BOB wrote in message ]...

Oh I see... in a +500 mile strech of coatline you *know* that no one
uses a Bayliner for any Commerical applications.

I said "offshore, six pack, fishing or diving charter" not "commercial
applications" which could mean putt-putting around docks in the ICW.
An "application" Bayliners are eminently suited for.

You pull a statement completely out of you ass and it's up to me to prove it wrong?

There are no Bayliners in use for the type of operation I mentioned,
in that area, trust me

Just for argument, how many of those captains use Chris-Crafts, Jerseys,
Larsons, Wellcrafts, Four Winns, etc...

I've seen a few Wellcraft CC's in use down in the Keys for diving
op's.

IIRC none of the other brands you mention are in that market.

Bayliner is, or so they think.

Possible past Bayliner quality control problems, cheaper price, cheaper
fit and finish, and lower power offerings of the base models....

Well now, look who's "ragging" on Bayliner.

Okay, I'll bite. "I wonder why Bayliners are not popular among this
small contingent of boaters".

You may wish to refer to your own words, quoted above. I'll just add
one more he You'll also take a bath when you finally wise up and
try and sell/trade up the damn thing.

Look in any of the local papers and you'll see -ten- Bayliners for
sale ad's for -one- of any other brand of boat. The classified ad
section is like a Bayliner "rendezvous".


I endeavor to be a jerk all of the time but as you can see, nobody's
perfect.

Keep it up, you getting closer I think you're getting to your goal.

I try not to disappoint.

If your comment is that my boating environment is not demanding, and that is the reason, I am happy with Bayliners, then it is you who need to take my
word that I have been in Bayliners in demanding conditions, or come up her
and see for yourself.

I saw your "great bayliner story", and Chuck Gould (as usual) made the
necessary post pointing out your all too typical, overly enthusiastic
newbie power boater, foolhardiness. Take a cab, bus, call a
friend/relative, ect, to get home next time.

But since you bring it up, you've been powerboating since 1999, right?

You had that 16'er for one whole "season", right?

You put an awe inspiring "250 miles" on it, right? (I've done half
that in one weekend)

That would mean you've had your current boat for less than 3 years,
right?

Why don't you come back when you get a little experience and let the
poundings you like to submit yourself to begin to take their toll on
your boat. Just because you were very fortunate one time doesn't prove
much either, Mr Logic, except for some exceedingly poor judgement on
your part.

Better yet go to www.boatnerd.com and look for information on Lake Erie.

I am well aware of the Great Lakes.

This means that not all Bayliners can be dismissed as crap, and people who
feel the need to single out and dismiss all Bayliners, are behaving in
an ignorant manner.

I never said they were "crap".

I said where I see them and, where I do not see them.

We know what people do where I see them and, what they do where I do
not see them.

People can draw their own conclusions.
--
SJM

Scott McFadden wrote:
BOB wrote in message ]...

Oh I see... in a +500 mile strech of coatline you *know* that no one
uses a Bayliner for any Commerical applications.

I said "offshore, six pack, fishing or diving charter" not "commercial
applications" which could mean putt-putting around docks in the ICW.
An "application" Bayliners are eminently suited for.

One of Bob's problems is that he is not a careful reader, as the rest of
your post here makes perfectly clear.




You pull a statement completely out of you ass and it's up to me to prove it wrong?

There are no Bayliners in use for the type of operation I mentioned,
in that area, trust me

Just for argument, how many of those captains use Chris-Crafts, Jerseys,
Larsons, Wellcrafts, Four Winns, etc...

I've seen a few Wellcraft CC's in use down in the Keys for diving
op's.

IIRC none of the other brands you mention are in that market.

Bayliner is, or so they think.

Possible past Bayliner quality control problems, cheaper price, cheaper
fit and finish, and lower power offerings of the base models....

Well now, look who's "ragging" on Bayliner.

Okay, I'll bite. "I wonder why Bayliners are not popular among this
small contingent of boaters".

You may wish to refer to your own words, quoted above. I'll just add
one more he You'll also take a bath when you finally wise up and
try and sell/trade up the damn thing.

Look in any of the local papers and you'll see -ten- Bayliners for
sale ad's for -one- of any other brand of boat. The classified ad
section is like a Bayliner "rendezvous".


I endeavor to be a jerk all of the time but as you can see, nobody's
perfect.

Keep it up, you getting closer I think you're getting to your goal.

I try not to disappoint.

