In article ,
says...

On Thu, 6 Dec 2012 10:37:30 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Thursday, December 6, 2012 11:42:14 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 14:33:55 -0800, jps wrote:



On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 12:03:00 -0500, wrote:







You have not explained why all of those "available" American kids are

not taking the science and engineering courses.

Are you trying to say they are being discriminated against?

(not enough "affirmative action" perhaps?)



Maybe we should give Americans an extra 500 points on their SATs and

extra grade points once they get accepted so they can compete.

You admit they already get a big break on tuition



Maybe it is just because our overpriced K-12 government schools suck.

We spend more money on K-12 than any other country, yet we rank around

#26 in math and science. That is the real reason why our kids waste

their college money on courses that only qualify them to be the most

interesting barista at Starbucks.



You completely glossed the explanation. Higher ed state schools with

the programs to churn out STEM graduates are opting for the high value

out-of-state (country) students and their higher tuition rates, at the

cost of our own kids having seats.



From what I understand, lots of Chinese students being accepted at US

universities have ginned up resumes and doctored educational

histories.



Cash strapped states are slashing funding for state colleges so

they're stuck in the middle, desperate for higher tuition rates. Those

tuition rates are not as easly reachable for stateside students

anymore, so they're being paid by foreign students from wealthy

families.



Welcome to the new reality in the states. Poorly-funded educational

system incapable of turning out the talent that's sorely needed to

keep the country competitive.



Get it?



Are you saying there are a significant number of American kids who
apply and are rejected?
As for the allegation that the foreign students fake their
qualifications, maybe a good measure would be the graduation rate.

He obviously hasn't been to a college graduation lately. I have.
The higher degrees were award to students who were 75-80% foreign. While they were learning the basics and beyond in school,
in families that stress the value of education, their American counterparts were playing X-Box and kicking a soccer ball.

===

Family support of educational goals is absolutely key. Too many
parents today make trouble for teachers who give their child poor
grades instead of getting to the root cause. Schools have got to get
over this notion that a child's (and parent's) self esteem is more
important than actual learning.

When my oldest daughter was in 3rd grade I attended one of her
parent/teacher conferences. The teacher told me that she was having some
trouble with math. I quickly responded asking the teacher what resources
I could use to help my daughter with math. The teacher was taken aback
because she didn't expect a parent to care or want to help.

In article ,
says...

On Thursday, December 6, 2012 11:42:14 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 14:33:55 -0800, jps wrote:



On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 12:03:00 -0500, wrote:







You have not explained why all of those "available" American kids are

not taking the science and engineering courses.

Are you trying to say they are being discriminated against?

(not enough "affirmative action" perhaps?)



Maybe we should give Americans an extra 500 points on their SATs and

extra grade points once they get accepted so they can compete.

You admit they already get a big break on tuition



Maybe it is just because our overpriced K-12 government schools suck.

We spend more money on K-12 than any other country, yet we rank around

#26 in math and science. That is the real reason why our kids waste

their college money on courses that only qualify them to be the most

interesting barista at Starbucks.



You completely glossed the explanation. Higher ed state schools with

the programs to churn out STEM graduates are opting for the high value

out-of-state (country) students and their higher tuition rates, at the

cost of our own kids having seats.



From what I understand, lots of Chinese students being accepted at US

universities have ginned up resumes and doctored educational

histories.



Cash strapped states are slashing funding for state colleges so

they're stuck in the middle, desperate for higher tuition rates. Those

tuition rates are not as easly reachable for stateside students

anymore, so they're being paid by foreign students from wealthy

families.



Welcome to the new reality in the states. Poorly-funded educational

system incapable of turning out the talent that's sorely needed to

keep the country competitive.



Get it?



Are you saying there are a significant number of American kids who
apply and are rejected?
As for the allegation that the foreign students fake their
qualifications, maybe a good measure would be the graduation rate.

He obviously hasn't been to a college graduation lately. I have. The higher degrees were award to students who were 75-80% foreign. While they were learning the basics and beyond in school, in families that stress the value of education, their American counterparts were playing X-Box and kicking a soccer ball.

Bull****.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-
colleges/rankings/national-universities/most-international

On Thursday, December 6, 2012 2:30:55 PM UTC-5, iBoaterer wrote:
In article ,

says...


He obviously hasn't been to a college graduation lately. I have. The higher degrees were award to students who were 75-80% foreign. While they were learning the basics and beyond in school, in families that stress the value of education, their American counterparts were playing X-Box and kicking a soccer ball.

