In article ,
says...

On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:02:08 -0700, Urin Asshole
wrote:

The "medicare underpayments" are still OVER what the actual costs are,
and since medicare CANT negotiate, those costs can't be lower. That
would be a good first fix.

Maybe you are one of those Venus Project people who think we should do
away with money but as long as we have money, you need to pay more
than "cost" just to keep the wheels of commerce turning.
"Cost" for the MRI, still does not pay for keeping the building
running. At a certain point you are cutting the pay and benefits for
the workers who do that.
I agree they over use tests but as long as we have lawyers picking
apart every bad outcome, doctors are going to test everything they
think might insulate them from liability.

So.... You are okay with your insurance being charged $30.00 for a
Tylenol? $25.00 for a blanket which is used and washed to be re-used
over and over and can be bought online for $5.00? You do realize these
VERY excessive costs trickle down to the consumer, right?

On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:58:20 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:02:08 -0700, Urin Asshole
wrote:

The "medicare underpayments" are still OVER what the actual costs are,
and since medicare CANT negotiate, those costs can't be lower. That
would be a good first fix.

Maybe you are one of those Venus Project people who think we should do
away with money but as long as we have money, you need to pay more
than "cost" just to keep the wheels of commerce turning.
"Cost" for the MRI, still does not pay for keeping the building
running. At a certain point you are cutting the pay and benefits for
the workers who do that.

Huh? The cost of the building is built into the price that is figured
for making a profit. Hospitals are pushing MRIs that don't need to
happen and they are making huge money on the MRIs they have. Read the
****ing article.

I agree they over use tests but as long as we have lawyers picking
apart every bad outcome, doctors are going to test everything they
think might insulate them from liability.

And, yet again, read the ****ing article. Sure, some tort reform needs
to happen, but it's not the "lawyers" fault for all or most of the
medical cost explosion. It's an aspect, but it's mostly the profit
motive, lack of regulation, and inability to negotiate.

On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:12:20 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 08:13:26 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 3/12/13 10:15 PM, Urin Asshole wrote:
On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 21:25:24 -0400, wrote:


Are you trying to say the SSA trustees report is a lie?

I'm saying that when you say this **** "but I disagree that simply
putting everyone on Medicare would fix anything" you're making ****
up.

Do I need to tell you what page of the article we are talking about?

Start with the bold print "The way out of the sinkhole"

So, perhaps you need to read that section??

You mean this:

"I was driving through central Florida a year or two ago," says
Medicare's Blum. "And it seemed like every billboard I saw advertised
some hospital with these big shiny buildings or showed some new wing
of a hospital being constructed ... So when you tell me that the
hospitals say they are losing money on Medicare and shifting costs
from Medicare patients to other patients, my reaction is that Central
Florida is overflowing with Medicare patients and all those hospitals
are expanding and advertising for Medicare patients. So you can't tell
me they're losing money ... Hospitals don't lose money when they serve
Medicare patients."

Cost shifting is the name of *the* game in paying for medical care in
this country. Just about everyone in the game does it, too. Yesterday, I
was running errands and picked up an Rx for a neighbor who has the flu.
He is diabetic and takes insulin in those "handy" pen cartridges. The
full "price" of the Rx for a month's supply (one shot a day, three shots
per cartridge), was $800 and change. His co-pay amounted to about 20%,
and his insurance company paid the rest.

Now, you have to ask yourself, why is insulin so damned expensive? It's
not a new drug, it's been around for a long, long time. It's not the
packaging, the cartridges are no more complicated than a decent Pentel
plastic pen. The needles are sold separately. The answer is that
everyone along the way is making a huge profit off this relatively
simple but life extending drug, and that includes the neighbor's
insurance company.

You forgot the development/approval cost and the lawyer tax. It
probably cost $50 million just to get through FDA testing on the pen
and the first person to get a bad outcome will be suing for another
$50 million.

Bull****. You prefer to blame everyone except the right wingers and
the money that's in the poliitical system from the med lobby.

I can see the ad on TV "Did you use the insulin pen and suffer
anything bad at all? Call Dewey, Chetum and Howe. We have money for
you"

Your solution is to prevent people from being justly compensated. Why
don't you bring up the McDonnalds hot coffee case if you'd like to
look really stupid.

We do almost nothing in this country to actually control medical costs.
If Medicare "under-reimburses," those "lost profits" are assessed
against someone else, either an insurance company or an individual. The
insurance company covers its "losses" by overcharging its clients. In my
wife's field of psychotherapy, psychiatrists charge about $200 per
patient visit, and what do most of them do during that visit, which,
typically, lasts about 15 minutes? They try to find out if the meds they
are prescribing are "helping." They don't provide any therapy; that is
left to various non-medically-degreed mental health professionals. Ever
paid $20 for a Tylenol in a hospital? Or $15 for a package of facial
tissues? It's cost-shifting.

