On 11/16/11 10:57 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 07:31:33 -0500, wrote:

In ,
says...

On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 18:59:18 -0500, X `
wrote:

On 11/15/11 6:36 PM, North Star wrote:
On Nov 15, 4:45 pm, X ` wrote:
One of the hard drives on one of my aging Apple computers has been dying
for a couple of weeks. It finally gave up the ghost yesterday. Called
Apple Care and the tech suggested about four different ways to try to
resuscitate it, to no avail.

So he made an appointment for me at the local Apple store. I showed up,
tech said "go to lunch." Came back 90 minutes later, new hard drive in
machine, running diagnostics.

No charge for labor or parts.

Love it.

Wow! just how old is that computer and was it still under warranty?

Two years next month. When I bought it, I paid about $100 for a three
year extended warranty. It's really nice...if I have a problem, I call
Apple Care on the phone and usually the English speaking person who
answers can work out the difficulty with me doing what is suggested. If
not, the rep makes an appointment for me at the local store.

I just reinstalled my apps and data back on the machine from a backup.

Since most hard drives are warranted for 5 years by the manufacturer
these days that seems like a great deal for Apple. Most computer
problems are caused by bad hard drives. That has been true for a long
time, pretty much since the end of the card reader and open reel tape
drive.

Usually the problems with rotating media is with a lot. You get about
10,000 that are bad and you need to have them replaced. They don't
recall them but, they do work with big commercial customers to get the
lots replaced. The consumer market, Apple is the consumer market, is
left to deal with it on an individual basis.

I never saw patterns like that and we were replacing about 400 drives
a year in Ft Myers.
We had total designs that were flawed and they had work arounds for
them. One particular drive had so much problem with the logic card
that it became a FRU. It saved the customer from losing data, very
important on a machine like an AS/400 where one drive takes out the
whole array.

In the market right now I would say the flawed design is the Western
Digital Caviar drive. That is about 70% of the drive failures I have
had.


I had a choice of drives for my server, so I bought four of these:

Seagate Constellation ES 2 TB Internal hard drive - 300 MBps - 7200 rpm

Internal - 2 TB - Seagate - SATA - SCSI - 7200 rpm
Constellation ES is the fourth generation 3.5-inch drive for enterprise
7200-rpm environments enabling cost-effective, highly efficient
enterprise storage with highest capacities, best-in-class reliability,
leading performance and optimized power and cooling. With its lowest
power consumption and highest temperature tolerance, it optimizes
chassis performance in tiered storage solutions. The only drive offering
a choice of traditional 3Gbps enterprise SATA interface for seamless
enterprise integration or the industry leading 6Gbps SAS enterprise
interface for a more reliable, scalable and sustainable high performance
enterprise solution. Constellation ES drives offer high capacity at 2TB
while providing enterprise robustness for Tier 2/nearline environments.
They are differentiated from 3.5-inch desktop drives by offering
enterprise-class reliability and superior data integrity with a UER of
1E10-15. Enterprise-class rotational vibration tolerance provides robust
protection from chassis and fan vibrations. The drives are offered with
either a 3Gbps SATA interface or a 6Gbps SAS 2.0 interface for superior
data protection at industry-leading speeds.

The drives were recommended by a number of users on the Synology user
forums. So far, no hiccups.

wrote in message ...

On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:09:01 -0500, X ` Man
wrote:

I had a choice of drives for my server, so I bought four of these:

Seagate Constellation ES 2 TB Internal hard drive - 300 MBps - 7200 rpm


Seagate/Maxtor is a pretty good drive


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem with Apple, at least in former days, was you had to buy the
drive from Apple at excessive price. Same frikken drive as on a PC but with
a unique identifier in the SCSI packet. I designed Maxtor drives and they
were the same exact drive except for the identifier. The problem with WD
drives was getting them to be reliable at 7200 rpm. As Jim McCoy, Chairman
of Maxtor when I worked there, stated, anyone can build a 3600 rpm drive,
hard to handle the head flying and control at 7200 rpm. Lots of turbulence
at the extra rpm.

On 11/17/11 9:38 PM, Califbill wrote:
wrote in message ...

On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:09:01 -0500, X ` Man
wrote:

I had a choice of drives for my server, so I bought four of these:

Seagate Constellation ES 2 TB Internal hard drive - 300 MBps - 7200 rpm


Seagate/Maxtor is a pretty good drive


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem with Apple, at least in former days, was you had to buy the
drive from Apple at excessive price. Same frikken drive as on a PC but
with a unique identifier in the SCSI packet. I designed Maxtor drives
and they were the same exact drive except for the identifier. The
problem with WD drives was getting them to be reliable at 7200 rpm. As
Jim McCoy, Chairman of Maxtor when I worked there, stated, anyone can
build a 3600 rpm drive, hard to handle the head flying and control at
7200 rpm. Lots of turbulence at the extra rpm.

