Told you the Volt was dead...
 

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

In article m,

says...

On 3/8/2012 3:54 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,
says...

On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 13:23:07 -0500, wrote:

On 3/8/2012 12:07 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,
says...

On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 11:03:20 -0500, wrote:

On 3/8/2012 10:29 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 10:04:11 -0500, wrote:

On 3/8/2012 8:49 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:53:44 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:25:15 -0500,
wrote:

On 3/7/2012 1:33 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In
web.com,

says...

On 3/7/2012 8:46 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In
,

says...

In
,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 18:57:23 -0500,

wrote:

In
,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:00:39 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:36:10 -0500,

wrote:

In ,

says...

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed...snerk
Sometimes it pays to look
at the
world with an open mind...

Has nothing to do with the technology and
everything to do with
the
sales.

It has everything to do with the COST of the
technology tho.

Basically the problem is battery cost vs price.
These things are rich man's toys. If saving
money
is
your
objective,
buy a Cruze and put the left over $20,000-30,000
toward gas.

I understand the government will subsidize your
electric car
purchase
to make that price delta look more attractive
but
that does not
reduce
the cost, it only transfers it to people who
can't
afford to buy
one.


-----------------------------------
Very true. Look at the subsidy for a Tesla.
Average income of a
Tesla
buyer? $250k. As to technology. In 1919 an
electric car got 30
miles to
the charge. What does a Volt get? 30 miles.
Not
a
lot of
technology
improvement in nearly a 100 years. Still down
to
battery
technology. Plus
where is the power to charge going to come from?
They say no
pollution.
What about that coal or oil fired generating
plant?

Actually they had a range of about 100 miles, but
you'd probably
bitch
about the 20 mph top speed, the eisenglass
windows,
and no gasoline
backup.

It appears that the same problems they were having
100
years ago
with
electric vehicles are the same problems they have
today.

http://inventors.about.com/od/estart...c-Vehicles.htm

The initiation of mass production of internal
combustion engine
vehicles
by Henry Ford made these vehicles widely available
and
affordable in
the
$500 to $1,000 price range. By contrast, the price
of
the less
efficiently produced electric vehicles continued
to
rise. In 1912,
an
electric roadster sold for $1,750, while a
gasoline
car sold for
$650.

I'm waiting on the fuel cell. You people talk
like
the Wright
Brothers
were idiots for not building the 747, first.
Maybe
Edison should
have
invented the halogen bulb, first.

You will notice that the Wright brothers plane
runs
on
the same fuel
that today's 747 runs on.

I don't know where you came up with that gem of
misinformation, but
it
is demonstrably totally wrong. (Like the rest of
your
assertions.)

The response you'll type to this will be possible
because of all of
the money spent 50+ years ago on the space
program,
which a lot of
people said was idiotic and useless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet

Things change and the gas station as we know it
is
on
the same path
as
the blacksmith at the end of the 19th century.

The fueling station will not change for another 50
years.

You will soon be proven wrong. Look for LPG light
trucks and cars in
the next model year or so, with road tractors soon
to
follow. It will
be a small leap to add electrical power.

http://www.extraordinaryroadtrip.org/research-
library/technology/liqufied-petroleum/ad-draw.asp

The drawbacks of LPG include:

In cold conditions, below 32 degrees
Fahrenheit, starting could
be a
problem because of the low vapor pressure of propane
at
low
temperatures.
One gallon of LPG contains less energy
than
a
gallon of
gasoline.
The driving range of a propane vehicle is about 14
percent lower than
a
comparable gasoline-powered vehicle.
LPG is generally higher priced than other
fuel
alternatives such
as
CNG and gasoline.
There are over 4,000 LPG refueling sites
in
the US, more than
all of
the other alternative fuels combined. Most of these
stations, however,
are not readily available to consumers on a 24/7
basis.
This is one of
the reasons why most on-road applications are
bi-fuel
vehicles, which
burn LPG and gasoline.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_density.svg

You will notice that the Lion battery is way down
near
0,0.

The Lion battery's days are numbered. Better
technology
is just
around
the corner.

They are working on the heat problem. They haven't
come
up with
anything
better, NiMh isn't any better. The plastic batteries
are
not ready for
prime time. And the ceramic batteries are not cost
effective to
manufacture.

LPG is NOT higher priced than gasoline.

By what measure?

Cost.

Cost per gallon? Cost per pound? Engineers are supposed
to
be precise
and un ambiguous. So far you ain't doin so good.

Does it matter? Considering the current respective costs,
cheaper is
cheaper.

At this time it is cheaper per gallon.

At this time it is cheaper per pound.

At this time it is cheaper in cost per distance covered.

At this time it is cheaper in BTU consumed.

It is cheaper to use as a fuel.
----------------------------------------
Cost per MPG? LPG is about $3+ around here.

$3 ? It costs $60 to fill a 20# grill tank? Holy crap! I
can
get one
filled, retail, for a little over $14.00, including tax.

I buy 33# for about the same price including tax,
delivered.
(This
company won't do consumer tanks.) Who knows what the stuff
really
costs? And what the markup is.

Realize that $3 per gallon at 4 1/2 gallons equals $13.50

Maybe we need clarification on whether it is $3.00 per
gallon
or
$3.00
per pound. Normally, one purchases LPG per pound, not
gallon.
Tanks
are size by pound, not gallon. Buying a gallon of product,
without
control of density, is pretty lame.

In any case, when buying small quantities, you are paying
about
twice
what the product can be bought for (retail) in larger
quantities.

Storage tanks are sized in cubic feet.
Propane id dispensed by the gallon from the tank.
Usually, but not always, larger packages of something are
sold
at
lower
per unit prices than smaller packages.

Sure looks like these storage tanks are being sold size by the
gallon.
http://www.storagetankspropane.com/inventory.php

Stationary propane is dispensed from the tank by molecule,
metered
by
the gallon, and charged by the pound. Check with your local
distributor, better yet, just watch them fill a tank. If it
doesn't
have an over-pressure shutoff, they will fill the tank by
weight.
Otherwise, they just pump until it won't take any more.

Yep, agreed. Where I buy mine, they do just exactly that. By
the
way, if
you go to someplace where you exchange your 20# empty for a
"filled"
one, you are getting ripped off. They fill those to 18#
claiming
it's
for safety. I go to Ace where I get a real 20# refill.




Look up OPD. then go discuss what you find with your nitwit
friend.
I'll
leave you two to jerk each other off.

What part of "According to statements appearing on the two
companies?
websites, in 2008 both reduced the amount of propane in their
?full?
tanks sold consumers ..." didn't you get?

OPDs have been required since 2002, so it has nothing to do with
short
fills.

A 20# LPG tank is made to HOLD 20#, that is why it has a tare
weight
stamped on it. There is a void space in excess of the 20# amount
to
account for the 80% fill. OPDs became necessary because people
were
filling 20# tanks IN EXCESS of 20#.

Wow, I see old Oscar is getting all shook up!

Your task was to show that lpg is cheaper to use than gasoline. You
haven't proved your point. I guess I was expecting too much of you.

I don't think he understands the concept.

Sure I do, it's very easy to see that LPG is cheaper per energy unit
than gasoline.


---------------------------------
You get 30% or less mileage per gallon. If a lot of cars started
burning
LPG I bet you would see the price go up at least $0.50 a gallon in state
and
federal motor fuel taxes. Add in those costs and what is the cost per
mile
for fuel?

Nothing but speculation.


-----------------------------------
You do not think that the governments will give up those road taxes?

What I think has no bearing on anything. I can't see into the future.
Again, it's speculation.


---------------------------------------
Very true with you. Probably why you are broke, as you can not see the
future via trends, etc.

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article , says...

On 3/11/2012 5:51 PM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/11/2012 1:07 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In , says...

On 3/11/2012 10:23 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/11/2012 10:14 AM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/11/2012 8:27 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/10/2012 11:48 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/10/2012 11:28 PM, Califbill wrote:
"Oscar" wrote in message
.com...

On 3/8/2012 11:15 PM, Califbill wrote:
wrote in message
...

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:53:44 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:25:15 -0500, wrote:

On 3/7/2012 1:33 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In
web.com,

says...

On 3/7/2012 8:46 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,

says...

In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 18:57:23 -0500,
wrote:

In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:00:39 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:36:10 -0500,

wrote:

In ,

says...

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/









Told you, and you laughed...snerk Sometimes it
pays to
look
at the
world with an open mind...

Has nothing to do with the technology and everything
to do
with
the
sales.

It has everything to do with the COST of the
technology
tho.

Basically the problem is battery cost vs price.
These things are rich man's toys. If saving money is
your
objective,
buy a Cruze and put the left over $20,000-30,000
toward
gas.

I understand the government will subsidize your
electric
car
purchase
to make that price delta look more attractive but
that does
not
reduce
the cost, it only transfers it to people who can't
afford to
buy
one.


-----------------------------------
Very true. Look at the subsidy for a Tesla. Average
income
of a
Tesla
buyer? $250k. As to technology. In 1919 an electric
car
got 30
miles to
the charge. What does a Volt get? 30 miles. Not a lot
of
technology
improvement in nearly a 100 years. Still down to
battery
technology. Plus
where is the power to charge going to come from? They
say no
pollution.
What about that coal or oil fired generating plant?

Actually they had a range of about 100 miles, but you'd
probably
bitch
about the 20 mph top speed, the eisenglass windows,
and no
gasoline
backup.

It appears that the same problems they were having 100
years
ago
with
electric vehicles are the same problems they have today.

http://inventors.about.com/od/estart...c-Vehicles.htm








The initiation of mass production of internal combustion
engine
vehicles
by Henry Ford made these vehicles widely available and
affordable in
the
$500 to $1,000 price range. By contrast, the price of
the
less
efficiently produced electric vehicles continued to
rise. In
1912,
an
electric roadster sold for $1,750, while a gasoline car
sold
for
$650.

I'm waiting on the fuel cell. You people talk like the
Wright
Brothers
were idiots for not building the 747, first. Maybe
Edison
should
have
invented the halogen bulb, first.

You will notice that the Wright brothers plane runs on
the
same
fuel
that today's 747 runs on.

I don't know where you came up with that gem of
misinformation,
but
it
is demonstrably totally wrong. (Like the rest of your
assertions.)

The response you'll type to this will be possible
because of
all of
the money spent 50+ years ago on the space program,
which a
lot of
people said was idiotic and useless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet

Things change and the gas station as we know it is on
the
same
path
as
the blacksmith at the end of the 19th century.

The fueling station will not change for another 50
years.

You will soon be proven wrong. Look for LPG light trucks
and
cars in
the next model year or so, with road tractors soon to
follow. It
will
be a small leap to add electrical power.

http://www.extraordinaryroadtrip.org/research-
library/technology/liqufied-petroleum/ad-draw.asp

The drawbacks of LPG include:

In cold conditions, below 32 degrees Fahrenheit, starting
could
be a
problem because of the low vapor pressure of propane at
low
temperatures.
One gallon of LPG contains less energy than a gallon of
gasoline.
The driving range of a propane vehicle is about 14 percent
lower
than
a
comparable gasoline-powered vehicle.
LPG is generally higher priced than other fuel
alternatives
such
as
CNG and gasoline.
There are over 4,000 LPG refueling sites in the US, more
than
all of
the other alternative fuels combined. Most of these
stations,
however,
are not readily available to consumers on a 24/7 basis.
This is
one of
the reasons why most on-road applications are bi-fuel
vehicles,
which
burn LPG and gasoline.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_density.svg

You will notice that the Lion battery is way down near
0,0.

The Lion battery's days are numbered. Better technology
is
just
around
the corner.

They are working on the heat problem. They haven't come
up with
anything
better, NiMh isn't any better. The plastic batteries are
not
ready for
prime time. And the ceramic batteries are not cost
effective to
manufacture.

LPG is NOT higher priced than gasoline.

By what measure?

Cost.

Cost per gallon? Cost per pound? Engineers are supposed to be
precise
and un ambiguous. So far you ain't doin so good.

Does it matter? Considering the current respective costs,
cheaper is
cheaper.

At this time it is cheaper per gallon.

At this time it is cheaper per pound.

At this time it is cheaper in cost per distance covered.

At this time it is cheaper in BTU consumed.

It is cheaper to use as a fuel.
----------------------------------------
Cost per MPG? LPG is about $3+ around here.

$3 ? It costs $60 to fill a 20# grill tank? Holy crap! I can
get one
filled, retail, for a little over $14.00, including tax.

I buy 33# for about the same price including tax, delivered.
(This
company won't do consumer tanks.) Who knows what the stuff
really
costs? And what the markup is.


-----------------------------
You seemed to be Math challenged. $3 a gallon is not $3 a pound.
Around
here the tank exchange is about $18 and they are not full fill.

Where is the benefit of tank exchange when propane stations seem
to be
everywhere?


The EPA makes it difficult for new distributors to put above
ground
tanks, and filling stations have lots of other regulations... But
almost
any retailer can make room for a locked 10x10 foot cage with
ready to
go, filled tanks...

I like the convenience of having the attendant thae the tank out
of my
trunk, fill it, and put it back, * full*.


Yeah, I like the convienience of driving up to Home Depot, give
them the
old tank, and get a new filled one.. No waiting for anyone to fill
anything. No huge tanks taking up half the parking lot, etc...

I'll have to time the guy filling my tank next time, I can't imagine
it
taking more than a minute.


In a perfect world, yes... We have several stations around here and I
stil use them but it's not as easy. You pull in and grab your tank and
walk it out back where the filling station is. At least around here it
is usually off in a corner somewhere with a good buffer zone, locked
fence, locked nozzle etc... Then you go inside and wait for the
attendant to free up, anywhere from 30 seconds to five minutes before
you go out to unlock the gate, unlock the nozzle, zero the scale,
purge
the tank, fill and weigh the tank, wait for the guy to fill three more
tanks from others who pulled in while you were filling (we obviously
don't have filling stations on every corner here like you do), and
carry
your tank back to your car, go in and pay.... I just don't see why you
won't accept that it's easier to pull up to the pen, pull out a full
tank and pay for it inside... unless of course you are another Plume
type character that just want's to argue for the sake of arguing...

I can get my tank filled at my local hardware, 20# worth, quicker than
I
can get one replaced and payed for at Home Depot or just about
anywhere.
AND, I get the real 20#, not 15. By the way, you don't "purge" the
tank.

This is turning into a really stupid thread.


Cause some people can't be wrong... and if they are they argue even
more. It's what they are here for, I can't imagine the childhood of such
dim-witted folks...

Are you thinking that you are really getting 20# at the exchange. READ.
They state 15#.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They lowered the amount to keep the price the same when the price of Propane
increased. Marketing 101. You may really be getting less, and maybe your
tank is almost empty and not fully depleted. But just like buying bread at
the market for 5x what you could make it yourself, it is the convenience.

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

On 3/12/2012 1:02 PM, Califbill wrote:
"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article , says...

