I have paddled a glass boat and where I had no choice but to land on a
steep rocky beach (with minimal surf), I would get out while the boat
is in the water (you get good at this after a while) and I tie the
boat to a large rock preferably in the water. This way the kayak is in
the water while I unload it. Of course, there is a risk that the rope
slips off the rock while I am not looking and floats away or that I
drop my gear into the water as I'm unloading it. I have heard of
people carrying small anchors but this is a significant amount of
weight.

Anyone else do something similar? This may seem somewhat extreme but a
loaded glass boat on rocks in the surf zone will take quite a beating.




(Alex McGruer) wrote in message . com...
bb wrote in message . ..
I'm still looking to purchase my first kayak. I'm kinda partial to
the CD Scirocco. I'll no doubt not have enough experience before I
make a purchase to reasonalby tell the difference between a fiberglass
craft and a plastic one as far as performance goes. To me, the price
difference is not that geat. I kinda like the weight difference for
loading and unloading off the truck. I'm told the plastic is much
better at taking the abuse of rocks and oyster bars. So, I'd like to
pose a couple of questions to those more experience kayakers:

Just how much difference is there in performance between plastic and
fiberglass? How fragile are the fiberglass kayaks to abrasion that
I'm likely to encounter kayaking in Florida estuaries?

Thanks for any opinions.

bb

Scirroco is a fine boat, The Gulf stream is a beauty too.
Like one poster said the performance difference in similar boats
between glass and plastic is quite noticeable.
Plastic scratches much more easily but glass does not like bumps.
Glass can be repaired with reasonable ease, Though my patches are
noticeable.
I own some of each flavour ( Glass and Plastic ) I use them all .
I paddle the plastic Capella most but when I am off on my own I like
the NDK . For speed the NDK has it but the Explorer is a foot and 2
inches longer so that skews things. The NDK Romany is very similar to
the Capella and has comparable rocker; it too is a faster boat than
the Plastic P & H Capella ; but not much.

We have lots of rocky beaches here in Newfoundland. I would start with
a plastic boat if you intend to do a lot of paddling here. If I could
count on a beach or slip most of the time I would go glass.

The only time you will see a speed difference is when you are paddling
with seasoned paddlers that are fast.
When I drop my plastic Capella from the roof rack I hardly swear at
all. I dropped the NDK last week , Glad Mom was not there. The boat
was not hurt.

Eddy Line seames to have come up with a boat that is the best of both
worlds and light as a feather. A friend of mine bought a Night Hauk ,
Now if they made a nice Greenland type craft I would look at it.
Good luck.
If they are close to the same price and you are carefull the glass
boat may do you a lifetime. But plastic can take the odd bang.

Alex Horvath wrote:

I have paddled a glass boat and where I had no choice but to land on a
steep rocky beach (with minimal surf), I would get out while the boat
is in the water (you get good at this after a while) and I tie the
boat to a large rock preferably in the water. This way the kayak is in
the water while I unload it. Of course, there is a risk that the rope
slips off the rock while I am not looking and floats away or that I
drop my gear into the water as I'm unloading it. I have heard of
people carrying small anchors but this is a significant amount of
weight.

Anyone else do something similar? This may seem somewhat extreme but a
loaded glass boat on rocks in the surf zone will take quite a beating.

That sounds like an awful lot of gyrations to go through, plus you risk
soaking or losing gear and possibly losing your boat. More importantly,
you also risk personal injury by making trips back and forth in rocky
water. Just land the thing and drag it up on the rocks. It takes a lot
longer for your body to heal than it does to repair a few gelcoat
scratches. Gelcoat is also a lot cheaper than medical bills.

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On the box it says.. "Purchaseoffice 2010 Professional Plus 32bit to activate preloaded software on this PC" and i already have a product key/code formicrosoft office Home And Business 2010 32bit but dont know where to find the preloaded software (or the place where i can enter the key)office 2010 pro plus license
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Alex Horvath ) writes:

Anyone else do something similar? This may seem somewhat extreme but a
loaded glass boat on rocks in the surf zone will take quite a beating.

Yes. It's always better to load and unload the boat in the water. It's
also better if you can get in and out of a small boat with the hull afloat
parallel to the shore.

I've been to a couple of used boat sales, beat up rentals being sold by a
canoe manufacturer. The hulls are badly scratched up. That may not be a
problem for knocking about on your own but if you are on a trip with a
group and their hulls are smooth you are easily paddling 10% more to keep
up. That's like paddling 11 hours to their 10.