That's no longer the case. You can buy drives in many sizes
from many vendors. I could upgrade the drive in my laptop, for example,
in about 10 minutes.

The server I have is made by Synology, not Apple. There is a long list
of recommended drives you can use with it. The device comes "driveless,"
as it were. Took longer to take the four drives out of their packaging
than it did to install them in the server.

"X ` Man" wrote in message
m...

On 11/17/11 9:38 PM, Califbill wrote:
wrote in message ...

On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:09:01 -0500, X ` Man
wrote:

I had a choice of drives for my server, so I bought four of these:

Seagate Constellation ES 2 TB Internal hard drive - 300 MBps - 7200 rpm


Seagate/Maxtor is a pretty good drive


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem with Apple, at least in former days, was you had to buy the
drive from Apple at excessive price. Same frikken drive as on a PC but
with a unique identifier in the SCSI packet. I designed Maxtor drives
and they were the same exact drive except for the identifier. The
problem with WD drives was getting them to be reliable at 7200 rpm. As
Jim McCoy, Chairman of Maxtor when I worked there, stated, anyone can
build a 3600 rpm drive, hard to handle the head flying and control at
7200 rpm. Lots of turbulence at the extra rpm.

That's no longer the case. You can buy drives in many sizes
from many vendors. I could upgrade the drive in my laptop, for example,
in about 10 minutes.

The server I have is made by Synology, not Apple. There is a long list
of recommended drives you can use with it. The device comes "driveless,"
as it were. Took longer to take the four drives out of their packaging
than it did to install them in the server.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
But how many of those 7200 rom drives are reliable? As to lots of vendors,
lots. As to manufacturers, shrinking all the time.

On 11/18/11 12:11 PM, Califbill wrote:
"X ` Man" wrote in message
m...

On 11/17/11 9:38 PM, Califbill wrote:
wrote in message ...

On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:09:01 -0500, X ` Man
wrote:

I had a choice of drives for my server, so I bought four of these:

Seagate Constellation ES 2 TB Internal hard drive - 300 MBps - 7200 rpm


Seagate/Maxtor is a pretty good drive


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The problem with Apple, at least in former days, was you had to buy the
drive from Apple at excessive price. Same frikken drive as on a PC but
with a unique identifier in the SCSI packet. I designed Maxtor drives
and they were the same exact drive except for the identifier. The
problem with WD drives was getting them to be reliable at 7200 rpm. As
Jim McCoy, Chairman of Maxtor when I worked there, stated, anyone can
build a 3600 rpm drive, hard to handle the head flying and control at
7200 rpm. Lots of turbulence at the extra rpm.

That's no longer the case. You can buy drives in many sizes
from many vendors. I could upgrade the drive in my laptop, for example,
in about 10 minutes.

The server I have is made by Synology, not Apple. There is a long list
of recommended drives you can use with it. The device comes "driveless,"
as it were. Took longer to take the four drives out of their packaging
than it did to install them in the server.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
But how many of those 7200 rom drives are reliable? As to lots of
vendors, lots. As to manufacturers, shrinking all the time.


How many decades ago were you designing drives? Isn't it possible drives
have gotten more reliable? In my last Windows PC, I had a 10,000 rpm
drive. It was perfectly reliable.

In article , dump-on-
says...

On 11/18/11 12:11 PM, Califbill wrote:
"X ` Man" wrote in message
m...

On 11/17/11 9:38 PM, Califbill wrote:
wrote in message ...

On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:09:01 -0500, X ` Man
wrote:

I had a choice of drives for my server, so I bought four of these:

Seagate Constellation ES 2 TB Internal hard drive - 300 MBps - 7200 rpm


Seagate/Maxtor is a pretty good drive


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The problem with Apple, at least in former days, was you had to buy the
drive from Apple at excessive price. Same frikken drive as on a PC but
with a unique identifier in the SCSI packet. I designed Maxtor drives
and they were the same exact drive except for the identifier. The
problem with WD drives was getting them to be reliable at 7200 rpm. As
Jim McCoy, Chairman of Maxtor when I worked there, stated, anyone can
build a 3600 rpm drive, hard to handle the head flying and control at
7200 rpm. Lots of turbulence at the extra rpm.

That's no longer the case. You can buy drives in many sizes
from many vendors. I could upgrade the drive in my laptop, for example,
in about 10 minutes.