On 3/11/2012 5:51 PM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/11/2012 1:07 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In , says...

On 3/11/2012 10:23 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/11/2012 10:14 AM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/11/2012 8:27 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/10/2012 11:48 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/10/2012 11:28 PM, Califbill wrote:
"Oscar" wrote in message
.com...

On 3/8/2012 11:15 PM, Califbill wrote:
wrote in message
...

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:53:44 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:25:15 -0500, wrote:

On 3/7/2012 1:33 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In
web.com,

says...

On 3/7/2012 8:46 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,

says...

In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 18:57:23 -0500,
wrote:

In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:00:39 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:36:10 -0500,

wrote:

In ,

says...


http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/










Told you, and you laughed...snerk Sometimes it
pays to
look
at the
world with an open mind...

Has nothing to do with the technology and everything
to do
with
the
sales.

It has everything to do with the COST of the
technology
tho.

Basically the problem is battery cost vs price.
These things are rich man's toys. If saving money is
your
objective,
buy a Cruze and put the left over $20,000-30,000
toward
gas.

I understand the government will subsidize your
electric
car
purchase
to make that price delta look more attractive but
that does
not
reduce
the cost, it only transfers it to people who can't
afford to
buy
one.


-----------------------------------
Very true. Look at the subsidy for a Tesla. Average
income
of a
Tesla
buyer? $250k. As to technology. In 1919 an
electric car
got 30
miles to
the charge. What does a Volt get? 30 miles. Not a
lot of
technology
improvement in nearly a 100 years. Still down to
battery
technology. Plus
where is the power to charge going to come from? They
say no
pollution.
What about that coal or oil fired generating plant?

Actually they had a range of about 100 miles, but
you'd
probably
bitch
about the 20 mph top speed, the eisenglass windows,
and no
gasoline
backup.

It appears that the same problems they were having 100
years
ago
with
electric vehicles are the same problems they have
today.


http://inventors.about.com/od/estart...c-Vehicles.htm








The initiation of mass production of internal
combustion
engine
vehicles
by Henry Ford made these vehicles widely available and
affordable in
the
$500 to $1,000 price range. By contrast, the price
of the
less
efficiently produced electric vehicles continued to
rise. In
1912,
an
electric roadster sold for $1,750, while a gasoline car
sold
for
$650.

I'm waiting on the fuel cell. You people talk like the
Wright
Brothers
were idiots for not building the 747, first. Maybe
Edison
should
have
invented the halogen bulb, first.

You will notice that the Wright brothers plane runs
on the
same
fuel
that today's 747 runs on.

I don't know where you came up with that gem of
misinformation,
but
it
is demonstrably totally wrong. (Like the rest of your
assertions.)

The response you'll type to this will be possible
because of
all of
the money spent 50+ years ago on the space program,
which a
lot of
people said was idiotic and useless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet

Things change and the gas station as we know it is
on the
same
path
as
the blacksmith at the end of the 19th century.

The fueling station will not change for another 50
years.

You will soon be proven wrong. Look for LPG light trucks
and
cars in
the next model year or so, with road tractors soon to
follow. It
will
be a small leap to add electrical power.

http://www.extraordinaryroadtrip.org/research-
library/technology/liqufied-petroleum/ad-draw.asp

The drawbacks of LPG include:

In cold conditions, below 32 degrees Fahrenheit, starting
could
be a
problem because of the low vapor pressure of propane
at low
temperatures.
One gallon of LPG contains less energy than a gallon of
gasoline.
The driving range of a propane vehicle is about 14
percent
lower
than
a
comparable gasoline-powered vehicle.
LPG is generally higher priced than other fuel
alternatives
such
as
CNG and gasoline.
There are over 4,000 LPG refueling sites in the US, more
than
all of
the other alternative fuels combined. Most of these
stations,
however,
are not readily available to consumers on a 24/7 basis.
This is
one of
the reasons why most on-road applications are bi-fuel
vehicles,
which
burn LPG and gasoline.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_density.svg

You will notice that the Lion battery is way down near
0,0.

The Lion battery's days are numbered. Better
technology is
just
around
the corner.

They are working on the heat problem. They haven't come
up with
anything
better, NiMh isn't any better. The plastic batteries
are not
ready for
prime time. And the ceramic batteries are not cost
effective to
manufacture.

LPG is NOT higher priced than gasoline.

By what measure?

Cost.

Cost per gallon? Cost per pound? Engineers are supposed to be
precise
and un ambiguous. So far you ain't doin so good.

Does it matter? Considering the current respective costs,
cheaper is
cheaper.

At this time it is cheaper per gallon.

At this time it is cheaper per pound.

At this time it is cheaper in cost per distance covered.

At this time it is cheaper in BTU consumed.

It is cheaper to use as a fuel.
----------------------------------------
Cost per MPG? LPG is about $3+ around here.

$3 ? It costs $60 to fill a 20# grill tank? Holy crap! I can
get one
filled, retail, for a little over $14.00, including tax.

I buy 33# for about the same price including tax, delivered.
(This
company won't do consumer tanks.) Who knows what the stuff
really
costs? And what the markup is.


-----------------------------
You seemed to be Math challenged. $3 a gallon is not $3 a
pound.
Around
here the tank exchange is about $18 and they are not full fill.

Where is the benefit of tank exchange when propane stations seem
to be
everywhere?


The EPA makes it difficult for new distributors to put above
ground
tanks, and filling stations have lots of other regulations... But
almost
any retailer can make room for a locked 10x10 foot cage with
ready to
go, filled tanks...

I like the convenience of having the attendant thae the tank out
of my
trunk, fill it, and put it back, * full*.


Yeah, I like the convienience of driving up to Home Depot, give
them the
old tank, and get a new filled one.. No waiting for anyone to fill
anything. No huge tanks taking up half the parking lot, etc...

I'll have to time the guy filling my tank next time, I can't
imagine it
taking more than a minute.


In a perfect world, yes... We have several stations around here and I
stil use them but it's not as easy. You pull in and grab your tank
and
walk it out back where the filling station is. At least around
here it
is usually off in a corner somewhere with a good buffer zone, locked
fence, locked nozzle etc... Then you go inside and wait for the
attendant to free up, anywhere from 30 seconds to five minutes before
you go out to unlock the gate, unlock the nozzle, zero the scale,
purge
the tank, fill and weigh the tank, wait for the guy to fill three
more
tanks from others who pulled in while you were filling (we obviously
don't have filling stations on every corner here like you do), and
carry
your tank back to your car, go in and pay.... I just don't see why
you
won't accept that it's easier to pull up to the pen, pull out a full
tank and pay for it inside... unless of course you are another Plume
type character that just want's to argue for the sake of arguing...

I can get my tank filled at my local hardware, 20# worth, quicker
than I
can get one replaced and payed for at Home Depot or just about
anywhere.
AND, I get the real 20#, not 15. By the way, you don't "purge" the
tank.

This is turning into a really stupid thread.


Cause some people can't be wrong... and if they are they argue even
more. It's what they are here for, I can't imagine the childhood of such
dim-witted folks...

Are you thinking that you are really getting 20# at the exchange. READ.
They state 15#.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


They lowered the amount to keep the price the same when the price of
Propane increased. Marketing 101. You may really be getting less, and
maybe your tank is almost empty and not fully depleted. But just like
buying bread at the market for 5x what you could make it yourself, it is
the convenience.


Who cares how many pounds are in there, as long as you are paying at or
about the same price for it per pound...

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

On 3/12/2012 1:11 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/12/2012 1:02 PM, Califbill wrote:
"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article , says...

On 3/11/2012 5:51 PM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/11/2012 1:07 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In , says...

On 3/11/2012 10:23 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/11/2012 10:14 AM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/11/2012 8:27 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/10/2012 11:48 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/10/2012 11:28 PM, Califbill wrote:
"Oscar" wrote in message
.com...

On 3/8/2012 11:15 PM, Califbill wrote:
wrote in message
...

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:53:44 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:25:15 -0500, wrote:

On 3/7/2012 1:33 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In
web.com,

says...

On 3/7/2012 8:46 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,

says...

In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 18:57:23 -0500,
wrote:

In
,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:00:39 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:36:10 -0500,

wrote:

In ,

says...


http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/











Told you, and you laughed...snerk Sometimes it
pays to
look
at the
world with an open mind...

Has nothing to do with the technology and
everything
to do
with
the
sales.

It has everything to do with the COST of the
technology
tho.

Basically the problem is battery cost vs price.
These things are rich man's toys. If saving money is
your
objective,
buy a Cruze and put the left over $20,000-30,000
toward
gas.

I understand the government will subsidize your
electric
car
purchase
to make that price delta look more attractive but
that does
not
reduce
the cost, it only transfers it to people who can't
afford to
buy
one.


-----------------------------------
Very true. Look at the subsidy for a Tesla. Average
income
of a
Tesla
buyer? $250k. As to technology. In 1919 an
electric car
got 30
miles to
the charge. What does a Volt get? 30 miles. Not a
lot of
technology
improvement in nearly a 100 years. Still down to
battery
technology. Plus
where is the power to charge going to come from?
They
say no
pollution.
What about that coal or oil fired generating plant?

Actually they had a range of about 100 miles, but
you'd
probably
bitch
about the 20 mph top speed, the eisenglass windows,
and no
gasoline
backup.

It appears that the same problems they were having 100
years
ago
with
electric vehicles are the same problems they have
today.


http://inventors.about.com/od/estart...c-Vehicles.htm








The initiation of mass production of internal
combustion
engine
vehicles
by Henry Ford made these vehicles widely available and
affordable in
the
$500 to $1,000 price range. By contrast, the price
of the
less
efficiently produced electric vehicles continued to
rise. In
1912,
an
electric roadster sold for $1,750, while a gasoline
car
sold
for
$650.

I'm waiting on the fuel cell. You people talk like
the
Wright
Brothers
were idiots for not building the 747, first. Maybe
Edison
should
have
invented the halogen bulb, first.

You will notice that the Wright brothers plane runs
on the
same
fuel
that today's 747 runs on.

I don't know where you came up with that gem of
misinformation,
but
it
is demonstrably totally wrong. (Like the rest of your
assertions.)

The response you'll type to this will be possible
because of
all of
the money spent 50+ years ago on the space program,
which a
lot of
people said was idiotic and useless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet

Things change and the gas station as we know it is
on the
same
path
as
the blacksmith at the end of the 19th century.

The fueling station will not change for another 50
years.

You will soon be proven wrong. Look for LPG light
trucks
and
cars in
the next model year or so, with road tractors soon to
follow. It
will
be a small leap to add electrical power.

http://www.extraordinaryroadtrip.org/research-
library/technology/liqufied-petroleum/ad-draw.asp

The drawbacks of LPG include:

In cold conditions, below 32 degrees Fahrenheit,
starting
could
be a
problem because of the low vapor pressure of propane
at low
temperatures.
One gallon of LPG contains less energy than a gallon of
gasoline.
The driving range of a propane vehicle is about 14
percent
lower
than
a
comparable gasoline-powered vehicle.
LPG is generally higher priced than other fuel
alternatives
such
as
CNG and gasoline.
There are over 4,000 LPG refueling sites in the US, more
than
all of
the other alternative fuels combined. Most of these
stations,
however,
are not readily available to consumers on a 24/7 basis.
This is
one of
the reasons why most on-road applications are bi-fuel
vehicles,
which
burn LPG and gasoline.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_density.svg

You will notice that the Lion battery is way down near
0,0.

The Lion battery's days are numbered. Better
technology is
just
around
the corner.

They are working on the heat problem. They haven't come
up with
anything
better, NiMh isn't any better. The plastic batteries
are not
ready for
prime time. And the ceramic batteries are not cost
effective to
manufacture.

LPG is NOT higher priced than gasoline.

By what measure?

Cost.

Cost per gallon? Cost per pound? Engineers are supposed
to be
precise
and un ambiguous. So far you ain't doin so good.

Does it matter? Considering the current respective costs,
cheaper is
cheaper.

At this time it is cheaper per gallon.

At this time it is cheaper per pound.

At this time it is cheaper in cost per distance covered.

At this time it is cheaper in BTU consumed.

It is cheaper to use as a fuel.
----------------------------------------
Cost per MPG? LPG is about $3+ around here.

$3 ? It costs $60 to fill a 20# grill tank? Holy crap! I can
get one
filled, retail, for a little over $14.00, including tax.

I buy 33# for about the same price including tax, delivered.
(This
company won't do consumer tanks.) Who knows what the stuff
really
costs? And what the markup is.


-----------------------------
You seemed to be Math challenged. $3 a gallon is not $3 a
pound.
Around
here the tank exchange is about $18 and they are not full
fill.

Where is the benefit of tank exchange when propane stations
seem
to be
everywhere?


The EPA makes it difficult for new distributors to put above
ground
tanks, and filling stations have lots of other regulations...
But
almost
any retailer can make room for a locked 10x10 foot cage with
ready to
go, filled tanks...

I like the convenience of having the attendant thae the tank out
of my
trunk, fill it, and put it back, * full*.


Yeah, I like the convienience of driving up to Home Depot, give
them the
old tank, and get a new filled one.. No waiting for anyone to fill
anything. No huge tanks taking up half the parking lot, etc...

I'll have to time the guy filling my tank next time, I can't
imagine it
taking more than a minute.


In a perfect world, yes... We have several stations around here
and I
stil use them but it's not as easy. You pull in and grab your tank
and
walk it out back where the filling station is. At least around
here it
is usually off in a corner somewhere with a good buffer zone, locked
fence, locked nozzle etc... Then you go inside and wait for the
attendant to free up, anywhere from 30 seconds to five minutes
before
you go out to unlock the gate, unlock the nozzle, zero the scale,
purge
the tank, fill and weigh the tank, wait for the guy to fill three
more
tanks from others who pulled in while you were filling (we obviously
don't have filling stations on every corner here like you do), and
carry
your tank back to your car, go in and pay.... I just don't see why
you
won't accept that it's easier to pull up to the pen, pull out a full
tank and pay for it inside... unless of course you are another Plume
type character that just want's to argue for the sake of arguing...

I can get my tank filled at my local hardware, 20# worth, quicker
than I
can get one replaced and payed for at Home Depot or just about
anywhere.
AND, I get the real 20#, not 15. By the way, you don't "purge" the
tank.

This is turning into a really stupid thread.


Cause some people can't be wrong... and if they are they argue even
more. It's what they are here for, I can't imagine the childhood of such
dim-witted folks...

Are you thinking that you are really getting 20# at the exchange. READ.
They state 15#.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



They lowered the amount to keep the price the same when the price of
Propane increased. Marketing 101. You may really be getting less, and
maybe your tank is almost empty and not fully depleted. But just like
buying bread at the market for 5x what you could make it yourself, it is
the convenience.


Who cares how many pounds are in there, as long as you are paying at or
about the same price for it per pound...

And how would you determine that? Careful how you answer, now.