BW the boat rental business looks like quite a racket. The boats are
rented and get really beat up, then they are sold for half the original
purchase price. It's not just the renters who beat the boats up. I've
seen employees tossing them about like fire wood. The bottoms of the
hulls I've seen at the sales are criss-crossed with deep gouges - more
than a 10% difference in paddling effort there.


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William R. Watt wrote:

That may not be a
problem for knocking about on your own but if you are on a trip with a
group and their hulls are smooth you are easily paddling 10% more to keep
up.

Exactly where did that figure come from? The tests I've seen indicate
that scratched hulls have ~2-5% more drag smooth hulls, with badly
scarred plastic hulls with lots of "hairies" being at the high end. The
difference with fiberglass boats is minuscule.

That's like paddling 11 hours to their 10.

No, it's not like that at all. Even if your 10% figure is correct, it
pertains only to surface friction on the hull. That's only one component
of the total drag that must be overcome by the paddler. Wind resistance
and especially wave making resistance can be very substantial components
of total drag, depending on boat speed and weather conditions.
Realistically, a scratched hull will require you to paddle ~1-2% harder
than a smooth one. Unless you're racing, you'll never notice the difference.

Brian Nystrom ) writes:
William R. Watt wrote:

That may not be a
problem for knocking about on your own but if you are on a trip with a
group and their hulls are smooth you are easily paddling 10% more to keep
up.

Exactly where did that figure come from? The tests I've seen indicate
that scratched hulls have ~2-5% more drag smooth hulls, with badly
scarred plastic hulls with lots of "hairies" being at the high end. The
difference with fiberglass boats is minuscule.

the reference is long gone. it said one season's scratches add 5% to
hull resistance.


That's like paddling 11 hours to their 10.

No, it's not like that at all. Even if your 10% figure is correct, it
pertains only to surface friction on the hull. That's only one component
of the total drag that must be overcome by the paddler. Wind resistance
and especially wave making resistance can be very substantial components
of total drag, depending on boat speed and weather conditions.
Realistically, a scratched hull will require you to paddle ~1-2% harder
than a smooth one. Unless you're racing, you'll never notice the difference.

where does that 1-2% figure come from?

at sustained (cruising) paddling speeds hull resistance is still the
biggest component of total hull drag when comparing identical boats. there
are some numbers in a file on my website under "Boats" on average hull,
wind, and wave resistance, and energy consumption. a paddler can't put out
the power needed to maintain high wave making resistance speeds for any
length of time. it's a concern for racers. your point about wind and wave
resistance is well taken. however, considering the money spent on paddles
to reduce effort, the scratches on the hull matter. I don't think 10% is
out of order in anything less than rough conditions. I was trying to be
conservative. I don't have figures for paddlers but cruising sailors
experince moderate conditions most of the time. Rough conditions most of
the time would pretty well eliminate such passtimes as paddling and
sailing.




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On 28-May-2004, (William R. Watt) wrote:

at sustained (cruising) paddling speeds hull resistance is still the
biggest component of total hull drag when comparing identical boats. there
are some numbers in a file on my website under "Boats" on average hull,
wind, and wave resistance, and energy consumption. a paddler can't put out
the power needed to maintain high wave making resistance speeds for any
length of time.

Nowhere on your website could I find info to support this. You simply
claim that wave making resistance is not significant at paddling speeds.
For a kayak designed for optimal length at its cruising speed, skin
resistance and wave resistance are roughly equal.

If a paddler is routinely using a kayak under conditions where skin friction
dominates, they'd be better off using a shorter kayak. If they are routinely
pushing against wave-making resistance, they should get a longer kayak.

I don't think 10% is out of order in anything less than rough conditions.

You're still talking thru your hat, Willy. Unless you can cough up a valid
reference, I'll go with Brian's numbers.

Rough conditions most of
the time would pretty well eliminate such passtimes as paddling and
sailing.

You should get out more. Rough conditions are when kayaking gets interesting.
The fact is that kayaks are used in rough conditions (as would be defined by
marine architects) _most_ of the time.

Mike

"Michael Daly" ) writes:
On 28-May-2004, (William R. Watt) wrote:

at sustained (cruising) paddling speeds hull resistance is still the
biggest component of total hull drag when comparing identical boats. there
are some numbers in a file on my website under "Boats" on average hull,
wind, and wave resistance, and energy consumption. a paddler can't put out
the power needed to maintain high wave making resistance speeds for any
length of time.