Some of that is simply the red tape required to meet all of the
compliance requirements. ALL drugs in a hospital have inventory
controls you would expect for tracking plutonium. Some of it is simply
to control theft but, again, a lot of it is to mitigate liability
The nurse can't simply go shake a tylenol out of the bottle and give
it to you. They need an order from a doctor, they log it out of the
pharmacy and track it from there to the patient's mouth.
Unfortunately they have similar BS for everything you get and
virtually nothing can be logged back into the system.
The last time I was in the hospital for an outpatient procedure they
issued me a pee bottle. I gave it back to them, still sealed in the
plastic. They said "keep it, we can't give that to another patient
now" It was about $20.

Yeah, a small part of it.

You accepted that $20 pee bottle without complaint right.. because
your insurance was paying not you. That's part of the problem too.
Read the Brill article again.


We need to entirely restructure how we pay for medical care in this
country. I don't see it happening, so we all will continue to be ripped
off by the supply chain...hospitals, drug companies, insurance
companies, and to a lesser degree, direct providers of services.


Sad but true. Maybe if the Charge master was posted on the hospital
web site so everyone could see it, they might have to explain why it
is what it is.

No. Chargemaster needs to be outlawed. Or, they have to justify in
writing each cost item, not just list their made for TV price.

On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:48:19 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:39:55 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:02:08 -0700, Urin Asshole
wrote:

The "medicare underpayments" are still OVER what the actual costs are,
and since medicare CANT negotiate, those costs can't be lower. That
would be a good first fix.

Maybe you are one of those Venus Project people who think we should do
away with money but as long as we have money, you need to pay more
than "cost" just to keep the wheels of commerce turning.
"Cost" for the MRI, still does not pay for keeping the building
running. At a certain point you are cutting the pay and benefits for
the workers who do that.
I agree they over use tests but as long as we have lawyers picking
apart every bad outcome, doctors are going to test everything they
think might insulate them from liability.

So.... You are okay with your insurance being charged $30.00 for a
Tylenol? $25.00 for a blanket which is used and washed to be re-used
over and over and can be bought online for $5.00? You do realize these
VERY excessive costs trickle down to the consumer, right?

I already said, most of that $30 is bureaucratic red tape to avoid
liability.

Just cause you said it doesn't make it a fact. It's bull****. Read the
article.

That blanket is thrown away. I bought one last month and they told me
I could take it home if I wanted.
I agree the prices are inflated. Brill points out several reasons why.

Yet, you just said it was "bureaucratic". So, bull****.

I have already said the Charge Master should be a public record so
people will know what the prices are. They should also publish what
the various negotiated or Medicare capped prices are.

And I said it should be outlawed. What the **** is it for? It's a
funny number designed to rip people off.

There is nothing in this boondoggle that a little sunshine would not
help. The main problem is that the customer is usually totally
ignorant of what the price is that they pay. Most people never get
much farther than "This is not a Bill" on that explanation of benefits
statement.

No that's not the main problem. The main problem is that the customer
has little choice when they show up in the emergency room. You're
going to shop around for a cardiologist while you're have a heart
attack????

On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:54:16 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 09:45:47 -0700, Urin Asshole
wrote:

On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:58:20 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:02:08 -0700, Urin Asshole
wrote:

Maybe you are one of those Venus Project people who think we should do
away with money but as long as we have money, you need to pay more
than "cost" just to keep the wheels of commerce turning.
"Cost" for the MRI, still does not pay for keeping the building
running. At a certain point you are cutting the pay and benefits for
the workers who do that.

Huh? The cost of the building is built into the price that is figured
for making a profit. Hospitals are pushing MRIs that don't need to
happen and they are making huge money on the MRIs they have. Read the
****ing article.

That is 2 different issues. Is it over priced and is it necessary in
the first place.

Two issues same result. Ripped off customers.

When Brill talks about the cost of the various tests he is just
talking about that test, not the total infrastructure that supports
the whole operation.

He talked about infrastructure also. Read the article.

I agree they over use tests but as long as we have lawyers picking
apart every bad outcome, doctors are going to test everything they
think might insulate them from liability.

And, yet again, read the ****ing article. Sure, some tort reform needs
to happen, but it's not the "lawyers" fault for all or most of the
medical cost explosion. It's an aspect, but it's mostly the profit
motive, lack of regulation, and inability to negotiate.

Ask your doctor that question. How many things does he do, just to
protect him from being sued? What is his insurance? What does his
insurance carrier pay in settlements before the suit is even filed?
None of those numbers show up when tort lawyers cite the "cost of
litigation".

Ask him what? He doesn't do anything that's unneeded. He's never been
sued as far as I can tell. He gets five stars in all reviews I've
read. He's a great guy and helpful.

Tort reform is needed but it isn't going to solve much. Small potatas.