The server I have is made by Synology, not Apple. There is a long list
of recommended drives you can use with it. The device comes "driveless,"
as it were. Took longer to take the four drives out of their packaging
than it did to install them in the server.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
But how many of those 7200 rom drives are reliable? As to lots of
vendors, lots. As to manufacturers, shrinking all the time.


How many decades ago were you designing drives? Isn't it possible drives
have gotten more reliable? In my last Windows PC, I had a 10,000 rpm
drive. It was perfectly reliable.

Perfectly reliable??? NO mechanical device is 100% reliable, dip****.

"X ` Man" wrote in message
...

On 11/18/11 12:11 PM, Califbill wrote:
"X ` Man" wrote in message
m...

On 11/17/11 9:38 PM, Califbill wrote:
wrote in message ...

On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:09:01 -0500, X ` Man
wrote:

I had a choice of drives for my server, so I bought four of these:

Seagate Constellation ES 2 TB Internal hard drive - 300 MBps - 7200 rpm


Seagate/Maxtor is a pretty good drive


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The problem with Apple, at least in former days, was you had to buy the
drive from Apple at excessive price. Same frikken drive as on a PC but
with a unique identifier in the SCSI packet. I designed Maxtor drives
and they were the same exact drive except for the identifier. The
problem with WD drives was getting them to be reliable at 7200 rpm. As
Jim McCoy, Chairman of Maxtor when I worked there, stated, anyone can
build a 3600 rpm drive, hard to handle the head flying and control at
7200 rpm. Lots of turbulence at the extra rpm.

That's no longer the case. You can buy drives in many sizes
from many vendors. I could upgrade the drive in my laptop, for example,
in about 10 minutes.

The server I have is made by Synology, not Apple. There is a long list
of recommended drives you can use with it. The device comes "driveless,"
as it were. Took longer to take the four drives out of their packaging
than it did to install them in the server.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
But how many of those 7200 rom drives are reliable? As to lots of
vendors, lots. As to manufacturers, shrinking all the time.


How many decades ago were you designing drives? Isn't it possible drives
have gotten more reliable? In my last Windows PC, I had a 10,000 rpm
drive. It was perfectly reliable.


===================================
10 years ago. But still the mechanical problems rule. And if they were
perfectly reliable, you would not have to had a drive replaced. Still the
problems go up exponentially with speed. They fly closer now and more
turbulence with speed. Semi contact is almost the norm now. The error
correction helps immensely but there are still media problems. One of the
reasons I have a patent is on defect scanning. I wrote a lot of the defect
self scanning firmware for Maxtor. Interface code for Ministore and DSP
control code for Samsung and as an Apps engineer for the DSP supplier. The
higher speed and higher density makes for probably the same reliability we
had all through the 90's. Which was a lot more than the CDC, IBM and NCR
removable media 14" drives.

On 11/18/11 11:02 PM, Califbill wrote:
"X ` Man" wrote in message
...

On 11/18/11 12:11 PM, Califbill wrote:
"X ` Man" wrote in message
m...

On 11/17/11 9:38 PM, Califbill wrote:
wrote in message ...

On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:09:01 -0500, X ` Man
wrote:

I had a choice of drives for my server, so I bought four of these:

Seagate Constellation ES 2 TB Internal hard drive - 300 MBps - 7200 rpm


Seagate/Maxtor is a pretty good drive


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The problem with Apple, at least in former days, was you had to buy the
drive from Apple at excessive price. Same frikken drive as on a PC but
with a unique identifier in the SCSI packet. I designed Maxtor drives
and they were the same exact drive except for the identifier. The
problem with WD drives was getting them to be reliable at 7200 rpm. As
Jim McCoy, Chairman of Maxtor when I worked there, stated, anyone can
build a 3600 rpm drive, hard to handle the head flying and control at
7200 rpm. Lots of turbulence at the extra rpm.

That's no longer the case. You can buy drives in many sizes
from many vendors. I could upgrade the drive in my laptop, for example,
in about 10 minutes.

The server I have is made by Synology, not Apple. There is a long list
of recommended drives you can use with it. The device comes "driveless,"
as it were. Took longer to take the four drives out of their packaging
than it did to install them in the server.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

But how many of those 7200 rom drives are reliable? As to lots of
vendors, lots. As to manufacturers, shrinking all the time.


How many decades ago were you designing drives? Isn't it possible drives
have gotten more reliable? In my last Windows PC, I had a 10,000 rpm
drive. It was perfectly reliable.