Nowhere on your website could I find info to support this.

look under Boats, Paddling, first item (Speed, Resistance, Energy).
I'd appreciate seeing more specific data.

You simply
claim that wave making resistance is not significant at paddling speeds.
For a kayak designed for optimal length at its cruising speed, skin
resistance and wave resistance are roughly equal.

I think you mean "wave making resistance". If you have a source for speed and
hull resistance numbers I'd appreciate seeing it. Wind and wave resistance
would be even better.


If a paddler is routinely using a kayak under conditions where skin friction
dominates, they'd be better off using a shorter kayak. If they are routinely
pushing against wave-making resistance, they should get a longer kayak.

Sorry it's not an inverse relation.


I don't think 10% is out of order in anything less than rough conditions.

You're still talking thru your hat, Willy. Unless you can cough up a valid
reference, I'll go with Brian's numbers.

Brian didn't provide any data. You can work it out from the data on my
website. I'd be interested in seeing more precise data than what I have. I
could only find generalizations at the time.


You should get out more. Rough conditions are when kayaking gets interesting.
The fact is that kayaks are used in rough conditions (as would be defined by
marine architects) _most_ of the time.

And where do you get that data, in your dreams?


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William R. Watt ) writes:
"Michael Daly" ) writes:
On 28-May-2004, (William R. Watt) wrote:

at sustained (cruising) paddling speeds hull resistance is still the
biggest component of total hull drag when comparing identical boats. there
are some numbers in a file on my website under "Boats" on average hull,
wind, and wave resistance, and energy consumption. a paddler can't put out
the power needed to maintain high wave making resistance speeds for any
length of time.

Nowhere on your website could I find info to support this.

look under Boats, Paddling, first item (Speed, Resistance, Energy).
I'd appreciate seeing more specific data.


An average person can sustain 1/20 horsepower. When a canoe or
kayak is powered by 1/20 hp in a dead calm the power is overcomimg
4 pounds of hull friction resistance and 0.05 pounds of hull wave
making resistance. If 10% of the friction resistance is due to
scratches, that's 0.4 lb compared to the 0.05 lb wave making
resistance.

Mike wrote he thinks the friction and wave making resistance would
be equal. For that to happen the paddler would have to be
sustaining 1/5 horsepower, or 4 times as much. The boat would be
going almost twice as fast. Athletes can do that. In short bursts
athletes can produce 1/2 hp.

In "Sea Kayaking" J Dowd's data assumes the paddler sustains 0.03
hp. The discrepency likely is due to a different boat being used
at the same speed. In a 10 knot headwind the wind and resulting
waves are producing 0.01 hp.

If hull scratches increase friction resistance by 10%, the paddler
has to produce 10% more hp to overcome it and keep the boat moving
at the same speed in a dead calm. In a 10 knot headwind the
extra power drops to about 7% of the total paddler output.
More precise data than what I have available could affect the
result.


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On 28-May-2004, (William R. Watt) wrote:

If a paddler is routinely using a kayak under conditions where skin friction
dominates, they'd be better off using a shorter kayak. If they are routinely
pushing against wave-making resistance, they should get a longer kayak.

Sorry it's not an inverse relation.

??? The more you say about small craft hydrodynamics, the more I realize
how little you understand.

Skin friction increases with length, while wave-making resistance decreases
with length. Minimum total resistance is where the sum of the two is minimum.
For a given displacement, this occurs when the two are roughly equal. This
will also yield the optimum length for a given velocity at that displacement.

If you paddle where skin friction dominates, that means the kayak is too long.
If you paddle where wave making resistance dominates, the kayak is too short.

I don't think 10% is out of order in anything less than rough conditions.

You're still talking thru your hat, Willy. Unless you can cough up a valid
reference, I'll go with Brian's numbers.

Brian didn't provide any data.

He said 2% or so.

You can work it out from the data on my
website. I'd be interested in seeing more precise data than what I have. I
could only find generalizations at the time.

You have no such data that I've seen. Where do you have the data that indicates
how much resistance is due to scratches?

You should get out more. Rough conditions are when kayaking gets interesting.
The fact is that kayaks are used in rough conditions (as would be defined by
marine architects) _most_ of the time.

And where do you get that data, in your dreams?

"The Shape of the Canoe" by John Winters.

Mike