Bull****.


http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-
colleges/rankings/national-universities/most-international

What a maroon you are. Your link doesn't disprove anything I wrote.

On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 12:03:00 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 02:22:41 -0800, jps wrote:

On Tue, 04 Dec 2012 18:34:27 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 04 Dec 2012 14:11:00 -0800, jps wrote:


Eager to help the already rich, Republicans can't wait to make
US-based engineering and technical positions more easily available to
foriegn students.

Republican job cremators. They can't abide investing in Americans for
those jobs, because two, three or four years is too long to wait to
satisfy their quarter-to-quarter buddies in the tech sector.

"The STEM Jobs Act, a bill that would make it easier for immigrants
studying science, technology, engineering and math (STEM) in American
universities to work in the U.S., is expected to pass a House vote
today with the support of most Republicans and some Democrats (it
did)."


How is this short term thinking?

We simply can't get American kids to take these courses. They prefer a
softer course load. If we don't hire these immigrants, the job will
follow them back to Asia or India and we will lose the education plus
the job.

The majority of the $ goes back home to the immigrant's family. Less
gets invested in the local economy and our standard of living
continues to deteriorate.

So you don't think the innovation and keeping the job here has any
value at all? Don't these immigrants have to buy houses, cars, food
and all of the other things that make it worth living here?

You sound like you have been listening to Rush too long.


We have plenty of kids available to take these courses. We're selling
those seats to the highest bidders because state colleges are
underfunded and desperate for higher tuitions that come from out of
state (country) students.

You have not explained why all of those "available" American kids are
not taking the science and engineering courses.
Are you trying to say they are being discriminated against?
(not enough "affirmative action" perhaps?)

Maybe we should give Americans an extra 500 points on their SATs and
extra grade points once they get accepted so they can compete.
You admit they already get a big break on tuition

Mental wealth redistribution.

Maybe it is just because our overpriced K-12 government schools suck.
We spend more money on K-12 than any other country, yet we rank around
#26 in math and science. That is the real reason why our kids waste
their college money on courses that only qualify them to be the most
interesting barista at Starbucks.

A whole lot of that is due to the union 'protection' afforded worthless 'teachers' (term used very
loosely here).

GuzzisRule wrote:
On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 12:03:00 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 02:22:41 -0800, jps wrote:

On Tue, 04 Dec 2012 18:34:27 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 04 Dec 2012 14:11:00 -0800, jps wrote:


Eager to help the already rich, Republicans can't wait to make
US-based engineering and technical positions more easily available to
foriegn students.

Republican job cremators. They can't abide investing in Americans for
those jobs, because two, three or four years is too long to wait to
satisfy their quarter-to-quarter buddies in the tech sector.

"The STEM Jobs Act, a bill that would make it easier for immigrants
studying science, technology, engineering and math (STEM) in American
universities to work in the U.S., is expected to pass a House vote
today with the support of most Republicans and some Democrats (it
did)."


How is this short term thinking?

We simply can't get American kids to take these courses. They prefer a
softer course load. If we don't hire these immigrants, the job will
follow them back to Asia or India and we will lose the education plus
the job.

The majority of the $ goes back home to the immigrant's family. Less
gets invested in the local economy and our standard of living
continues to deteriorate.

So you don't think the innovation and keeping the job here has any
value at all? Don't these immigrants have to buy houses, cars, food
and all of the other things that make it worth living here?

You sound like you have been listening to Rush too long.


We have plenty of kids available to take these courses. We're selling
those seats to the highest bidders because state colleges are
underfunded and desperate for higher tuitions that come from out of
state (country) students.

You have not explained why all of those "available" American kids are
not taking the science and engineering courses.
Are you trying to say they are being discriminated against?
(not enough "affirmative action" perhaps?)

Maybe we should give Americans an extra 500 points on their SATs and
extra grade points once they get accepted so they can compete.
You admit they already get a big break on tuition

Mental wealth redistribution.

Maybe it is just because our overpriced K-12 government schools suck.
We spend more money on K-12 than any other country, yet we rank around
#26 in math and science. That is the real reason why our kids waste
their college money on courses that only qualify them to be the most
interesting barista at Starbucks.

A whole lot of that is due to the union 'protection' afforded worthless
'teachers' (term used very
loosely here).

BULL****.

In article , says...

GuzzisRule wrote:
On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 12:03:00 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 02:22:41 -0800, jps wrote:

On Tue, 04 Dec 2012 18:34:27 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 04 Dec 2012 14:11:00 -0800, jps wrote:


Eager to help the already rich, Republicans can't wait to make
US-based engineering and technical positions more easily available to
foriegn students.

