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OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
For a country that prides itself in its free press, I was amazed to see
coverage of the photos of US soldiers torturing and humiating Iraqi detainee on all the tv news stations last night, all except CNN. South Africa had it, Sky News from Britain had it headlined, even the local Congolese news had it. Not a word on CNN International. Today, it finally comes out in Reuters. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...aq_pictures_dc When you get outside the US, you see our country in a similar light as how much of the world sees it. Stories come across in the news differently, attitudes about our actions and our influence are colored entirely differently, and the old phrase 'Fortress America' has new meaning. This latest thing is atrocious, and I am sure than there isn't a single American living in the states who fully realizes how distainful, discrediting and compromising this makes us look. I trepidaciously look forward to how Bush will pass blame for this on to someone else. --riverman |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Riverman;
It is absolutely unbelievable what the press in this country reports and what it does not report. When the government in Spain changed in the recent election, most networks described it as the "Convervatives being voted out of office." Ditto for the recent French regional elections. No mention was ever made of the party names that defeated them. They can't bring themselves to us the "S" word. Last weekend, a few folks gathered in Washington, DC. There was some mention of a DC rally, however, the US Park Service has stated that "it is not the job of the Park Service to count people." The rally permit was for 800,000 people. Some attendees estimated the actual number close to 1 million, others only 700,000. Either way, there were more people in attendance to support their cause than the total military active in Iraq, little or no mention was made on the news. While the "Liberal Media" might broadcast news in support of its political agenda and generate an outcry, no notice is made when the "Conservative Media" edits out stories which does not support their agenda. If you don't hear about it, you have no way of knowing. Very effective. It may not be an overt policy, and it may not be anything more than a side effect of gaining more efficieny by consolidating smaller networks into larger networks, but I would be very worried if there were only one or two news networks. The best anyone can do is make sure that at least one of the news broadcasts you watch is from outside the US. (BBC, CBC, or French newscasts). Clearly one has to ask "Why are they telling me this." Amy Goodman recently described the press coverage in the runup to the Iraq war. 392 interviews featured people advocating war with Iraq. 4 featured opponents. There are choices made that influence the content that is presented to the American public. And this is the American public glued to it easychair, watching reality TV and thinking they are getting the truth. For a country that prides itself on it's individualism, most Americans little realize the degree that their views are quietly being shaped. Repeat the mantra over and over and over again, and it will take root. The reality will interfere ultimately. You can't fire every photographer that publishes photos of a plane full of coffins being returned in the middle of the night. Sooner or later, everyone will be only two or three degrees of separation from someone who was killed in Iraq. And sadly, it will ultimately become more intimate than that. Nearly everyone my age knew someone who died in Vietnam. Only when everyones friend, son, nephew, or cousin was killed did the political tide turn. I find it interesting that most of the war hawks are always those who have never traveled outside of the US. On my last trip abroad, I spent my time looking at my shoes,embarrased to be an American, wondering if I could pass as a Canadian. Meanwhile, back here in Fortress America, we continue to not hold our government accountable, fail to exercise the democratic process we attempt to impose on others, continue to accept the opinions of national newscasters as fact, and evade asking the hard questions. I do not blame Bush for being who he is. The real problem in this country are the Sheep that eatup the crap presented to them without question and march their young blindly off to slaughter. RailTramp Blakely LaCroix Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA. RBP Clique member # 86. The best adventure is yet to come. |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
me too. I wouldn't usually bother posting that, but I am afraid many folks think Bush has a very good chance of being re-elected. I hope that is not true. Articles and viewpoints like this help me to wake up tomorrow morning with a brighter outlook. I have never felt this stongly about any election. And I am sorry, Wilko, but Kerry will not pull us out of Iraq overnight. Far as I can tell, we will be there for a while. I know folks who are ready to move to Canada! I only hope that one day I can return to Europe for a visit without being ashamed of being an American. -Dan V. On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:33:37 -0700, Charles Pezeshki wrote: in article , Blakely LaCroix at wrote on 4/30/04 8:04 AM: I do not blame Bush for being who he is. The real problem in this country are the Sheep that eatup the crap presented to them without question and march their young blindly off to slaughter. RailTramp Amen, Blakely. Many of my own liberal friends are acting as if Kerry gets elected, then all will pass. Of course, I support Kerry, but I still say: "We didn't get here overnight, and we're not gonna get out of here overnight." Best, Chuck |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
I know folks who are ready to move to Canada! I only hope that one day I can return to Europe for a visit without being ashamed of being an American. I would like to travel to the US with out being taken for a terrorist at every security check point just because I have three Iranian visas in my passport. Random selection by the computer my ass! On my last GC trip a good friend of mine refused to come as this was his protest at the Iraq war - he is Scottish and so claims no allegiance with Blair. I just hope that the electors remember the actions of their leaders when the elections arrive yours in the US in November and ours here in the UK whenever Blair wants to hold it in the next 18 months. VOTE it is the only way to change things unless you can find a super power to come and overthrow the corrupt governments we have! -Dan V. On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:33:37 -0700, Charles Pezeshki wrote: in article , Blakely LaCroix at wrote on 4/30/04 8:04 AM: I do not blame Bush for being who he is. The real problem in this country are the Sheep that eatup the crap presented to them without question and march their young blindly off to slaughter. RailTramp Amen, Blakely. Many of my own liberal friends are acting as if Kerry gets elected, then all will pass. Of course, I support Kerry, but I still say: "We didn't get here overnight, and we're not gonna get out of here overnight." Best, Chuck -- Dave Manby Details of the Coruh river and my book "Many Rivers To Run" at http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
riverman wrote: This latest thing is atrocious, and I am sure than there isn't a single American living in the states who fully realizes how distainful, discrediting and compromising this makes us look. Agreed. I trepidaciously look forward to how Bush will pass blame for this on to someone else. The blame rests with the people who did it. That seems pretty evident. There's no reason to pass the blame, what's needed is to prosecute the guilty parties. |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Dan Valleskey wrote:
I wouldn't usually bother posting that, but I am afraid many folks think Bush has a very good chance of being re-elected. He does, especially since it's becoming clearer that Kerry can't be trusted to tell the truth about much of anything. He's just another typical politician. And I am sorry, Wilko, but Kerry will not pull us out of Iraq overnight. Far as I can tell, we will be there for a while. Good. The worst thing we could do is to simply pull out. It's going to take time to stabilize Iraq and we shouldn't leave until that job is done. I'll give Kerry credit that he at least seems to understand that. BTW, why would you apologize to Wilko? His fairy tale ideas about an immediate pullout and UN control are ridiculous. I know folks who are ready to move to Canada! I only hope that one day I can return to Europe for a visit without being ashamed of being an American. Why would you be ashamed? Have YOU done anything that you consider wrong or hurtful to the rest of the world? There's a big difference between "the government" and "the people", here and everywhere around the world. There are many things I'm not pleased with about our culture and government policies, but that doesn't make me ashamed to be an American. |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
"Dan Valleskey" valleskey at comcast dot net wrote in message
... stuff snipped I know folks who are ready to move to Canada! I only hope that one day I can return to Europe for a visit without being ashamed of being an American. stuff snipped Ashamed to be an American? Get involved and change the system or find somewhere you aren't ashamed of. What kind of a coward just puts up with something he's ashamed of? (Sorry, I know I shouldn't fee the trolls.) |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
On Sat, 01 May 2004 13:33:12 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote: Dan Valleskey wrote: snip.. And I am sorry, Wilko, but Kerry will not pull us out of Iraq overnight. Far as I can tell, we will be there for a while. snip.. BTW, why would you apologize to Wilko? His fairy tale ideas about an immediate pullout and UN control are ridiculous. I know him, I value his opinions. He has seen more than I ever will. His thoughts and opinions are not pulled out of mid-air. He is very very intelligent, in my opinion, and I suspect well read. He has a different viewpoint than any American is likely to have. Let's not forget that Usenet is a world wide forum. And- what I said was- I am sorry but Kerry will not pull us out of Iraq overnight..... Yes, we have an obligation to leave them in a bettter situiation. I am sorry that we will be there for some time, to effect needed changes. And I am sorry that Americans will die in that effort. I know folks who are ready to move to Canada! I only hope that one day I can return to Europe for a visit without being ashamed of being an American. Why would you be ashamed? Have YOU done anything that you consider wrong or hurtful to the rest of the world? There's a big difference between "the government" and "the people", here and everywhere around the world. There are many things I'm not pleased with about our culture and government policies, but that doesn't make me ashamed to be an American. I agree, was it Ed Abbey that said, love your country, but hate (?mistrust?) it's government. Unfortunatly, the man I (and the majority in this country) voted for did not get into office. Maybe "ashamed" was not the best word I could have used. But I was sure not proud that I was an American, when I was in Europe. It is a big world, and many of the people in it don't like me, because of my government. America attacked Iraq without just cause. So we are scorned in many places. Do you like that? You (or someone in this thread) mentioned something about my being a troll. I resent that. I have posted on RBP for many years. I prefaced my remarks (to an OT posting) that I did not take this stance lightly. I am not standing here on a soap box just to make trouble, just to rattle the cage. People who read this may one day paddle with me, share a campfire with me. I hope they understand my views to some extent, even if they don't agree with me. A troll? Not as I understand the meaning of the word in this context. If you want to take this discussion off usenet, I believe you can find my true email address in my signature. I am even willing to talk to you on the phone, just contact me off RBP. But please don't call me a troll. -Dan V. |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Dan Valleskey wrote: On Sat, 01 May 2004 13:33:12 GMT, Brian Nystrom wrote: Dan Valleskey wrote: snip.. And I am sorry, Wilko, but Kerry will not pull us out of Iraq overnight. Far as I can tell, we will be there for a while. snip.. BTW, why would you apologize to Wilko? His fairy tale ideas about an immediate pullout and UN control are ridiculous. I know him, I value his opinions. He has seen more than I ever will. His thoughts and opinions are not pulled out of mid-air. He is very very intelligent, in my opinion, and I suspect well read. He has a different viewpoint than any American is likely to have. Go back and read what he suggested, then tell it how intelligent they are. He's pulling completely unworkable "solutions" out of his ass, based on emotion rather than logic. Let's not forget that Usenet is a world wide forum. I'm well aware of that. Stupidity is also a worldwide phenomenon. And- what I said was- I am sorry but Kerry will not pull us out of Iraq overnight..... Yes, we have an obligation to leave them in a bettter situiation. I am sorry that we will be there for some time, to effect needed changes. And I am sorry that Americans will die in that effort. Agreed. I know folks who are ready to move to Canada! I only hope that one day I can return to Europe for a visit without being ashamed of being an American. Why would you be ashamed? Have YOU done anything that you consider wrong or hurtful to the rest of the world? There's a big difference between "the government" and "the people", here and everywhere around the world. There are many things I'm not pleased with about our culture and government policies, but that doesn't make me ashamed to be an American. I agree, was it Ed Abbey that said, love your country, but hate (?mistrust?) it's government. Unfortunatly, the man I (and the majority in this country) voted for did not get into office. Are you still whining about the election? It's been 3 1/2 years, get over it. Maybe "ashamed" was not the best word I could have used. But I was sure not proud that I was an American, when I was in Europe. It is a big world, and many of the people in it don't like me, because of my government. Then they are narrow minded idiots. Do you hate all Saudis because a bunch of them took down the WTC on 9/11? I certainly don't and there's no reason for anyone not to make similar distinctions between people and governments. America attacked Iraq without just cause. I don't agree. So we are scorned in many places. Do you like that? Of course not, but it's nothing new. There will always be people who hate us because we're the "big kid on the block". We're constantly in no-win situations. If we act, we're criticized. If we don't act and some bad happens as a result, we're criticized. The world if full of "Monday morning quarterbacks" and we're never going to win them all over. You (or someone in this thread) mentioned something about my being a troll. It wasn't me. |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Brian Nystrom wrote in message ...