--
https://www.mittromney.com/donate/fi...FYwj7AoddxdaaA

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

In article m,

says...

On 3/8/2012 3:54 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,
says...

On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 13:23:07 -0500, wrote:

On 3/8/2012 12:07 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,
says...

On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 11:03:20 -0500, wrote:

On 3/8/2012 10:29 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 10:04:11 -0500, wrote:

On 3/8/2012 8:49 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:53:44 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:25:15 -0500,
wrote:

On 3/7/2012 1:33 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In
web.com,

says...

On 3/7/2012 8:46 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In
,

says...

In
,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 18:57:23 -0500,

wrote:

In
,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:00:39 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:36:10 -0500,

wrote:

In ,

says...

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed...snerk
Sometimes it pays to look
at the
world with an open mind...

Has nothing to do with the technology and
everything to do with
the
sales.

It has everything to do with the COST of the
technology tho.

Basically the problem is battery cost vs price.
These things are rich man's toys. If saving
money
is
your
objective,
buy a Cruze and put the left over $20,000-30,000
toward gas.

I understand the government will subsidize your
electric car
purchase
to make that price delta look more attractive
but
that does not
reduce
the cost, it only transfers it to people who
can't
afford to buy
one.


-----------------------------------
Very true. Look at the subsidy for a Tesla.
Average income of a
Tesla
buyer? $250k. As to technology. In 1919 an
electric car got 30
miles to
the charge. What does a Volt get? 30 miles.
Not
a
lot of
technology
improvement in nearly a 100 years. Still down
to
battery
technology. Plus
where is the power to charge going to come from?
They say no
pollution.
What about that coal or oil fired generating
plant?

Actually they had a range of about 100 miles, but
you'd probably
bitch
about the 20 mph top speed, the eisenglass
windows,
and no gasoline
backup.

It appears that the same problems they were having
100
years ago
with
electric vehicles are the same problems they have
today.

http://inventors.about.com/od/estart...c-Vehicles.htm

The initiation of mass production of internal
combustion engine
vehicles
by Henry Ford made these vehicles widely available
and
affordable in
the
$500 to $1,000 price range. By contrast, the price
of
the less
efficiently produced electric vehicles continued
to
rise. In 1912,
an
electric roadster sold for $1,750, while a
gasoline
car sold for
$650.

I'm waiting on the fuel cell. You people talk
like
the Wright
Brothers
were idiots for not building the 747, first.
Maybe
Edison should
have
invented the halogen bulb, first.

You will notice that the Wright brothers plane
runs
on
the same fuel
that today's 747 runs on.

I don't know where you came up with that gem of
misinformation, but
it
is demonstrably totally wrong. (Like the rest of
your
assertions.)

The response you'll type to this will be possible
because of all of
the money spent 50+ years ago on the space
program,
which a lot of
people said was idiotic and useless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet

Things change and the gas station as we know it
is
on
the same path
as
the blacksmith at the end of the 19th century.

The fueling station will not change for another 50
years.

You will soon be proven wrong. Look for LPG light
trucks and cars in
the next model year or so, with road tractors soon
to
follow. It will
be a small leap to add electrical power.

http://www.extraordinaryroadtrip.org/research-
library/technology/liqufied-petroleum/ad-draw.asp

The drawbacks of LPG include:

In cold conditions, below 32 degrees
Fahrenheit, starting could
be a
problem because of the low vapor pressure of propane
at
low
temperatures.
One gallon of LPG contains less energy
than
a
gallon of
gasoline.
The driving range of a propane vehicle is about 14
percent lower than
a
comparable gasoline-powered vehicle.
LPG is generally higher priced than other
fuel
alternatives such
as
CNG and gasoline.
There are over 4,000 LPG refueling sites
in
the US, more than
all of
the other alternative fuels combined. Most of these
stations, however,
are not readily available to consumers on a 24/7
basis.
This is one of
the reasons why most on-road applications are
bi-fuel
vehicles, which
burn LPG and gasoline.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_density.svg

You will notice that the Lion battery is way down
near
0,0.

The Lion battery's days are numbered. Better
technology
is just
around
the corner.

They are working on the heat problem. They haven't
come
up with
anything
better, NiMh isn't any better. The plastic batteries
are
not ready for
prime time. And the ceramic batteries are not cost
effective to
manufacture.

LPG is NOT higher priced than gasoline.

By what measure?

Cost.

Cost per gallon? Cost per pound? Engineers are supposed
to
be precise
and un ambiguous. So far you ain't doin so good.

Does it matter? Considering the current respective costs,
cheaper is
cheaper.

At this time it is cheaper per gallon.

At this time it is cheaper per pound.

At this time it is cheaper in cost per distance covered.

At this time it is cheaper in BTU consumed.

It is cheaper to use as a fuel.
----------------------------------------
Cost per MPG? LPG is about $3+ around here.

$3 ? It costs $60 to fill a 20# grill tank? Holy crap! I
can
get one
filled, retail, for a little over $14.00, including tax.

I buy 33# for about the same price including tax,
delivered.
(This
company won't do consumer tanks.) Who knows what the stuff
really
costs? And what the markup is.

Realize that $3 per gallon at 4 1/2 gallons equals $13.50

Maybe we need clarification on whether it is $3.00 per
gallon
or
$3.00
per pound. Normally, one purchases LPG per pound, not
gallon.
Tanks
are size by pound, not gallon. Buying a gallon of product,
without
control of density, is pretty lame.

In any case, when buying small quantities, you are paying
about
twice
what the product can be bought for (retail) in larger
quantities.

Storage tanks are sized in cubic feet.
Propane id dispensed by the gallon from the tank.
Usually, but not always, larger packages of something are
sold
at
lower
per unit prices than smaller packages.

Sure looks like these storage tanks are being sold size by the
gallon.
http://www.storagetankspropane.com/inventory.php

Stationary propane is dispensed from the tank by molecule,
metered
by
the gallon, and charged by the pound. Check with your local
distributor, better yet, just watch them fill a tank. If it
doesn't
have an over-pressure shutoff, they will fill the tank by
weight.
Otherwise, they just pump until it won't take any more.

Yep, agreed. Where I buy mine, they do just exactly that. By
the
way, if
you go to someplace where you exchange your 20# empty for a
"filled"
one, you are getting ripped off. They fill those to 18#
claiming
it's
for safety. I go to Ace where I get a real 20# refill.




Look up OPD. then go discuss what you find with your nitwit
friend.
I'll
leave you two to jerk each other off.

What part of "According to statements appearing on the two
companies?
websites, in 2008 both reduced the amount of propane in their
?full?
tanks sold consumers ..." didn't you get?

OPDs have been required since 2002, so it has nothing to do with
short
fills.

A 20# LPG tank is made to HOLD 20#, that is why it has a tare
weight
stamped on it. There is a void space in excess of the 20# amount
to
account for the 80% fill. OPDs became necessary because people
were
filling 20# tanks IN EXCESS of 20#.

Wow, I see old Oscar is getting all shook up!

Your task was to show that lpg is cheaper to use than gasoline. You
haven't proved your point. I guess I was expecting too much of you.

I don't think he understands the concept.

Sure I do, it's very easy to see that LPG is cheaper per energy unit
than gasoline.


---------------------------------
You get 30% or less mileage per gallon. If a lot of cars started
burning
LPG I bet you would see the price go up at least $0.50 a gallon in state
and
federal motor fuel taxes. Add in those costs and what is the cost per
mile
for fuel?

Nothing but speculation.


-----------------------------------
You do not think that the governments will give up those road taxes?

What I think has no bearing on anything. I can't see into the future.
Again, it's speculation.


---------------------------------------
Very true with you. Probably why you are broke, as you can not see the
future via trends, etc.

Oh, so you are claiming to be able to look into the future, eh? Then you
should be the richest man on earth.

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

In article , says...

On 3/12/2012 1:02 PM, Califbill wrote:
"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article , says...

On 3/11/2012 5:51 PM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/11/2012 1:07 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In , says...

On 3/11/2012 10:23 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/11/2012 10:14 AM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/11/2012 8:27 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/10/2012 11:48 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/10/2012 11:28 PM, Califbill wrote:
"Oscar" wrote in message
.com...

On 3/8/2012 11:15 PM, Califbill wrote:
wrote in message
...

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:53:44 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:25:15 -0500, wrote:

On 3/7/2012 1:33 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In
web.com,

says...

On 3/7/2012 8:46 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,

says...

In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 18:57:23 -0500,
wrote:

In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:00:39 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:36:10 -0500,

wrote:

In ,

says...


http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/










Told you, and you laughed...snerk Sometimes it
pays to
look
at the
world with an open mind...

Has nothing to do with the technology and everything
to do
with
the
sales.

It has everything to do with the COST of the
technology
tho.

Basically the problem is battery cost vs price.
These things are rich man's toys. If saving money is
your
objective,
buy a Cruze and put the left over $20,000-30,000
toward
gas.

I understand the government will subsidize your
electric
car
purchase
to make that price delta look more attractive but
that does
not
reduce
the cost, it only transfers it to people who can't
afford to
buy
one.


-----------------------------------
Very true. Look at the subsidy for a Tesla. Average
income
of a
Tesla
buyer? $250k. As to technology. In 1919 an
electric car
got 30
miles to
the charge. What does a Volt get? 30 miles. Not a
lot of
technology
improvement in nearly a 100 years. Still down to
battery
technology. Plus
where is the power to charge going to come from? They
say no
pollution.
What about that coal or oil fired generating plant?

Actually they had a range of about 100 miles, but
you'd
probably
bitch
about the 20 mph top speed, the eisenglass windows,
and no
gasoline
backup.

It appears that the same problems they were having 100
years
ago
with
electric vehicles are the same problems they have
today.


http://inventors.about.com/od/estart...c-Vehicles.htm








The initiation of mass production of internal
combustion
engine
vehicles
by Henry Ford made these vehicles widely available and
affordable in
the
$500 to $1,000 price range. By contrast, the price
of the
less
efficiently produced electric vehicles continued to
rise. In
1912,
an
electric roadster sold for $1,750, while a gasoline car
sold
for
$650.

I'm waiting on the fuel cell. You people talk like the
Wright
Brothers
were idiots for not building the 747, first. Maybe
Edison
should
have
invented the halogen bulb, first.

You will notice that the Wright brothers plane runs
on the
same
fuel
that today's 747 runs on.

I don't know where you came up with that gem of
misinformation,
but
it
is demonstrably totally wrong. (Like the rest of your
assertions.)

The response you'll type to this will be possible
because of
all of
the money spent 50+ years ago on the space program,
which a
lot of
people said was idiotic and useless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet

Things change and the gas station as we know it is
on the
same
path
as
the blacksmith at the end of the 19th century.

The fueling station will not change for another 50
years.

You will soon be proven wrong. Look for LPG light trucks
and
cars in
the next model year or so, with road tractors soon to
follow. It
will
be a small leap to add electrical power.

http://www.extraordinaryroadtrip.org/research-
library/technology/liqufied-petroleum/ad-draw.asp

The drawbacks of LPG include:

In cold conditions, below 32 degrees Fahrenheit, starting
could
be a
problem because of the low vapor pressure of propane
at low
temperatures.
One gallon of LPG contains less energy than a gallon of
gasoline.
The driving range of a propane vehicle is about 14
percent
lower
than
a
comparable gasoline-powered vehicle.
LPG is generally higher priced than other fuel
alternatives
such
as
CNG and gasoline.
There are over 4,000 LPG refueling sites in the US, more
than
all of
the other alternative fuels combined. Most of these
stations,
however,
are not readily available to consumers on a 24/7 basis.
This is
one of
the reasons why most on-road applications are bi-fuel
vehicles,
which
burn LPG and gasoline.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_density.svg

You will notice that the Lion battery is way down near
0,0.

The Lion battery's days are numbered. Better
technology is
just
around
the corner.

They are working on the heat problem. They haven't come
up with
anything
better, NiMh isn't any better. The plastic batteries
are not
ready for
prime time. And the ceramic batteries are not cost
effective to
manufacture.

LPG is NOT higher priced than gasoline.

By what measure?

Cost.

Cost per gallon? Cost per pound? Engineers are supposed to be
precise
and un ambiguous. So far you ain't doin so good.

Does it matter? Considering the current respective costs,
cheaper is
cheaper.

At this time it is cheaper per gallon.

At this time it is cheaper per pound.

At this time it is cheaper in cost per distance covered.

At this time it is cheaper in BTU consumed.

It is cheaper to use as a fuel.
----------------------------------------
Cost per MPG? LPG is about $3+ around here.

$3 ? It costs $60 to fill a 20# grill tank? Holy crap! I can
get one
filled, retail, for a little over $14.00, including tax.

I buy 33# for about the same price including tax, delivered.
(This
company won't do consumer tanks.) Who knows what the stuff
really
costs? And what the markup is.


-----------------------------
You seemed to be Math challenged. $3 a gallon is not $3 a
pound.
Around
here the tank exchange is about $18 and they are not full fill.

Where is the benefit of tank exchange when propane stations seem
to be
everywhere?


The EPA makes it difficult for new distributors to put above
ground
tanks, and filling stations have lots of other regulations... But
almost
any retailer can make room for a locked 10x10 foot cage with
ready to
go, filled tanks...

I like the convenience of having the attendant thae the tank out
of my
trunk, fill it, and put it back, * full*.


Yeah, I like the convienience of driving up to Home Depot, give
them the
old tank, and get a new filled one.. No waiting for anyone to fill
anything. No huge tanks taking up half the parking lot, etc...

I'll have to time the guy filling my tank next time, I can't
imagine it
taking more than a minute.


In a perfect world, yes... We have several stations around here and I
stil use them but it's not as easy. You pull in and grab your tank
and
walk it out back where the filling station is. At least around
here it
is usually off in a corner somewhere with a good buffer zone, locked
fence, locked nozzle etc... Then you go inside and wait for the
attendant to free up, anywhere from 30 seconds to five minutes before
you go out to unlock the gate, unlock the nozzle, zero the scale,
purge
the tank, fill and weigh the tank, wait for the guy to fill three
more
tanks from others who pulled in while you were filling (we obviously
don't have filling stations on every corner here like you do), and
carry
your tank back to your car, go in and pay.... I just don't see why
you
won't accept that it's easier to pull up to the pen, pull out a full
tank and pay for it inside... unless of course you are another Plume
type character that just want's to argue for the sake of arguing...

I can get my tank filled at my local hardware, 20# worth, quicker
than I
can get one replaced and payed for at Home Depot or just about
anywhere.
AND, I get the real 20#, not 15. By the way, you don't "purge" the
tank.

This is turning into a really stupid thread.


Cause some people can't be wrong... and if they are they argue even
more. It's what they are here for, I can't imagine the childhood of such
dim-witted folks...

Are you thinking that you are really getting 20# at the exchange. READ.
They state 15#.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


They lowered the amount to keep the price the same when the price of
Propane increased. Marketing 101. You may really be getting less, and
maybe your tank is almost empty and not fully depleted. But just like
buying bread at the market for 5x what you could make it yourself, it is
the convenience.


