On Friday, February 22, 2013 10:51:09 AM UTC-5, Wayne B wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:20:49 -0500, J Herring

wrote:



The same is true in Virginia. My daughter uses gas. When she threatened to switch suppliers, her

company decided it had been charging her too much and gave her a refund of over $2000.



=======



With wholesale prices at around $1/gal, anyone paying much over $2/gal
(+tax) is paying too much and should negotiate for a better deal.

Agreed. I pay a $50 per year rental fee to the company that buried my tank, and buy my propane from another company that gives me a good deal. I save more than $50 in a single fill of the 250 gallon tank.

On 2/22/2013 11:28 AM, wrote:
On Friday, February 22, 2013 10:51:09 AM UTC-5, Wayne B wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:20:49 -0500, J Herring

wrote:



The same is true in Virginia. My daughter uses gas. When she threatened to switch suppliers, her

company decided it had been charging her too much and gave her a refund of over $2000.



=======



With wholesale prices at around $1/gal, anyone paying much over $2/gal
(+tax) is paying too much and should negotiate for a better deal.

Agreed. I pay a $50 per year rental fee to the company that buried my tank, and buy my propane from another company that gives me a good deal. I save more than $50 in a single fill of the 250 gallon tank.


In terms of bang for the buck where do store bought elec., gasoline (all
grades), #2 fuel oil (diesel/heating), propane, natural gas, solar,
hydro, and JP5 rank?

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:34:36 -0500, Meyer wrote:

On 2/22/2013 11:28 AM, wrote:
On Friday, February 22, 2013 10:51:09 AM UTC-5, Wayne B wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:20:49 -0500, J Herring

wrote:



The same is true in Virginia. My daughter uses gas. When she threatened to switch suppliers, her

company decided it had been charging her too much and gave her a refund of over $2000.



=======



With wholesale prices at around $1/gal, anyone paying much over $2/gal
(+tax) is paying too much and should negotiate for a better deal.

Agreed. I pay a $50 per year rental fee to the company that buried my tank, and buy my propane from another company that gives me a good deal. I save more than $50 in a single fill of the 250 gallon tank.


In terms of bang for the buck where do store bought elec., gasoline (all
grades), #2 fuel oil (diesel/heating), propane, natural gas, solar,
hydro, and JP5 rank?

========

Different people will calculate different answers depending on local
fuel prices and availability of generation options. There is also
the issue of operating expense vs capital outlay, and how many years
you choose for depreciating your investment.

Generating your own electricity from hydrocarbon fuels is almost
always the most expensive option. Purchase of utility generated hydro
power is usually the cheapest.

F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 2/20/13 8:12 PM, Eisboch wrote:


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...

If you have propane delivered to your house to fill a large residential
tank, what are you paying per gallon in your part of the country?

We're paying $2.79 a gallon, which is about average for delivered
propane in this market.

------------------------------------------

Don't know if it's considered "large" but we have a 100 gallon tank
that fuels a heater in the garage.
Just had 46.5 gallons delivered and the bill was about $175 which works
out to about $3.68 per gallon (after the small delivery fee).

So, I'd say you are getting a great price.





Well, there are significant regional differences, but it is
interesting to see what prices are in other parts of the country. I
don't know anything about the propane marketplace other than a few
local prices.

Our $2.79 includes the delivery. We're on an annual contract of sorts.
Based upon usage over the last few years (albeit with a different
propane company), the current propane company estimates our gallonage
usage for the year and we pay a flat fee every month toward that
amount. If the price goes up or if we use a lot more than the
estimate, we make it up at the end of the contact year. If we use
less, we get a refund, plus 2% interest.

This is not an unusual arrangement. Most companies in this area offer
a similar deal, and have a similar deal for home heating oil customers.



Sounds like bull****. If it's true, the 2% interest is cheaper than the
IRS levied on you, eh?

F.O.A.D. wrote:


Propane gas prices do vary, just like gasoline prices, and there are
wide variations based upon geography. We burn about 350 gallons a
year, running a hot water heater, gas fireplace, cooktop, one of our
furnaces and, so far, the 10-minute "test run" once a week of the
generator. Obviously, the furnace in the winter is the big user. I
really like the gas fireplace because there's no wood to buy, no
insects in the wood coming into the house, no smoke and no soot, and
it puts out a lot of heat, and, of, of course, it's "on" by flicking a
switch.