Republican job cremators. They can't abide investing in Americans for
those jobs, because two, three or four years is too long to wait to
satisfy their quarter-to-quarter buddies in the tech sector.

"The STEM Jobs Act, a bill that would make it easier for immigrants
studying science, technology, engineering and math (STEM) in American
universities to work in the U.S., is expected to pass a House vote
today with the support of most Republicans and some Democrats (it
did)."


How is this short term thinking?

We simply can't get American kids to take these courses. They prefer a
softer course load. If we don't hire these immigrants, the job will
follow them back to Asia or India and we will lose the education plus
the job.

The majority of the $ goes back home to the immigrant's family. Less
gets invested in the local economy and our standard of living
continues to deteriorate.

So you don't think the innovation and keeping the job here has any
value at all? Don't these immigrants have to buy houses, cars, food
and all of the other things that make it worth living here?

You sound like you have been listening to Rush too long.


We have plenty of kids available to take these courses. We're selling
those seats to the highest bidders because state colleges are
underfunded and desperate for higher tuitions that come from out of
state (country) students.

You have not explained why all of those "available" American kids are
not taking the science and engineering courses.
Are you trying to say they are being discriminated against?
(not enough "affirmative action" perhaps?)

Maybe we should give Americans an extra 500 points on their SATs and
extra grade points once they get accepted so they can compete.
You admit they already get a big break on tuition

Mental wealth redistribution.

Maybe it is just because our overpriced K-12 government schools suck.
We spend more money on K-12 than any other country, yet we rank around
#26 in math and science. That is the real reason why our kids waste
their college money on courses that only qualify them to be the most
interesting barista at Starbucks.

A whole lot of that is due to the union 'protection' afforded worthless
'teachers' (term used very
loosely here).

BULL****.

Do teachers pay taxes, I think they do. I know there are some union
hacks who don't pay taxes.

On Tue, 04 Dec 2012 18:34:27 -0500, wrote:

We simply can't get American kids to take these courses.

===

Unfortunately there is a lot of truth to that. Part of the problem
however is with our media and popular culture which frequently
portrays technical jobs as being "uncool", along with the people who
work in those areas. There are exceptions of course but I also think
it's true that engineers are not as well rewarded as some our other
professionals and business managers.

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 14:42:23 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Dec 2012 18:34:27 -0500, wrote:

We simply can't get American kids to take these courses.

===

Unfortunately there is a lot of truth to that. Part of the problem
however is with our media and popular culture which frequently
portrays technical jobs as being "uncool", along with the people who
work in those areas. There are exceptions of course but I also think
it's true that engineers are not as well rewarded as some our other
professionals and business managers.

That is pretty much true if you are working for a big corporation.
Places like Apple and HP know they can hire an Asian immigrant who
will work harder and take less pay than the average American.
Unfortunately the alternative is simply off shoring the job.
If you are Dilbert in a cube, that cube can as easily be in Mumbai.

The best chance to make a lot of money in engineering is to be a PE. A
PE with a stamp can make a quarter million a year and it is all up
from there depending on how good a business person you are.

Most rewarding, unfortunately, is being a money mover. They produce
nothing and make the most.

Part of that equation is that you have to really have two jobs. One is
engineering, the other is running a heavily regulated and paperwork
insane business.

On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 15:17:14 -0500, wrote:

The best chance to make a lot of money in engineering is to be a PE. A
PE with a stamp can make a quarter million a year and it is all up
from there depending on how good a business person you are.

===

How does that work? I am totally ignorant about what PEs do, and how
they become qualified.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 15:17:14 -0500, wrote:

The best chance to make a lot of money in engineering is to be a PE.
A
PE with a stamp can make a quarter million a year and it is all up
from there depending on how good a business person you are.

===

How does that work? I am totally ignorant about what PEs do, and how
they become qualified.

------------------------------------------------

PEs (Professional Engineers) are licensed by their respect states in
the discipline they are degreed and have experience in.
Typically a PE has demonstrated expertise in his/her discipline and
insures that all of the state's rules and regulations on how "things"
are designed and manufactured are adhered to.

Quite often large companies will require a PE's stamp on the initial
design and the "as built" blueprints or electrical schematics. A
more junior engineer may have actually done the design work but the
finished drawings, specs and calculations must be reviewed and signed
off by the PE.

It's not unlike having a code stamp for welding in a fabrication area.
A "N" stamp means the welder is "N" certified and the methods and
materials meet nuclear construction codes.