If your comment is that my boating environment is not demanding, and that is the reason, I am happy with Bayliners, then it is you who need to take my
word that I have been in Bayliners in demanding conditions, or come up her
and see for yourself.

I saw your "great bayliner story", and Chuck Gould (as usual) made the
necessary post pointing out your all too typical, overly enthusiastic
newbie power boater, foolhardiness. Take a cab, bus, call a
friend/relative, ect, to get home next time.

But since you bring it up, you've been powerboating since 1999, right?

You had that 16'er for one whole "season", right?

You put an awe inspiring "250 miles" on it, right? (I've done half
that in one weekend)

That would mean you've had your current boat for less than 3 years,
right?

Why don't you come back when you get a little experience and let the
poundings you like to submit yourself to begin to take their toll on
your boat. Just because you were very fortunate one time doesn't prove
much either, Mr Logic, except for some exceedingly poor judgement on
your part.

Better yet go to www.boatnerd.com and look for information on Lake Erie.

I am well aware of the Great Lakes.

This means that not all Bayliners can be dismissed as crap, and people who
feel the need to single out and dismiss all Bayliners, are behaving in
an ignorant manner.

I never said they were "crap".

I said where I see them and, where I do not see them.

We know what people do where I see them and, what they do where I do
not see them.

People can draw their own conclusions.
--
SJM


--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

In article , Harry Krause
wrote:

Scott McFadden wrote:
BOB wrote in message
]...

Oh I see... in a +500 mile strech of coatline you *know* that no one
uses a Bayliner for any Commerical applications.

I said "offshore, six pack, fishing or diving charter" not "commercial
applications" which could mean putt-putting around docks in the ICW.
An "application" Bayliners are eminently suited for.

One of Bob's problems is that he is not a careful reader, as the rest of
your post here makes perfectly clear.



I am a careful reader, just not a gullible one. I'm to believe he knows
every fishing vessel on a 500 mile coastliine, then infer the viability of
Bayliners based on a loose inference.

You too should get along very good. You both have similar definitions for
facts.

I should also point out that I am a terrible typist, speller, and use
incorrect grammar, but y'all ready knew that! :^)



I am a careful reader, just not a gullible one. I'm to believe he knows
every fishing vessel on a 500 mile coastliine, then infer the viability of
Bayliners based on a loose inference.

You too should get along very good. You both have similar definitions for
facts.

Bob D. wrote:

In article , Harry Krause
wrote:

Scott McFadden wrote:
BOB wrote in message
]...

Oh I see... in a +500 mile strech of coatline you *know* that no one
uses a Bayliner for any Commerical applications.

I said "offshore, six pack, fishing or diving charter" not "commercial
applications" which could mean putt-putting around docks in the ICW.
An "application" Bayliners are eminently suited for.

One of Bob's problems is that he is not a careful reader, as the rest of
your post here makes perfectly clear.



I am a careful reader, just not a gullible one. I'm to believe he knows
every fishing vessel on a 500 mile coastliine, then infer the viability of
Bayliners based on a loose inference.

You too should get along very good. You both have similar definitions for
facts.


Well, I fished off the Georgia-Florida Coast for six years, several
times a week and at least one day on the weekend (unless the weather was
horrible), and in the ICW and so forth, and in all those years, I saw
one Bayliner Trophy engaged in offshore fishing. In fact, I knew the
owner of that boat. I generally fished from the St. Mary's River in
Georgia down past St. Augustine in Florida, an area with, literally,
thousands of small fishing boats and hundreds of larger ones. I don't
even see that many Bayliner Trophies on Chesapeake Bay, although I do
see plenty of Bayliners.



--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

Well, I fished off the Georgia-Florida Coast for six years, several
times a week and at least one day on the weekend (unless the weather was
horrible), and in the ICW and so forth, and in all those years, I saw
one Bayliner Trophy engaged in offshore fishing. In fact, I knew the
owner of that boat. I generally fished from the St. Mary's River in
Georgia down past St. Augustine in Florida, an area with, literally,
thousands of small fishing boats and hundreds of larger ones. I don't
even see that many Bayliner Trophies on Chesapeake Bay, although I do
see plenty of Bayliners.



I have absolutly no problem with that statement. But, let's be honest,
Harry, because you didn't see them does that really mean that they don't
exist? Can you at least entertain the possibility that you don't know
every boat in this vast area, and there may be more than just ONE trophy
going offshore? It really doesn't mean your statement is less valid, it
just means that in such a boad expanse, it's impossible to know
everything.