riverman wrote: This latest thing is atrocious, and I am sure than there isn't a single American living in the states who fully realizes how distainful, discrediting and compromising this makes us look. Agreed. I trepidaciously look forward to how Bush will pass blame for this on to someone else. The blame rests with the people who did it. That seems pretty evident. There's no reason to pass the blame, what's needed is to prosecute the guilty parties. It is not isolated Brian. We ( As a group ) don't see these people as fully human so we can do nasty things to them. After all they blew up the trade towers ... right??. |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Fiona wrote: Brian Nystrom wrote in message ... riverman wrote: This latest thing is atrocious, and I am sure than there isn't a single American living in the states who fully realizes how distainful, discrediting and compromising this makes us look. Agreed. I trepidaciously look forward to how Bush will pass blame for this on to someone else. The blame rests with the people who did it. That seems pretty evident. There's no reason to pass the blame, what's needed is to prosecute the guilty parties. It is not isolated Brian. That depends on how you define "isolated". I'm assuming that this has happened more than once, but that hardly makes it systemic. We ( As a group ) don't see these people as fully human so we can do nasty things to them. Don't include me in your "we". I don't see it that way at all. There is no justification for what apparently happened. After all they blew up the trade towers ... right??. No. Whatever gave you that idea? You're going way out on a limb here. What point are you trying to make? Are you just trying to bait me or something? If so, you're wasting your time, as I don't think that way. |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
On Thu, 06 May 2004 23:44:30 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote: That depends on how you define "isolated". I'm assuming that this has happened more than once, but that hardly makes it systemic. ... Wait a minute. We are expected to believe that these reservists came up with things that Muslims specifically would see as humiliating? All by themselves with no help? Do you think they took Arab Humiliation courses at their local community college? Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA We are the CroMagnon of the future |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Galen Hekhuis wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 06 May 2004 23:44:30 GMT, Brian Nystrom wrote: That depends on how you define "isolated". I'm assuming that this has happened more than once, but that hardly makes it systemic. ... Wait a minute. We are expected to believe that these reservists came up with things that Muslims specifically would see as humiliating? All by themselves with no help? Do you think they took Arab Humiliation courses at their local community college? Galen I think anyone would be humiliated at this stuff. I did not see anything that would not fill a Christian or a pagan with absolute disgust . Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA We are the CroMagnon of the future brian : i was being sarcastic. the world knows that iraq had nothing to do with the trade tower bombings . WMD's are sort of in doubt right now too. in an earier post I mentioned what happened to a friend . i am pretty angry about that. soldiers are not policing themselves in a mannor appropriate for the circomstance. US soldiers (and brits) are finding themselves in the same circomstance that i would imagine the germans did with the jews. dehuminize the foe and they can be mistreated or even exterminated. the germans are not an ignorant barbaric race, as a nation quite the oposite : but they did what they did and now we are getting a lesson on how this can happen. i saw a night vision video of three men being shot by machine gun a couple of nights ago. they were unarmed. the humiliation the men in that iraqi prison were put through was not just stuff that would play on the Islamic mind , it would be a crime against anyone. what you are looking at is an attitude. young men have absolute power over a people that can't speak the language to complain and if they can they are afraid to. this has hapened before; and will again. the truly sad thing is there is now way out. we had a program played here in Canada , A W5 CBC production . It was about the bush , bin laden ties and soudi arabia. It was most interesting. going to war seams easy. how george gets you out of it is going to be a task. though i dissagree with your view you are quite eliquent. i an sure you don't carry a natural hatred for arabs at large, right now though the coalition of the willing seams to. the news not allowed out of iraq is frightening . your own media is not allowed to show coffins, body bags or the bodies of dead US soldiers. i think you will change your mind, eventually ( 10 years or so ) but only if i am wrong.... fiona. |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
On 7 May 2004 07:23:45 -0700, (Fiona) wrote:
Galen I think anyone would be humiliated at this stuff. I did not see anything that would not fill a Christian or a pagan with absolute disgust . You think wrong. Rush Limbaugh has said it was no more than frat hazing. Even Don Rumsfeld said that it was "abuse," not torture. Being as how that seems to be the attitude of some, and others take the "we're not as bad as Saddam" approach, it is much more credible to me that these folks were steered into these acts. This is not to say that the people who did these things are any less guilty, it is just that not everyone involved (or who comments) is filled with "absolute disgust." There are plenty who think it is the result of a "few bad apples." I think it involves much more than that. I do not believe a "few bad apples" chose prisoners in Iraq of all places. How many military prisons are there? What are the odds? Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA We are the CroMagnon of the future |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Yep, just an "isolated incident". Here's something from the CBC.
