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Self rescure idea
I'm a pretty big guy and I worry about needing to do a solo deep water remount.
Even though I have a fairly wide boat, (Loon 160 now, earlier a Coleman Scanoe and Folbot Super), Any unassisted attempt to remount has always flipped my boat. (I pracitced in my swimming pool this Summer). The only thing that worked fairly well was to tie off a cheap, half inflated swim ring and use it as a step up. It worked, but it was ungarceful and I don't know how well it would work in waves. Now that my pool is too cold to experiment in, I think I have an improvement on the idea and would like some feedback. What if you took a long adjustable strap and tied one end to a swim ring? The other end would go under the boat and then over the cockpit and be lashed to some point inside the boat. Another strap and ring would be rigged from the other side. Now, all you would need would be a foot stirup on the side you wanted to mount from and in you'd go before the boat flipped. I'm not sure this would work, but it would be cheap and would provide a stable Summer swimming platform. Has anyone tried this before? Tom, Tucson |
Self rescure idea
That sounds similar to, but more complicated than, a modification of the paddle float self-rescue that uses a strap with a loop on it. Not sure if the loop is attached to the paddle or the boat itself somehow...I never used it myself. -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
Self rescure idea
I too am a large person and worried about an open water re-entry. I'm very
interested in your experience. 1. Can you provide a better description of what you call a "swim ring"? Can you point to a picture of one on the web somewhere? 2. I don't understand your description of the setup (the second one described). Can you elaborate? Thanks! "TWall10618" wrote in message ... I'm a pretty big guy and I worry about needing to do a solo deep water remount. Even though I have a fairly wide boat, (Loon 160 now, earlier a Coleman Scanoe and Folbot Super), Any unassisted attempt to remount has always flipped my boat. (I pracitced in my swimming pool this Summer). The only thing that worked fairly well was to tie off a cheap, half inflated swim ring and use it as a step up. It worked, but it was ungarceful and I don't know how well it would work in waves. Now that my pool is too cold to experiment in, I think I have an improvement on the idea and would like some feedback. What if you took a long adjustable strap and tied one end to a swim ring? The other end would go under the boat and then over the cockpit and be lashed to some point inside the boat. Another strap and ring would be rigged from the other side. Now, all you would need would be a foot stirup on the side you wanted to mount from and in you'd go before the boat flipped. I'm not sure this would work, but it would be cheap and would provide a stable Summer swimming platform. Has anyone tried this before? Tom, Tucson |
Self rescure idea
If you are in whitewater, I would be wary of any plan that relied on
unleashing straps long enough to present an entanglement problem. In flat water (if I understand your idea correctly) the entanglement risk would be less of a concern. Whether it actually would work is a matter of the actual mechanics of your lash-up. You probably will have to wait until you can actually try it. For what it's worth. Rich Phillips |
Self rescure idea
Try using a paddle float with a stirrup setup. Most sea kayaking
books will cover this type of re-entry. Pete TWall10618 wrote: I'm a pretty big guy and I worry about needing to do a solo deep water remount. Even though I have a fairly wide boat, (Loon 160 now, earlier a Coleman Scanoe and Folbot Super), Any unassisted attempt to remount has always flipped my boat. (I pracitced in my swimming pool this Summer). The only thing that worked fairly well was to tie off a cheap, half inflated swim ring and use it as a step up. It worked, but it was ungarceful and I don't know how well it would work in waves. |
Self rescure idea
Ken wrote:
I too am a large person and worried about an open water re-entry. I'm very interested in your experience. I assume that by "large", you mean that you have a lot of body fat. Assuming that's the case, you need to use the buoyancy that it creates to your advantage. The biggest problem I see when people are having trouble with self rescues is that they try to come straight out of the water vertically, which simply doesn't work. The heavier you are, the more weight you have to try to lift and the more difficult it is to haul yourself up. Stirrups and similar gimmicks encourage this poor technique. They're also a great way to break a paddle and create an entanglement hazard. The key to self rescue is to float yourself to the surface face down (lying in the water on your belly) with your legs on the surface, then slide yourself up and across the aft deck of your boat. Perhaps a better way to look at it is that you're pushing the boat down and pulling it under you. This uses your natural buoyancy to keep you on the surface and your weight to push the boat down. A boat with a low aft deck really helps, though most boats sized for larger people tend to have high decks, which compounds the problems of re-entry. One thing that can help with a high decked boat is to flood the cockpit to get the boat lower in the water. I'm not fond of this technique, since it requires more pumping out afterward, but it's preferable to not being able to re-enter the boat. -- Regards Brian |
Self rescure idea
Peter Kuhn wrote in message ...
