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First recorded activity by BoatBanter: Mar 2013
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In article ,
says...

On Thu, 2 May 2013 13:27:31 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 2 May 2013 09:04:44 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 1 May 2013 16:53:21 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

Which addition of the code is this in and what section? Does it specify
that the addendum was because of CFL's?

What are you talking about?

The required neutral is specified in NFPA70 (NEC) article 404.2(C).

This came about because the 2 wire devices do not work with LEDs and
CFLs. They work OK with incandescents.
You need a neutral for a 3 wire device and these electronic bulbs
require a 3 wire switching device of you want automatic operation.

That automatic control ends up being encouraged by several energy
codes including the ICC codes and LEEDs.

Some of the ICC references for occupancy sensors


505.2.1.1 Classrooms and meeting rooms.
A control device shall be installed in classrooms (except shop
classrooms, laboratory classrooms, and preschool through 12th grade
classrooms), conference/meeting rooms and employee lunch and break
rooms that automatically turns lighting off within 30 minutes of all
occupants leaving a space. These spaces are not required to be
connected to other automatic lighting shutoff controls.

05.2.2 Automatic lighting shutoff.
Buildings larger than 5,000 square feet (465 m2) shall be equipped
with an automatic control device to shut off lighting in those areas.
This automatic control device shall function on either:
1. A scheduled basis, using time-of-day, with an independent program
schedule that controls the interior lighting in areas that do not
exceed 25,000 square feet (2323 m2) and are not more than one floor;
or
2. An occupant sensor that shall turn lighting off within 30 minutes
of an occupant leaving a space; or



505.2.1.2 All other spaces.
Each control device shall be activated either manually by an occupant
or automatically by sensing an occupant and be capable of overriding
any time-of-day scheduled shut-off control for no more than four hours
in accordance with Section 505.2.2.1. Spatial control shall be limited
as shown in Table 505.2.1.2:


Folks out there in the Peoples Republic of California have even
stricter "Title 24" requirements.
The familiar T12 florescent tube has been banned for years.

And has NOTHING to do with CFL's. NOTHING.

The code also says 50% of the lighting has to be high efficiency (CFL
or LED) and that includes residential

This is true and totally a different subject. What I asked how does the
code passages you've provided have anything to do with CFL's
specifically.

The code sections mandate electronic switching devices and they will
require that 3d wire we were talking about.
Try to keep up

There is NOTHING, and I repeat NOTHING in the code exclusive to CFL's OR
anything that is a direct cause of CFL's. NOTHING.
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Default Funny Stuff
On Friday, May 3, 2013 9:50:30 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 3 May 2013 09:45:14 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:



In article ,

says...



On Thu, 2 May 2013 16:58:12 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:



In article ,

says...





The code sections mandate electronic switching devices and they will

require that 3d wire we were talking about.

Try to keep up



There is NOTHING, and I repeat NOTHING in the code exclusive to CFL's OR

anything that is a direct cause of CFL's. NOTHING.



Bull****. If you could still use incandescents the 2 wire occupancy

detectors would work fine. The energy code mandates CFLs or LEDS, the

government is phasing out incandescents as we speak and the only

answer is a 3 wire device.



Bull****. You can not, have not and will not show me ANYTHING in the

current codes that mandate 3 wire occupancy detectors because of CFL's.



They work fine with incandescents. They don't work with CFLs or LEDs.

What else do you need to know.

2+2 is not his strong point.
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First recorded activity by BoatBanter: Mar 2013
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Default Funny Stuff
In article ,
says...

On Fri, 3 May 2013 13:03:37 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 3 May 2013 09:45:14 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 2 May 2013 16:58:12 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...


The code sections mandate electronic switching devices and they will
require that 3d wire we were talking about.
Try to keep up

There is NOTHING, and I repeat NOTHING in the code exclusive to CFL's OR
anything that is a direct cause of CFL's. NOTHING.

Bull****. If you could still use incandescents the 2 wire occupancy
detectors would work fine. The energy code mandates CFLs or LEDS, the
government is phasing out incandescents as we speak and the only
answer is a 3 wire device.

Bull****. You can not, have not and will not show me ANYTHING in the
current codes that mandate 3 wire occupancy detectors because of CFL's.

They work fine with incandescents. They don't work with CFLs or LEDs.
What else do you need to know.

So..... you are saying the only reason for the code change is because of
CFL's and LED's???? Really?



The code says "to provide for a neutral conductor to complete the
circuit for electronic lighting controls". That is not necessary if
you have an incandescent load. Maybe you are just to dumb to make the
connection or you are just ****ing with me for some personal reason
but I am done.

None of the above. Your notion that it's just for CFL's and LED's is
bull**** and further, you know it is! As you say, it is "to provide for
a neutral conductor..." It isn't "necessary" for a CFL any more than it
is for an incandescent light! Period. And you can't show me how/where it
is, because it isn't happening.
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First recorded activity by BoatBanter: Mar 2013
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Default Funny Stuff
In article ,
says...

On Fri, 3 May 2013 14:34:21 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

The code says "to provide for a neutral conductor to complete the
circuit for electronic lighting controls". That is not necessary if
you have an incandescent load. Maybe you are just to dumb to make the
connection or you are just ****ing with me for some personal reason
but I am done.

None of the above. Your notion that it's just for CFL's and LED's is
bull**** and further, you know it is! As you say, it is "to provide for
a neutral conductor..." It isn't "necessary" for a CFL any more than it
is for an incandescent light! Period. And you can't show me how/where it
is, because it isn't happening.