On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:06:29 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 09:50:56 -0700, Urin Asshole
wrote:

On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:12:20 -0400, wrote:


You forgot the development/approval cost and the lawyer tax. It
probably cost $50 million just to get through FDA testing on the pen
and the first person to get a bad outcome will be suing for another
$50 million.

Bull****. You prefer to blame everyone except the right wingers and
the money that's in the poliitical system from the med lobby.

There is plenty of blame to go around but you can't deny that the FDA
procedures are part of it. That is why drugs and devices usually show
up in Europe years before they are approved here. It is also why
things can be cheaper there.

Tell that to the people who died because of the lack of oversight of
drug mixing pharmacies. What a load of ****. You actually think we
need fewer regulations when it comes to drug safety?


I can see the ad on TV "Did you use the insulin pen and suffer
anything bad at all? Call Dewey, Chetum and Howe. We have money for
you"

Your solution is to prevent people from being justly compensated. Why
don't you bring up the McDonnalds hot coffee case if you'd like to
look really stupid.

You deny there are ads on TV trolling for customers? Why don't you
accept that the lawyers are a big part of the problem? They are big
business too.

They are PART of the problem, but not the biggest or even close to
biggest. Feel free to **** in the wind complaining about lawyers.

We do almost nothing in this country to actually control medical costs.
If Medicare "under-reimburses," those "lost profits" are assessed
against someone else, either an insurance company or an individual. The
insurance company covers its "losses" by overcharging its clients. In my
wife's field of psychotherapy, psychiatrists charge about $200 per
patient visit, and what do most of them do during that visit, which,
typically, lasts about 15 minutes? They try to find out if the meds they
are prescribing are "helping." They don't provide any therapy; that is
left to various non-medically-degreed mental health professionals. Ever
paid $20 for a Tylenol in a hospital? Or $15 for a package of facial
tissues? It's cost-shifting.

Some of that is simply the red tape required to meet all of the
compliance requirements. ALL drugs in a hospital have inventory
controls you would expect for tracking plutonium. Some of it is simply
to control theft but, again, a lot of it is to mitigate liability
The nurse can't simply go shake a tylenol out of the bottle and give
it to you. They need an order from a doctor, they log it out of the
pharmacy and track it from there to the patient's mouth.
Unfortunately they have similar BS for everything you get and
virtually nothing can be logged back into the system.
The last time I was in the hospital for an outpatient procedure they
issued me a pee bottle. I gave it back to them, still sealed in the
plastic. They said "keep it, we can't give that to another patient
now" It was about $20.

Yeah, a small part of it.

You accepted that $20 pee bottle without complaint right.. because
your insurance was paying not you. That's part of the problem too.
Read the Brill article again.

I did not have a choice. I already bought the bottle when they pulled
it from stock. I didn't even see it until I was leaving and it was in
the bag of crap they sold me.

Tha'ts right. You DIDNT have a choice. That's why the chargemaster
**** has to stop and why the government needs to get involved. It's
not a market driven business when half the market can't make a choice.

I agree most people do not care because insurance covers it ... but I
have been saying that all along

You've been saying lots of **** all along. So much that nobody can
figure it out.


We need to entirely restructure how we pay for medical care in this
country. I don't see it happening, so we all will continue to be ripped
off by the supply chain...hospitals, drug companies, insurance
companies, and to a lesser degree, direct providers of services.


Sad but true. Maybe if the Charge master was posted on the hospital
web site so everyone could see it, they might have to explain why it
is what it is.

No. Chargemaster needs to be outlawed. Or, they have to justify in
writing each cost item, not just list their made for TV price.

Chargemaster is just the price list at full retail. They could change
the name if it would make you feel better but the concept will still
be there. It is like that price on the back of a hotel door.

NO IT ISNT. There's no such thing as "full retail". It's a MADE UP
****ING NUMBER THAT HAS NO BASIS IN REALITY. That was in Brill's
article for **** sake.

On 3/11/2013 9:02 PM, Urin Asshole wrote:
On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 20:07:39 -0500, amdx
wrote:

On 3/11/2013 7:51 PM, jps wrote:
On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:59:44 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 12:10:12 -0700, jps wrote:

Military and health care costs have spiraled out of control because no
one wants to appear anti-defense or take on the huge $ in pharma,
non-profit (cough, cough) hospitals, nor face the wrath of their
campaign finance coffers.

Medicine spends about 4 times as much lobby money into our politicians
as the military industrial complex.

That says where the $ is, doesn't it. Is there no end to Americans
being shaken down for the enrichment of the wealthy?


Is there no end to hard working taxpayers being shaken down for the
enrichment of those who would rather while away the time until the first
of the month to come around so they can get their benefits.

Mikek

Sure. That's the heart of the problem. Not the billions spent by the
big corporations trying to get every last dime out of some guy who can
barely feed his family. You're really either stupid or a ****.

