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On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 3:23:55 PM UTC-4, iBoaterer wrote:
In article , says... On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:54:07 AM UTC-4, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... There must be some reason that nearly every track record is held by a 4 wheeled vehicle. Cite? Barcelona 2005 Formula One - Fisicella's Renault - 1:15.641 fast lap. MotoGP - Gibernau's Honda - 1:42.337 fast lap. PHILLIP ISLAND GRAND PRIX CIRCUIT LAP RECORDS OUTRIGHT SIMON WILLS REYNARD 94D 13/02/2000 1.24.2215 FORMULA 4000 SIMON WILLS REYNARD 94D 13/02/2000 1.24.2215 PHILLIP ISLAND GRAND PRIX CIRCUIT MOTORCYCLE LAP RECORDS MotoGP Marco Melandri (Ita) Honda RC211V 1:30.332 16-Oct-05 Pole : Nicky Hayden (USA) Honda RC211V 1:29.020 16-Sep-06 A couple of results from a quick google. You can do the rest of the work. Pretty much the only tracks where you'll find faster times for bikes are the tracks specifically designed for bikes. Cars obviously enjoy enough of an advantage from their superior traction, brakes and downforce that it negates the bike's advantage of less mass and better power/weight ratio. Not by a lot, but 6 - 27 seconds (the diff in the examples above) is a lot on a track. Have fun. Let's see. All tracks made exclusively with cars in mind. Tracks that have taken special pains to cater to a bikes special needs are faster for bike. Take that advantage away, and the car is faster. Now, how about REAL cites? How about the physics behind your ASSumptions? Superior downforce??? You DO realize, don't you, that a motorcycle, when it leans INTO the curve is keeping it's CG in line with the forces, while a car isn't, correct? You do realize that the CG of the bike, when leaning into a turn, is attempting to push the tire ACROSS the pavement at the angle of the lean? Meanwhile the car's down force is pushing the tire directly down into the pavement. Keeping the downforce perpendicular is a good thing. Besides, the bike couldn't corner if it didn't lean to keep the CG in line with the cornering force... that's what keeps it from flipping over. That's also what causes the increase of slip angle and traction loss. |
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On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 14:07:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 3:23:55 PM UTC-4, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:54:07 AM UTC-4, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... There must be some reason that nearly every track record is held by a 4 wheeled vehicle. Cite? Barcelona 2005 Formula One - Fisicella's Renault - 1:15.641 fast lap. MotoGP - Gibernau's Honda - 1:42.337 fast lap. PHILLIP ISLAND GRAND PRIX CIRCUIT LAP RECORDS OUTRIGHT SIMON WILLS REYNARD 94D 13/02/2000 1.24.2215 FORMULA 4000 SIMON WILLS REYNARD 94D 13/02/2000 1.24.2215 PHILLIP ISLAND GRAND PRIX CIRCUIT MOTORCYCLE LAP RECORDS MotoGP Marco Melandri (Ita) Honda RC211V 1:30.332 16-Oct-05 Pole : Nicky Hayden (USA) Honda RC211V 1:29.020 16-Sep-06 A couple of results from a quick google. You can do the rest of the work. Pretty much the only tracks where you'll find faster times for bikes are the tracks specifically designed for bikes. Cars obviously enjoy enough of an advantage from their superior traction, brakes and downforce that it negates the bike's advantage of less mass and better power/weight ratio. Not by a lot, but 6 - 27 seconds (the diff in the examples above) is a lot on a track. Have fun. Let's see. All tracks made exclusively with cars in mind. Tracks that have taken special pains to cater to a bikes special needs are faster for bike. Take that advantage away, and the car is faster. Now, how about REAL cites? How about the physics behind your ASSumptions? Superior downforce??? You DO realize, don't you, that a motorcycle, when it leans INTO the curve is keeping it's CG in line with the forces, while a car isn't, correct? You do realize that the CG of the bike, when leaning into a turn, is attempting to push the tire ACROSS the pavement at the angle of the lean? Meanwhile the car's down force is pushing the tire directly down into the pavement. Keeping the downforce perpendicular is a good thing. Besides, the bike couldn't corner if it didn't lean to keep the CG in line with the cornering force... that's what keeps it from flipping over. That's also what causes the increase of slip angle and traction loss. One of my brothers was a motorcycle cop in Richland, WA. He was chasing a car through a residential area, the car making turns almost every block. He wasn't able to outrun it, but he was able to keep pretty close. And then they went around a corner where the homeowner's sprinkler was wetting the street. Down he went. John H. -- Hope you're having a great day! |