"3000 Prisoners Slaughtered in Afganastan This video is about how the US slaughtered 3000 Afgan prisoners of war. The video is big - 55 megs download and it is shocking. It makes the Black Hole of Calcutta look like a picnic. These prisoners were left in sealed truck containers to suffocate and fry in the hot sun. The few that survived a week were taken out and shot an buried in mass graves. The video is EXTREMELY disturbing and it will give you nightmares. If you are not ready to see this footage - DO NOT WATCH IT !!! This is NAZI level stuff." http://marc.perkel.com/images/AfganPOWsKilled.mov |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
For a country that prides itself in its free press, I was amazed to see
coverage of the photos of US soldiers torturing and humiating Iraqi detainee on all the tv news stations last night, all except CNN. Followup: So where are we now? CBS was asked to suppress the story - which it did - essentially confirming that part of the US media is under the direction of the US government. Now that is a free press. ---- I don't know why everyone is so surprised by the discovery of abuse of Iraqi prisioners. It should come as no surprise that a nation capable of compromising the rights of its own citizens in support of a war on terror through the provisions of the Patriot Act would hesitate at all in violating the human rights of people it has declared as the enemy. ---- The far right has a tradition of believing the End justifies the Means. We need only become students of history. It was 40 years ago, that we first heard "Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice". (Barry Goldwater - 1964 presidential campaign). One aspect of becoming older is that you get to see much of the past repeated. It seems each generation needs to learn their own truthes through their own experiences. So we make the same mistakes all over again. Those of the Vietnam era have already experienced the abuse of domestic surveillence by the CIA and FBI. And nearly 34 years ago to the day, we witnessed our own military killing our own citizenry in the streets. Back then the images of abuse were prisoners in "Tiger Cages" and people pushed out of helicopters. The chant from Patriotic chorus was just as loud. "Love it or Leave it". Nixon won in a record landslide only to become the first president to resign in disgrace. And then we wonder why the American people are split so sharply over (your pick) Bush, the war in Iraq, rights violations both foreign and domestic. Many of us have seen it before. And after the dust settled, there were the investigations where we learned that we were lied to and spied upon "for our own good". The distrust that the government earned lingers long. Blakely LaCroix Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA. RBP Clique member # 86. The best adventure is yet to come. |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Dan Valleskey wrote:
me too. I wouldn't usually bother posting that, but I am afraid many folks think Bush has a very good chance of being re-elected. I hope that is not true. Articles and viewpoints like this help me to wake up tomorrow morning with a brighter outlook. I have never felt this stongly about any election. And I am sorry, Wilko, but Kerry will not pull us out of Iraq overnight. Far as I can tell, we will be there for a while. I know, I know... but one can always hope... I just hope that he isn't as dumb as Bush when it comes to alienating the world and turning the U.S. into a nation under terror. Every time I watch U.S. news (whether it be NBC, CNN or CBS), I wonder why people are being constantly being made afraid with messages from the government and media. It must be that the only way the U.S. government can get away with unconstitutional limitations or individual's freedom is by saying that it's necessary because of the constant threats. I know folks who are ready to move to Canada! I only hope that one day I can return to Europe for a visit without being ashamed of being an American. Dan, you're okay, and so are many, if not most, of your countrymen. Unfortunately, there is a considerable amount of people who won't think for themselves, who will believe everything their media or their government tells them. If that minority is vocal enough, it might sound like they're talking for the entire nation. Anyway, if you want to hop over to Europe and you'll find yourself near Eindhoven, you're welcome to stay at my house. (I'll even protect you from the hordes or angry Europeans trying to shred you and your fellow Americans to ribbons! ;-) ) Wilko -- Wilko van den Bergh Wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations. http://wilko.webzone.ru/ |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Paddlec1 wrote:
Yep, just an "isolated incident". Here's something from the CBC. "3000 Prisoners Slaughtered in Afganastan This video is about how the US slaughtered 3000 Afgan prisoners of war. The video is big - 55 megs download and it is shocking. It makes the Black Hole of Calcutta look like a picnic. These prisoners were left in sealed truck containers to suffocate and fry in the hot sun. The few that survived a week were taken out and shot an buried in mass graves. The video is EXTREMELY disturbing and it will give you nightmares. If you are not ready to see this footage - DO NOT WATCH IT !!! This is NAZI level stuff." http://marc.perkel.com/images/AfganPOWsKilled.mov The funny thing is that this documentary was shown on German and Dutch TV almost two years ago, not too long after the invasion of Afghanistan. I posted about seeing it in a thread about the war in Afghanistan on Boatertalk, and got a wave of resentment and being called a liar because it wasn't shown on any U.S. TV station, therefore it wasn't true. If only that link had been available then. :( -- Wilko van den Bergh Wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations. http://wilko.webzone.ru/ |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
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OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Wilko wrote:
I know, I know... but one can always hope... I just hope that he isn't as dumb as Bush when it comes to alienating the world and turning the U.S. into a nation under terror. It doesn't matter, as he's never going to get the chance. ;-) Every time I watch U.S. news (whether it be NBC, CNN or CBS), I wonder why people are being constantly being made afraid with messages from the government and media. It must be that the only way the U.S. government can get away with unconstitutional limitations or individual's freedom is by saying that it's necessary because of the constant threats. You have an incredibly skewed view of life here. It's nothing at all like you're imagining it to be. Other than noticeably tigher security at airports, seaports and public events, life has changed very little here. I don't know why you think we're all running scared, as that simply isn't true. We've become used to the exaggerations of the media and most people just take it all in stride. I'm sure there are some people here that are like those in your dreams, but I certainly don't know any. |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Galen Hekhuis wrote:
On Thu, 06 May 2004 23:44:30 GMT, Brian Nystrom wrote: That depends on how you define "isolated". I'm assuming that this has happened more than once, but that hardly makes it systemic. ... Wait a minute. We are expected to believe that these reservists came up with things that Muslims specifically would see as humiliating? All by themselves with no help? Do you think they took Arab Humiliation courses at their local community college? Well, I think it's safe to say that anyone would have found it humiliating. Regardless, it's entirely possible that they were coached, directed and/or encouraged. If so, the people who did so should be punished at least as severely as those who perpetrated the acts. However, that doesn't mean that all guards, supervisors and the like are guilty or that these things occurred at all facilities. Time will tell. |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