Try using a paddle float with a stirrup setup. Most sea kayaking books will cover this type of re-entry. Pete TWall10618 wrote: I'm a pretty big guy and I worry about needing to do a solo deep water remount. Even though I have a fairly wide boat, (Loon 160 now, earlier a Coleman Scanoe and Folbot Super), Any unassisted attempt to remount has always flipped my boat. (I pracitced in my swimming pool this Summer). The only thing that worked fairly well was to tie off a cheap, half inflated swim ring and use it as a step up. It worked, but it was ungarceful and I don't know how well it would work in waves. If you are trying this solo in a closed kayak you might try getting lessons , Some kind of co operative thing in your local kayak club may help. On first read I thought it was an open scanoe (Coleman ) type thing and as my wife is much more skilled there I was not going at that . Re entry in an open canoe is tricky, hard and painfull , it results in bruises for the over 20 crowd. If you must use a stirrup to re enter a kayak you should not be out alone. That is the rude truth. A standard paddle float re entry is a good option and sponsons may help in your circomstance. There are people spitting now but these things have a place. They are floats that strap to your boat after an upset, you inflate them and now you have some extra width and boyancy to the boat.A boat with the cockpit full of water will be instable and hard to pump out. You will be pumping about 40 gallons of water out of an unstable boat that you just fell out of for some reason. That can't be good. I have a bunch of rescues at my disposal. I have a good roll, paddle float re entry is doable , It remains ugly and akward. Re Entry Roll, and re entry roll with paddle float. I can sometimes get onto the back deck and re enter without an aid. I have no illusions. when alone if something takes me out of my boat, the roll fails and conditions have deteriorated to the point that my boat is not around my waist I am in trouble. That is compounded by the fact that our water is very cold. The advice is Be Carefull!! Find an instructor, a good one and ask. Local clubs like ours pull of rescue clinics the odd time. Cheap but priceless. Good paddling Alex McGruer |
Self rescure idea
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Self rescure idea
"Michael Daly" wrote in message . cable.rogers.com...
On 19-Oct-2003, (Alex McGruer) wrote: If you must use a stirrup to re enter a kayak you should not be out alone. That is the rude truth. I'd agree with that. In fact, they might consider another sport. A standard paddle float re entry is a good option and sponsons may help in your circomstance. The problem with both these methods is that neither addresses the problem of needing a stirrup. Both provide extra stability, but the issue is that he can't get up onto the deck. ISTR that someone already suggested learning to float on the surface and slide onto the deck. If someone can't do this and needs a stirrup, then they are in a more difficult situation. Personally, I consider the stirrup a poor solution except in the case of an injured paddler (i.e. it's a temporary solution to a problem, not a standard one) or a disabled paddler who paddles under specific conditions (e.g. with companions who are accustomed to aiding them with the stirrup). Otherwise, if someone can't get onto the kayak without a stirrup they are liability to themselves and to others. Need for a stirrup indicates a greater problem with skill or fitness. Either learn to do it by floating or realize that a kayak isn't for you. Find an instructor, a good one and ask. Local clubs like ours pull of rescue clinics the odd time. Cheap but priceless. This is the best idea. This will either identify the issues that lead the OP to want a stirrup and get rid of them or make the paddler realize that they shouldn't be paddling. Mike Hi Mike: I am the fool that will put anyone I can fit in the cockpit of a boat out on the water. Once I am comfortable i can get them back into the boat we may hit salt water. You are absolutely right in all your observations. I know one lady that dropper over 100 Lbs just to get in a kayak and paddle: The benefit of that far outweighed the risks of pond paddling and a scoot into the inland protected areas we can find in most places . I hate like hell sending people back to the bowling allys or bingo halls. I have used a stirrup affair in getting one person back into the boat. The stirrup is stowed all the time in my paddle float. I have the odd experience that is trully funny. Folks stradling the back deck, crawling up and sinking the cockpit then we pump like mad. CRCA has a sticker, Kayaking and Canoeing is for everyone. OK that is a bit too optemistic but why not try. If a person has not at least 2 good practiced solo re entries under their belt , solo paddling or paddling without some type of guide may not be too wise,. I still think this may be for an open Canadian type canoe. If that is the case the job just became close to impossible Chow Alex But You are right Mike...realy. |
Self rescure idea
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Self rescure idea
"Michael Daly" writes:
On 22-Oct-2003, (Alex McGruer) wrote: CRCA has a sticker, Kayaking and Canoeing is for everyone. OK that is a bit too optemistic but why not try. I don't have a problem with people wanting to try, but everyone has to realize that there are limits to their abilities and at some point it becomes more of a risk than a hobby. I don't like saying what I did, and I've taken flack for it in the past. Well, there's also a difference between how fit/skilled/whatever you need to be to kayak, and how fit/skilled/whatever you need to be to kayak solo. I don't think needing a stirrup should keep someone out of kayaking as such, but if you do, you should recognize that your limited ability to self-rescue creates some additional risk for you, and (if you are sensible) restricts where you can paddle, and when, and with whom. [snip] I don't know why folks take the attitude that everyone has some kind of right to paddle regardless of physical ability or condition. For example, in scuba diving, you aren't guaranteed a license - you can flunk a course and be denied (except by unscrupulous operators). And in kayaking, you don't NEED a license...so, yes, everybody DOES have "some kind of right to paddle". A license is a legal requirement that may or may not exist for a particular sport; it's not some kind of Get Out Of Jail Free card that divine providence issues you that guarantees you'll never get a smackdown. [snip] I'd rather send them away than see them in a body bag. Appropriate, but in any given situation, you may have a lot more choices than just those two. -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
Self rescure idea
On 22-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:
A license is a legal requirement that may or may not exist for a particular sport; A scuba license has no legal status. It is a feature that is maintained on a voluntary basis by participants (including retailers) in the sport. You can dive without a license if you can find someone who will lend/rent you the kit. No one can prosecute you. it's not some kind of Get Out Of Jail Free card that divine providence issues you that guarantees you'll never get a smackdown. No, but in scuba, at least it's a sign that there are folks that have the guts to say that not everyone is entitled to instant gratification just because they think something's cool. If enough idiots put themselves at risk, it'll attract the attention of the politicians and they'll lean on all of us. If idiots put _me_ at risk, it interferes with my pursuit of life, liberty and happiness (as Americans would put it) and I greatly object to that. Mike |
Self rescure idea
"Michael Daly" writes:
On 22-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote: A license is a legal requirement that may or may not exist for a particular sport; A scuba license has no legal status. It is a feature that is maintained on a voluntary basis by participants (including retailers) in the sport. You can dive without a license if you can find someone who will lend/rent you the kit. No one can prosecute you. There you go! You got a divine right to scuba. it's not some kind of Get Out Of Jail Free card that divine providence issues you that guarantees you'll never get a smackdown. No, but in scuba, at least it's a sign that there are folks that have the guts to say that not everyone is entitled to instant gratification just because they think something's cool. And it's all about guts, hmmmm? And nobody does anything like this in kayaking? My local whitewataer outfitter won't rent a boat to anyone except if they sign a pretty long form in which they have to specifically initial statements that they have various skills. Somehow, I don't think this is atypical. I doubt you'll find a whitewater outfitter who'll rent a hardshell boat to anyone with a wallet and a pulse who walks through the door. If enough idiots put themselves at risk, it'll attract the attention of the politicians and they'll lean on all of us. I've heard this assertion many times, but not once yet heard a convincing argument to support it...merely emotional rants about lawyers and litigious society and so on. Show me a reasonably parallel situation where similar events have caused "the politicians" to "lean on" participants as a whole -- presuably with the effect of restricting their activity -- and I will perhaps be somewhat more inclined to believe that someone dying because he can't do a self-rescue is going to mean the end of kayaking as we know it. Meanwhile, here in Massachusetts, two women died kayaking within the last couple of weeks, in what was quite likely a case of insufficient preparation and/or skills and/or judgment. I have yet to hear of any talk from any politicians anywhere who are deploring the inherent dangers of kayaking and seeking to save paddlers from themselves, and somehow I don't think it's gonna happen. -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
Self rescure idea
On 23-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:
There you go! You got a divine right to scuba. Hardly. You'd have a hard time finding a dealer that would sell you air without a license unless you're in a tourist haven offshore (Cuba's a good example). The key is that it's a standard that's enforced within the industry - there's no equivalent in paddling. My local whitewataer outfitter won't rent a boat to anyone except if they sign a pretty long form in which they have to specifically initial statements that they have various skills. Does a retailer similarly not sell a kayak to anyone who walks in the door? Sorry, but this is where it breaks down. While some may be reluctant to rent, there are lots of places to buy gear without restriction. I've heard this assertion many times, but not once yet heard a convincing argument to support it After several teenagers were killed in an avalanche in the Canadian Rockies, a western federal politician has been ranting on setting up controls for backcountry skiing. So far, her hysterics have been largely ignored. Skiers aren't ignoring her yet. If she wasn't in a minor opposition party, her voice in government might carry further. Sea kayakers in Canada are required, by law, to carry a throw rope at all times. Most of us, even those with WW rescue training, question the need. Other than towing, I can think of very few uses for a throw rope in a sea kayak. A tow rope, maybe, but a throw rope makes a mediocre tow rope. Someone thought it would be a good idea and imposed it. Meanwhile, here in Massachusetts, two women died kayaking within the last couple of weeks, in what was quite likely a case of insufficient preparation and/or skills and/or judgment. Must have got that gear from one of those responsible dealers with lots of guts. Mike |
Self rescure idea
Mary Malmros wrote: Show me a reasonably parallel situation where similar events have caused "the politicians" to "lean on" participants as a whole -- presuably with the effect of restricting their activity -- and I will perhaps be somewhat more inclined to believe that someone dying because he can't do a self-rescue is going to mean the end of kayaking as we know it. How soon they forget... It was only a few months ago that paddlers in CT fought off an attempt at registration w/mandatory training that was being (thinly) disguised as a safety measure. It would have severely curtailed retail sales and rentals. Maine had a similar proposal that was beaten down by an email campaign. Politicians are chomping at the bit to get their hands into our wallets and "safety" is one issue that the general public will bite on, if there's any significant justification to it. Fortunately, paddler deaths are few, but it would only take one unusually bad year and we'd probably not be able to stem the legislative tide. We are a tiny minority and we're certainly vulnerable to the voting public forcing regulation on us "for our own good." -- Regards Brian |
Self rescure idea
"Michael Daly" writes:
On 23-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote: There you go! You got a divine right to scuba. Hardly. You'd have a hard time finding a dealer that would sell you air without a license unless you're in a tourist haven offshore (Cuba's a good example). The key is that it's a standard that's enforced within the industry - there's no equivalent in paddling. Michael, I will point out for the third time that an industry practice by consensus does NOT equal a law. You DO have the legal right to scuba. Do you want to start talking about moral rights? Theology debate down the hall, please. My local whitewataer outfitter won't rent a boat to anyone except if they sign a pretty long form in which they have to specifically initial statements that they have various skills. Does a retailer similarly not sell a kayak to anyone who walks in the door? Sorry, but this is where it breaks down. While some may be reluctant to rent, there are lots of places to buy gear without restriction. Do you think that it's impossible to buy scuba gear off the net? Would someone check my license if I tried to do so, and tell me I couldn't buy without it? I've heard this assertion many times, but not once yet heard a convincing argument to support it After several teenagers were killed in an avalanche in the Canadian Rockies, a western federal politician has been ranting on setting up controls for backcountry skiing. So far, her hysterics have been largely ignored. Skiers aren't ignoring her yet. Still no convincing argument. You are talking about a questioning of outfitter practices related to backcountry skiing in avalanche-prone territory, not governmental restrictions prohibiting kayakers from taking to the water for their own good. There's no slippery slope here, even if this particular one were sliding, which it ain't. If she wasn't in a minor opposition party, her voice in government might carry further. And if the little frog had wings, he wouldn't have bumped his ass. Do you think that perhaps there's a relationship between her membership in a minor opposition party, and her championing of this "cause"? Think about it. Sea kayakers in Canada are required, by law, to carry a throw rope at all times. Most of us, even those with WW rescue training, question the need. Other than towing, I can think of very few uses for a throw rope in a sea kayak. A tow rope, maybe, but a throw rope makes a mediocre tow rope. Someone thought it would be a good idea and imposed it. And kayakers