Oh? Have you? I thought as much.


In article , Harry Krause
wrote:

Bob D. wrote:

I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any boat of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.




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Bob D. wrote:
Oh? Have you? I thought as much.


In article , Harry Krause
wrote:

Bob D. wrote:

I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any boat of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.



I've been "offshore" in a few Bayliner Trophies. Never again. I also
went a mile offshore in the Atlantic out a fairly rough inlet in a
Bayliner 55' motor yacht. What a piece of crap that was...it couldn't
keep up with boats 20' shorter.

In which ocean do you boat, Bob?



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This is long, but sumitted for two reasons:

1) I do like telling the story, and hope you find it entertaining

2) To dispute Harry's "facts" that all Bayliners are crappy an cannot
possibly take weather.

My first powerboat was a 16 foot bayliner Capri Cuddy with an 85HP Force
Outboard. In the one season I owned her, I put close to 250 miles on it,
in Lake Erie, in everything from dead calm to 6-8 foot waves.

The best example of the later, occurred on Labor Day of 1999, the day
before (sunday) on our way back from a trip to Windsor, and Wyandote, we
stopped off at South Bass Island for a little extra party time. The
Dimond brothers proceeded to terrorize the small village of Put-in-Bay
(PIB) in our usual was by drinking lots, laughing loud, and making
friends.

That night I was asleep outside the cabin on the jump seat because of the
unbearable humidity without any breeze. At around 4am I awoke to use the
head and found the most comfortable gentle breeze, with a humidity that
dropped instantly. It was then I suspected a nor'easter was going to
hit. I crawled in the cabin for a few more hours sleep and awoke to a
very stiff blow by 9:00am.

At 9:00am I awoke to stumble to the bathroom (again). At that time I
found our PIB Dockmaster, Keith, posting the NWS 8:00am forecast. Not
Good. I then tuned to VHF to get the latest forecast, which posted a
strong, persistent NNE wind with the current wave heights from the SBI
bouy at 5 to 7 feet, with wave heights ranging from 8 to 10 feet in the
afternoon.

Knowing it would only get worse, not wanting to miss to my Girlfriends
BBQ, and needing to get to work on Tuesday, I frantically woke by
Brother, Rich. I told him to get his ass in gear, we have to leave before
the heavy stuff hits. Richard, having certain southern qualities and
probably hung over, meandered to the bathroom at a pace much slower than I
had hoped.

By 10am we were donned with Live vests and leaving the dock in a light
rain. Because of my lack of experience, I opted to have the top down
while leaving the dock, due to the added windage. The people who saw us
off looked at my bother with sympathy when I refused their courteous offer
to stay. We shoved off from Miller's and headed east towards the PIB
municipal docks.

To paraphrase George Costanza: The Bay was angry my friend, like an old
man trying to send back soup in a deli. As we were heading out of the
bay, we were hitting 3-4 foot waves IN THE BAY. In order to stay dry my
brother tried to put the top up, but then I couldnt see. I unzipped the
center and peered out through the hole. Unfortunately the wind was so
strong that the hole allowed the wind to pull the top off of the remaining
snaps when we started to power up. So here I am trying to drive the boat
in ever increasing wind, waves, and rain, screaming at my brother to move
his ass and get the F*cking top stowed away.

A few moments after he gets the top stowed he comes back next to me. I
turned to him and in that moment BAM! My face hit the windshield frame.
(Note to Harry, the Windshield did not break) I could taste the blood
comming out of my mouth. I then turned to my brother, smiled, and in my
best Carl from Caddyshak impersonation said "I think we should press on...
I don't think the heavy stuff comming for quite some time". With that
we laughed like hyena and pressed on.

We hit the second worst port of our journey about 3/4 of a mile past the
green SBI marker. It was there the boat stalled. Out of gas. I asked
my brother to switch the tanks. Not smart. Once again I watched my
brother in his laid back fashion fumbling to switch the tank, a job that I
learned to do in about three seconds. I turned my attention toward the
lake, where I watched helplessly as an eight foot wall of water was
approaching our stern. If this wave breaks the boat will probably sink
is all I could think about. I then yelled at my brother to hurry the
F*CK up! The wave passed beneath us (it didn't break) and our engine
strarted up on its fresh tank. We then headed toward the South south
west where the ride would be in the lee side of South Bass while taking
the weather further abeam. All the while reciting the mantra of Carl from
Caddyshak.