It is one thing to state "in all those years, I saw one Bayliner Trophy
engaged in offshore fishing" It's quite another thing to state there is
not ONE Trophy used for charter in 500 miles of developed coastline, as
Scott has directly stated. How can he possibly have knowledge of that
fact? That is why I accuse Scott of pulling "facts" out of his ass. He
could have just as categorically stated Trophys are the only boats boats
used by charter captains in this 500 mile area, it still adds up to the
same bull****.

My argument with Scott, you or anyone, isn't that Bayliner isn't
unpopular, or is best choice for a specific region or for a spefic
purpose. I argue that if a Bayliner model is not suited for a specific
application, their are other comparable models from other brands that are
probably unsuitable as well. As such Bayliner should not be singled out.

I have tried to be objective, and keep an open mind by not using my
experience to say "Bayliners are great", I really do think they are for
their price, but I think people have a point when they say their not
interested in owning one.

But I think you and others should give due consideration to my assertion
that not all Bayliners are "bad", therefore Bayliners should not be so
globally maligned, without provocation as you and others have done in the
past, that all.

You don't have to like 'em, but I believe when you go snubbing or bashing
any person or boat in this group, without giving due consideration, you
are being rude and doing the entire group a disservice.

Bob Dimond

"Bob D." wrote in message
...



Well, I fished off the Georgia-Florida Coast for six years, several
times a week and at least one day on the weekend (unless the weather was
horrible), and in the ICW and so forth, and in all those years, I saw
one Bayliner Trophy engaged in offshore fishing. In fact, I knew the
owner of that boat. I generally fished from the St. Mary's River in
Georgia down past St. Augustine in Florida, an area with, literally,
thousands of small fishing boats and hundreds of larger ones. I don't
even see that many Bayliner Trophies on Chesapeake Bay, although I do
see plenty of Bayliners.



I have absolutly no problem with that statement. But, let's be honest,
Harry, because you didn't see them does that really mean that they don't
exist?

Let's not get too existential in here, eh?

It is one thing to state "in all those years, I saw one Bayliner Trophy
engaged in offshore fishing" It's quite another thing to state there is
not ONE Trophy used for charter in 500 miles of developed coastline, as
Scott has directly stated.

There was one Bayliner Trophy used by a near-shore charter captain out of
Jax. The only one I ever saw in all the years I fished that area.

My argument with Scott, you or anyone, isn't that Bayliner isn't
unpopular, or is best choice for a specific region or for a spefic
purpose. I argue that if a Bayliner model is not suited for a specific
application, their are other comparable models from other brands that are
probably unsuitable as well. As such Bayliner should not be singled out.

Why not? I've been aboard enough Bayliner Trophy boats to form an opinion
about them.


But I think you and others should give due consideration to my assertion
that not all Bayliners are "bad", therefore Bayliners should not be so
globally maligned, without provocation as you and others have done in the
past, that all.

Indeed, some Bayliners have worked their way up to mediocre.

Bob, I have no interest in "all" Bayliners or even very many of them.
I have looked over the Trophies extensively over the years and determined
their shortcomings are such I would not want one.

Most of the larger non-Trophy Bayliners do not even slightly interest me,
because they are too underpowered, too flat-bottomed, powered with I/O's,.
have small fuel tanks, and so forth and so on. And I haven't addressed
qualitative issues.

My argument with Scott, you or anyone, isn't that Bayliner isn't
unpopular, or is best choice for a specific region or for a spefic
purpose. I argue that if a Bayliner model is not suited for a specific
application, their are other comparable models from other brands that are
probably unsuitable as well. As such Bayliner should not be singled out.

Why not? I've been aboard enough Bayliner Trophy boats to form an opinion
about them.


Since you commented on my statement, I will refer to the same statement.
Do you mean to tell me oof ALL the current brands of comparable boats ONLY
BAYLINER TROPHIES are unsuitable enough to merit bad remarks? If the
answer is "no" then:

Why do you insist on singling out Bayliner?

Why do you think that citing only the shortcommings of Bayliner boats,
overlooking the shortcomming of other brands, is unbiased?

If you answer is "yes" and you've never seen quality problems in ANY other
brands you've boarded (and I would find that hard to believe), then
perhaps you do have a point in your remarks. That point is that your
experince indicates only Bayliner that is crap. But the other point may
be, you don't have the experience to say all other brands AREN'T crap.

So if you wrongly single out Bayliners, then your behaving in a
irresponsible bigoted manner. For reasonable people that should be reason
enough why you should not continue. Obviously it's still your choice
though.