blow it off, and no one gets busted. Meanwhile, here in Massachusetts, two women died kayaking within the last couple of weeks, in what was quite likely a case of insufficient preparation and/or skills and/or judgment. Must have got that gear from one of those responsible dealers with lots of guts. Look, Mike, for all you know they built the boats themselves, or borrowed them from a friend, or found them washed up on the beach, or stole them from under someone's deck. But this brings up another interesting point. You're opposed to the government being the nanny and keeping us from hurting ourselves...but you want outfitters to take on the role instead? Help me understand this because I'm really not getting it. Regulation is regulation, and if someone's saying, "Tut tut tut, no kayaking for YOU," what do you care if their badge says The Gummint or Joe Bob's Kayaks? -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
Self rescure idea
Brian Nystrom writes:
Mary Malmros wrote: Show me a reasonably parallel situation where similar events have caused "the politicians" to "lean on" participants as a whole -- presuably with the effect of restricting their activity -- and I will perhaps be somewhat more inclined to believe that someone dying because he can't do a self-rescue is going to mean the end of kayaking as we know it. How soon they forget... And how little they understand... It was only a few months ago that paddlers in CT fought off an attempt at registration w/mandatory training that was being (thinly) disguised as a safety measure. It was, but not in the sense that you're trying to portray it. This bill, which has reared its ugly head before, was put forth as a "homeland security" thing. The argument put forth was we gotta register the kayaks so that furrin terrorists in kayaks can't land somewhere and blow up the beach or something. This was extensively discussed on NPMB, and the consensus was that it was 9/11 hysteria, being used as a stalking horse for certain ricon Connecticut shore property owners who didn't want the smelly common folk landing on their beaches. And, of course, there's always a dummy or two in the legislature who says, "Aha! Revenue source!" But it was never about protecting the kayakers from themselves; it was about protecting the rest of the world from them kayaking terrorists. -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
Self rescure idea
On 24-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:
Do you think that it's impossible to buy scuba gear off the net? Would someone check my license if I tried to do so, and tell me I couldn't buy without it? You can buy all the gear you want, but where are you gonna get the air in the tank? And kayakers blow it off, and no one gets busted. I know several folks who _have_ been stopped and checked. A buddy of mine was stopped twice this summer. In Canada, marine police and Coast Guard are making this stick. They are ticketing. YMMV Regulation is regulation, and if someone's saying, "Tut tut tut, no kayaking for YOU," what do you care if their badge says The Gummint or Joe Bob's Kayaks? I never said anything about regulation of kayakers. I said that some folks in the sport have to take the attitude that not everyone should assume that paddling is for them just because it's cool. I gave the example of scuba as an industry that has the guts to do that. This in response to someone who mentioned some arganization's (ACA?) idea that "paddling is for everyone". There's also a difference between arbitrary rules and one that says "if you can't handle a kayak regardless of training, don't use one". A stirrup is not a solution to a problem, it's a symptom of a bigger problem. Mike |
Self rescure idea
Gonna snip a bunch to get back to the main point... "Michael Daly" writes: On 24-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote: [snipsters about scuba, backcountry skiing, etc...back to paddling...] Regulation is regulation, and if someone's saying, "Tut tut tut, no kayaking for YOU," what do you care if their badge says The Gummint or Joe Bob's Kayaks? I never said anything about regulation of kayakers. I said that some folks in the sport have to take the attitude that not everyone should assume that paddling is for them just because it's cool. I gave the example of scuba as an industry that has the guts to do that. This in response to someone who mentioned some arganization's (ACA?) idea that "paddling is for everyone". Step back a few posts. We were talking about the ability to perform a self-rescue in which the kayaker reenters the cockpit without the aid of a strap. Now, it's not clear to me that the need to use a strap represents a huge increase in risk, but I'm not arguing that point -- I'll assume that it does, and that if you can perform a paddle float self rescue without a strap, you're bunches and bunches safer than someone who can only perform a paddle float self-rescue with a strap. Now, several posts back, someone -- not me, perhaps you -- introduced the word "solo" into this discussion. Solo kayaking is not kayaking, it's a subset of kayaking. When you go solo, you take on additional risk -- and common sense and prudence dictate that when you take on