Who cares how many pounds are in there, as long as you are paying at or
about the same price for it per pound...

But you're not. It costs me MORE to go to the big box and exchange a
tank, get 15# than it does to go to my local Ace and get a real 20#.

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

In article , lid says...

On 3/12/2012 6:43 AM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/12/2012 7:00 AM, BAR wrote:

We will be taxed one way or another and the EZ-Pass, www.ezpass.com, is
going to be how you are taxed to drive on state and federal roads in the
future.

I warned last year they were already using trackers in Washington state
to see if they can start taxing by miles, road use, or even time of day
for driving instead of gas... Everyone said I was crazy but gee, I was
right again.

You referred to a wacky proposal in Oregon that was not implemented.
This is not the same.

https://www.ezpassnj.com/static/info/howit.shtml

You need to see the ICC, Inter County Connector, in Montgomery County,
Maryland. There are not toll-booths and you use an EZ-Pass to pay for
your transit of the toll road.

http://www.iccproject.com/tolling-mdta.php

Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way with
EZ-Pass

http://www.495expresslanes.com/using-the-lanes

The future is here.

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

On 3/12/2012 8:24 PM, BAR wrote:
In , lid says...

On 3/12/2012 6:43 AM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/12/2012 7:00 AM, BAR wrote:

We will be taxed one way or another and the EZ-Pass, www.ezpass.com, is
going to be how you are taxed to drive on state and federal roads in the
future.

I warned last year they were already using trackers in Washington state
to see if they can start taxing by miles, road use, or even time of day
for driving instead of gas... Everyone said I was crazy but gee, I was
right again.

You referred to a wacky proposal in Oregon that was not implemented.
This is not the same.

https://www.ezpassnj.com/static/info/howit.shtml

You need to see the ICC, Inter County Connector, in Montgomery County,
Maryland. There are not toll-booths and you use an EZ-Pass to pay for
your transit of the toll road.

http://www.iccproject.com/tolling-mdta.php

Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way with
EZ-Pass

http://www.495expresslanes.com/using-the-lanes

The future is here.



Just like the lazy cops in the next town over. They put scanners on two
squad cars and not two cars a day make them the big bucks cruising
around in the local mall parking lot looking for folks who missed a
parking ticket or two.. I am sure they have a great kickback plan with
the local towing companies too...

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:24:58 -0400, BAR wrote:

Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way with
EZ-Pass

===

EZ Pass has been in NY/CT/NJ for a long time and it works well,
greatly reducing traffic back ups at toll booths, and eliminating a
certain number of government employees. What's not to like?

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

In article ,
says...

On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:24:58 -0400, BAR wrote:

Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way with
EZ-Pass

===

EZ Pass has been in NY/CT/NJ for a long time and it works well,
greatly reducing traffic back ups at toll booths, and eliminating a
certain number of government employees. What's not to like?

They way the idiots in NY have the EZ-Pass only lanes you have to move
all the way over to the right in order to go through them. Nothing like
having the through traffic in the left lane slow down and move over to
the right to go through the EZ-Pass only lanes and then all cross back
over to the left lanes again.

Just wait, EZ-Pass will catch on across the country and will be used to
"tax" motorists on the Interstate high-way system first and then it will
evolve to other roads.

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 00:11:36 -0400, Wayne.B wrote:

On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:24:58 -0400, BAR wrote:

Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way with
EZ-Pass

===

EZ Pass has been in NY/CT/NJ for a long time and it works well,
greatly reducing traffic back ups at toll booths, and eliminating a
certain number of government employees. What's not to like?

The cost of the tolls!

Hell, it costs a small fortune to pull a small trailer. The prices don't double with twice the
axles, they quadruple!

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

On Mar 13, 1:11*am, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:24:58 -0400, BAR wrote:
Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way with
EZ-Pass

===

EZ Pass has been in NY/CT/NJ for a long time and it works well,
greatly reducing traffic back ups at toll booths, and eliminating a
certain number of government employees. * What's not to like?

Up here it's called the MacPass... probably because our two harbour
bridges are named after local Scottish men who distinguished
themselves in politics.
I have one and we can zoom through any lane in the bridge approaches.
They even discontinued the old 'token' system.. now it's either coins
or the MacPass.
BTW.. I hear this pass can also be used on our one & only 'toll road',
the Cobequid Pass.

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 05:28:54 -0700 (PDT), North Star wrote:

On Mar 13, 1:11*am, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:24:58 -0400, BAR wrote:
Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way with
EZ-Pass

===

EZ Pass has been in NY/CT/NJ for a long time and it works well,
greatly reducing traffic back ups at toll booths, and eliminating a
certain number of government employees. * What's not to like?

Up here it's called the MacPass... probably because our two harbour
bridges are named after local Scottish men who distinguished
themselves in politics.
I have one and we can zoom through any lane in the bridge approaches.
They even discontinued the old 'token' system.. now it's either coins
or the MacPass.
BTW.. I hear this pass can also be used on our one & only 'toll road',
the Cobequid Pass.

You say 'it's called the MacPass...'. Is the EZ Pass called the MacPass, or is a different pass
required - one that's called the MacPass?

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:24:58 -0400, BAR wrote:

Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way with
EZ-Pass

===

EZ Pass has been in NY/CT/NJ for a long time and it works well,
greatly reducing traffic back ups at toll booths, and eliminating a
certain number of government employees. What's not to like?

They way the idiots in NY have the EZ-Pass only lanes you have to move
all the way over to the right in order to go through them. Nothing like
having the through traffic in the left lane slow down and move over to
the right to go through the EZ-Pass only lanes and then all cross back
over to the left lanes again.

Just wait, EZ-Pass will catch on across the country and will be used to
"tax" motorists on the Interstate high-way system first and then it will
evolve to other roads.

Still doesn't have anything to do with taxing by the mile. The poster
that said that Washington actually pursued that and test implemented it
was full of ****.

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

On Mar 13, 9:20*am, iBoaterer wrote:
In article ,
says...











In article ,
says...

On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:24:58 -0400, BAR wrote:

Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way with
EZ-Pass

===

EZ Pass has been in NY/CT/NJ for a long time and it works well,
greatly reducing traffic back ups at toll booths, and eliminating a
certain number of government employees. * What's not to like?

They way the idiots in NY have the EZ-Pass only lanes you have to move
all the way over to the right in order to go through them. Nothing like
having the through traffic in the left lane slow down and move over to
the right to go through the EZ-Pass only lanes and then all cross back
over to the left lanes again.

Just wait, EZ-Pass will catch on across the country and will be used to
"tax" motorists on the Interstate high-way system first and then it will
evolve to other roads.

Still doesn't have anything to do with taxing by the mile. The poster
that said that Washington actually pursued that and test implemented it
was full of ****.

http://www.terrapass.com/blog/posts/...tax-experiment

You just can't stand being wrong.. Like I said before, I am glad you
didn't raise me. I get smarter by not letting my ego get in the way...

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

On 3/13/2012 10:27 AM, S I wrote:
On Mar 13, 9:20 am, wrote:
In ,
says...











In ,
says...

On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:24:58 -0400, wrote:

Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way with
EZ-Pass

===

EZ Pass has been in NY/CT/NJ for a long time and it works well,
greatly reducing traffic back ups at toll booths, and eliminating a
certain number of government employees. What's not to like?

They way the idiots in NY have the EZ-Pass only lanes you have to move
all the way over to the right in order to go through them. Nothing like
having the through traffic in the left lane slow down and move over to
the right to go through the EZ-Pass only lanes and then all cross back
over to the left lanes again.

Just wait, EZ-Pass will catch on across the country and will be used to
"tax" motorists on the Interstate high-way system first and then it will
evolve to other roads.

Still doesn't have anything to do with taxing by the mile. The poster
that said that Washington actually pursued that and test implemented it
was full of ****.

Like I said before Plum. If you keep making false statements like that,
everyone will have you plonked. Do you really think lies and uninformed
mistakes are going to help you change minds here?


http://www.terrapass.com/blog/posts/...tax-experiment

You just can't stand being wrong.. Like I said before, I am glad you
didn't raise me. I get smarter by not letting my ego get in the way...

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

On 3/13/12 10:43 AM, JustWait wrote:

Do you really think lies and uninformed
mistakes are going to help you change minds here?


No, just about everyone knows you are an ignorant, hot-headed horse's ass.

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

On 3/13/2012 10:54 AM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/13/12 10:43 AM, JustWait wrote:

Do you really think lies and uninformed
mistakes are going to help you change minds here?


No, just about everyone knows you are an ignorant, hot-headed horse's ass.

A writer with a huge vocabulary ought to be able to do better than that.

--
http://tinyurl.com/75bq9db

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

In article 5a54e12f-318e-469a-b602-
, says...

On Mar 13, 9:20*am, iBoaterer wrote:
In article ,
says...











In article ,
says...

On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:24:58 -0400, BAR wrote:

Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way with
EZ-Pass

===

EZ Pass has been in NY/CT/NJ for a long time and it works well,
greatly reducing traffic back ups at toll booths, and eliminating a
certain number of government employees. * What's not to like?

They way the idiots in NY have the EZ-Pass only lanes you have to move
all the way over to the right in order to go through them. Nothing like
having the through traffic in the left lane slow down and move over to
the right to go through the EZ-Pass only lanes and then all cross back
over to the left lanes again.

Just wait, EZ-Pass will catch on across the country and will be used to
"tax" motorists on the Interstate high-way system first and then it will
evolve to other roads.

Still doesn't have anything to do with taxing by the mile. The poster
that said that Washington actually pursued that and test implemented it
was full of ****.

http://www.terrapass.com/blog/posts/...tax-experiment

You just can't stand being wrong.. Like I said before, I am glad you
didn't raise me. I get smarter by not letting my ego get in the way...

Did you notice that it was VOLUNTARY??? AND what in hell does a mileage
tax have to do with N.J's EZ-Pass as you suggested?

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

In article , says...

On 3/13/2012 10:27 AM, S I wrote:
On Mar 13, 9:20 am, wrote:
In ,
says...











In ,
says...

On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:24:58 -0400, wrote:

Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way with
EZ-Pass

===

EZ Pass has been in NY/CT/NJ for a long time and it works well,
greatly reducing traffic back ups at toll booths, and eliminating a
certain number of government employees. What's not to like?

They way the idiots in NY have the EZ-Pass only lanes you have to move
all the way over to the right in order to go through them. Nothing like
having the through traffic in the left lane slow down and move over to
the right to go through the EZ-Pass only lanes and then all cross back
over to the left lanes again.

Just wait, EZ-Pass will catch on across the country and will be used to
"tax" motorists on the Interstate high-way system first and then it will
evolve to other roads.

Still doesn't have anything to do with taxing by the mile. The poster
that said that Washington actually pursued that and test implemented it
was full of ****.

Like I said before Plum. If you keep making false statements like that,
everyone will have you plonked. Do you really think lies and uninformed
mistakes are going to help you change minds here?


http://www.terrapass.com/blog/posts/...tax-experiment

You just can't stand being wrong.. Like I said before, I am glad you
didn't raise me. I get smarter by not letting my ego get in the way...

Well then, DO SHOW ME ow EZ-Pass has anything to do with a mileage tax
like you suggested?

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

On Mar 13, 9:36*am, Happy John wrote:
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 05:28:54 -0700 (PDT), North Star wrote:
On Mar 13, 1:11*am, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:24:58 -0400, BAR wrote:
Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way with
EZ-Pass

===

EZ Pass has been in NY/CT/NJ for a long time and it works well,
greatly reducing traffic back ups at toll booths, and eliminating a
certain number of government employees. * What's not to like?

Up here it's called the MacPass... probably because our two harbour
bridges are named after local Scottish men who distinguished
themselves in politics.
I have one and we can zoom through any lane in the bridge approaches.
They even discontinued the old 'token' system.. now it's either coins
or the MacPass.
BTW.. I hear this pass can also be used on our one & only 'toll road',
the Cobequid Pass.

You say 'it's called the MacPass...'. Is the EZ Pass called the MacPass, or is a different pass
required - one that's called the MacPass?

Here's all you might want to know about the Macpass...
http://www.macpass.com/

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 09:10:35 -0700 (PDT), North Star wrote:

On Mar 13, 9:36*am, Happy John wrote:
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 05:28:54 -0700 (PDT), North Star wrote:
On Mar 13, 1:11*am, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:24:58 -0400, BAR wrote:
Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way with
EZ-Pass

===

EZ Pass has been in NY/CT/NJ for a long time and it works well,
greatly reducing traffic back ups at toll booths, and eliminating a
certain number of government employees. * What's not to like?

Up here it's called the MacPass... probably because our two harbour
bridges are named after local Scottish men who distinguished
themselves in politics.
I have one and we can zoom through any lane in the bridge approaches.
They even discontinued the old 'token' system.. now it's either coins
or the MacPass.
BTW.. I hear this pass can also be used on our one & only 'toll road',
the Cobequid Pass.

You say 'it's called the MacPass...'. Is the EZ Pass called the MacPass, or is a different pass
required - one that's called the MacPass?

Here's all you might want to know about the Macpass...
http://www.macpass.com/

Don, all I was asking was a yes or no question. Never mind.

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

"JustWait" wrote in message ...

On 3/12/2012 1:02 PM, Califbill wrote:
"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article , says...

On 3/11/2012 5:51 PM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/11/2012 1:07 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In , says...

On 3/11/2012 10:23 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/11/2012 10:14 AM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/11/2012 8:27 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/10/2012 11:48 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/10/2012 11:28 PM, Califbill wrote:
"Oscar" wrote in message
.com...

On 3/8/2012 11:15 PM, Califbill wrote:
wrote in message
...

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:53:44 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:25:15 -0500, wrote:

On 3/7/2012 1:33 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In
web.com,

says...

On 3/7/2012 8:46 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,

says...

In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 18:57:23 -0500,
wrote:

In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:00:39 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:36:10 -0500,

wrote:

In ,

says...


http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/










Told you, and you laughed...snerk Sometimes it
pays to
look
at the
world with an open mind...

Has nothing to do with the technology and everything
to do
with
the
sales.

It has everything to do with the COST of the
technology
tho.

Basically the problem is battery cost vs price.
These things are rich man's toys. If saving money is
your
objective,
buy a Cruze and put the left over $20,000-30,000
toward
gas.

I understand the government will subsidize your
electric
car
purchase
to make that price delta look more attractive but
that does
not
reduce
the cost, it only transfers it to people who can't
afford to
buy
one.


-----------------------------------
Very true. Look at the subsidy for a Tesla. Average
income
of a
Tesla
buyer? $250k. As to technology. In 1919 an
electric car
got 30
miles to
the charge. What does a Volt get? 30 miles. Not a
lot of
technology
improvement in nearly a 100 years. Still down to
battery
technology. Plus
where is the power to charge going to come from? They
say no
pollution.
What about that coal or oil fired generating plant?

