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OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Wilko wrote:
I know, I know... but one can always hope... I just hope that he isn't as dumb as Bush when it comes to alienating the world and turning the U.S. into a nation under terror. It doesn't matter, as he's never going to get the chance. ;-) Every time I watch U.S. news (whether it be NBC, CNN or CBS), I wonder why people are being constantly being made afraid with messages from the government and media. It must be that the only way the U.S. government can get away with unconstitutional limitations or individual's freedom is by saying that it's necessary because of the constant threats. You have an incredibly skewed view of life here. It's nothing at all like you're imagining it to be. Other than noticeably tigher security at airports, seaports and public events, life has changed very little here. I don't know why you think we're all running scared, as that simply isn't true. We've become used to the exaggerations of the media and most people just take it all in stride. I'm sure there are some people here that are like those in your dreams, but I certainly don't know any. |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Galen Hekhuis wrote:
On Thu, 06 May 2004 23:44:30 GMT, Brian Nystrom wrote: That depends on how you define "isolated". I'm assuming that this has happened more than once, but that hardly makes it systemic. ... Wait a minute. We are expected to believe that these reservists came up with things that Muslims specifically would see as humiliating? All by themselves with no help? Do you think they took Arab Humiliation courses at their local community college? Well, I think it's safe to say that anyone would have found it humiliating. Regardless, it's entirely possible that they were coached, directed and/or encouraged. If so, the people who did so should be punished at least as severely as those who perpetrated the acts. However, that doesn't mean that all guards, supervisors and the like are guilty or that these things occurred at all facilities. Time will tell. |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
On Tue, 11 May 2004 21:22:49 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote: ... You have an incredibly skewed view of life here. It's nothing at all like you're imagining it to be. Other than noticeably tigher security at airports, seaports and public events, life has changed very little here. I don't know why you think we're all running scared, as that simply isn't true. We've become used to the exaggerations of the media and most people just take it all in stride. Just out of curiosity, what are we supposed to do when they raise/lower the "terror threat level"? I'll agree, little has changed here other than tighter security at some places and stuff, but if you think the media is exaggerating stuff you haven't heard some recent government pronouncements predicting a terrorist attack before long. Scared? Not me, personally, but I think the public as a whole is to varying degrees. And the darned thing is there all these frightened people running around and all the government tells them is to be alert and go shopping. Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA We are the CroMagnon of the future |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Fiona wrote: Galen Hekhuis wrote in message . .. On Thu, 06 May 2004 23:44:30 GMT, Brian Nystrom wrote: That depends on how you define "isolated". I'm assuming that this has happened more than once, but that hardly makes it systemic. ... Wait a minute. We are expected to believe that these reservists came up with things that Muslims specifically would see as humiliating? All by themselves with no help? Do you think they took Arab Humiliation courses at their local community college? Galen I think anyone would be humiliated at this stuff. I did not see anything that would not fill a Christian or a pagan with absolute disgust . Agreed. brian : i was being sarcastic. the world knows that iraq had nothing to do with the trade tower bombings . WMD's are sort of in doubt right now too. Sure. in an earier post I mentioned what happened to a friend . i am pretty angry about that. soldiers are not policing themselves in a mannor appropriate for the circomstance. US soldiers (and brits) are finding themselves in the same circomstance that i would imagine the germans did with the jews. dehuminize the foe and they can be mistreated or even exterminated. the germans are not an ignorant barbaric race, as a nation quite the oposite : but they did what they did and now we are getting a lesson on how this can happen. Point well taken. War definitely brings out the dark side of the human psyche in many people. It's an ugly business. i saw a night vision video of three men being shot by machine gun a couple of nights ago. they were unarmed. When did it happen? What was the context? We're they just hanging around on the street having a cigarette? Were they approaching a checkpoint and refusing to stop when ordered? Without more information, it's impossible to say whether the actions were justified and unfortunate, or crimial and punishable. the humiliation the men in that iraqi prison were put through was not just stuff that would play on the Islamic mind , it would be a crime against anyone. Agreed. what you are looking at is an attitude. young men have absolute power over a people that can't speak the language to complain and if they can they are afraid to. this has hapened before; and will again. Sadly, I'm sure you're right. the truly sad thing is there is now way out. we had a program played here in Canada , A W5 CBC production . It was about the bush , bin laden ties and soudi arabia. It was most interesting. going to war seams easy. how george gets you out of it is going to be a task. That was known beforehand. The people crying about it are the ADD, short attention span crowd who want everything RIGHT NOW. That was never going to happen and anyone with any sense knows that. Yes, there have been unexpected twists and turns and attendant changes in strategy and tactics, but that's the nature of war. War is untidy. War is unpredictable. People forget that for every person here who was/is strategizing, there's a counterpart on the other side who's trying to undermine that strategy. It's huge, deadly chess match. The outcome is never certain until it happens. though i dissagree with your view you are quite eliquent. i an sure you don't carry a natural hatred for arabs at large, right now though the coalition of the willing seams to. I don't agree with that at all, neither from the military of civilian perspectives. The overwhelming majority of those involve have no hatred of Arabs at all and would rather be helping