law is an OSHPD inspector. Hospitals hire reputable
contractors and they are avoiding code a lot of the time. Why my son in
law has a really nice profession. If these people are so well trained, why
do you need an inspector.

It is bull****. I'd like to see specifically what shoddy workmanship
he's talking about. Florida's building code is very comprehensive and
quite stringent.

iBoaterer wrote:
In article 93368714396889728.895218bmckeenospam-
, says...

"F.O.A.D." wrote:
On 7/29/13 7:50 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 17:34:59 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 7/29/13 5:25 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 12:50:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 7/29/13 12:41 PM, wrote:


If a DIY guy buys all listed equipment, gets engineering for the panel
installation, pulls permits and has everything inspected, he still
will not get the 30% federal tax credit or the state rebate because he
needs a licensed installer according to the law.


Good.


Yup, **** saving the planet, you just want to save the jobs of your
union buddies.


Certainly, and I also want to be more assured that neighborhoods aren't
threatened by homebrew amateur electricians who think they know what
they are doing and don't, and string together wires or connections in a
manner that electrocutes people or starts fires.

You, on the other hand, want to cut the pay of anyone who trained and
worked hard to earn a living.

What part of "Permitted and Inspected" are you missing?

I could show you some of the shoddy work those "trained", "hard
working" licensed electricians try to get by inspectors.


Well, then, you are too familiar with shoddy contractors and perhaps
shoddy inspectors. The guys who came out to inspect my generator
installation (gas and electric) spent considerable time here looking over
all the work of the gas and electric contractors, talking to them, and
checking every fitting and connection, including the 100+ feet of copper
plumbing from the tank to the generator, the vent away from the
generator, and every bit of the old panels and new panel. My recollection
is that the electrical inspector was here for at least an hour. The gas
inspector came twice, once to examine the fittings and the plumbing in
its ditch, and again at generator start up.

I was in south Florida on assignment for a client for two months after
Hurricane Andrew and was astonished at the evidence of really shoddy
construction and bad inspections allowed, even in commerical
construction. Is Florida still a state where that happens?

Bull. My son in law is an OSHPD inspector. Hospitals hire reputable
contractors and they are avoiding code a lot of the time. Why my son in
law has a really nice profession. If these people are so well trained, why
do you need an inspector.

It is bull****. I'd like to see specifically what shoddy workmanship
he's talking about. Florida's building code is very comprehensive and
quite stringent.

My son in law makes sure they follow the building codes. And the codes he
enforces are a lot tougher than Florida's. they are for building
hospitals.

On 7/30/13 11:12 AM, Califbill wrote:
"F.O.A.D." wrote:
On 7/29/13 7:50 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 17:34:59 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 7/29/13 5:25 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 12:50:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 7/29/13 12:41 PM, wrote:


If a DIY guy buys all listed equipment, gets engineering for the panel
installation, pulls permits and has everything inspected, he still
will not get the 30% federal tax credit or the state rebate because he
needs a licensed installer according to the law.


Good.


Yup, **** saving the planet, you just want to save the jobs of your
union buddies.


Certainly, and I also want to be more assured that neighborhoods aren't
threatened by homebrew amateur electricians who think they know what
they are doing and don't, and string together wires or connections in a
manner that electrocutes people or starts fires.

You, on the other hand, want to cut the pay of anyone who trained and
worked hard to earn a living.

What part of "Permitted and Inspected" are you missing?

I could show you some of the shoddy work those "trained", "hard
working" licensed electricians try to get by inspectors.


Well, then, you are too familiar with shoddy contractors and perhaps
shoddy inspectors. The guys who came out to inspect my generator
installation (gas and electric) spent considerable time here looking over
all the work of the gas and electric contractors, talking to them, and
checking every fitting and connection, including the 100+ feet of copper
plumbing from the tank to the generator, the vent away from the
generator, and every bit of the old panels and new panel. My recollection
is that the electrical inspector was here for at least an hour. The gas
inspector came twice, once to examine the fittings and the plumbing in
its ditch, and again at generator start up.

I was in south Florida on assignment for a client for two months after
Hurricane Andrew and was astonished at the evidence of really shoddy
construction and bad inspections allowed, even in commerical
construction. Is Florida still a state where that happens?

Bull. My son in law is an OSHPD inspector. Hospitals hire reputable
contractors and they are avoiding code a lot of the time. Why my son in
law has a really nice profession. If these people are so well trained, why
do you need an inspector.