As we cruised we saw only three boats. One appeared to be a 25 foot Lyman
or Skiff-Craft as it was clearly a lapstrake inboard. The other two were
sedans in the 30 to 35 foot range. We started behind them headed a
little more SSW to diminish the weather, then back tracked SE to a point
SW of the SW kelly shore, where we were still taking the waves further
abeam and and passed them all. More than ever my brother and I were all
smiles and laughter, though I can't honesty say why. I probably had a
concussion, I don't know what his excuse was. As we headed further SE,
towards the inlet I thought clearly the worst was over as kellys should
help harbor us into Sandusky Bay. Clearly my inexperience would prove me
wrong.

As we made the Sandusky Bay inlet the water was being funneled between
Kelly's Island, Marblehead point and the Ceder Point breakwall. What a
mess. The wave action was all over, with the majority of action heading
form out of due north to give us following seas. There was a channel
which cut from the western shore of the Sandusky inlet to the Nothern
shore of Sandusky Bay's protected waters. I had only a vague notion of
where it was, but on this day, I was determined to find it.

As we headed south west to hug the shore we managed to find the red marker
marking the channel. We darted for it and found ourself in the flat
protected water of the channel. The channel lead us to the flat protected
water of Sandusky bays North shore, about two miles due north of my home
port the Dock of the Bay Marina. We arrived at the dock at about
11:15am, soaked to the bone, desperately needing the restroom, but in
great spirits.

As we exited the restroom to head back to the boat, a woman in her mid
fifties approached me. "Oh my god! You didn't take your boat back last
night did you?" She said with surprise. Looking like Dan Quayle after
being asked to spell Potato I said "huh? Uh.. No.?" She noted the lack
or recognition and said: "Don't you remember? You guys saw my Dock of the
Bay shirt and were hanging around with my husband and I last night at
Tippers? We were taking the (Island) Rocket back and you guys said you
were staying on your boat. You guys were so drunk, I just assumed you
weren't taking your boat back last night!" "We didn't." I repeated.
"Oh.. did you leave your boat up there, and ferry back?" I replied: "No,
we came back today." "Well you guys are brave, considering the weather
out there. Our friends had to leave their 35 footer at the bay, and took
the rocket back. So where's your boat?" I pointed to the southeast slip
of the outside pier, nearest the parking lot. "Right there." She
gasped: "Don't tell me you came back in that boat!", pointing the new 28
foot Formula that was in line of sight. "No." I lead her a little
further towards the pier where the Tiny 16 foot cuddy started to peer out
from behind the Formula "That one." She gasped and "Oh my God! Are you
crazy?" Rich and I reassured here that while it wasn't a leisurely
cruise, it was not that bad. I really don't think we had her convinced
though.

I called Michelle and told here we were going to make her BBQ. When we
arrived whe told her and her family the story of our weekend in Windsor
and the, coup de gras, our trip back from Put-in-Bay. A week later
Michelle informed me that friends of her family, beached their 54 foot
Carver in the bay by Perry's Monument due to the wind conditions that
day. Said Carver was complete with twin engines (of course) and a bow
thruster.

We told my dad about our story. He looked at me laughed and said: "You're
an idiot." Looked at my brother, smiled, and said: "You're an idiot for
going with him!" I said: "We had a GPS two VHF radios, a cell phone,
life jackets on, and were in familiar waters in bad weather Besides,
before Richard was born, we had been out in the similar conditions on a
smaller boat!". No further comment was made, except "Well... okay. Just
be careful."


Bob Dimond

Boat brand aside,

Your choice to put out in the conditions you describe "so you didn't miss your
girlfriend's BBQ" is nothing short of astonishing.

This is an interesting tale only because you survived to tell it. Had you not,
your loss could hardly be blamed on the boat builder.

You describe taking a 16-foot boat into 8- foot seas on the verge of breaking.
That's not a cruise, it's a stunt. And not a very bright one.

"I watched helplessly as an eight foot wall of water was approaching our stern.
If this wave breaks the boat will probably sink."