I think corporations are at least as smart as Willie Sutton. They are
more likely to target those with money.
I don't get people living in the land of plenty and having such a
problem surviving let alone thriving. I've seen immigrants arrive here
not speaking the language and have assets over a million dollars in
twenty years.

North Korea doesn't have those evil corporations, need a plane ticket?
Mikek
PS.
The grim suggestion that North Koreans are turning to cannibalism were
reported by the Asia Press, and published in the Sunday Times.

They claim a 'hidden famine' in the farming provinces of North and South
Hwanghae has killed 10,000 people, and there are fears that cannibalism
is spreading throughout the country.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-8468781.html

On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:14:22 -0500, amdx wrote:

On 3/11/2013 9:02 PM, Urin Asshole wrote:
On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 20:07:39 -0500, amdx
wrote:

On 3/11/2013 7:51 PM, jps wrote:
On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:59:44 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 12:10:12 -0700, jps wrote:

Military and health care costs have spiraled out of control because no
one wants to appear anti-defense or take on the huge $ in pharma,
non-profit (cough, cough) hospitals, nor face the wrath of their
campaign finance coffers.

Medicine spends about 4 times as much lobby money into our politicians
as the military industrial complex.

That says where the $ is, doesn't it. Is there no end to Americans
being shaken down for the enrichment of the wealthy?


Is there no end to hard working taxpayers being shaken down for the
enrichment of those who would rather while away the time until the first
of the month to come around so they can get their benefits.

Mikek

Sure. That's the heart of the problem. Not the billions spent by the
big corporations trying to get every last dime out of some guy who can
barely feed his family. You're really either stupid or a ****.

I think corporations are at least as smart as Willie Sutton. They are
more likely to target those with money.

They're in a commodity business... 4 billion hamburgs sold. You think
McD's is tarketing Ronmey lookalikes? If so, you're pretty ****ing
stupid.

I don't get people living in the land of plenty and having such a
problem surviving let alone thriving. I've seen immigrants arrive here
not speaking the language and have assets over a million dollars in
twenty years.

Yeah, you don't get it. Most immigrants end up picking veggies in the
fields for less than minimum wage, with no health insurance, and have
to hide in the shadows. Or, they work in a meat packing family until
either they're hurt of can't stand it any more. The immigrants that
you're talking about typically have some sort of support network when
they arrive, like Indians.

North Korea doesn't have those evil corporations, need a plane ticket?
Mikek

I think I'd be happy to chip in on one for you.

PS.
The grim suggestion that North Koreans are turning to cannibalism were
reported by the Asia Press, and published in the Sunday Times.

They claim a 'hidden famine' in the farming provinces of North and South
Hwanghae has killed 10,000 people, and there are fears that cannibalism
is spreading throughout the country.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-8468781.html


So? What the **** does that have to do with medical costs? You ****ing
slimeball.

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:39:55 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:02:08 -0700, Urin Asshole
wrote:

The "medicare underpayments" are still OVER what the actual costs are,
and since medicare CANT negotiate, those costs can't be lower. That
would be a good first fix.

Maybe you are one of those Venus Project people who think we should do
away with money but as long as we have money, you need to pay more
than "cost" just to keep the wheels of commerce turning.
"Cost" for the MRI, still does not pay for keeping the building
running. At a certain point you are cutting the pay and benefits for
the workers who do that.
I agree they over use tests but as long as we have lawyers picking
apart every bad outcome, doctors are going to test everything they
think might insulate them from liability.

So.... You are okay with your insurance being charged $30.00 for a
Tylenol? $25.00 for a blanket which is used and washed to be re-used
over and over and can be bought online for $5.00? You do realize these
VERY excessive costs trickle down to the consumer, right?

I already said, most of that $30 is bureaucratic red tape to avoid
liability.

No, it's not.

That blanket is thrown away. I bought one last month and they told me
I could take it home if I wanted.
I agree the prices are inflated. Brill points out several reasons why.

No, it's not. Yes, you could take it home, but hospital soft goods are
washed and re-used.

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:40:55 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...


That blanket is thrown away. I bought one last month and they told me
I could take it home if I wanted.
I agree the prices are inflated. Brill points out several reasons why.

No, it's not. Yes, you could take it home, but hospital soft goods are
washed and re-used.



The blanket they charge you for comes in a factory sealed bag and once
the bag is opened, they throw it away. These are typically OR supplies
and with the number of infections they get sued for they are not
taking chances. That was straight from the OR nurse who sold me the
blanket.

Nope. Not true at all. I have direct knowledge in this. But, let's just
say that your untrue statement was true. Do you think it's good prudent
financial advice to pay 100 times or more for something that you could
get elsewhere for 100 times less? If so, I have a LOT of things I'd like
to sell you.