to build schools and hospitals and other infrastructure than fighting insurgents. I absolutely refuse to believe that we are the bad guys in this situation, the actions of a few miscreants notwithstanding. the news not allowed out of iraq is frightening . your own media is not allowed to show coffins, body bags or the bodies of dead US soldiers. Think what you will, but that's out of respect for the dead and their families. There is no shortage of news about casualties. PBS has a roll call of them every night on the news. Information about them is published on several government web sites and updated in a timely manner. Hell, Nightline did a program where they read off names for the entire show! No one is hiding information regarding those who've made the ultimate sacrifice. i think you will change your mind, eventually ( 10 years or so ) but only if i am wrong.... I doubt it, but you never know. The problem now is that everyone is emotionally involved. Years from now when the final outcome is known and we can look at the war dispassionately, it will be easier to determine whether it was the right thing to do or not. I thought that Vietnam was wrong at the time and I still do now, though perhaps not for the same reasons that you might feel that way (if you do). |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
On Tue, 11 May 2004 21:28:15 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote: Well, I think it's safe to say that anyone would have found it humiliating. Regardless, it's entirely possible that they were coached, directed and/or encouraged. If so, the people who did so should be punished at least as severely as those who perpetrated the acts. However, that doesn't mean that all guards, supervisors and the like are guilty or that these things occurred at all facilities. Time will tell. I just don't see how two separate units (that we know of so far) came up with all of this on their lonesome. I know there is a whole lot of political pressure to limit this to the "just 6 or 7 individuals" as was made abundantly clear in the Senate hearings today, but in all honesty how can anyone conclude that this is just limited to a few miscreants? Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA We are the CroMagnon of the future |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Galen Hekhuis wrote: On Tue, 11 May 2004 21:22:49 GMT, Brian Nystrom wrote: ... You have an incredibly skewed view of life here. It's nothing at all like you're imagining it to be. Other than noticeably tigher security at airports, seaports and public events, life has changed very little here. I don't know why you think we're all running scared, as that simply isn't true. We've become used to the exaggerations of the media and most people just take it all in stride. Just out of curiosity, what are we supposed to do when they raise/lower the "terror threat level"? I'll agree, little has changed here other than tighter security at some places and stuff, but if you think the media is exaggerating stuff you haven't heard some recent government pronouncements predicting a terrorist attack before long. Scared? Not me, personally, but I think the public as a whole is to varying degrees. And the darned thing is there all these frightened people running around and all the government tells them is to be alert and go shopping. That's a fair question. It seems that the short answer to increase threat levels is "be more vigilant, but on with your life". Realistically, there's little else an individual can do. We have to expect that any specific threat will be dealt with by the authorities. The vagueness of the warnings is annoying, but they're apparently based on increases in non-specific "chatter", so what other option is there? I guess they could just say nothing, but I don't see that as helpful. |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Galen Hekhuis wrote: On Tue, 11 May 2004 21:28:15 GMT, Brian Nystrom wrote: Well, I think it's safe to say that anyone would have found it humiliating. Regardless, it's entirely possible that they were coached, directed and/or encouraged. If so, the people who did so should be punished at least as severely as those who perpetrated the acts. However, that doesn't mean that all guards, supervisors and the like are guilty or that these things occurred at all facilities. Time will tell. I just don't see how two separate units (that we know of so far) came up with all of this on their lonesome. It's quite possible that they didn't. I know there is a whole lot of political pressure to limit this to the "just 6 or 7 individuals" as was made abundantly clear in the Senate hearings today, but in all honesty how can anyone conclude that this is just limited to a few miscreants? I don't think anyone has drawn any concrete conclusions. Investigations are ongoing. Let's see where they lead before we jump to any conclusions. |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
Galen Hekhuis wrote:
I just don't see how two separate units (that we know of so far) came up with all of this on their lonesome. I know there is a whole lot of political pressure to limit this to the "just 6 or 7 individuals" as was made abundantly clear in the Senate hearings today, but in all honesty how can anyone conclude that this is just limited to a few miscreants? Some sources say that these torture techniques are taught by CIA and MI (military intelligence) because they break down prisoners without causing so much physical damage that death is possible or likely. Here is the most informative article I have seen so far about the origin of the "Six Morons Who Lost the War" situation. (BTW, it's interesting that the Pentagon implies by this phrase that they have lost the war.) Looks like Staff Sergeant Ivan "Chip" Frederick II decided to go public rather than accept an undefended court martial. http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bal...home-headlines |
OT and contentious: Torture photos from Iraq
seldom_seen wrote: Does anyone else recognize this language, and get a bit of a chill from it? "We provided advisors, in particular fire control and forward air controllers, to the Northern Alliance. The US did not command the unit nor have control over the action of its troops." Hint: Think 1965. Yep, I couldn't help but make the same connection. I already wondered these past couple of days if we're going to see similar pictures of helicopters being pushed off aircraft carrier decks to make room for more helicopters flying in from the mainland as the US and British troops along with their local henchmen retreat from Iraq. What a mess. -- Wilko van den Bergh Wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations. http://wilko.webzone.ru/ |
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