But I think you and others should give due consideration to my assertion
that not all Bayliners are "bad", therefore Bayliners should not be so
globally maligned, without provocation as you and others have done in the
past, that all.

Indeed, some Bayliners have worked their way up to mediocre.


Indeed. Which Bayliners Harry? In what context (boating environment) are
you referring to where these select few have "achieved" your elevated
status of mediocrity? Specifically, in what way did these boats
differentiate themselves from other boats in the brand?

Once again, in lieu of a reasonable statement, you throw out a smart ass
comment like this and expect people to just take it at face value? You
make this comment and really believe that you "never infered all Bayliners
are "crap""?

You need to spend a little less time being "clever" at Bayliners expense,
and a little more time taking what you write into consideration.

Bob, I have no interest in "all" Bayliners or even very many of them.
I have looked over the Trophies extensively over the years and determined
their shortcomings are such I would not want one.


Okay, that's understandable. IMHO you've made a perfectly resonable statement.

Most of the larger non-Trophy Bayliners do not even slightly interest me,
because they are too underpowered, too flat-bottomed, powered with I/O's,.
have small fuel tanks, and so forth and so on. And I haven't addressed
qualitative issues.

IMHO that is a somewhat unreasonable statement, because you are now citing
shortcomings that are widely known over a variety of boat brands, but
sticking the Bayliner name with the blame. If ONLY Bayliner were guilty
of these shortcomings listed, it would be a reasonable statement. But
I've seen examples that this is not even remotely the case. This, and
alot of other statements you've made in the past, tend to hold only
Bayliner accountable for common practices throughout the industry.
HONESTLY Harry, you don't see this pattern with your posts? You HONESTLY
think you give Bayliners a fair shake in ALL of your comments?

We've seen many reasonable statements and anectodotal evidence as why
Bayliners does not merit first consideration from many boaters. Some of
those statements were made by you. In this thread, I've tried not to
argue against any reasonable statement.

In contrast, I've made, and seen reasonable statements and anectdotal
evidence of Bayliners being used and enjoyed for many power boating
applications. If we take both viewpoints at face value, it is a
reasonable inference that not all Bayliners are universally "bad" for
every application.

In light of this, people who feel the need to continue, to contradict this
inferred truism, by belittling this brand name in global terms, without
clarification or facts, and without provocation, are IMHO acting in a rude
manner, doing a disservice to the rec.boats community as a whole, and
should be dismissed as:

Boating snobs, who derive security in the "us vs. them" mentality.

Little trolls, who take some perverse pleasure in inciting disharmony.

Just plain ignorant, being either, too stupid, too lazy ,or small minded,
to take any contradictory evidence into consideration.

We're arguing Baliners here, but I feel this scales well to anyone making
absolute statements, bashing any boat or person.

Bob Dimond

I saw your "great bayliner story", and Chuck Gould (as usual) made the
necessary post pointing out your all too typical, overly enthusiastic
newbie power boater, foolhardiness. Take a cab, bus, call a
friend/relative, ect, to get home next time.


I have no problem with Gould, Wally, or most people in this group. My
problem is with a few elitist who thrive on the "My boat is better than
your boat" mentality. I really don't care who you are or what type of
boat you own, this elitism goes against the grain of everthing I was
raised to cherish with respect to the civility and comaraderie of the
boating fraternity. In all my travels through the great lakes, and even
the Florida panhandle, it is, thankfully, a rarity to encounter this
mindset. Sadly it is all too prevelant in this group.

Gould made some very good points and was tactful about the points he
wanted to make. he wasn't responding to belittle a person or boat, or to
cite how great his brand of boat is, but to express his opinion and
legitimate concerns. I respect anyone who tactfully points out the
flaws in something using known facts and personal experience as he did,
instead of slinging left-handed or derrogatory remarks, by making casual
inferences that are of questionable relevance to their statement.

In my response to Gould's post I conceeded he was right. I noticed I had
said: "lack of experience" in the sixth paragraph in my story, when I
wanted to say was: "lack of experience pulling this vessel out of a tight
mooring". I further qualified my remarks, stating that I did have
sufficient rough water experience and equipment to minimize the risk and
make the venture a little less foolhardy than it seemed. I had
experience, on this specific route, how to minimize weather, take
advantage of the lees in the passage, as well as carry redundant safety
equipment (tranceiver, GPS, flares, day signal, portable air horn. cell
phone), in a watertight box in case the worst happened.

I don't think my response changed Gould's mind on what he thought of the
passage, and that's okay. Hopefully, it clarified that I was not some
newbie cowboy, going out yelling "Yee Haaa" without a thought of what
they were getting into or how to handle it when they hit it.