On Tue, 11 May 2004 21:22:49 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote: ... You have an incredibly skewed view of life here. It's nothing at all like you're imagining it to be. Other than noticeably tigher security at airports, seaports and public events, life has changed very little here. I don't know why you think we're all running scared, as that simply isn't true. We've become used to the exaggerations of the media and most people just take it all in stride. Just out of curiosity, what are we supposed to do when they raise/lower the "terror threat level"? I'll agree, little has changed here other than tighter security at some places and stuff, but if you think the media is exaggerating stuff you haven't heard some recent government pronouncements predicting a terrorist attack before long. Scared? Not me, personally, but I think the public as a whole is to varying degrees. And the darned thing is there all these frightened people running around and all the government tells them is to be alert and go shopping. Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA We are the CroMagnon of the future |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Fiona wrote: Galen Hekhuis wrote in message . .. On Thu, 06 May 2004 23:44:30 GMT, Brian Nystrom wrote: That depends on how you define "isolated". I'm assuming that this has happened more than once, but that hardly makes it systemic. ... Wait a minute. We are expected to believe that these reservists came up with things that Muslims specifically would see as humiliating? All by themselves with no help? Do you think they took Arab Humiliation courses at their local community college? Galen I think anyone would be humiliated at this stuff. I did not see anything that would not fill a Christian or a pagan with absolute disgust . Agreed. brian : i was being sarcastic. the world knows that iraq had nothing to do with the trade tower bombings . WMD's are sort of in doubt right now too. Sure. in an earier post I mentioned what happened to a friend . i am pretty angry about that. soldiers are not policing themselves in a mannor appropriate for the circomstance. US soldiers (and brits) are finding themselves in the same circomstance that i would imagine the germans did with the jews. dehuminize the foe and they can be mistreated or even exterminated. the germans are not an ignorant barbaric race, as a nation quite the oposite : but they did what they did and now we are getting a lesson on how this can happen. Point well taken. War definitely brings out the dark side of the human psyche in many people. It's an ugly business. i saw a night vision video of three men being shot by machine gun a couple of nights ago. they were unarmed. When did it happen? What was the context? We're they just hanging around on the street having a cigarette? Were they approaching a checkpoint and refusing to stop when ordered? Without more information, it's impossible to say whether the actions were justified and unfortunate, or crimial and punishable. the humiliation the men in that iraqi prison were put through was not just stuff that would play on the Islamic mind , it would be a crime against anyone. Agreed. what you are looking at is an attitude. young men have absolute power over a people that can't speak the language to complain and if they can they are afraid to. this has hapened before; and will again. Sadly, I'm sure you're right. the truly sad thing is there is now way out. we had a program played here in Canada , A W5 CBC production . It was about the bush , bin laden ties and soudi arabia. It was most interesting. going to war seams easy. how george gets you out of it is going to be a task. That was known beforehand. The people crying about it are the ADD, short attention span crowd who want everything RIGHT NOW. That was never going to happen and anyone with any sense knows that. Yes, there have been unexpected twists and turns and attendant changes in strategy and tactics, but that's the nature of war. War is untidy. War is unpredictable. People forget that for every person here who was/is strategizing, there's a counterpart on the other side who's trying to undermine that strategy. It's huge, deadly chess match. The outcome is never certain until it happens. though i dissagree with your view you are quite eliquent. i an sure you don't carry a natural hatred for arabs at large, right now though the coalition of the willing seams to. I don't agree with that at all, neither from the military of civilian perspectives. The overwhelming majority of those involve have no hatred of Arabs at all and would rather be helping to build schools and hospitals and other infrastructure than fighting insurgents. I absolutely refuse to believe that we are the bad guys in this situation, the actions of a few miscreants notwithstanding. the news not allowed out of iraq is frightening . your own media is not allowed to show coffins, body bags or the bodies of dead US soldiers. Think what you will, but that's out of respect for the dead and their families. There is no shortage of news about casualties. PBS has a roll call of them every night on the news. Information about them is published on several government web sites and updated in a timely manner. Hell, Nightline did a program where they read off names for the entire show! No one is hiding information regarding those who've made the ultimate sacrifice. i think you will change your mind, eventually ( 10 years or so ) but only if i am wrong.... I doubt it, but you never know. The problem now is that everyone is emotionally involved. Years from now when the final outcome is known and we can look at the war dispassionately, it will be easier to determine whether it was the right thing to do or not. I thought that Vietnam was wrong at the time and I still do now, though perhaps not for the same reasons that you might feel that way (if you do). |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
On Tue, 11 May 2004 21:28:15 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote: Well, I think it's safe to say that anyone would have found it humiliating. Regardless, it's entirely possible that they were coached, directed and/or encouraged. If so, the people who did so should be punished at least as severely as those who perpetrated the acts. However, that doesn't mean that all guards, supervisors and the like are guilty or that these things occurred at all facilities. Time will tell. I just don't see how two separate units (that we know of so far) came up with all of this on their lonesome. I know there is a whole lot of political pressure to limit this to the "just 6 or 7 individuals" as was made abundantly clear in the Senate hearings today, but in all honesty how can anyone conclude that this is just limited to a few miscreants? Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA We are the CroMagnon of the future |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Galen Hekhuis wrote: On Tue, 11 May 2004 21:22:49 GMT, Brian Nystrom wrote: ... You have an incredibly skewed view of life here. It's nothing at all like you're imagining it to be. Other than noticeably tigher security at airports, seaports and public events, life has changed very little here. I don't know why you think we're all running scared, as that simply isn't true. We've become used to the exaggerations of the media and most people just take it all in stride. Just out of curiosity, what are we supposed to do when they raise/lower the "terror threat level"? I'll agree, little has changed here other than tighter security at some places and stuff, but if you think the media is exaggerating stuff you haven't heard some recent government pronouncements predicting a terrorist attack before long. Scared? Not me, personally, but I think the public as a whole is to varying degrees. And the darned thing is there all these frightened people running around and all the government tells them is to be alert and go shopping. That's a fair question. It seems that the short answer to increase threat levels is "be more vigilant, but on with your life". Realistically, there's little else an individual can do. We have to expect that any specific threat will be dealt