Actually they had a range of about 100 miles, but
you'd
probably
bitch
about the 20 mph top speed, the eisenglass windows,
and no
gasoline
backup.

It appears that the same problems they were having 100
years
ago
with
electric vehicles are the same problems they have
today.


http://inventors.about.com/od/estart...c-Vehicles.htm








The initiation of mass production of internal
combustion
engine
vehicles
by Henry Ford made these vehicles widely available and
affordable in
the
$500 to $1,000 price range. By contrast, the price
of the
less
efficiently produced electric vehicles continued to
rise. In
1912,
an
electric roadster sold for $1,750, while a gasoline car
sold
for
$650.

I'm waiting on the fuel cell. You people talk like the
Wright
Brothers
were idiots for not building the 747, first. Maybe
Edison
should
have
invented the halogen bulb, first.

You will notice that the Wright brothers plane runs
on the
same
fuel
that today's 747 runs on.

I don't know where you came up with that gem of
misinformation,
but
it
is demonstrably totally wrong. (Like the rest of your
assertions.)

The response you'll type to this will be possible
because of
all of
the money spent 50+ years ago on the space program,
which a
lot of
people said was idiotic and useless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet

Things change and the gas station as we know it is
on the
same
path
as
the blacksmith at the end of the 19th century.

The fueling station will not change for another 50
years.

You will soon be proven wrong. Look for LPG light trucks
and
cars in
the next model year or so, with road tractors soon to
follow. It
will
be a small leap to add electrical power.

http://www.extraordinaryroadtrip.org/research-
library/technology/liqufied-petroleum/ad-draw.asp

The drawbacks of LPG include:

In cold conditions, below 32 degrees Fahrenheit, starting
could
be a
problem because of the low vapor pressure of propane
at low
temperatures.
One gallon of LPG contains less energy than a gallon of
gasoline.
The driving range of a propane vehicle is about 14
percent
lower
than
a
comparable gasoline-powered vehicle.
LPG is generally higher priced than other fuel
alternatives
such
as
CNG and gasoline.
There are over 4,000 LPG refueling sites in the US, more
than
all of
the other alternative fuels combined. Most of these
stations,
however,
are not readily available to consumers on a 24/7 basis.
This is
one of
the reasons why most on-road applications are bi-fuel
vehicles,
which
burn LPG and gasoline.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_density.svg

You will notice that the Lion battery is way down near
0,0.

The Lion battery's days are numbered. Better
technology is
just
around
the corner.

They are working on the heat problem. They haven't come
up with
anything
better, NiMh isn't any better. The plastic batteries
are not
ready for
prime time. And the ceramic batteries are not cost
effective to
manufacture.

LPG is NOT higher priced than gasoline.

By what measure?

Cost.

Cost per gallon? Cost per pound? Engineers are supposed to be
precise
and un ambiguous. So far you ain't doin so good.

Does it matter? Considering the current respective costs,
cheaper is
cheaper.

At this time it is cheaper per gallon.

At this time it is cheaper per pound.

At this time it is cheaper in cost per distance covered.

At this time it is cheaper in BTU consumed.

It is cheaper to use as a fuel.
----------------------------------------
Cost per MPG? LPG is about $3+ around here.

$3 ? It costs $60 to fill a 20# grill tank? Holy crap! I can
get one
filled, retail, for a little over $14.00, including tax.

I buy 33# for about the same price including tax, delivered.
(This
company won't do consumer tanks.) Who knows what the stuff
really
costs? And what the markup is.


-----------------------------
You seemed to be Math challenged. $3 a gallon is not $3 a
pound.
Around
here the tank exchange is about $18 and they are not full fill.

Where is the benefit of tank exchange when propane stations seem
to be
everywhere?


The EPA makes it difficult for new distributors to put above
ground
tanks, and filling stations have lots of other regulations... But
almost
any retailer can make room for a locked 10x10 foot cage with
ready to
go, filled tanks...

I like the convenience of having the attendant thae the tank out
of my
trunk, fill it, and put it back, * full*.


Yeah, I like the convienience of driving up to Home Depot, give
them the
old tank, and get a new filled one.. No waiting for anyone to fill
anything. No huge tanks taking up half the parking lot, etc...

I'll have to time the guy filling my tank next time, I can't
imagine it
taking more than a minute.


In a perfect world, yes... We have several stations around here and I
stil use them but it's not as easy. You pull in and grab your tank
and
walk it out back where the filling station is. At least around
here it
is usually off in a corner somewhere with a good buffer zone, locked
fence, locked nozzle etc... Then you go inside and wait for the
attendant to free up, anywhere from 30 seconds to five minutes before
you go out to unlock the gate, unlock the nozzle, zero the scale,
purge
the tank, fill and weigh the tank, wait for the guy to fill three
more
tanks from others who pulled in while you were filling (we obviously
don't have filling stations on every corner here like you do), and
carry
your tank back to your car, go in and pay.... I just don't see why
you
won't accept that it's easier to pull up to the pen, pull out a full
tank and pay for it inside... unless of course you are another Plume
type character that just want's to argue for the sake of arguing...

I can get my tank filled at my local hardware, 20# worth, quicker
than I
can get one replaced and payed for at Home Depot or just about
anywhere.
AND, I get the real 20#, not 15. By the way, you don't "purge" the
tank.

This is turning into a really stupid thread.


Cause some people can't be wrong... and if they are they argue even
more. It's what they are here for, I can't imagine the childhood of such
dim-witted folks...

Are you thinking that you are really getting 20# at the exchange. READ.
They state 15#.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


They lowered the amount to keep the price the same when the price of
Propane increased. Marketing 101. You may really be getting less, and
maybe your tank is almost empty and not fully depleted. But just like
buying bread at the market for 5x what you could make it yourself, it is
the convenience.


Who cares how many pounds are in there, as long as you are paying at or
about the same price for it per pound...


----------------------------------------------
Price per pound went up, as they short filled the tanks to avoid changing
the price at the store.

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

In article m,

says...

On 3/8/2012 3:54 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,
says...

On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 13:23:07 -0500, wrote:

On 3/8/2012 12:07 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,
says...

On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 11:03:20 -0500, wrote:

On 3/8/2012 10:29 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 10:04:11 -0500,
wrote:

On 3/8/2012 8:49 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:53:44 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:25:15 -0500,
wrote:

On 3/7/2012 1:33 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In
web.com,

says...

On 3/7/2012 8:46 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In
,

says...

In
,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 18:57:23 -0500,

wrote:

In
,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:00:39 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:36:10 -0500,

wrote:

In ,

says...

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed...snerk
Sometimes it pays to look
at the
world with an open mind...

Has nothing to do with the technology and
everything to do with
the
sales.

It has everything to do with the COST of the
technology tho.

Basically the problem is battery cost vs
price.
These things are rich man's toys. If saving
money
is
your
objective,
buy a Cruze and put the left over
$20,000-30,000
toward gas.

I understand the government will subsidize
your
electric car
purchase
to make that price delta look more attractive
but
that does not
reduce
the cost, it only transfers it to people who
can't
afford to buy
one.


-----------------------------------
Very true. Look at the subsidy for a Tesla.
Average income of a
Tesla
buyer? $250k. As to technology. In 1919 an
electric car got 30
miles to
the charge. What does a Volt get? 30 miles.
Not
a
lot of
technology
improvement in nearly a 100 years. Still down
to
battery
technology. Plus
where is the power to charge going to come
from?
They say no
pollution.
What about that coal or oil fired generating
plant?

Actually they had a range of about 100 miles,
but
you'd probably
bitch
about the 20 mph top speed, the eisenglass
windows,
and no gasoline
backup.

It appears that the same problems they were
having
100
years ago
with
electric vehicles are the same problems they
have
today.

http://inventors.about.com/od/estart...c-Vehicles.htm

The initiation of mass production of internal
combustion engine
vehicles
by Henry Ford made these vehicles widely
available
and
affordable in
the
$500 to $1,000 price range. By contrast, the
price
of
the less
efficiently produced electric vehicles continued
to
rise. In 1912,
an
electric roadster sold for $1,750, while a
gasoline
car sold for
$650.

I'm waiting on the fuel cell. You people talk
like
the Wright
Brothers
were idiots for not building the 747, first.
Maybe
Edison should
have
invented the halogen bulb, first.

You will notice that the Wright brothers plane
runs
on
the same fuel
that today's 747 runs on.

I don't know where you came up with that gem of
misinformation, but
it
is demonstrably totally wrong. (Like the rest of
your
assertions.)

The response you'll type to this will be
possible
because of all of
the money spent 50+ years ago on the space
program,
which a lot of
people said was idiotic and useless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet

Things change and the gas station as we know it
is
on
the same path
as
the blacksmith at the end of the 19th century.

The fueling station will not change for another
50
years.

You will soon be proven wrong. Look for LPG light
trucks and cars in
the next model year or so, with road tractors
soon
to
follow. It will
be a small leap to add electrical power.

http://www.extraordinaryroadtrip.org/research-
library/technology/liqufied-petroleum/ad-draw.asp

The drawbacks of LPG include:

In cold conditions, below 32 degrees
Fahrenheit, starting could
be a
problem because of the low vapor pressure of
propane
at
low
temperatures.
One gallon of LPG contains less energy
than
a
gallon of
gasoline.
The driving range of a propane vehicle is about 14
percent lower than
a
comparable gasoline-powered vehicle.
LPG is generally higher priced than
other
fuel
alternatives such
as
CNG and gasoline.
There are over 4,000 LPG refueling sites
in
the US, more than
all of
the other alternative fuels combined. Most of
these
stations, however,
are not readily available to consumers on a 24/7
basis.
This is one of
the reasons why most on-road applications are
bi-fuel
vehicles, which
burn LPG and gasoline.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_density.svg

You will notice that the Lion battery is way
down
near
0,0.

The Lion battery's days are numbered. Better
technology
is just
around
the corner.

They are working on the heat problem. They haven't
come
up with
anything
better, NiMh isn't any better. The plastic
batteries
are
not ready for
prime time. And the ceramic batteries are not cost
effective to
manufacture.

LPG is NOT higher priced than gasoline.

By what measure?

Cost.

Cost per gallon? Cost per pound? Engineers are
supposed
to
be precise
and un ambiguous. So far you ain't doin so good.

Does it matter? Considering the current respective
costs,
cheaper is
cheaper.

At this time it is cheaper per gallon.

At this time it is cheaper per pound.

At this time it is cheaper in cost per distance
covered.

At this time it is cheaper in BTU consumed.

It is cheaper to use as a fuel.
----------------------------------------
Cost per MPG? LPG is about $3+ around here.

$3 ? It costs $60 to fill a 20# grill tank? Holy crap!
I
can
get one
filled, retail, for a little over $14.00, including tax.

I buy 33# for about the same price including tax,
delivered.
(This
company won't do consumer tanks.) Who knows what the
stuff
really
costs? And what the markup is.

Realize that $3 per gallon at 4 1/2 gallons equals $13.50

Maybe we need clarification on whether it is $3.00 per
gallon
or
$3.00
per pound. Normally, one purchases LPG per pound, not
gallon.
Tanks
are size by pound, not gallon. Buying a gallon of product,
without
control of density, is pretty lame.

In any case, when buying small quantities, you are paying
about
twice
what the product can be bought for (retail) in larger
quantities.

Storage tanks are sized in cubic feet.
Propane id dispensed by the gallon from the tank.
Usually, but not always, larger packages of something are
sold
at
lower
per unit prices than smaller packages.

Sure looks like these storage tanks are being sold size by
the
gallon.
http://www.storagetankspropane.com/inventory.php

Stationary propane is dispensed from the tank by molecule,
metered
by
the gallon, and charged by the pound. Check with your local
distributor, better yet, just watch them fill a tank. If it
doesn't
have an over-pressure shutoff, they will fill the tank by
weight.
Otherwise, they just pump until it won't take any more.

Yep, agreed. Where I buy mine, they do just exactly that. By
the
way, if
you go to someplace where you exchange your 20# empty for a
"filled"
one, you are getting ripped off. They fill those to 18#
claiming
it's
for safety. I go to Ace where I get a real 20# refill.




Look up OPD. then go discuss what you find with your nitwit
friend.
I'll
leave you two to jerk each other off.

What part of "According to statements appearing on the two
companies?
websites, in 2008 both reduced the amount of propane in their
?full?
tanks sold consumers ..." didn't you get?

OPDs have been required since 2002, so it has nothing to do
with
short
fills.

A 20# LPG tank is made to HOLD 20#, that is why it has a tare
weight
stamped on it. There is a void space in excess of the 20#
amount
to
account for the 80% fill. OPDs became necessary because people
were
filling 20# tanks IN EXCESS of 20#.

Wow, I see old Oscar is getting all shook up!

Your task was to show that lpg is cheaper to use than gasoline.
You
haven't proved your point. I guess I was expecting too much of
you.

I don't think he understands the concept.

Sure I do, it's very easy to see that LPG is cheaper per energy unit
than gasoline.


---------------------------------
You get 30% or less mileage per gallon. If a lot of cars started
burning
LPG I bet you would see the price go up at least $0.50 a gallon in
state
and
federal motor fuel taxes. Add in those costs and what is the cost per
mile
for fuel?

Nothing but speculation.


-----------------------------------
You do not think that the governments will give up those road taxes?

What I think has no bearing on anything. I can't see into the future.
Again, it's speculation.


---------------------------------------
Very true with you. Probably why you are broke, as you can not see the
future via trends, etc.

Oh, so you are claiming to be able to look into the future, eh? Then you
should be the richest man on earth.


---------------------------------------------------
Nope, but you can see trends and move your investments to protect them or
make better money. Like Bonds. Bad investment now as the rates are so low,
they can only go up. And unless you are going to buy and hold until
maturity, you are going to lose money selling the bond.

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

"Happy John" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 00:11:36 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:24:58 -0400, BAR wrote:

Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way with
EZ-Pass

===

EZ Pass has been in NY/CT/NJ for a long time and it works well,
greatly reducing traffic back ups at toll booths, and eliminating a
certain number of government employees. What's not to like?

The cost of the tolls!

Hell, it costs a small fortune to pull a small trailer. The prices don't
double with twice the
axles, they quadruple!


Very correct. Costs $5 for a car or pickup to cross any of the San
Francisco bay bridges (except the Golden Gate, different bridge authority)
and $20 to tow my tandem axle boat trailer across the same bridge. My boat
and trailer weigh 1/2 my trucks weight.

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

"Happy John" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 05:28:54 -0700 (PDT), North Star
wrote:

On Mar 13, 1:11 am, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:24:58 -0400, BAR wrote:
Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way with
EZ-Pass

===

EZ Pass has been in NY/CT/NJ for a long time and it works well,
greatly reducing traffic back ups at toll booths, and eliminating a
certain number of government employees. What's not to like?