You own a hot water heater? If the water is already hot, why heat it?
Save the money and pay you long overdue tax bills, deadbeat.

F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 2/21/13 3:36 PM, Eisboch wrote:


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...


That $2.54 price at the bottom of the short list in the URL was a
"special price" all new customers get when they switch from their old
propane provider to the company we're now using...25 cents off per
gallon on the first tank full-up. Our new provider is locally owned and
seems a hell of a lot more customer-service oriented than the provider
we had for more than nine years. That company was owned by an out of
state corporation.

-------------------------------------

That's the only problem with propane. You really can't shop for
competitive pricing ... at least not in my state .... because only the
supplier who installed the tanks can fill them. If you want to change
suppliers, you have to get new tanks. Not a huge deal but the supplier
also typically requires a contract that you will buy only from them for
some number of years.


If you own your own tank here, you can shop for propane, but the
supplier we are now using gave us a good deal on the plumbing
necessary for our back up generator, plus a discount on the first
fill, and its prices are competitive. If I wanted, I could change
suppliers, but I have no reason to do so.



Are you going to pay him? If not, the price is irrelevant. Your unpaid
taxes are relevant and will catch up to you.

Eisboch wrote:


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...

On 2/22/13 8:02 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
...


Unfortunately, "life as we know it" ceases with a power outage, since
we're on a well. We have bottled water for drinking, but without water
to wash up, flush toilets, et cetera, you might as well mosey on over to
a motel if you are facing an outage that might run more than two days.

Several of our neighbors got a "deal" on 10,000 watt generators on
wheels and jury-rigged hookups to their circuit breaker boxes, and these
work ok but the hookups look scary to me. Also, apparently they cannot
run their heat pumps off these units because of the start-up power
requirements. This is way over my non-electrician pay grade.

-----------------------------------------------

During Hurricane Wilma (while we still had a house in Florida) I had
purchased a 12,500 watt "portable" contractor type generator and
installed a transfer switch to the power panel. We also had well water
there with a 220 volt pump and electric hot water heater. Since the
little Honda doesn't generate 220 volts, I figured we'd be all set.
When the power was lost, I fired up the big generator and quickly
learned how much fuel it went through during the first day and how noisy
the damn thing was. Not knowing how long the power would be out
(turned out to be over a week), I hooked up the little Honda, just for
a refrig, couple of lights, a TV and the Direct TV box.

In the mornings, I'd fire up the big generator for about an hour or so
to take a hot shower. We had an accumulator on the well water system,
so it was good for several toilet flushes without power. I'd run it
again for a half hour in the evening to recharge the accumulator.
Running the big generator this way was sufficient for the water issue.
I also fired up one of two A/C units, just to see how the big generator
handled it. It was fine, but really not worth the fuel burn since it
was November and not all that hot or humid.

The Honda ran 24 hours a day for the 7 or 8 days until commercial power
was restored. The next summer is when we had a pool installed at the
house in MA. The contractors used the Honda every day that summer and
part of the next to power the stone saw they were using for cutting the
bluestone. By that time, I figured the dusty Honda was probably pretty
much worn out and I put it away and forgot about it. It sat unused,
with stale gas in it for the next 6 years until we had a storm and lost
power for several hours. I dug it out and much to my surprise, it
fired up after a few pulls and ran fine. As mentioned before, I used
it again two weeks ago and it ran non-stop (other than refueling twice a
day) for the three day outage. I am really impressed with these
little generators. When this one finally dies, I'll probably replace
it with the EU3000i model and get the adaptor for an external gas tank.
I've calculated all the current draw we'd require to heat the house, run
a couple of refrigerators and some lights. The EU3000i will handle it
fine.





According to Generac, a 17KW unit burns 2.57 gallons of propane an hour
at full load and 1.30 gallons at half load. Half load or less is the
most common running speed.