So your son in law will have a nice job.

On 7/30/13 12:31 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 10:12:11 -0500, Califbill
wrote:

"F.O.A.D." wrote:


I was in south Florida on assignment for a client for two months after
Hurricane Andrew and was astonished at the evidence of really shoddy
construction and bad inspections allowed, even in commerical
construction. Is Florida still a state where that happens?

Bull. My son in law is an OSHPD inspector. Hospitals hire reputable
contractors and they are avoiding code a lot of the time. Why my son in
law has a really nice profession. If these people are so well trained, why
do you need an inspector.

It is interesting that Harry brought this up. Maryland does not have a
uniform electrical code, any municipality can pretty much approve or
exempt anything they want (the AHJ is king of his patch) and there is
no state licensing of inspectors.
Some places might have basic requirements and across the street, the
inspector might just be the mayor's out of work brother in law (like
it was in Florida 25 years ago).
Contractor licensing looks pretty rudimentary too. (a 4 hour test and
pay the fees)
I did not see any continuing education requirements.



My county uses "the National Electrical Code, as
amended, which sets standards for and provides for the inspection of,
inspection procedures, permit requirements of the installation,
alteration, repair, servicing, and maintenance of electrical
wiring and equipment and interpretation of the Electrical Code."

What does your county use? The "brother in law knows wiring" code?

In article ,
says...

On 7/30/13 12:31 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 10:12:11 -0500, Califbill
wrote:

"F.O.A.D." wrote:


I was in south Florida on assignment for a client for two months after
Hurricane Andrew and was astonished at the evidence of really shoddy
construction and bad inspections allowed, even in commerical
construction. Is Florida still a state where that happens?

Bull. My son in law is an OSHPD inspector. Hospitals hire reputable
contractors and they are avoiding code a lot of the time. Why my son in
law has a really nice profession. If these people are so well trained, why
do you need an inspector.

It is interesting that Harry brought this up. Maryland does not have a
uniform electrical code, any municipality can pretty much approve or
exempt anything they want (the AHJ is king of his patch) and there is
no state licensing of inspectors.
Some places might have basic requirements and across the street, the
inspector might just be the mayor's out of work brother in law (like
it was in Florida 25 years ago).
Contractor licensing looks pretty rudimentary too. (a 4 hour test and
pay the fees)
I did not see any continuing education requirements.



My county uses "the National Electrical Code, as
amended, which sets standards for and provides for the inspection of,
inspection procedures, permit requirements of the installation,
alteration, repair, servicing, and maintenance of electrical
wiring and equipment and interpretation of the Electrical Code."

What does your county use? The "brother in law knows wiring" code?

That in no way means that the inspectors adhere to said code.

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

On 7/30/13 12:31 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 10:12:11 -0500, Califbill
wrote:

"F.O.A.D." wrote:


I was in south Florida on assignment for a client for two months
after
Hurricane Andrew and was astonished at the evidence of really
shoddy
construction and bad inspections allowed, even in commerical
construction. Is Florida still a state where that happens?

Bull. My son in law is an OSHPD inspector. Hospitals hire
reputable
contractors and they are avoiding code a lot of the time. Why my
son in
law has a really nice profession. If these people are so well
trained, why
do you need an inspector.

It is interesting that Harry brought this up. Maryland does not
have a
uniform electrical code, any municipality can pretty much approve
or
exempt anything they want (the AHJ is king of his patch) and
there is
no state licensing of inspectors.
Some places might have basic requirements and across the street,
the
inspector might just be the mayor's out of work brother in law
(like
it was in Florida 25 years ago).
Contractor licensing looks pretty rudimentary too. (a 4 hour test
and
pay the fees)
I did not see any continuing education requirements.



My county uses "the National Electrical Code, as
amended, which sets standards for and provides for the inspection
of,
inspection procedures, permit requirements of the installation,
alteration, repair, servicing, and maintenance of electrical
wiring and equipment and interpretation of the Electrical Code."

What does your county use? The "brother in law knows wiring" code?

That in no way means that the inspectors adhere to said code.

--------------------------------

I haven't read the NEC book for several years but I think it used to
have a statement in the preface to the effect of, "local codes and/or
ordinances supersede these requirements" or something like that.

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

On 7/30/13 12:31 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 10:12:11 -0500, Califbill
wrote:

"F.O.A.D." wrote:


I was in south Florida on assignment for a client for two months
after
Hurricane Andrew and was astonished at the evidence of really
shoddy
construction and bad inspections allowed, even in commerical
construction. Is Florida still a state where that happens?