with by the authorities. The vagueness of the warnings is annoying, but they're apparently based on increases in non-specific "chatter", so what other option is there? I guess they could just say nothing, but I don't see that as helpful. |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Galen Hekhuis wrote: On Tue, 11 May 2004 21:28:15 GMT, Brian Nystrom wrote: Well, I think it's safe to say that anyone would have found it humiliating. Regardless, it's entirely possible that they were coached, directed and/or encouraged. If so, the people who did so should be punished at least as severely as those who perpetrated the acts. However, that doesn't mean that all guards, supervisors and the like are guilty or that these things occurred at all facilities. Time will tell. I just don't see how two separate units (that we know of so far) came up with all of this on their lonesome. It's quite possible that they didn't. I know there is a whole lot of political pressure to limit this to the "just 6 or 7 individuals" as was made abundantly clear in the Senate hearings today, but in all honesty how can anyone conclude that this is just limited to a few miscreants? I don't think anyone has drawn any concrete conclusions. Investigations are ongoing. Let's see where they lead before we jump to any conclusions. |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Does anyone else recognize this language, and get a bit of a chill
from it? "We provided advisors, in particular fire control and forward air controllers, to the Northern Alliance. The US did not command the unit nor have control over the action of its troops." Hint: Think 1965. Pete On 11 May 2004 01:48:43 GMT, ospam (Larry Cable) wrote: Excuse me, but the incident was covered by the American press, even had an investigative piece in Newsweek on it. The only difference is that it was a lot less judgemental of the US role in the tradegy than the video linked in the article. No one disputes the basic facts, that Taliban prisoners of the Northern Alliance were transported in closed trucks and many of them died. What I do dispute is the role the US played in it. We provided advisors, in particular fire control and forward air controllers, to the Northern Alliance. The US did not command the unit nor have control over the action of its troops. |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Galen Hekhuis wrote:
I just don't see how two separate units (that we know of so far) came up with all of this on their lonesome. I know there is a whole lot of political pressure to limit this to the "just 6 or 7 individuals" as was made abundantly clear in the Senate hearings today, but in all honesty how can anyone conclude that this is just limited to a few miscreants? Some sources say that these torture techniques are taught by CIA and MI (military intelligence) because they break down prisoners without causing so much physical damage that death is possible or likely. Here is the most informative article I have seen so far about the origin of the "Six Morons Who Lost the War" situation. (BTW, it's interesting that the Pentagon implies by this phrase that they have lost the war.) Looks like Staff Sergeant Ivan "Chip" Frederick II decided to go public rather than accept an undefended court martial. http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bal...home-headlines |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
seldom_seen wrote: Does anyone else recognize this language, and get a bit of a chill from it? "We provided advisors, in particular fire control and forward air controllers, to the Northern Alliance. The US did not command the unit nor have control over the action of its troops." Hint: Think 1965. Yep, I couldn't help but make the same connection. I already wondered these past couple of days if we're going to see similar pictures of helicopters being pushed off aircraft carrier decks to make room for more helicopters flying in from the mainland as the US and British troops along with their local henchmen retreat from Iraq. What a mess. -- Wilko van den Bergh Wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations. http://wilko.webzone.ru/ |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
On Wed, 12 May 2004 15:46:00 -0000, Bill Tuthill
wrote: Some sources say that these torture techniques are taught by CIA and MI (military intelligence) because they break down prisoners without causing so much physical damage that death is possible or likely. Here is the most informative article I have seen so far about the origin of the "Six Morons Who Lost the War" situation. (BTW, it's interesting that the Pentagon implies by this phrase that they have lost the war.) Looks like Staff Sergeant Ivan "Chip" Frederick II decided to go public rather than accept an undefended court martial. http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bal...home-headlines "Morons Lay the Blame at Only Six for Losing the War" would be more like it. I couldn't get the link to work. Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA We are the CroMagnon of the future |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
On Wed, 12 May 2004 12:50:45 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote: It's quite possible that they didn't. Possible? I'd say obvious. I don't think anyone has drawn any concrete conclusions. Investigations are ongoing. Let's see where they lead before we jump to any conclusions. Seymour Hirsch noted that the picture of the Iraqi with the dogs involved an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT UNIT than those pictures previously shown on, among other things, 60 Minutes II. He details that over a 12 minute period two cameras were used. Now there were two soldiers with the dogs, who obviously didn't take the pictures. That's three people right there, assuming one of the dog handlers was also one of the photographers in other shots, if not, then we can get up to four. In one shot of the first set of pictures you can see four or more soldiers (from another unit). Right there, that's more than the oft quoted "6 or 7" bad apples. You don't even have to be able to count very high to realize it was IMPOSSIBLE for only "6 or 7" to be involved. This isn't "jumping to conclusions" or anything, it is just some common sense and a little math any third grader should be able to handle. Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA We are the CroMagnon of the future |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
On Wed, 12 May 2004 12:45:46 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote: That's a fair question. It seems that the short answer to increase threat levels is "be more vigilant, but on with your life". Realistically, there's little else an individual can do. We have to expect that any specific threat will be dealt with by the authorities. Right. The same folks that told us "everything changed on 9/11. We are no longer protected by two oceans." During the entire "duck and cover" era I, and I'll bet I'm not alone, did NOT feel protected by two oceans. I don't know many people who felt oceans were much protection against ICBMs. I can't remember a soul in Texas during the Cuban missile crisis that felt much protection, either. As far as dealing with threats, there is a lot of expense going on at airports regarding passengers and what they can carry. If the cockpit door is secured (and I have talked about this several times with my brother, a retired USMC pilot who after his Marine career piloted some of that heavy metal for commercial airlines) then it doesn't matter what the passengers carry. They can carry AK-47s if they want, they still aren't going to get control of the plane if the cockpit is secure. That and instructing pilots that it would be a possible "shoot down" type of offence if they deviate from their flight schedules. Bingo. Never again will a commercial aircraft fly into a skyscraper, and passengers needn't even be bothered. The vagueness of the warnings is annoying, but they're apparently based on increases in non-specific "chatter", so what other option is there? I guess they could just say nothing, but I don't see that as helpful. I'd guess doing effective stuff doesn't suit the current administration's goals as well as frightening the public. Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA We are the CroMagnon of the future |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