Up here it's called the MacPass... probably because our two harbour
bridges are named after local Scottish men who distinguished
themselves in politics.
I have one and we can zoom through any lane in the bridge approaches.
They even discontinued the old 'token' system.. now it's either coins
or the MacPass.
BTW.. I hear this pass can also be used on our one & only 'toll road',
the Cobequid Pass.

You say 'it's called the MacPass...'. Is the EZ Pass called the MacPass, or
is a different pass
required - one that's called the MacPass?


--------------------------------
In California is know as Fasttrak. Good on bridges, toll roads and some HOV
lanes you can pay and drive with less than the required minimum. I think
they are all the same thing, different names.

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

In article m,

says...

On 3/8/2012 3:54 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,
says...

On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 13:23:07 -0500, wrote:

On 3/8/2012 12:07 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,
says...

On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 11:03:20 -0500, wrote:

On 3/8/2012 10:29 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 10:04:11 -0500,
wrote:

On 3/8/2012 8:49 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:53:44 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:25:15 -0500,
wrote:

On 3/7/2012 1:33 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In
web.com,

says...

On 3/7/2012 8:46 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In
,

says...

In
,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 18:57:23 -0500,

wrote:

In
,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:00:39 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:36:10 -0500,

wrote:

In ,

says...

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed...snerk
Sometimes it pays to look
at the
world with an open mind...

Has nothing to do with the technology and
everything to do with
the
sales.

It has everything to do with the COST of the
technology tho.

Basically the problem is battery cost vs
price.
These things are rich man's toys. If saving
money
is
your
objective,
buy a Cruze and put the left over
$20,000-30,000
toward gas.

I understand the government will subsidize
your
electric car
purchase
to make that price delta look more attractive
but
that does not
reduce
the cost, it only transfers it to people who
can't
afford to buy
one.


-----------------------------------
Very true. Look at the subsidy for a Tesla.
Average income of a
Tesla
buyer? $250k. As to technology. In 1919 an
electric car got 30
miles to
the charge. What does a Volt get? 30 miles.
Not
a
lot of
technology
improvement in nearly a 100 years. Still down
to
battery
technology. Plus
where is the power to charge going to come
from?
They say no
pollution.
What about that coal or oil fired generating
plant?

Actually they had a range of about 100 miles,
but
you'd probably
bitch
about the 20 mph top speed, the eisenglass
windows,
and no gasoline
backup.

It appears that the same problems they were
having
100
years ago
with
electric vehicles are the same problems they
have
today.

http://inventors.about.com/od/estart...c-Vehicles.htm

The initiation of mass production of internal
combustion engine
vehicles
by Henry Ford made these vehicles widely
available
and
affordable in
the
$500 to $1,000 price range. By contrast, the
price
of
the less
efficiently produced electric vehicles continued
to
rise. In 1912,
an
electric roadster sold for $1,750, while a
gasoline
car sold for
$650.

I'm waiting on the fuel cell. You people talk
like
the Wright
Brothers
were idiots for not building the 747, first.
Maybe
Edison should
have
invented the halogen bulb, first.

You will notice that the Wright brothers plane
runs
on
the same fuel
that today's 747 runs on.

I don't know where you came up with that gem of
misinformation, but
it
is demonstrably totally wrong. (Like the rest of
your
assertions.)

The response you'll type to this will be
possible
because of all of
the money spent 50+ years ago on the space
program,
which a lot of
people said was idiotic and useless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet

Things change and the gas station as we know it
is
on
the same path
as
the blacksmith at the end of the 19th century.

The fueling station will not change for another
50
years.

You will soon be proven wrong. Look for LPG light
trucks and cars in
the next model year or so, with road tractors
soon
to
follow. It will
be a small leap to add electrical power.

http://www.extraordinaryroadtrip.org/research-
library/technology/liqufied-petroleum/ad-draw.asp

The drawbacks of LPG include:

In cold conditions, below 32 degrees
Fahrenheit, starting could
be a
problem because of the low vapor pressure of
propane
at
low
temperatures.
One gallon of LPG contains less energy
than
a
gallon of
gasoline.
The driving range of a propane vehicle is about 14
percent lower than
a
comparable gasoline-powered vehicle.
LPG is generally higher priced than
other
fuel
alternatives such
as
CNG and gasoline.
There are over 4,000 LPG refueling sites
in
the US, more than
all of
the other alternative fuels combined. Most of
these
stations, however,
are not readily available to consumers on a 24/7
basis.
This is one of
the reasons why most on-road applications are
bi-fuel
vehicles, which
burn LPG and gasoline.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_density.svg

You will notice that the Lion battery is way
down
near
0,0.

The Lion battery's days are numbered. Better
technology
is just
around
the corner.

They are working on the heat problem. They haven't
come
up with
anything
better, NiMh isn't any better. The plastic
batteries
are
not ready for
prime time. And the ceramic batteries are not cost
effective to
manufacture.

LPG is NOT higher priced than gasoline.

By what measure?

Cost.

Cost per gallon? Cost per pound? Engineers are
supposed
to
be precise
and un ambiguous. So far you ain't doin so good.

Does it matter? Considering the current respective
costs,
cheaper is
cheaper.

At this time it is cheaper per gallon.

At this time it is cheaper per pound.

At this time it is cheaper in cost per distance
covered.

At this time it is cheaper in BTU consumed.

It is cheaper to use as a fuel.
----------------------------------------
Cost per MPG? LPG is about $3+ around here.

$3 ? It costs $60 to fill a 20# grill tank? Holy crap!
I
can
get one
filled, retail, for a little over $14.00, including tax.

I buy 33# for about the same price including tax,
delivered.
(This
company won't do consumer tanks.) Who knows what the
stuff
really
costs? And what the markup is.

Realize that $3 per gallon at 4 1/2 gallons equals $13.50

Maybe we need clarification on whether it is $3.00 per
gallon
or
$3.00
per pound. Normally, one purchases LPG per pound, not
gallon.
Tanks
are size by pound, not gallon. Buying a gallon of product,
without
control of density, is pretty lame.

In any case, when buying small quantities, you are paying
about
twice
what the product can be bought for (retail) in larger
quantities.

Storage tanks are sized in cubic feet.
Propane id dispensed by the gallon from the tank.
Usually, but not always, larger packages of something are
sold
at
lower
per unit prices than smaller packages.

Sure looks like these storage tanks are being sold size by
the
gallon.
http://www.storagetankspropane.com/inventory.php

Stationary propane is dispensed from the tank by molecule,
metered
by
the gallon, and charged by the pound. Check with your local
distributor, better yet, just watch them fill a tank. If it
doesn't
have an over-pressure shutoff, they will fill the tank by
weight.
Otherwise, they just pump until it won't take any more.

Yep, agreed. Where I buy mine, they do just exactly that. By
the
way, if
you go to someplace where you exchange your 20# empty for a
"filled"
one, you are getting ripped off. They fill those to 18#
claiming
it's
for safety. I go to Ace where I get a real 20# refill.




Look up OPD. then go discuss what you find with your nitwit
friend.
I'll
leave you two to jerk each other off.

What part of "According to statements appearing on the two
companies?
websites, in 2008 both reduced the amount of propane in their
?full?
tanks sold consumers ..." didn't you get?

OPDs have been required since 2002, so it has nothing to do
with
short
fills.

A 20# LPG tank is made to HOLD 20#, that is why it has a tare
weight
stamped on it. There is a void space in excess of the 20#
amount
to
account for the 80% fill. OPDs became necessary because people
were
filling 20# tanks IN EXCESS of 20#.

Wow, I see old Oscar is getting all shook up!

Your task was to show that lpg is cheaper to use than gasoline.
You
haven't proved your point. I guess I was expecting too much of
you.

I don't think he understands the concept.

Sure I do, it's very easy to see that LPG is cheaper per energy unit
than gasoline.


---------------------------------
You get 30% or less mileage per gallon. If a lot of cars started
burning
LPG I bet you would see the price go up at least $0.50 a gallon in
state
and
federal motor fuel taxes. Add in those costs and what is the cost per
mile
for fuel?

Nothing but speculation.


-----------------------------------
You do not think that the governments will give up those road taxes?

What I think has no bearing on anything. I can't see into the future.
Again, it's speculation.


---------------------------------------
Very true with you. Probably why you are broke, as you can not see the
future via trends, etc.

Oh, so you are claiming to be able to look into the future, eh? Then you
should be the richest man on earth.


---------------------------------------------------
Nope, but you can see trends and move your investments to protect them or
make better money. Like Bonds. Bad investment now as the rates are so low,
they can only go up. And unless you are going to buy and hold until
maturity, you are going to lose money selling the bond.

That's called common sense.

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

On Mar 13, 1:31*pm, Happy John wrote:
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 09:10:35 -0700 (PDT), North Star wrote:
On Mar 13, 9:36*am, Happy John wrote:
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 05:28:54 -0700 (PDT), North Star wrote:
On Mar 13, 1:11*am, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:24:58 -0400, BAR wrote:
Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way with
EZ-Pass

===

EZ Pass has been in NY/CT/NJ for a long time and it works well,
greatly reducing traffic back ups at toll booths, and eliminating a
certain number of government employees. * What's not to like?

Up here it's called the MacPass... probably because our two harbour
bridges are named after local Scottish men who distinguished
themselves in politics.
I have one and we can zoom through any lane in the bridge approaches.
They even discontinued the old 'token' system.. now it's either coins
or the MacPass.
BTW.. I hear this pass can also be used on our one & only 'toll road',
the Cobequid Pass.

You say 'it's called the MacPass...'. Is the EZ Pass called the MacPass, or is a different pass
required - one that's called the MacPass?

Here's all you might want to know about the Macpass...
http://www.macpass.com/

Don, all I was asking was a yes or no question. Never mind.

Duh!
I've never seen or used an EZ pass... so how can I compare the two?
I'm sure they are similar in some ways but all I was pointing out is
the type of 'electronic payment system' we use up here.
On the other hand.. you probably knew that, eh?

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 10:24:47 -0700 (PDT), North Star wrote:

On Mar 13, 1:31*pm, Happy John wrote:
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 09:10:35 -0700 (PDT), North Star wrote:
On Mar 13, 9:36*am, Happy John wrote:
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 05:28:54 -0700 (PDT), North Star wrote:
On Mar 13, 1:11*am, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:24:58 -0400, BAR wrote:
Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way with
EZ-Pass

===

EZ Pass has been in NY/CT/NJ for a long time and it works well,
greatly reducing traffic back ups at toll booths, and eliminating a
certain number of government employees. * What's not to like?

Up here it's called the MacPass... probably because our two harbour
bridges are named after local Scottish men who distinguished
themselves in politics.
I have one and we can zoom through any lane in the bridge approaches.
They even discontinued the old 'token' system.. now it's either coins
or the MacPass.
BTW.. I hear this pass can also be used on our one & only 'toll road',
the Cobequid Pass.

You say 'it's called the MacPass...'. Is the EZ Pass called the MacPass, or is a different pass
required - one that's called the MacPass?

Here's all you might want to know about the Macpass...
http://www.macpass.com/

Don, all I was asking was a yes or no question. Never mind.

Duh!
I've never seen or used an EZ pass... so how can I compare the two?
I'm sure they are similar in some ways but all I was pointing out is
the type of 'electronic payment system' we use up here.
On the other hand.. you probably knew that, eh?

The topic of discussion was the EZ pass. You said, "Up here it's called the MacPass..."

To what was the 'it's' referring if not the EZ pass?

No one is trying to be a horse's ass here. I simply asked a question. I called you no names,

No, I didn't know 'that'. If I had, I wouldn't have asked you.

Believe it or not, until Harry got all fired up lately, this place has been very peaceful and
sociable for the past couple months. No reason to start the **** up again, unless you feel you just
have to follow in Harry's or Kevin's footsteps.

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 10:23:27 -0700, "Califbill" wrote:

"Happy John" wrote in message
.. .

On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 05:28:54 -0700 (PDT), North Star
wrote:

On Mar 13, 1:11 am, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:24:58 -0400, BAR wrote:
Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way with
EZ-Pass

===

EZ Pass has been in NY/CT/NJ for a long time and it works well,
greatly reducing traffic back ups at toll booths, and eliminating a
certain number of government employees. What's not to like?

Up here it's called the MacPass... probably because our two harbour
bridges are named after local Scottish men who distinguished
themselves in politics.
I have one and we can zoom through any lane in the bridge approaches.
They even discontinued the old 'token' system.. now it's either coins
or the MacPass.
BTW.. I hear this pass can also be used on our one & only 'toll road',
the Cobequid Pass.

You say 'it's called the MacPass...'. Is the EZ Pass called the MacPass, or
is a different pass
required - one that's called the MacPass?


--------------------------------
In California is know as Fasttrak. Good on bridges, toll roads and some HOV
lanes you can pay and drive with less than the required minimum. I think
they are all the same thing, different names.

Well, it would be nice to know if they're all accepted. I'd hate to get pulled over 'cause I busted
a MacPass or Fasttrak with an EZ pass and it was no good! I 'spect the CHIPs out there would get
right on that.

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

On 3/13/2012 11:28 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/13/2012 10:54 AM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/13/12 10:43 AM, JustWait wrote:

Do you really think lies and uninformed
mistakes are going to help you change minds here?


No, just about everyone knows you are an ignorant, hot-headed horse's
ass.

A writer with a huge vocabulary ought to be able to do better than that.


Too bad we don't have one here...

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

On 3/13/2012 5:47 PM, Happy John wrote:
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 10:24:47 -0700 (PDT), North wrote:

On Mar 13, 1:31 pm, Happy wrote:
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 09:10:35 -0700 (PDT), North wrote:
On Mar 13, 9:36 am, Happy wrote:
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 05:28:54 -0700 (PDT), North wrote:
On Mar 13, 1:11 am, wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:24:58 -0400, wrote:
Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way with
EZ-Pass

===

EZ Pass has been in NY/CT/NJ for a long time and it works well,
greatly reducing traffic back ups at toll booths, and eliminating a
certain number of government employees. What's not to like?

Up here it's called the MacPass... probably because our two harbour
bridges are named after local Scottish men who distinguished
themselves in politics.
I have one and we can zoom through any lane in the bridge approaches.
They even discontinued the old 'token' system.. now it's either coins
or the MacPass.
BTW.. I hear this pass can also be used on our one& only 'toll road',
the Cobequid Pass.

You say 'it's called the MacPass...'. Is the EZ Pass called the MacPass, or is a different pass
required - one that's called the MacPass?

Here's all you might want to know about the Macpass...
http://www.macpass.com/

Don, all I was asking was a yes or no question. Never mind.

Duh!
I've never seen or used an EZ pass... so how can I compare the two?
I'm sure they are similar in some ways but all I was pointing out is
the type of 'electronic payment system' we use up here.
On the other hand.. you probably knew that, eh?

The topic of discussion was the EZ pass. You said, "Up here it's called the MacPass..."

To what was the 'it's' referring if not the EZ pass?