BTW - I never claimed to be the brightest bulb in the strand, but
suggesting to take a cab or a bus from an island??? If you had read the
posts in this thread, you would have known that was not an alternative, as
well the fact that I was not taking my boat out unprepared.


But since you bring it up, you've been powerboating since 1999, right?


Well, since you brought it up, you're wrong. I've been powerboating on
western Lake Erie since 1969. In boats ranging from a 15 foot bowrider
to a 40' Wheeler under power. I've been sailing since about 1993 in boats
from a 16' Cat boat to a 40' Trimarran. In thirty years plus of boating
at this location, while I haven't seen everything, I seen enough to
minimize my risks for chances I am willing to take. The majority of
fatialities in my area are from people who don't assume, plan, and are not
ready, for the bad conditions.


You had that 16'er for one whole "season", right?


Owned the 16' one season, docked in Sandusky for 1/2 a season. My
sailboat was up there previosly, so I didn't take it out on weekends until
the later half. Instead I putted around Cleveland, launching from Rocky
River, which I do not count as miles because it wasn't "on a trip" by my
definition.


You put an awe inspiring "250 miles" on it, right? (I've done half
that in one weekend)


125 miles in one weekend is a nice trip. I won't belittle it as you tried
to. What kind of boat was it on? The trip I described in the story you
supposedly read was the last leg home from a trip to Windsor Ontario, at
least a 130 miles round trip. Once again, if you had bothered to read,
instead of just scanning for things to criticiize, you would have saved
your smartass comment for another time. Also I've done almost three
times the 125 mile distance you cited in the weekend time you've
specified, just not in a 16' boat.

That would mean you've had your current boat for less than 3 years,
right?


Yeah I think I owned the Trophy for either 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 seasons. My
current boat is a 23' Chris-Craft, just in this year, is still in
shakedown until the '04 season. What's your point?


Why don't you come back when you get a little experience and let the
poundings you like to submit yourself to begin to take their toll on
your boat. Just because you were very fortunate one time doesn't prove
much either, Mr Logic, except for some exceedingly poor judgement on
your part.


Ouch. Okay, Scott. I'm back! And if you had been following this thread
you would have noted that I had a familiarity with rough seas on the
western end of Lake Erie long before I acquired the 16 foot cuddy. In my
childhood on my father's boats, as an adult boating with friends, and my
own sailboats, is where I've gained my experience in rough weather boat
handling in this region.

I've been out in three models of Bayliner, and numerous other boats from
Sea Ray, Four Winns, Jersey, Wheeler, Lyman, Richardson, Chris-Craft, etc,
all in conditions that ranged from wonderful to worst. My experiences
have formed the opinion that, foot per foot, a Bayliner can handle these
seas as well as any other boat I've been on. I'm sorry but basing an
opinion on the viability of Bayliners based on actual personal experience
is a damn sight better logic, than pulling a statement out of your ass
about how many Bayliners are used for charter on 500 miles miles of
coastline, or counting the pictures of Bayliners on a fishing web site.

I've done what you asked, returning when I had the experience, why don't
you reciprocate the same courtesy and come back when you can read a
complete thread, and offer substancial information to debate posts.


Better yet go to www.boatnerd.com and look for information on Lake Erie.

I am well aware of the Great Lakes.


Good. Assuming that your awarness comes from personal experience and not
a web site, I hope you enjoyed them as much as I have in the last
thirty-four years.

This means that not all Bayliners can be dismissed as crap, and people who
feel the need to single out and dismiss all Bayliners, are behaving in
an ignorant manner.

I never said they were "crap".

Your right, Scott. You never said that "baylinesr were crap". But if you:

Start tossing out snobby left-handed remarks, pooh poohing, a brand name
that people own and take pride in owning, as if the boat and their owners
are beneath you.

Cite vague reference of questionable relevance, passing it off as fact,
then, when someone calls you on it, try to change the argument by pointing
out some insignificant detail, or hide behind your words, because you
didn't actually "say it", only implied it.

Then Scott, your not someone who wants to teach those with less experience
and learn from those with more experiece. You're not echoing the very
core of the boating fraternity, that I believe rec.boats was created to
emulate. Instead your an ignorant elitist, who is more concerned with
flinging your crap with no more thought than a monkey at the zoo.

Like anything else in life, Scott, you choose how to behave. Don't
dismiss or imply someone elses boating choices as beneath you standards,
and expect a warn reception.