I already wondered these past couple of days if we're going to see
similar pictures of helicopters being pushed off aircraft carrier decks to make room for more helicopters flying in from the mainland as the US and British troops along with their local henchmen retreat from Iraq. What a mess. -- Wilko van den Bergh Wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations. http://wilko.webzone.ru/ Yep, this is a rerun. Only this time, with a little different results. When they get through kicking our sorry a$$es out of Iraq, They'll be in Saudi settling a few old scores there. Guess who'll be riding the friggin donkeys then. Dennis |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Galen Hekhuis wrote:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bal...4195.story?co= ll=3Dbal-home-headlines ... I couldn't get the link to work.=20=20 Accused of Abuse, Soldier Goes From Patriot to Pariah By Ariel Sabar, Sun National Staff Copyright =A9 2004 by The Baltimore Sun=20 Originally published May 9, 2004 BUCKINGHAM, Va. -- Before he was charged with abusing prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, Staff Sgt. Ivan L. "Chip" Frederick II displayed a patriotism that bordered on zealotry. He took American flags from wherever the 372nd Military Police Company was conducting a mission, inscribed them with his location that day - Al-Hillah, Camp Arifjan - folded them into tidy squares, and mailed them in plastic bags to his wife. He responded in earnest handwritten letters to the fan mail he got from schoolchildren near his home in the central Virginia countryside. He once told a fellow guard at the state prison near here that he was so eager to get to Iraq that he would volunteer to go if the Army didn't see fit to mobilize his unit. "My spirits have been very high," Frederick, 37, wrote in a letter to his mother in July, two months after his arrival in Iraq. "I just go with the flow and look out for No. 1." But his self-assurance appeared to crack the moment the 372nd took over guard duties at Abu Ghraib in October. He worked a 4 p.m. to 4 a.m. shift seven days a week and slept in a 7-foot-by-9-foot cell that shook during mortar attacks on the prison. In the first two weeks, he wrote in a letter to his parents, the inmates under his supervision swelled from 400 to 800. Nothing about Abu Ghraib, infamous under Saddam Hussein as a site of torture, rape and murder, resembled the medium-security prison in rural Virginia where Frederick had worked as a guard since 1996. In a November letter to his father, he grappled with his feelings about the "hands on" techniques the soldiers used to discipline prisoners. The inmates "told me that is very humiliating," he writes of the practice of placing them on their knees with noses against the wall. "A lot end up crying. Sometimes I feel sorry for them but then I realize that they are the reason I am here and the feeling goes away." Interviews with Frederick's family, former co-workers and childhood acquaintances, and a review of several dozen letters to his relatives paint a portrait of a small-town man of limited horizons, lost in a chaotic, unfamiliar environment with few rules and little oversight. Frederick is both the highest-ranking soldier to be charged by the military in the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal, and the reason it has become so public a spectacle. His family's decision to take their son's story to CBS News thrust a military secret onto the international airwaves and has handed the Bush administration one of its biggest public relations problems since the start of the Iraqi conflict. His working-class family - his father is a retired miner and amateur stock-car racer, his mother a retired secretary - is waging a public campaign to portray their son as a scapegoat of military intelligence officers and civilian contractors who goaded him and his subordinates to "soften up" prisoners for interrogation. They launched a Web site, www.freechipfrederick.com, Friday. But all the hoopla belies a sober reality: Frederick faces an almost-certain court-martial and what his attorney has told him may be seven years in prison for his role in the horrific torture and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners. His subordinates=20 Frederick commanded a half-dozen reservists and 70 Iraqi guards in a section of Abu Ghraib, where military intelligence officers and civilian contractors interrogated inmates. Several of the American soldiers under his direct supervision can be seen in photographs grinning and flashing thumbs-up signs beside naked Iraqi prisoners. A recently published photo shows him sitting on a prisoner - he wrote in an e-mail to his family last week that this was a "last resort" to "protect [the prisoner] from injuring himself or others." Hearing transcripts cited in a New Yorker magazine article describe Frederick striking a prisoner in the ribcage without provocation. Matthew Carl Wisdom, a reservist quoted in the transcripts, said that as Frederick walked away from two naked Iraqis forced to simulate oral sex, Frederick said, "Look what these animals do when you leave them alone for two seconds." Unlike most of the reservists facing charges, he was no youngster. He had been in the Reserves for 20 years. Several people who knew Frederick in Garrett County in Western Maryland, where he spent the first 29 years of his life, say that he could be aloof and arrogant, quick with put-downs and pranks, and at times deaf to the emotional effects of his words. But the lanky, 6-foot-tall Frederick was always more bark than bite - no one recalls any violent tendencies. "He'd just joke around," recalled Gary Wildman, who trained with him in a National Guard company before Frederick joined the Reserves. "But it was never to an extreme." Frederick was a typical high school student, devoting as much time to the basketball and baseball teams and off-road racing as to his studies. His mother cried when he told her he would pass on college and instead enlist - along with nearly a quarter of his senior class - in the military. He joined the Oakland detachment of the Maryland National Guard's 121st Engineer Company, nicknamed the Hillbilly Warriors for the backcountry towns from which it drew members. He lived with his parents until his late 20s and worked at a nearby Bausch & Lomb plant, grinding lenses for expensive Ray-Ban sunglasses at a job that left his hands red and chafed by day's end. He took a severance package in the mid-90s when the company cut costs, but his efforts to launch a career in law-enforcement foundered. He started classes in criminal justice at Allegany College of Maryland but dropped out before getting his associate's degree. The Virginia State Police rejected his application to be a trooper. (Officials there said they cannot comment on individual applicants but said that just 5 percent to 8 percent get jobs.) He found just one outlet for his budding interest in law enforcement: the Army Reserve's 372nd Military Police Company, based in Cresaptown. He left the National Guard in 1995 to join the unit. And even after landing the corrections officer job at Virginia's Buckingham Correctional Center the next year, he stuck with the unit, commuting more than four hours to train. He met his wife, Martha, who had two daughters from previous relationships, within his first few weeks at Buckingham. She was an instructor there and taught the rookie guards. During a break in class, he won her over with a wisecrack about his talent for giving boots a military shine. She didn't share his love for NASCAR racing, but they often passed time together fishing for bass. At Virginia prison=20 His colleagues at Buckingham said he had a reputation as a competent corrections officer and won a promotion. He was reprimanded just once, they said - for leaving his tie at home. John Bartee, a supervisor at Buckingham, remembered that Frederick pushed himself