If you get pooped by a breaking 8-footer in a 16-foot runabout built by
anybody, death is more likely than survival.


The specific problem with telling tales of this nature is that some poor
schmuck with a 16-foot Bayliner is going to voluntarily venture out in 8-foot
seas and think it's a fine, safe, smart thing to do because he read pn the
internet someplace that "guys do it all the time". :-(

Your point is well taken, especially for anyone copy cating my actions.

As for my safety, depending on the winds, I routinely go out in 3-5 on
Lake Erie. Hell you rarely have a choice! And if I'm away from home
port will routinely brave 4-6's to get back.

Eries 6-8's I would take now if I had to, but I'm not a bold as I use to
be. I did it then. I had experience with the water, and was prepared for
it. I was none the worse for wear for doing it, and did not feel that
endangered while doing it. Would I do it now in a 16 foot boat now?
Hmmmm..... *leaning* towards no on that one.

My upbringing taught me to respect and prepare for the rough water but not
necessarily fear it. In the instance you cited, you right my boat could
have just as easily sunk. But that contingency was and IS to this day
planned for. Watertight boxes with portable GPS, Flares, Portable VHF,
and visual marker are at my feet in any adverse weather. Life jackets on
not withing arms reach, but on. If its practical, an EPIRB is next on my
list.

I was not a stranger to boat handling even in rough weather. At ten
years I stood outside the cabin, on deck in 10-12 foot Huron swells, with
instructions that if the Jerseys gunn'ls touch the water to jump off. I
was not scared I had instructions and they would have been followed. I
knew my life depended upon it. I've gotten stuck in 6 foot seas while I
was traveling from Lorain to Huron (about 20 miles), in a 16 foot
Catboat. I was scared.

I was taught, and later relearned, that fear, in moderation, is good thing
to keep you out of harms way, but bad if you're already in it.

For as much boating as I try to do, the length of trips I like to take, I
think while it was not the most prudent, it was good for me. I can not
speak for our east and west coastal waters, but on the north coast there
is no such thing as only going out in good weather when your traveling any
distance or overnighting.

Please don't get the impression that I go off haphazzardly going
yeeehaaa. I prepare and try to minimize or mitigate every rick I
encounter in waters that are well know to me. I've been brought up that
way.

Still, thanks again for putting my story in a fresh and better
perspective. I do hope others will take your comments to heart as well!


In article ,
(Gould 0738) wrote:

Boat brand aside,

Your choice to put out in the conditions you describe "so you didn't miss your
girlfriend's BBQ" is nothing short of astonishing.

This is an interesting tale only because you survived to tell it. Had you not,
your loss could hardly be blamed on the boat builder.

You describe taking a 16-foot boat into 8- foot seas on the verge of breaking.
That's not a cruise, it's a stunt. And not a very bright one.

"I watched helplessly as an eight foot wall of water was approaching our
stern.
If this wave breaks the boat will probably sink."

If you get pooped by a breaking 8-footer in a 16-foot runabout built by
anybody, death is more likely than survival.


The specific problem with telling tales of this nature is that some poor
schmuck with a 16-foot Bayliner is going to voluntarily venture out in 8-foot
seas and think it's a fine, safe, smart thing to do because he read pn the
internet someplace that "guys do it all the time". :-(

Bob D. wrote:
This is long, but sumitted for two reasons:

1) I do like telling the story, and hope you find it entertaining

2) To dispute Harry's "facts" that all Bayliners are crappy an cannot
possibly take weather.

My first powerboat was a 16 foot bayliner Capri Cuddy with an 85HP Force
Outboard. In the one season I owned her, I put close to 250 miles on it,
in Lake Erie, in everything from dead calm to 6-8 foot waves.

You measure your boat usage in miles? And in one season you put on 250
miles? Wow. You're some experienced boater, especially when you were
taking on those six to eight foot waves in your 16' Bayliner.

A few weeks ago, I put 250+ miles on one of my boats over a three day
weekend. But I didn't encounter any eight-footers. I check the weather
before I head out, and if eight-footers are predicted, I find something
else to do that day.

Maybe it is because I have no desire to win a Darwin Award.