===================================
10 years ago. But still the mechanical problems rule. And if they were
perfectly reliable, you would not have to had a drive replaced. Still
the problems go up exponentially with speed. They fly closer now and
more turbulence with speed. Semi contact is almost the norm now. The
error correction helps immensely but there are still media problems. One
of the reasons I have a patent is on defect scanning. I wrote a lot of
the defect self scanning firmware for Maxtor. Interface code for
Ministore and DSP control code for Samsung and as an Apps engineer for
the DSP supplier. The higher speed and higher density makes for probably
the same reliability we had all through the 90's. Which was a lot more
than the CDC, IBM and NCR removable media 14" drives.


The drive that failed, according to the techs who messed with it,
checked out ok, but there was someone written on it by software that
they couldn't reach...or some explanation like that. In any event, it
was the only hard drive that went teats up on me since 1984-85.

wrote in message news
On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 20:02:15 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:


10 years ago. But still the mechanical problems rule. And if they were
perfectly reliable, you would not have to had a drive replaced. Still the
problems go up exponentially with speed. They fly closer now and more
turbulence with speed. Semi contact is almost the norm now. The error
correction helps immensely but there are still media problems. One of the
reasons I have a patent is on defect scanning. I wrote a lot of the defect
self scanning firmware for Maxtor. Interface code for Ministore and DSP
control code for Samsung and as an Apps engineer for the DSP supplier. The
higher speed and higher density makes for probably the same reliability we
had all through the 90's. Which was a lot more than the CDC, IBM and NCR
removable media 14" drives.

I always wondered why operating systems did not collect soft error
statistics on hard drives. Usually the first time you know you have a
problem is when you get that "cannot read from device" error and that
may actually be an epitaph. You certainly need to stop and get the
drive backed up right then, hoping there is still something there to
back up. Hopefully your last backup is not that old.

I am really becoming a RAID fan, now that drives are cheap enough to
make it reasonable. I have 2 RAIDED sets in different machines with a
lot of the same data on each of them and things I really care about
are also on a portable drive. Things like pictures, music etc are
scattered around all over the place so it would be hard to lose them
all.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the late 80's I was working on a design for one of the first RAID systems
with hot swap and auto rebuild. Unfortunately the company had a layoff and
Hugh Sierra who I was working with on the RAID design was one of the layoffs
and they scrapped the program. We could have been the EMC powerhouse. Hugh
Sierra http://www.amazon.com/Hugh-M.-Sierra/e/B001KD286K had probably more
patents for disk drives at IBM than anybody else. System Industries made a
really big errors in judgment as to what to design. Turned down Sun when
they wanted us to design a file server for them in the early years of Sun
among others.

On 11/19/11 1:46 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 20:02:15 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:


10 years ago. But still the mechanical problems rule. And if they were
perfectly reliable, you would not have to had a drive replaced. Still the
problems go up exponentially with speed. They fly closer now and more
turbulence with speed. Semi contact is almost the norm now. The error
correction helps immensely but there are still media problems. One of the
reasons I have a patent is on defect scanning. I wrote a lot of the defect
self scanning firmware for Maxtor. Interface code for Ministore and DSP
control code for Samsung and as an Apps engineer for the DSP supplier. The
higher speed and higher density makes for probably the same reliability we
had all through the 90's. Which was a lot more than the CDC, IBM and NCR
removable media 14" drives.

I always wondered why operating systems did not collect soft error
statistics on hard drives. Usually the first time you know you have a
problem is when you get that "cannot read from device" error and that
may actually be an epitaph. You certainly need to stop and get the
drive backed up right then, hoping there is still something there to
back up. Hopefully your last backup is not that old.

I am really becoming a RAID fan, now that drives are cheap enough to
make it reasonable. I have 2 RAIDED sets in different machines with a
lot of the same data on each of them and things I really care about
are also on a portable drive. Things like pictures, music etc are
scattered around all over the place so it would be hard to lose them
all.

I went with a modified RAID on my little Synology server. Four two
terabyte drives, with one drive set up as "backup" for the other three.
I have less than one terabyte "used" by our computer and data here.

http://tinyurl.com/7fwkgeo



I also back up my iMac desktop to a separate one terabyte hard drive,
and my wife backs up her PC to the Synology server. All her files are
also on her at-work server, and I store my data files, photos and music
on "the Cloud," too.

Apple's Time Machine backup software works well, in the background,
though I don't let it run continuously. I use "SuperDuper," a program
for Macs, to back up a sparse image to the Synology server. Both Time
Machine and SuperDuper allow retrieval of one, many, or all files from
the backups, and also allow a complete restore if necessary.










































'used