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On 6/11/2013 5:07 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 3:23:55 PM UTC-4, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:54:07 AM UTC-4, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... There must be some reason that nearly every track record is held by a 4 wheeled vehicle. Cite? Barcelona 2005 Formula One - Fisicella's Renault - 1:15.641 fast lap. MotoGP - Gibernau's Honda - 1:42.337 fast lap. PHILLIP ISLAND GRAND PRIX CIRCUIT LAP RECORDS OUTRIGHT SIMON WILLS REYNARD 94D 13/02/2000 1.24.2215 FORMULA 4000 SIMON WILLS REYNARD 94D 13/02/2000 1.24.2215 PHILLIP ISLAND GRAND PRIX CIRCUIT MOTORCYCLE LAP RECORDS MotoGP Marco Melandri (Ita) Honda RC211V 1:30.332 16-Oct-05 Pole : Nicky Hayden (USA) Honda RC211V 1:29.020 16-Sep-06 A couple of results from a quick google. You can do the rest of the work. Pretty much the only tracks where you'll find faster times for bikes are the tracks specifically designed for bikes. Cars obviously enjoy enough of an advantage from their superior traction, brakes and downforce that it negates the bike's advantage of less mass and better power/weight ratio. Not by a lot, but 6 - 27 seconds (the diff in the examples above) is a lot on a track. Have fun. Let's see. All tracks made exclusively with cars in mind. Tracks that have taken special pains to cater to a bikes special needs are faster for bike. Take that advantage away, and the car is faster. Now, how about REAL cites? How about the physics behind your ASSumptions? Superior downforce??? You DO realize, don't you, that a motorcycle, when it leans INTO the curve is keeping it's CG in line with the forces, while a car isn't, correct? You do realize that the CG of the bike, when leaning into a turn, is attempting to push the tire ACROSS the pavement at the angle of the lean? Meanwhile the car's down force is pushing the tire directly down into the pavement. Keeping the downforce perpendicular is a good thing. Besides, the bike couldn't corner if it didn't lean to keep the CG in line with the cornering force... that's what keeps it from flipping over. That's also what causes the increase of slip angle and traction loss. On the street they lean inside in an attempt to keep the bike itself as upright as it can be. They lean so far over the inside they often drag their knee. In the dirt it's exactly opposite. we sit on top of the bike in the corner leaning the bike onto the sidewall which also has grip... This way we try to keep our weight downward as much as possible... Here is a pic: http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=motocross+corner+form&FORM=HDRSC2#view=de tail&id=C38AB0076CA6A392D9B898A37782E321807CB0AB&s electedIndex=29 Another little factoid.. The inside foot is not out to drag in MX, it's thrown way forward to 1, keep it from dragging on the ground. 2 to put that extra 15 pounds of foot, boot, and leg, up front to distribute more rider weight forward toward the front axle... |
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On 6/11/2013 5:19 PM, JustWaitAFrekinMinute wrote:
On 6/11/2013 5:07 PM, wrote: On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 3:23:55 PM UTC-4, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:54:07 AM UTC-4, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... There must be some reason that nearly every track record is held by a 4 wheeled vehicle. Cite? Barcelona 2005 Formula One - Fisicella's Renault - 1:15.641 fast lap. MotoGP - Gibernau's Honda - 1:42.337 fast lap. PHILLIP ISLAND GRAND PRIX CIRCUIT LAP RECORDS OUTRIGHT SIMON WILLS REYNARD 94D 13/02/2000 1.24.2215 FORMULA 4000 SIMON WILLS REYNARD 94D 13/02/2000 1.24.2215 PHILLIP ISLAND GRAND PRIX CIRCUIT MOTORCYCLE LAP RECORDS MotoGP Marco Melandri (Ita) Honda RC211V 1:30.332 16-Oct-05 Pole : Nicky Hayden (USA) Honda RC211V 1:29.020 16-Sep-06 A couple of results from a quick google. You can do the rest of the work. Pretty much the only tracks where you'll find faster times for bikes are the tracks specifically designed for bikes. Cars obviously enjoy enough of an advantage from their superior traction, brakes and downforce that it negates the bike's advantage of less mass and better power/weight ratio. Not by a lot, but 6 - 27 seconds (the diff in the examples above) is a lot on a track. Have fun. Let's see. All tracks made exclusively with cars in mind. Tracks that have taken special pains to cater to a bikes special needs are faster for bike. Take that advantage away, and the car is faster. Now, how about REAL cites? How about the physics behind your ASSumptions? Superior downforce??? You DO realize, don't you, that a motorcycle, when it leans INTO the curve is keeping it's CG in line with the forces, while a car isn't, correct? You do realize that the CG of the bike, when leaning into a turn, is attempting to push the tire ACROSS the pavement at the angle of the lean? Meanwhile the car's down force is pushing the tire directly down into the pavement. Keeping the downforce perpendicular is a good thing. Besides, the bike couldn't corner if it