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Harry,
If I didn't go out when the forecast was for 6-8 foot seas, I would
probably be restricted to about 10 days a year that I could cross the
gulf stream
Kelton
s/v Isle Escape

Harry Krause wrote:
snip

A few weeks ago, I put 250+ miles on one of my boats over a three day
weekend. But I didn't encounter any eight-footers. I check the weather
before I head out, and if eight-footers are predicted, I find something
else to do that day.

Maybe it is because I have no desire to win a Darwin Award.

A few weeks ago, I put 250+ miles on one of my boats over a three day
weekend. But I didn't encounter any eight-footers. I check the weather
before I head out, and if eight-footers are predicted, I find something
else to do that day.


Interesting. You put 250+ miles in a three day weekend. Something *I
also Have done* , Just not on a sixteen foot boat.

Harry what difference does it make whether I use miles, nautical miles
or hours? If your such a purist why did you use the term?

I use the term miles because it better implies experience. Anyone could
put 500 hours on an engine trolling, that would far exceed my time on
the boat, but not necessarily my experience. I have no problem standing
by my terminology, and no problem in considering your need to dismiss my
terminology as stupid arrogance.

Going out in eight footers is NOT my first choice for boating, but if
family and work comittments call, and I'm already away from homeport, it
may be considered.

But as I've seen in other posts, you've ignored the point. Choosing
instead to pick apart inconsequencial points of my argument.


Maybe it is because I have no desire to win a Darwin Award.


We only regret that your ancestors didn't feel the same way...

BOB wrote:


A few weeks ago, I put 250+ miles on one of my boats over a three day
weekend. But I didn't encounter any eight-footers. I check the weather
before I head out, and if eight-footers are predicted, I find something
else to do that day.


Interesting. You put 250+ miles in a three day weekend. Something *I
also Have done* , Just not on a sixteen foot boat.

Harry what difference does it make whether I use miles, nautical miles
or hours? If your such a purist why did you use the term?

It makes no difference to me. It just makes you look silly.




I use the term miles because it better implies experience. Anyone could
put 500 hours on an engine trolling, that would far exceed my time on
the boat, but not necessarily my experience.

Really? Miles equals experience? Not necessarily.



I have no problem standing
by my terminology, and no problem in considering your need to dismiss my
terminology as stupid arrogance.

I don't believe your terminology is stupid arrogance. More like stupid
ignorance.



Going out in eight footers is NOT my first choice for boating, but if
family and work comittments call, and I'm already away from homeport, it
may be considered.

As I stated, stupid ignorance. Unless you have to do so, going out in a
small boat on the Great Lakes while eight foot waves are about is stupid
ignorance. It puts you at great risk. And it also puts at great risk
those who might have to go out after you. It's dumb. We're not talking
eight-foot ocean swells here.


Maybe it is because I have no desire to win a Darwin Award.


We only regret that your ancestors didn't feel the same way...


No, they didn't. And they passed along genes to me that make me bright
enough to not want to earn one, either.

Perhaps you feel more comfortable with the Forrest Gump Award: Stupid is
as stupid does.


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In article , Harry Krause
wrote:

Bob D. wrote:
Oh? Have you? I thought as much.


In article , Harry Krause
wrote:

Bob D. wrote:

I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any
boat of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.



I've been "offshore" in a few Bayliner Trophies. Never again. I also
went a mile offshore in the Atlantic out a fairly rough inlet in a
Bayliner 55' motor yacht. What a piece of crap that was...it couldn't
keep up with boats 20' shorter.

Interesting. Were you out demoing that 55 footer, or was it someone
personal boat? If it belonged to someone, did you have the rudeness, and
conviction of opinion, to tell that captain to his face that his boat was
crap? You never answered that original question in you more general
statements, so I am still curious, if the situation presents itself, and
you see somone you don't know, in a bayliner would you (anyone who
dislikes bayliners) call their boat a piece of crap to their face? If
not, why do you (and others) persist in doing it here?

Well at least now your qualifying your so called "facts". I'm not sure
why not keeping up with a smaller boat makes any boat crap, but trust me,
I'll use that later on.