No one is trying to be a horse's ass here. I simply asked a question. I called you no names,

No, I didn't know 'that'. If I had, I wouldn't have asked you.

Believe it or not, until Harry got all fired up lately, this place has been very peaceful and
sociable for the past couple months. No reason to start the **** up again, unless you feel you just
have to follow in Harry's or Kevin's footsteps.

It's the only reason he came back...

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

On 3/13/2012 1:23 PM, Califbill wrote:
"Happy John" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 05:28:54 -0700 (PDT), North Star
wrote:

On Mar 13, 1:11 am, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:24:58 -0400, BAR wrote:
Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way
with
EZ-Pass

===

EZ Pass has been in NY/CT/NJ for a long time and it works well,
greatly reducing traffic back ups at toll booths, and eliminating a
certain number of government employees. What's not to like?

Up here it's called the MacPass... probably because our two harbour
bridges are named after local Scottish men who distinguished
themselves in politics.
I have one and we can zoom through any lane in the bridge approaches.
They even discontinued the old 'token' system.. now it's either coins
or the MacPass.
BTW.. I hear this pass can also be used on our one & only 'toll road',
the Cobequid Pass.

You say 'it's called the MacPass...'. Is the EZ Pass called the MacPass,
or is a different pass
required - one that's called the MacPass?


--------------------------------
In California is know as Fasttrak. Good on bridges, toll roads and some
HOV lanes you can pay and drive with less than the required minimum. I
think they are all the same thing, different names.


And none of it is what we were talking about. We were talking about the
program they tried in Oregon, (remember the program old plum said didn't
exist) where each mile is tracked weather toll roads, or secondary roads...

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

On 3/13/2012 1:13 PM, Califbill wrote:
"JustWait" wrote in message ...

On 3/12/2012 1:02 PM, Califbill wrote:
"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article , says...

On 3/11/2012 5:51 PM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/11/2012 1:07 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In , says...

On 3/11/2012 10:23 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/11/2012 10:14 AM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/11/2012 8:27 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/10/2012 11:48 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/10/2012 11:28 PM, Califbill wrote:
"Oscar" wrote in message
.com...

On 3/8/2012 11:15 PM, Califbill wrote:
wrote in message
...

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:53:44 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:25:15 -0500, wrote:

On 3/7/2012 1:33 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In
web.com,

says...

On 3/7/2012 8:46 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,

says...

In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 18:57:23 -0500,
wrote:

In
,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:00:39 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:36:10 -0500,

wrote:

In ,

says...


http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/











Told you, and you laughed...snerk Sometimes it
pays to
look
at the
world with an open mind...

Has nothing to do with the technology and
everything
to do
with
the
sales.

It has everything to do with the COST of the
technology
tho.

Basically the problem is battery cost vs price.
These things are rich man's toys. If saving money is
your
objective,
buy a Cruze and put the left over $20,000-30,000
toward
gas.

I understand the government will subsidize your
electric
car
purchase
to make that price delta look more attractive but
that does
not
reduce
the cost, it only transfers it to people who can't
afford to
buy
one.


-----------------------------------
Very true. Look at the subsidy for a Tesla. Average
income
of a
Tesla
buyer? $250k. As to technology. In 1919 an
electric car
got 30
miles to
the charge. What does a Volt get? 30 miles. Not a
lot of
technology
improvement in nearly a 100 years. Still down to
battery
technology. Plus
where is the power to charge going to come from?
They
say no
pollution.
What about that coal or oil fired generating plant?

Actually they had a range of about 100 miles, but
you'd
probably
bitch
about the 20 mph top speed, the eisenglass windows,
and no
gasoline
backup.

It appears that the same problems they were having 100
years
ago
with
electric vehicles are the same problems they have
today.


http://inventors.about.com/od/estart...c-Vehicles.htm








The initiation of mass production of internal
combustion
engine
vehicles
by Henry Ford made these vehicles widely available and
affordable in
the
$500 to $1,000 price range. By contrast, the price
of the
less
efficiently produced electric vehicles continued to
rise. In
1912,
an
electric roadster sold for $1,750, while a gasoline
car
sold
for
$650.

I'm waiting on the fuel cell. You people talk like
the
Wright
Brothers
were idiots for not building the 747, first. Maybe
Edison
should
have
invented the halogen bulb, first.

You will notice that the Wright brothers plane runs
on the
same
fuel
that today's 747 runs on.

I don't know where you came up with that gem of
misinformation,
but
it
is demonstrably totally wrong. (Like the rest of your
assertions.)

The response you'll type to this will be possible
because of
all of
the money spent 50+ years ago on the space program,
which a
lot of
people said was idiotic and useless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet

Things change and the gas station as we know it is
on the
same
path
as
the blacksmith at the end of the 19th century.

The fueling station will not change for another 50
years.

You will soon be proven wrong. Look for LPG light
trucks
and
cars in
the next model year or so, with road tractors soon to
follow. It
will
be a small leap to add electrical power.

http://www.extraordinaryroadtrip.org/research-
library/technology/liqufied-petroleum/ad-draw.asp

The drawbacks of LPG include:

In cold conditions, below 32 degrees Fahrenheit,
starting
could
be a
problem because of the low vapor pressure of propane
at low
temperatures.
One gallon of LPG contains less energy than a gallon of
gasoline.
The driving range of a propane vehicle is about 14
percent
lower
than
a
comparable gasoline-powered vehicle.
LPG is generally higher priced than other fuel
alternatives
such
as
CNG and gasoline.
There are over 4,000 LPG refueling sites in the US, more
than
all of
the other alternative fuels combined. Most of these
stations,
however,
are not readily available to consumers on a 24/7 basis.
This is
one of
the reasons why most on-road applications are bi-fuel
vehicles,
which
burn LPG and gasoline.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_density.svg

You will notice that the Lion battery is way down near
0,0.

The Lion battery's days are numbered. Better
technology is
just
around
the corner.

They are working on the heat problem. They haven't come
up with
anything
better, NiMh isn't any better. The plastic batteries
are not
ready for
prime time. And the ceramic batteries are not cost
effective to
manufacture.

LPG is NOT higher priced than gasoline.

By what measure?

Cost.

Cost per gallon? Cost per pound? Engineers are supposed
to be
precise
and un ambiguous. So far you ain't doin so good.

Does it matter? Considering the current respective costs,
cheaper is
cheaper.

At this time it is cheaper per gallon.

At this time it is cheaper per pound.

At this time it is cheaper in cost per distance covered.

At this time it is cheaper in BTU consumed.

It is cheaper to use as a fuel.
----------------------------------------
Cost per MPG? LPG is about $3+ around here.

$3 ? It costs $60 to fill a 20# grill tank? Holy crap! I can
get one
filled, retail, for a little over $14.00, including tax.

I buy 33# for about the same price including tax, delivered.
(This
company won't do consumer tanks.) Who knows what the stuff
really
costs? And what the markup is.


-----------------------------
You seemed to be Math challenged. $3 a gallon is not $3 a
pound.
Around
here the tank exchange is about $18 and they are not full
fill.

Where is the benefit of tank exchange when propane stations
seem
to be
everywhere?


The EPA makes it difficult for new distributors to put above
ground
tanks, and filling stations have lots of other regulations...
But
almost
any retailer can make room for a locked 10x10 foot cage with
ready to
go, filled tanks...

I like the convenience of having the attendant thae the tank out
of my
trunk, fill it, and put it back, * full*.


Yeah, I like the convienience of driving up to Home Depot, give
them the
old tank, and get a new filled one.. No waiting for anyone to fill
anything. No huge tanks taking up half the parking lot, etc...

I'll have to time the guy filling my tank next time, I can't
imagine it
taking more than a minute.


In a perfect world, yes... We have several stations around here
and I
stil use them but it's not as easy. You pull in and grab your tank
and
walk it out back where the filling station is. At least around
here it
is usually off in a corner somewhere with a good buffer zone, locked
fence, locked nozzle etc... Then you go inside and wait for the
attendant to free up, anywhere from 30 seconds to five minutes
before
you go out to unlock the gate, unlock the nozzle, zero the scale,
purge
the tank, fill and weigh the tank, wait for the guy to fill three
more
tanks from others who pulled in while you were filling (we obviously
don't have filling stations on every corner here like you do), and
carry
your tank back to your car, go in and pay.... I just don't see why
you
won't accept that it's easier to pull up to the pen, pull out a full
tank and pay for it inside... unless of course you are another Plume
type character that just want's to argue for the sake of arguing...

I can get my tank filled at my local hardware, 20# worth, quicker
than I
can get one replaced and payed for at Home Depot or just about
anywhere.
AND, I get the real 20#, not 15. By the way, you don't "purge" the
tank.

This is turning into a really stupid thread.


Cause some people can't be wrong... and if they are they argue even
more. It's what they are here for, I can't imagine the childhood of such
dim-witted folks...

Are you thinking that you are really getting 20# at the exchange. READ.
They state 15#.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



They lowered the amount to keep the price the same when the price of
Propane increased. Marketing 101. You may really be getting less, and
maybe your tank is almost empty and not fully depleted. But just like
buying bread at the market for 5x what you could make it yourself, it is
the convenience.


Who cares how many pounds are in there, as long as you are paying at or
about the same price for it per pound...


----------------------------------------------
Price per pound went up, as they short filled the tanks to avoid
changing the price at the store.


I was wasting my time with Plum who only wants to turn every sentence
into a argument...

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 05:28:54 -0700 (PDT), North Star wrote:

On Mar 13, 1:11*am, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:24:58 -0400, BAR wrote:
Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way with
EZ-Pass

===

EZ Pass has been in NY/CT/NJ for a long time and it works well,
greatly reducing traffic back ups at toll booths, and eliminating a
certain number of government employees. * What's not to like?

Up here it's called the MacPass... probably because our two harbour
bridges are named after local Scottish men who distinguished
themselves in politics.
I have one and we can zoom through any lane in the bridge approaches.
They even discontinued the old 'token' system.. now it's either coins
or the MacPass.
BTW.. I hear this pass can also be used on our one & only 'toll road',
the Cobequid Pass.

You say 'it's called the MacPass...'. Is the EZ Pass called the MacPass, or is a different pass
required - one that's called the MacPass?

There were some competing units and the EZ-Pass became the standard in
the US North East.

In Virginia while they were switching over from Virginia's ?-Pass to EZ-
Pass people were getting hit for charge on both systems.

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

On 3/13/12 7:39 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/13/2012 11:28 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/13/2012 10:54 AM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/13/12 10:43 AM, JustWait wrote:

Do you really think lies and uninformed
mistakes are going to help you change minds here?


No, just about everyone knows you are an ignorant, hot-headed horse's
ass.

A writer with a huge vocabulary ought to be able to do better than that.


Too bad we don't have one here...


Waste good words in rec.boats? Silly.

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 10:23:27 -0700, "Califbill" wrote:

"Happy John" wrote in message
.. .

On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 05:28:54 -0700 (PDT), North Star
wrote:

On Mar 13, 1:11 am, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:24:58 -0400, BAR wrote:
Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way with
EZ-Pass

===

EZ Pass has been in NY/CT/NJ for a long time and it works well,
greatly reducing traffic back ups at toll booths, and eliminating a
certain number of government employees. What's not to like?

Up here it's called the MacPass... probably because our two harbour
bridges are named after local Scottish men who distinguished
themselves in politics.
I have one and we can zoom through any lane in the bridge approaches.
They even discontinued the old 'token' system.. now it's either coins
or the MacPass.
BTW.. I hear this pass can also be used on our one & only 'toll road',
the Cobequid Pass.

You say 'it's called the MacPass...'. Is the EZ Pass called the MacPass, or
is a different pass
required - one that's called the MacPass?


--------------------------------
In California is know as Fasttrak. Good on bridges, toll roads and some HOV
lanes you can pay and drive with less than the required minimum. I think
they are all the same thing, different names.

Well, it would be nice to know if they're all accepted. I'd hate to get pulled over 'cause I busted
a MacPass or Fasttrak with an EZ pass and it was no good! I 'spect the CHIPs out there would get
right on that.

I believe you would just get a "bill" for the toll and a "fine" for not
having a "device" affixed to your vehicle.

On the ICC in Maryland as long as you have an EZ-Pass associated with
your vehicle's license plate they will just charge your EZ-Pass account
the toll without assessing a "fine".

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

In article m,

says...

On 3/8/2012 3:54 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,
says...

On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 13:23:07 -0500, wrote:

On 3/8/2012 12:07 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,
says...

On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 11:03:20 -0500, wrote:

On 3/8/2012 10:29 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 10:04:11 -0500,
wrote:

On 3/8/2012 8:49 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:53:44 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:25:15 -0500,
wrote:

On 3/7/2012 1:33 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In
web.com,

says...

On 3/7/2012 8:46 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In
,

says...

In
,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 18:57:23 -0500,

wrote:

In
,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:00:39 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:36:10 -0500,

wrote:

In ,

says...

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed...snerk
Sometimes it pays to look
at the
world with an open mind...

Has nothing to do with the technology and
everything to do with
the
sales.

It has everything to do with the COST of the
technology tho.

Basically the problem is battery cost vs
price.
These things are rich man's toys. If saving
money
is
your
objective,
buy a Cruze and put the left over
$20,000-30,000
toward gas.

I understand the government will subsidize
your
electric car
purchase
to make that price delta look more attractive
but
that does not
reduce
the cost, it only transfers it to people who
can't
afford to buy
one.


-----------------------------------
Very true. Look at the subsidy for a Tesla.
Average income of a
Tesla
buyer? $250k. As to technology. In 1919 an
electric car got 30
miles to
the charge. What does a Volt get? 30 miles.
Not
a
lot of
technology
improvement in nearly a 100 years. Still down
to
battery
technology. Plus
where is the power to charge going to come
from?
They say no
pollution.
What about that coal or oil fired generating
plant?

Actually they had a range of about 100 miles,
but
you'd probably
bitch
about the 20 mph top speed, the eisenglass
windows,
and no gasoline
backup.

It appears that the same problems they were
having
100
years ago
with
electric vehicles are the same problems they
have
today.

http://inventors.about.com/od/estart...c-Vehicles.htm

The initiation of mass production of internal
combustion engine
vehicles
by Henry Ford made these vehicles widely
available
and
affordable in
the
$500 to $1,000 price range. By contrast, the
price
of
the less
efficiently produced electric vehicles continued
to
rise. In 1912,
an
electric roadster sold for $1,750, while a
gasoline
car sold for
$650.

I'm waiting on the fuel cell. You people talk
like
the Wright
Brothers
were idiots for not building the 747, first.
Maybe
Edison should
have
invented the halogen bulb, first.

You will notice that the Wright brothers plane
runs
on
the same fuel
that today's 747 runs on.

I don't know where you came up with that gem of
misinformation, but
it
is demonstrably totally wrong. (Like the rest of
your
assertions.)