didn't lean to keep the CG in line with the cornering force... that's what keeps it from flipping over. That's also what causes the increase of slip angle and traction loss. On the street they lean inside in an attempt to keep the bike itself as upright as it can be. They lean so far over the inside they often drag their knee. In the dirt it's exactly opposite. we sit on top of the bike in the corner leaning the bike onto the sidewall which also has grip... This way we try to keep our weight downward as much as possible... Here is a pic: http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=motocross+corner+form&FORM=HDRSC2#view=de tail&id=C38AB0076CA6A392D9B898A37782E321807CB0AB&s electedIndex=29 Another little factoid.. The inside foot is not out to drag in MX, it's thrown way forward to 1, keep it from dragging on the ground. 2 to put that extra 15 pounds of foot, boot, and leg, up front to distribute more rider weight forward toward the front axle... Here is a better example of why that inside foot can't stay on the peg and must go forward..: http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=motocross+corner+positition&qs=n&form=QBI R&pq=motocross+corner+positition&sc=0-17&sp=-1&sk=#view=detail&id=99B32D5EC7AD33A7B347EE76BD6A5 815FECC62BD&selectedIndex=1 If he tried to leave it on the peg, he would leave it in the corner:) |
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Back to the Dakota..
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In article ,
says... On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 3:23:55 PM UTC-4, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:54:07 AM UTC-4, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... There must be some reason that nearly every track record is held by a 4 wheeled vehicle. Cite? Barcelona 2005 Formula One - Fisicella's Renault - 1:15.641 fast lap. MotoGP - Gibernau's Honda - 1:42.337 fast lap. PHILLIP ISLAND GRAND PRIX CIRCUIT LAP RECORDS OUTRIGHT SIMON WILLS REYNARD 94D 13/02/2000 1.24.2215 FORMULA 4000 SIMON WILLS REYNARD 94D 13/02/2000 1.24.2215 PHILLIP ISLAND GRAND PRIX CIRCUIT MOTORCYCLE LAP RECORDS MotoGP Marco Melandri (Ita) Honda RC211V 1:30.332 16-Oct-05 Pole : Nicky Hayden (USA) Honda RC211V 1:29.020 16-Sep-06 A couple of results from a quick google. You can do the rest of the work. Pretty much the only tracks where you'll find faster times for bikes are the tracks specifically designed for bikes. Cars obviously enjoy enough of an advantage from their superior traction, brakes and downforce that it negates the bike's advantage of less mass and better power/weight ratio. Not by a lot, but 6 - 27 seconds (the diff in the examples above) is a lot on a track. Have fun. Let's see. All tracks made exclusively with cars in mind. Tracks that have taken special pains to cater to a bikes special needs are faster for bike. Take that advantage away, and the car is faster. Now, how about REAL cites? How about the physics behind your ASSumptions? Superior downforce??? You DO realize, don't you, that a motorcycle, when it leans INTO the curve is keeping it's CG in line with the forces, while a car isn't, correct? You do realize that the CG of the bike, when leaning into a turn, is attempting to push the tire ACROSS the pavement at the angle of the lean? Meanwhile the car's down force is pushing the tire directly down into the pavement. Keeping the downforce perpendicular is a good thing. Besides, the bike couldn't corner if it didn't lean to keep the CG in line with the cornering force... that's what keeps it from flipping over. That's also what causes the increase of slip angle and traction loss. Okay, time for a simple physcis lesson, let's start with vector mechanics, shall we? An object in motion tends to stay in motion AND tends to stay in a straight line. For a simple demonstration of this, take two strings, both say a foot long. Attach a one ounce ball to one of them, and a 5 ounce ball to the other. Then swing them in a circle and see which one takes the most effort on your part to hold on to. This is an example of mass and velocity trying to keep those balls in a straight line and you are having to restrain them from doing so by holding the string. Force equals mass times acceleration. Simple as that. What has more mass, the motorcycle or the car that weighs 4 times as much? The car at the same speed has 4 times the force and this force wants to stay in a straight line. So, it takes 4 times the resistance to achieve this. The only thing affecting this is the tire coefficent of friction. Therefore the car has to have enough surface area, and friction ability to to overcome 4 times the force. NOW we have the problem of the car being at a much higher center of gravity vertically. While the motorcycle's CG changes to be more inline with the force vector, the cars remains unchanged and is not as near to in line with the vector as the motorcycle's? |
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