24 hours of operation at 1.3 gallons an hour...that's about 31 gallons a
day times, let's say, $3.00 a gallon...that's about $100 a day, which,
even in these parts, will barely get you a hotel room if you can find a
vacancy. The reality is, most of the time a household generator will
running at far less than half speed.

We seriously considered a wheeled generator, but the power comes into
the house on the far side away from the garage, and that means stumbling
around in the dark or in the rain or in the dark and rain or snow or
whatever, pushing the unit across the yard and plugging it in in similar
circumstances, et cetera. A couple of feet of snow in the yard and the
unit would stay in the garage. Had the power come into the house outside
the garage, with the panels in the garage, a wheeled generator would
have been just fine.


--------------------------------------

I was just checking current prices for a whole house generator. The
contractor had recommended one in the 17Kw to 20Kw range. At the time
(back in 2006) he quoted a little over $8k for a propane powered one,
installed. Prices must have come down since, because I see you can
get a Generac 17Kw for under $4K. Installation can't make up the
difference in price, I don't think, especially when all the
underground power leads exist from outside to the power panel. I had
that installed during the pool installation since the yard was all dug
up anyway.

Must have been a union contractor. :-)



The difference is air-cooled vs water cooled.

Earl

In article , earl1734
@hotmail.com says...

F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 2/20/13 8:12 PM, Eisboch wrote:


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...

If you have propane delivered to your house to fill a large residential
tank, what are you paying per gallon in your part of the country?

We're paying $2.79 a gallon, which is about average for delivered
propane in this market.

------------------------------------------

Don't know if it's considered "large" but we have a 100 gallon tank
that fuels a heater in the garage.
Just had 46.5 gallons delivered and the bill was about $175 which works
out to about $3.68 per gallon (after the small delivery fee).

So, I'd say you are getting a great price.





Well, there are significant regional differences, but it is
interesting to see what prices are in other parts of the country. I
don't know anything about the propane marketplace other than a few
local prices.

Our $2.79 includes the delivery. We're on an annual contract of sorts.
Based upon usage over the last few years (albeit with a different
propane company), the current propane company estimates our gallonage
usage for the year and we pay a flat fee every month toward that
amount. If the price goes up or if we use a lot more than the
estimate, we make it up at the end of the contact year. If we use
less, we get a refund, plus 2% interest.

This is not an unusual arrangement. Most companies in this area offer
a similar deal, and have a similar deal for home heating oil customers.



Sounds like bull****. If it's true, the 2% interest is cheaper than the
IRS levied on you, eh?

Why is the propane company paying higher interest than the banks?

wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 21:38:19 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:



I had a friend who lived on Long Island who installed a propane heater
for his pool and then regretted it as he watched his tank being filled
weekly.
When we put our pool in here in MA, I went for an electric heater.
It's big (150,000 BTU heat pump) but we only use it to initially get
the water temp up in the spring and then later in the fall to extend
the pool use a bit. Most of the time it is off.

I have a 330 KBTU propane heater on our pool and I think we have only
used it 3 times. You can see the gauge move on a 150 gallon tank and
the pool does not really get that warm if it is cold outside..

I sue my solar collectors in the spring and fall but if it is getting
much below 75 at night, the pool will be too cold for us to get in it.
I switch the solars over to the spa in the winter. It stays toasty for
free.

When they were putting the pool in, the electrical contractor was
trying to sell us a whole house, propane powered generator. He said
we could tie it into the 100 gallon tank we have for the garage
heater. He ran all the wiring for it but, after thinking about it,
I elected to hold off on it. That was 7 years ago. The number of
times we have been without power for any extended period of time in
the last 7 years just doesn't justify the cost of a huge generator
like that, plus it would also go through propane fast.

I just got a propane kit for my little 5.5KVA generator. That will be
enough to keep the fridges going, run the mini split in the bedroom
and pump our water.
That propane tank will run it for quite a while.

I have not filled the tank for a while. I am not sure what the price
is. It was about $2.70 the last time I did it. I will top it off
before summer.

I live in an upscale area. We have natural gas, delivered via underground
lines. Most we have been without power in 33 years is about 12 hours when
the underground transformer blew. Underground utilities here.