The response you'll type to this will be
possible
because of all of
the money spent 50+ years ago on the space
program,
which a lot of
people said was idiotic and useless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet

Things change and the gas station as we know it
is
on
the same path
as
the blacksmith at the end of the 19th century.

The fueling station will not change for another
50
years.

You will soon be proven wrong. Look for LPG light
trucks and cars in
the next model year or so, with road tractors
soon
to
follow. It will
be a small leap to add electrical power.

http://www.extraordinaryroadtrip.org/research-
library/technology/liqufied-petroleum/ad-draw.asp

The drawbacks of LPG include:

In cold conditions, below 32 degrees
Fahrenheit, starting could
be a
problem because of the low vapor pressure of
propane
at
low
temperatures.
One gallon of LPG contains less energy
than
a
gallon of
gasoline.
The driving range of a propane vehicle is about 14
percent lower than
a
comparable gasoline-powered vehicle.
LPG is generally higher priced than
other
fuel
alternatives such
as
CNG and gasoline.
There are over 4,000 LPG refueling sites
in
the US, more than
all of
the other alternative fuels combined. Most of
these
stations, however,
are not readily available to consumers on a 24/7
basis.
This is one of
the reasons why most on-road applications are
bi-fuel
vehicles, which
burn LPG and gasoline.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_density.svg

You will notice that the Lion battery is way
down
near
0,0.

The Lion battery's days are numbered. Better
technology
is just
around
the corner.

They are working on the heat problem. They haven't
come
up with
anything
better, NiMh isn't any better. The plastic
batteries
are
not ready for
prime time. And the ceramic batteries are not cost
effective to
manufacture.

LPG is NOT higher priced than gasoline.

By what measure?

Cost.

Cost per gallon? Cost per pound? Engineers are
supposed
to
be precise
and un ambiguous. So far you ain't doin so good.

Does it matter? Considering the current respective
costs,
cheaper is
cheaper.

At this time it is cheaper per gallon.

At this time it is cheaper per pound.

At this time it is cheaper in cost per distance
covered.

At this time it is cheaper in BTU consumed.

It is cheaper to use as a fuel.
----------------------------------------
Cost per MPG? LPG is about $3+ around here.

$3 ? It costs $60 to fill a 20# grill tank? Holy crap!
I
can
get one
filled, retail, for a little over $14.00, including tax.

I buy 33# for about the same price including tax,
delivered.
(This
company won't do consumer tanks.) Who knows what the
stuff
really
costs? And what the markup is.

Realize that $3 per gallon at 4 1/2 gallons equals $13.50

Maybe we need clarification on whether it is $3.00 per
gallon
or
$3.00
per pound. Normally, one purchases LPG per pound, not
gallon.
Tanks
are size by pound, not gallon. Buying a gallon of product,
without
control of density, is pretty lame.

In any case, when buying small quantities, you are paying
about
twice
what the product can be bought for (retail) in larger
quantities.

Storage tanks are sized in cubic feet.
Propane id dispensed by the gallon from the tank.
Usually, but not always, larger packages of something are
sold
at
lower
per unit prices than smaller packages.

Sure looks like these storage tanks are being sold size by
the
gallon.
http://www.storagetankspropane.com/inventory.php

Stationary propane is dispensed from the tank by molecule,
metered
by
the gallon, and charged by the pound. Check with your local
distributor, better yet, just watch them fill a tank. If it
doesn't
have an over-pressure shutoff, they will fill the tank by
weight.
Otherwise, they just pump until it won't take any more.

Yep, agreed. Where I buy mine, they do just exactly that. By
the
way, if
you go to someplace where you exchange your 20# empty for a
"filled"
one, you are getting ripped off. They fill those to 18#
claiming
it's
for safety. I go to Ace where I get a real 20# refill.




Look up OPD. then go discuss what you find with your nitwit
friend.
I'll
leave you two to jerk each other off.

What part of "According to statements appearing on the two
companies?
websites, in 2008 both reduced the amount of propane in their
?full?
tanks sold consumers ..." didn't you get?

OPDs have been required since 2002, so it has nothing to do
with
short
fills.

A 20# LPG tank is made to HOLD 20#, that is why it has a tare
weight
stamped on it. There is a void space in excess of the 20#
amount
to
account for the 80% fill. OPDs became necessary because people
were
filling 20# tanks IN EXCESS of 20#.

Wow, I see old Oscar is getting all shook up!

Your task was to show that lpg is cheaper to use than gasoline.
You
haven't proved your point. I guess I was expecting too much of
you.

I don't think he understands the concept.

Sure I do, it's very easy to see that LPG is cheaper per energy unit
than gasoline.


---------------------------------
You get 30% or less mileage per gallon. If a lot of cars started
burning
LPG I bet you would see the price go up at least $0.50 a gallon in
state
and
federal motor fuel taxes. Add in those costs and what is the cost per
mile
for fuel?

Nothing but speculation.


-----------------------------------
You do not think that the governments will give up those road taxes?

What I think has no bearing on anything. I can't see into the future.
Again, it's speculation.


---------------------------------------
Very true with you. Probably why you are broke, as you can not see the
future via trends, etc.

Oh, so you are claiming to be able to look into the future, eh? Then you
should be the richest man on earth.


---------------------------------------------------
Nope, but you can see trends and move your investments to protect them or
make better money. Like Bonds. Bad investment now as the rates are so low,
they can only go up. And unless you are going to buy and hold until
maturity, you are going to lose money selling the bond.

iBoater is going to live off of what ever Social Security provides him.

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

In article , says...

On 3/13/2012 1:23 PM, Califbill wrote:
"Happy John" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 05:28:54 -0700 (PDT), North Star
wrote:

On Mar 13, 1:11 am, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:24:58 -0400, BAR wrote:
Virginia's HOT Lanes on I-495 will be collecting tolls the same way
with
EZ-Pass

===

EZ Pass has been in NY/CT/NJ for a long time and it works well,
greatly reducing traffic back ups at toll booths, and eliminating a
certain number of government employees. What's not to like?

Up here it's called the MacPass... probably because our two harbour
bridges are named after local Scottish men who distinguished
themselves in politics.
I have one and we can zoom through any lane in the bridge approaches.
They even discontinued the old 'token' system.. now it's either coins
or the MacPass.
BTW.. I hear this pass can also be used on our one & only 'toll road',
the Cobequid Pass.

You say 'it's called the MacPass...'. Is the EZ Pass called the MacPass,
or is a different pass
required - one that's called the MacPass?


--------------------------------
In California is know as Fasttrak. Good on bridges, toll roads and some
HOV lanes you can pay and drive with less than the required minimum. I
think they are all the same thing, different names.


And none of it is what we were talking about. We were talking about the
program they tried in Oregon, (remember the program old plum said didn't
exist) where each mile is tracked weather toll roads, or secondary roads...

Where did I say it didn't exist, to start with. And you and ONLY you
compared EZ Pass with a VOLUNTARY program in Oregon. One YOU stated was
in Washington, and one that YOU said was being forced upon the citizens.

Told you the Volt was dead...
 

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

In article m,

says...

On 3/8/2012 3:54 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,
says...

On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 13:23:07 -0500, wrote:

On 3/8/2012 12:07 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,
says...

On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 11:03:20 -0500, wrote:

On 3/8/2012 10:29 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 10:04:11 -0500,
wrote:

On 3/8/2012 8:49 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:53:44 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:25:15 -0500,
wrote:

On 3/7/2012 1:33 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In
web.com,

says...

On 3/7/2012 8:46 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In
,

says...

In
,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 18:57:23 -0500,

wrote:

In
,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:00:39 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:36:10 -0500,

wrote:

In ,

says...

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed...snerk
Sometimes it pays to look
at the
world with an open mind...

Has nothing to do with the technology and
everything to do with
the
sales.

It has everything to do with the COST of the
technology tho.

Basically the problem is battery cost vs
price.
These things are rich man's toys. If saving
money
is
your
objective,
buy a Cruze and put the left over
$20,000-30,000
toward gas.

I understand the government will subsidize
your
electric car
purchase
to make that price delta look more attractive
but
that does not
reduce
the cost, it only transfers it to people who
can't
afford to buy
one.


-----------------------------------
Very true. Look at the subsidy for a Tesla.
Average income of a
Tesla
buyer? $250k. As to technology. In 1919 an
electric car got 30
miles to
the charge. What does a Volt get? 30 miles.
Not
a
lot of
technology
improvement in nearly a 100 years. Still down
to
battery
technology. Plus
where is the power to charge going to come
from?
They say no
pollution.
What about that coal or oil fired generating
plant?

Actually they had a range of about 100 miles,
but
you'd probably
bitch
about the 20 mph top speed, the eisenglass
windows,
and no gasoline
backup.

It appears that the same problems they were
having
100
years ago
with
electric vehicles are the same problems they
have
today.

http://inventors.about.com/od/estart...c-Vehicles.htm

The initiation of mass production of internal
combustion engine
vehicles
by Henry Ford made these vehicles widely
available
and
affordable in
the
$500 to $1,000 price range. By contrast, the
price
of
the less
efficiently produced electric vehicles continued
to
rise. In 1912,
an
electric roadster sold for $1,750, while a
gasoline
car sold for
$650.

I'm waiting on the fuel cell. You people talk
like
the Wright
Brothers
were idiots for not building the 747, first.
Maybe
Edison should
have
invented the halogen bulb, first.

You will notice that the Wright brothers plane
runs
on
the same fuel
that today's 747 runs on.

I don't know where you came up with that gem of
misinformation, but
it
is demonstrably totally wrong. (Like the rest of
your
assertions.)

The response you'll type to this will be
possible
because of all of
the money spent 50+ years ago on the space
program,
which a lot of
people said was idiotic and useless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet

Things change and the gas station as we know it
is
on
the same path
as
the blacksmith at the end of the 19th century.

The fueling station will not change for another
50
years.

You will soon be proven wrong. Look for LPG light
trucks and cars in
the next model year or so, with road tractors
soon
to
follow. It will
be a small leap to add electrical power.

http://www.extraordinaryroadtrip.org/research-
library/technology/liqufied-petroleum/ad-draw.asp

The drawbacks of LPG include:

In cold conditions, below 32 degrees
Fahrenheit, starting could
be a
problem because of the low vapor pressure of
propane
at
low
temperatures.
One gallon of LPG contains less energy
than
a
gallon of
gasoline.
The driving range of a propane vehicle is about 14
percent lower than
a
comparable gasoline-powered vehicle.
LPG is generally higher priced than
other
fuel
alternatives such
as
CNG and gasoline.
There are over 4,000 LPG refueling sites
in
the US, more than
all of
the other alternative fuels combined. Most of
these
stations, however,
are not readily available to consumers on a 24/7
basis.
This is one of
the reasons why most on-road applications are
bi-fuel
vehicles, which
burn LPG and gasoline.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_density.svg

You will notice that the Lion battery is way
down
near
0,0.

The Lion battery's days are numbered. Better
technology
is just
around
the corner.

They are working on the heat problem. They haven't
come
up with
anything
better, NiMh isn't any better. The plastic
batteries
are
not ready for
prime time. And the ceramic batteries are not cost
effective to
manufacture.

LPG is NOT higher priced than gasoline.

By what measure?

Cost.

Cost per gallon? Cost per pound? Engineers are
supposed
to
be precise
and un ambiguous. So far you ain't doin so good.

Does it matter? Considering the current respective
costs,
cheaper is
cheaper.

At this time it is cheaper per gallon.

At this time it is cheaper per pound.

At this time it is cheaper in cost per distance
covered.

At this time it is cheaper in BTU consumed.

It is cheaper to use as a fuel.
----------------------------------------
Cost per MPG? LPG is about $3+ around here.

$3 ? It costs $60 to fill a 20# grill tank? Holy crap!
I
can
get one
filled, retail, for a little over $14.00, including tax.

I buy 33# for about the same price including tax,
delivered.
(This
company won't do consumer tanks.) Who knows what the
stuff
really
costs? And what the markup is.

Realize that $3 per gallon at 4 1/2 gallons equals $13.50

Maybe we need clarification on whether it is $3.00 per
gallon
or
$3.00
per pound. Normally, one purchases LPG per pound, not
gallon.
Tanks
are size by pound, not gallon. Buying a gallon of product,
without
control of density, is pretty lame.

In any case, when buying small quantities, you are paying
about
twice
what the product can be bought for (retail) in larger
quantities.

Storage tanks are sized in cubic feet.
Propane id dispensed by the gallon from the tank.
Usually, but not always, larger packages of something are
sold
at
lower
per unit prices than smaller packages.

Sure looks like these storage tanks are being sold size by
the
gallon.
http://www.storagetankspropane.com/inventory.php

Stationary propane is dispensed from the tank by molecule,
metered
by
the gallon, and charged by the pound. Check with your local
distributor, better yet, just watch them fill a tank. If it
doesn't
have an over-pressure shutoff, they will fill the tank by
weight.
Otherwise, they just pump until it won't take any more.

Yep, agreed. Where I buy mine, they do just exactly that. By
the
way, if
you go to someplace where you exchange your 20# empty for a
"filled"
one, you are getting ripped off. They fill those to 18#
claiming
it's
for safety. I go to Ace where I get a real 20# refill.




Look up OPD. then go discuss what you find with your nitwit
friend.
I'll
leave you two to jerk each other off.

What part of "According to statements appearing on the two
companies?
websites, in 2008 both reduced the amount of propane in their
?full?
tanks sold consumers ..." didn't you get?

OPDs have been required since 2002, so it has nothing to do
with
short
fills.

A 20# LPG tank is made to HOLD 20#, that is why it has a tare
weight
stamped on it. There is a void space in excess of the 20#
amount
to
account for the 80% fill. OPDs became necessary because people
were
filling 20# tanks IN EXCESS of 20#.

Wow, I see old Oscar is getting all shook up!

Your task was to show that lpg is cheaper to use than gasoline.
You
haven't proved your point. I guess I was expecting too much of
you.

I don't think he understands the concept.

Sure I do, it's very easy to see that LPG is cheaper per energy unit
than gasoline.


---------------------------------
You get 30% or less mileage per gallon. If a lot of cars started
burning
LPG I bet you would see the price go up at least $0.50 a gallon in
state
and
federal motor fuel taxes. Add in those costs and what is the cost per
mile
for fuel?

Nothing but speculation.


-----------------------------------
You do not think that the governments will give up those road taxes?

What I think has no bearing on anything. I can't see into the future.
Again, it's speculation.


---------------------------------------
Very true with you. Probably why you are broke, as you can not see the
future via trends, etc.

Oh, so you are claiming to be able to look into the future, eh? Then you
should be the richest man on earth.


---------------------------------------------------
Nope, but you can see trends and move your investments to protect them or
make better money. Like Bonds. Bad investment now as the rates are so low,
they can only go up. And unless you are going to buy and hold until
maturity, you are going to lose money selling the bond.

iBoater is going to live off of what ever Social Security provides him.

Really? You know this how?