Bull. My son in law is an OSHPD inspector. Hospitals hire
reputable
contractors and they are avoiding code a lot of the time. Why my
son in
law has a really nice profession. If these people are so well
trained, why
do you need an inspector.

It is interesting that Harry brought this up. Maryland does not
have a
uniform electrical code, any municipality can pretty much approve
or
exempt anything they want (the AHJ is king of his patch) and
there is
no state licensing of inspectors.
Some places might have basic requirements and across the street,
the
inspector might just be the mayor's out of work brother in law
(like
it was in Florida 25 years ago).
Contractor licensing looks pretty rudimentary too. (a 4 hour test
and
pay the fees)
I did not see any continuing education requirements.



My county uses "the National Electrical Code, as
amended, which sets standards for and provides for the inspection
of,
inspection procedures, permit requirements of the installation,
alteration, repair, servicing, and maintenance of electrical
wiring and equipment and interpretation of the Electrical Code."

What does your county use? The "brother in law knows wiring" code?

That in no way means that the inspectors adhere to said code.

--------------------------------

I haven't read the NEC book for several years but I think it used to
have a statement in the preface to the effect of, "local codes and/or
ordinances supersede these requirements" or something like that.

Yes, and always has. For instance many states use the I.B.C. building
code, but many states also have amendments to that code. Then some have
their own code but now days it is based on the I.B.C. Of course, then
the IBC references others such as ACI and AISC. Then if the building is
commercial or industrial, etc. you have OSHA. And now everyone wants
their buildings LEED certifiable.

On 7/30/13 12:31 PM, wrote:

"F.O.A.D." wrote:


My county uses "the National Electrical Code, as
amended, which sets standards for and provides for the inspection
of,
inspection procedures, permit requirements of the installation,
alteration, repair, servicing, and maintenance of electrical
wiring and equipment and interpretation of the Electrical Code."

What does your county use? The "brother in law knows wiring" code?


That in no way means that the inspectors adhere to said code.

------------------------------------

The equipment I was involved with building consisted of large,
stainless steel vacuum vessels with complex electrical controls, high
voltage power supplies and other process related electronics. The
technical proposals that we would submit were required to cite the
applicable codes to be used in it's design and construction,
especially for government projects. Problem is that in many cases
there were no codes that covered certain aspects of the system. For
example, the structural design of the chamber in terms of stresses,
etc., are not covered in the ASME codes which are designed for
pressure vessels, not vacuum. As a result, a 100 lb valve would be
mounted on a standard ASME flange with about 14, three quarter inch
bolts holding it on. Just a little overkill in terms of structural
strength and cost.

Same with many components used in the electrical design. The NEC code
has absolutely nothing in it that addresses high voltage electron beam
guns or power supplies.

I modified our code "cite" page to include the following statement:
"When the requirements of the system conflicts with any codes, the
system requirements shall apply".

wrote in message ...

On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 13:53:21 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

Same with many components used in the electrical design. The NEC
code
has absolutely nothing in it that addresses high voltage electron
beam
guns or power supplies.

They deal with that by requiring that installed equipment shall be
listed by a NRTL like U/L.. Then the inspector only checks to see that
it was installed according to manufacturer instructions.

The reality is after the building final , once you get inside the
warehouse and shut the door, you are on your own. It is between you,
OSHA and the fire marshal.

-----------------------------------------

We only had one instance where a city required that a system we built
be U/L certified or inspected. It was years ago and involved the old
Bell and Howell company who had a facility in Chicago, about a mile
from the airport. Our contract did not contain any U/L certification
requirements but the local electrical inspector sprang it on both Bell
and Howell and us after the system was built but before the city would
issue a permit for it's installation.

We ended up negotiating an acceptable inspection process with the U/L
guy (different inspector) that satisfied everyone. On our end, we
provided U/L certs for as many of the components we used that were
available from the manufacturer. Items that were unique to the
industry or entirely designed and made by my company were exempt,
although I had to explain to the inspector what they were and what
they did. He asked us to replace one simple and relatively
inexpensive solenoid valve with a similar type that a U/L cert was
readily available. The inspector told me it was basically for
paperwork purposes to prove he did his job.

I suspect that now-a-days the requirements are more stringent, plus
the unique industry I was in has further matured, so there probably
are now codes and either U/L or CE certs available for most
components.