I have a half dozen 2 wire occupancy sensors working fine on
incandescents without a neutral. None work with a CFL or LED.
Why is that so hard for you to understand?

It's not hard for me to understand, and you are changing yet again. YOU
said that the code was changed BECAUSE OF CFL's AND LED's. That is not
true.


Perhaps because you are in
beyond your depth.

See above. It's you that's in above your head. I've asked and asked to
show me where in the code, OR even in code comments it says that they
went to three wire because of CFL's. You can't because it's not true.

I suppose I could go to the manufacturer web site and see where they
verify my result but why bother. You would quibble with their language
too.

It would have NOTHING to do with code issues as you stated but now
somehow don't.


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First recorded activity by BoatBanter: Feb 2013
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On 5/3/13 4:24 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Fri, 3 May 2013 14:34:21 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
 says...

The code says "to provide for a neutral conductor to complete the
circuit for electronic lighting controls". That is not necessary if
you have an incandescent load. Maybe you are just to dumb to make the
connection or you are just ****ing with me for some personal reason
but I am done.

None of the above. Your notion that it's just for CFL's and LED's is
bull**** and further, you know it is! As you say, it is "to provide for
a neutral conductor..." It isn't "necessary" for a CFL any more than it
is for an incandescent light! Period. And you can't show me how/where it
is, because it isn't happening.

I have a half dozen 2 wire occupancy sensors working fine on
incandescents without a neutral. None work with a CFL or LED.
Why is that so hard for you to understand?

It's not hard for me to understand, and you are changing yet again. YOU
said that the code was changed BECAUSE OF CFL's AND LED's. That is not
true.


Perhaps because you are in
beyond your depth.

See above. It's you that's in above your head. I've asked and asked to
show me where in the code, OR even in code comments it says that they
went to three wire because of CFL's. You can't because it's not true.

I suppose I could go to the manufacturer web site and see where they
verify my result but why bother. You would quibble with their language
too.

It would have NOTHING to do with code issues as you stated but now
somehow don't.




You two have split the hairs down to atom size. Isn't there something
more interesting you can argue about with Greg over the course of 5,000
posts?
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First recorded activity by BoatBanter: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,637
Default Funny Stuff
On Fri, 03 May 2013 16:31:58 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 5/3/13 4:24 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Fri, 3 May 2013 14:34:21 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
 says...

The code says "to provide for a neutral conductor to complete the
circuit for electronic lighting controls". That is not necessary if
you have an incandescent load. Maybe you are just to dumb to make the
connection or you are just ****ing with me for some personal reason
but I am done.

None of the above. Your notion that it's just for CFL's and LED's is
bull**** and further, you know it is! As you say, it is "to provide for
a neutral conductor..." It isn't "necessary" for a CFL any more than it
is for an incandescent light! Period. And you can't show me how/where it
is, because it isn't happening.

I have a half dozen 2 wire occupancy sensors working fine on
incandescents without a neutral. None work with a CFL or LED.
Why is that so hard for you to understand?

It's not hard for me to understand, and you are changing yet again. YOU
said that the code was changed BECAUSE OF CFL's AND LED's. That is not
true.


Perhaps because you are in
beyond your depth.

See above. It's you that's in above your head. I've asked and asked to
show me where in the code, OR even in code comments it says that they
went to three wire because of CFL's. You can't because it's not true.

I suppose I could go to the manufacturer web site and see where they
verify my result but why bother. You would quibble with their language
too.

It would have NOTHING to do with code issues as you stated but now
somehow don't.




You two have split the hairs down to atom size. Isn't there something
more interesting you can argue about with Greg over the course of 5,000
posts?

Maybe they could argue about how many basketball players are still in the closet.

I say 12.

John H.
--

Hope you're having a great day!
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posted to rec.boats
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First recorded activity by BoatBanter: Mar 2013
Posts: 569
Default Funny Stuff
On 5/3/2013 4:31 PM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 5/3/13 4:24 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Fri, 3 May 2013 14:34:21 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
 says...

The code says "to provide for a neutral conductor to complete the
circuit for electronic lighting controls". That is not necessary if
you have an incandescent load. Maybe you are just to dumb to make the
connection or you are just ****ing with me for some personal reason
but I am done.

None of the above. Your notion that it's just for CFL's and LED's is
bull**** and further, you know it is! As you say, it is "to provide for
a neutral conductor..." It isn't "necessary" for a CFL any more than it
is for an incandescent light! Period. And you can't show me
how/where it
is, because it isn't happening.

I have a half dozen 2 wire occupancy sensors working fine on
incandescents without a neutral. None work with a CFL or LED.
Why is that so hard for you to understand?

It's not hard for me to understand, and you are changing yet again. YOU
said that the code was changed BECAUSE OF CFL's AND LED's. That is not
true.


Perhaps because you are in
beyond your depth.

See above. It's you that's in above your head. I've asked and asked to
show me where in the code, OR even in code comments it says that they
went to three wire because of CFL's. You can't because it's not true.

I suppose I could go to the manufacturer web site and see where they
verify my result but why bother. You would quibble with their language
too.

It would have NOTHING to do with code issues as you stated but now
somehow don't.




You two have split the hairs down to atom size. Isn't there something
more interesting you can argue about with Greg over the course of 5,000
posts?
Why don't you just kill the thread? You don't know what they are
talking about anyway.
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