I'll also admit I was wrong, in assuming you have no experience with
Bayliners. Your personal experiences with Bayliner boats were ALL bad.
So now you think Bayliners are crap, that's quite understandable, given
the information you've provided, and if that were the only information you
had available to you, I can see why you present it as fact.

But.... Here's some anectdotal evidence of my own...

In the 2 1/2 seasons I've owned my second hand 17 year old Bayliner I've
logged over 1,000 miles. My trips ranged from 20 to 300 miles in weather
ranging from dead calm to 4-6 foot waves (according to the NWS bulletin
and buoy data). Other than having the Volvo outdrive rebuilt, and a
broken bimini cap, I've had no problems.

Previous to that, I owned a little Bayliner 16 foot cuddy. In the one
season I owned her, I put close to 250 miles on it. Once again this
vessel has been out in everything from dead calm to 6-8 foot waves.
Should you read my other post "A Bayliner Story... ", by your logic of a
smaller boat traveling rough seas faster, proves a larger vessels
inferiority, then my crappy bayliner is better than a 25ft
Lyman/Skiff-Craft, or a 30-35 foot Sedans.

In the 17 years my friend has owned his Bayliner Ciera 2155 it would be a
safe bet that her captain "Thiry Second Pete" (named that because he was
only at his dock for thirty seconds before heading out) has piloted his
"crap" vessel well over 4300 miles. This is a very conservative
estimate. This boat has ferried us from the Port of Lorain to South Bass
island countless times in conditions ranging from still (rarely) up to
8-10 foot seas. I will freely admit the weekend we went out into 8-10's
we put in halfway (about 20 miles) at the Port of Hurom where it continued
to blow out of the North until the following Tuesday forcing us to hitch a
ride back to Pete's marina. Except for mechanical wear and tear, and the
cockpit interior being shot because he never kept his boat covered, the
boat is in fully operational condition. If you knew Pete, you would know
that his "crap Bayliner" did not survive becuase of his dilligent care and
upkeep.

I could cite more anectdotes but I think I've clearly made my point. So
what's my point? The point is that ALL my positive experiences have just
as much weight and bering in reality as all of Harry's negative
experiences, whether you like it or not. AND just as I can't dispute
what Harry's witnessed, Harry cannot dispute what I've witnessed.

And yet inspite of an experience base on Bayliners, that may equal or
surpass your own, I cannot categorically state that Bayliners are worse,
as good, or better than any other boat manufacturer out there. Why?
Because realistically I have not been on every Bayliner, and I have not
been every other boat from every other manufacturer that Bayliners would
compare to, in fact, no one has. Because of this fact, I can never refute
any statement that says "My friends Bayliner is crap". And can only
refute a statement citing "This model of Bayliner is crap" if I have had
experience with that model.

What I can state is "NOT ALL BAYLINERS ARE CRAP", because my personal
experiences have proven that to be true. That statement is not an
inference, it is a truism, something that you cannot dispute without
having absolute experience and expertise on the subject. Harry, and
others who see fit to lump Bayliners into one simple category, when you've
been on every boat of every Bayliner model then you will have the
experience and knowledge to concur with me or dispute me. Until then
you're pretty much just ****ing up a rope, aren't you?

I can't stop you from passing off your opinion as fact, as you've repeated
done in the past. But IMHO it is a narrow-minded, individual who forms an
opinion on a limited ammount of data to make inferences on the
characterisitcs of an entire population, while passing these flawed
inferences off as absolute truths, despite evidence to the contrary. As
for why someone who refuses to acknowledge evidence contray to their
opinion, and modify their opinion, my only guess is their either too
prideful, lazy, or too stupid to adapt in light of new information.

While I have to respect your opinion on Bayliners and understand why you
don't like them, I have no repect for you or anyone who makes claims that
ALL Bayliners are "crap", bashing them at every opportunity as if your
experience equals some undisputed truth.



In which ocean do you boat, Bob?


In answer to you question, I boat on the Great Lakes, Harry. My home port
is out of Ohio, on the south shore of Lake Erie. While I'll freely admit
it's not an ocean, I'd love to see you try to bash or dismiss my boating
environment as limited in challenge or "flat water".

Been out in the Florida Gulf as well, Loved the sailing, hated the
dampness everywhere when the sun set. Might still go back though if I buy
another sailboat.

I


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