relentlessly, eager to stay fit enough and train hard enough to reach the next rung in his civilian and military careers. "He had this value of excelling - of being a little above the rest," Bartee said. The first of his many letters from Iraq, all penned in neat print, are filled with observations about stray camels, the lousy food, baby wipes and the joy he feels when a group of Iraqi children lines up to shake his hand. But by the fall, after his assignment to Abu Ghraib, his tone darkens. He dwells in his letters home on the horrors of the Hussein-era death chamber and the mass graves. He writes of inmates with chest scars, and missing ears and fingers. "The inmates are used to physical beatings, torture and executions, so they don't act like the inmates I'm used to dealing with," he wrote in October. "All [the prisoners] are plain scared to death. They think we are going to execute them, like Saddam did. We are not allowed to carry any weapons inside, so we depend on our own hands." He does not offer specifics. At 2:30 a.m. on Jan. 14, Capt. Donald J. Reese, the 372nd's commander, knocked on his door. Army investigators were outside. They wanted to talk. Family's actions=20 Frederick's family tried to persuade the Army to discharge Frederick and take away his pension, arguing that his actions were the result of orders given by others. Frederick's uncle, Bill Lawson, a retired Air Force master sergeant, said in an interview last week that the family also sent letters for help to 17 members of Congress. When the Army refused and the members of Congress replied with form letters, Lawson contacted retired Col. David Hackworth, a syndicated columnist, who helped the family get in touch with Mary Mapes, a producer for CBS's 60 Minutes II, which broke the story. "We gave [the military] the opportunity to have none of this come out," Lawson said. "They could have avoided all of this." Frederick now awaits a court-martial, date unknown, and is restricted to Camp Victory, in Baghdad. He picks up trash, paints curbs and cuts tree limbs. He has to check in several times a day with a senior officer= .. His waiting wife=20 At a neatly kept double-wide trailer in Buckingham last week, his wife wore a haunted look as she took a break from the parade of reporters and camera crews calling and knocking day and night. She said that she was the one who encouraged him to keep the now widely publicized journal of his observations about the prison abuses. She said he had raised questions all along about what he says was pressure from military intelligence officers to torment prisoners. She believed that putting those questions in writing, even if it might seem self-serving now, would help his case. "He's not this rogue person," she said, as if in a trance, "or this monster or this type of person who's gone bad." Two days later in Garrett County, Frederick's father, Ivan "Red" Frederick, was sitting in his rocking chair when his son phoned from Iraq. Chip Frederick's voice was flat, the conversation strained by awkward silences. "We get all kinds of sympathy cards - everybody is hoping for the best," his father said, trying to buck him up. "It ain't over till the fat lady sings." But the response was one of dejection. "I ain't even heard her warm up yet," his son said. There was nothing more to say, so they said goodbye. |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
On Wed, 12 May 2004 17:59:35 -0000, Bill Tuthill
wrote: Galen Hekhuis wrote: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bal...home-headlines ... I couldn't get the link to work. Accused of Abuse, Soldier Goes From Patriot to Pariah By Ariel Sabar, Sun National Staff Copyright © 2004 by The Baltimore Sun Originally published May 9, 2004 ... Thanks Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA We are the CroMagnon of the future |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
|
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
|
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Wilko wrote in message ...
Paddlec1 wrote: Yep, just an "isolated incident". Here's something from the CBC. "3000 Prisoners Slaughtered in Afganastan This video is about how the US slaughtered 3000 Afgan prisoners of war. The video is big - 55 megs download and it is shocking. It makes the Black Hole of Calcutta look like a picnic. These prisoners were left in sealed truck containers to suffocate and fry in the hot sun. The few that survived a week were taken out and shot an buried in mass graves. The video is EXTREMELY disturbing and it will give you nightmares. If you are not ready to see this footage - DO NOT WATCH IT !!! This is NAZI level stuff." http://marc.perkel.com/images/AfganPOWsKilled.mov The funny thing is that this documentary was shown on German and Dutch TV almost two years ago, not too long after the invasion of Afghanistan. I posted about seeing it in a thread about the war in Afghanistan on Boatertalk, and got a wave of resentment and being called a liar because it wasn't shown on any U.S. TV station, therefore it wasn't true. If only that link had been available then. :( The sad thing is you are so ignorant and arrogant you beleive this crap, as if you are the only one who is aware. Bull****... Yes I know coming back to this group and picking on one of the biggest trolls will get me the warnings and physical threats I got last time from Dennis and others who of course love free speech until it is not in line with their agenda but you guys and your little circle jerk are getting a little out of touch with the real world... |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Galen Hekhuis wrote: On Wed, 12 May 2004 12:45:46 GMT, Brian Nystrom wrote: That's a fair question. It seems that the short answer to increase threat levels is "be more vigilant, but on with your life". Realistically, there's little else an individual can do. We have to expect that any specific threat will be dealt with by the authorities. Right. The same folks that told us "everything changed on 9/11. We are no longer protected by two oceans." During the entire "duck and cover" era I, and I'll bet I'm not alone, did NOT feel protected by two oceans. I don't know many people who felt oceans were much protection against ICBMs. I can't remember a soul in Texas during the Cuban missile crisis that felt much protection, either. As far as dealing with threats, there is a lot of expense going on at airports regarding passengers and what they can carry. If the cockpit door is secured (and I have talked about this several times with my brother, a retired USMC pilot who after his Marine career piloted some of that heavy metal for commercial airlines) then it doesn't matter what the passengers carry. They can carry AK-47s if they want, they still aren't going to get control of the plane if the cockpit is secure. That and instructing pilots that it would be a possible "shoot down" type of offence if they deviate from their flight schedules. Bingo. Never again will a commercial aircraft fly into a skyscraper, and passengers needn't even be bothered. Well, it's not quite that simple. I agree that the restrictions on what passengers can carry have gone overboard, but it's important to make sure that they don't carry anything that could be used to damage the aircraft catestrophically. Firearms definitely fall into that category. Years ago, I carried ice axes on a plane once, but I wouldn't try to do that again. The vagueness of the warnings is annoying, but they're apparently based on increases in non-specific "chatter", so what other option is there? I guess they could just say nothing, but I don't see that as helpful. I'd guess doing effective stuff doesn't suit the current administration's goals as well as frightening the public. That's a completely unfair characterization. The warning system has a purpose, which is to make the public aware of possible threats and to enlist their aid in watching for problems. Rather than making sweeping criticisms motivated by your disdain for the administration, why don't you propose some better ideas? "Effective stuff" is not exactly specific or helpful, is it? |
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