additional risk in one area, you really ought to minimize it somewhere else, like having really bomber self-rescue skills. Inability to perform, or difficulty in performing, an unassisted self-rescue is a pretty good indicator that you can't minimize the risk enough to paddle solo. So you don't paddle solo. But that does NOT mean that you can't paddle. You can paddle in a group, you can paddle in calm shallow water, you can restrict your paddling to good weather, etc. The ACA says, "Paddling is for everyone, not, "All kinds of paddling are for everyone." There's also a difference between arbitrary rules and one that says "if you can't handle a kayak regardless of training, don't use one". At all? Anywhere? Under any conditions? A stirrup is not a solution to a problem, it's a symptom of a bigger problem. That bigger problem being...? -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
Self rescure idea
On 24-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:
Now, it's not clear to me that the need to use a strap represents a huge increase in risk, but I'm not arguing that point -- I'll assume that it does, and that if you can perform a paddle float self rescue without a strap, you're bunches and bunches safer than someone who can only perform a paddle float self-rescue with a strap. [...] That bigger problem being...? If a person needs a strap, they are not capable of the basic physical skill of floating on the surface and sliding onto the kayak. This is usually because of some combination of strength, size, disability etc. It could be because they are dumb, but we covered that with the assumption that they would get training. Disabled persons can get suitably set up with an alternate rescue strategy, which may include no solo paddling and staying with folks that they've done appropriate rescue practice with. I've met lots of disabled athletes that are quite capable and are not a liability. (my partner used to work with disabled athletes as a guide and trainer) If you don't have the strength or are so out of condition that you need to mount a kayak like someone mounts a horse, that indicates that you really shouldn't be paddling. Get into shape etc. At all? Anywhere? Under any conditions? If you can't do this without a strap, solo isn't for you and, if you are paddling with me, say, that puts me at risk if I have to help you. The conditions under which you go over are not conditions under which I want to expend time and energy helping you back up onto a kayak. If you can't do an effective solo rescue, you are not a good target for an assisted rescue. So the conditions under which you'd be safe are those where the water is warm and shallow, so you can stay in the water as long as it takes and either stand up to reenter or walk to shore and reenter. In this case, you won't be paddling with too many sea kayakers I've met. Mike |
Self rescure idea
Mary Malmros wrote: Brian Nystrom writes: Mary Malmros wrote: Show me a reasonably parallel situation where similar events have caused "the politicians" to "lean on" participants as a whole -- presuably with the effect of restricting their activity -- and I will perhaps be somewhat more inclined to believe that someone dying because he can't do a self-rescue is going to mean the end of kayaking as we know it. How soon they forget... And how little they understand... It was only a few months ago that paddlers in CT fought off an attempt at registration w/mandatory training that was being (thinly) disguised as a safety measure. It was, but not in the sense that you're trying to portray it. This bill, which has reared its ugly head before, was put forth as a "homeland security" thing. The argument put forth was we gotta register the kayaks so that furrin terrorists in kayaks can't land somewhere and blow up the beach or something. This was extensively discussed on NPMB, and the consensus was that it was 9/11 hysteria, being used as a stalking horse for certain ricon Connecticut shore property owners who didn't want the smelly common folk landing on their beaches. And, of course, there's always a dummy or two in the legislature who says, "Aha! Revenue source!" But it was never about protecting the kayakers from themselves; it was about protecting the rest of the world from them kayaking terrorists. You're wrong Mary. That's the way a similar bill was put forth LAST year. This year's bill was proposed under different aupices, the major one being safety. I've read the transcripts of the hearing. Have you? It was shot down largely because there is an average of only 1.2 kayaker deaths in CT annually, which pretty much negated the safety argument. -- Regards Brian |
Self rescure idea
"Michael Daly" writes:
On 24-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote: Note that there was a hefty snip here... Now, it's not clear to me that the need to use a strap represents a huge increase in risk, but I'm not arguing that point -- I'll assume that it does, and that if you can perform a paddle float self rescue without a strap, you're bunches and bunches safer than someone who can only perform a paddle float self-rescue with a strap. [...] That bigger problem being...? If a person needs a strap, they are not capable of the basic physical skill of floating on the surface and sliding onto the kayak. This is usually because of some combination of strength, size, disability etc. It could be because they are dumb, but we covered that with the assumption that they would get training. What about someone who can't float on the surface and slide into the kayak without the help of a paddle float? Lotta people in that category. Do you likewise consider them to be incapable of a "basic physical skill" that, it seems, you consider a necessary skill for someone to be able to kayak? Disabled persons can get suitably set up with an alternate rescue strategy, which may include no solo paddling and staying with folks that they've done appropriate rescue practice with. I've met lots of disabled athletes that are quite capable and are not a liability. (my partner used to work with disabled athletes as a guide and trainer) If you don't have the strength or are so out of condition that you need to mount a kayak like someone mounts a horse, that indicates that you really shouldn't be paddling. Get into shape etc. So, if someone has a permanent physical disability that prevents them from using a "standard" self-rescue strategy, you can paddle...but if you don't have the strength to do so, you shouldn't? This smacks of a moral argument to me, regarding a matter where I personally feel that practicality ought to rule the day. If someone can't perform a "standard" self-rescue, does it matter why? Does it matter if they're permanently disabled, or temporarily disabled, or a small woman who's been told all her life that muscles aren't ladylike, or a big slob who's been eating too many Chicken McNuggets? At all? Anywhere? Under any conditions? If you can't do this without a strap, solo isn't for you and, if you are paddling with me, say, that puts me at risk if I have to help you. The conditions under which you go over are not conditions under which I want to expend time and energy helping you back up onto a kayak. If you can't do an effective solo rescue, you are not a good target for an assisted rescue. That's fine. I support 100% the right -- legal AND moral ;-) -- for any paddler to make the call on who they paddle with, for any reason whatsoever. It's your risk, it's your shuttle, and you're the one who's gonna have to listen for n hours if your new paddling bud ends up being a Jehovah's Witness Amway rep. So the conditions under which you'd be safe are those where the water is warm and shallow, so you can stay in the water as long as it takes and either stand up to reenter or walk to shore and reenter. In this case, you won't be paddling with too many sea kayakers I've met. Probably not, although back in the day when I lived by the sea, I used to do trips with such people, from time to time. Right off the beach, no one can do an unassisted self-rescue -- not until proven otherwise, and I was taking people who'd never been in a boat before. With people like that, you can never assume that they'll be able to do anything, but noobs gotta start somewhere. Anyway, they'll surprise you in both directions. -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
Self rescure idea
Brian Nystrom writes:
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010405010304080107050408 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mary Malmros wrote: Brian Nystrom writes: Mary Malmros wrote: Show me a reasonably parallel situation where similar events have caused "the politicians" to "lean on" participants as a whole -- presuably with the effect of restricting their activity -- and I will perhaps be somewhat more inclined to believe that someone dying because he can't do a self-rescue is going to mean the end of kayaking as we know it. How soon they forget... And how little they understand... It was only a few months ago that paddlers in CT fought off an attempt at registration w/mandatory training that was being (thinly) disguised as a safety measure. It was, but not in the sense that you're trying to portray it. This bill, which has reared its ugly head before, was put forth as a "homeland security" thing. The argument put forth was we gotta register the kayaks so that furrin terrorists in kayaks can't land somewhere and blow up the beach or something. This was extensively discussed on NPMB, and the consensus was that it was 9/11 hysteria, being used as a stalking horse for certain ricon Connecticut shore property owners who didn't want the smelly common folk landing on their beaches. And, of course, there's always a dummy or two in the legislature who says, "Aha! Revenue source!" But it was never about protecting the kayakers from themselves; it was about protecting the rest of the world from them kayaking terrorists. You're wrong Mary. That's the way a similar bill was put forth LAST year. This year's bill was proposed under different aupices, the major one being safety. I've read the transcripts of the hearing. Have you? It was shot down largely because there is an average of only 1.2 kayaker deaths in CT annually, which pretty much negated the safety argument. I didn't read every word of the transcripts (did you?), but it was my understanding that the safety thing was a MINOR issue, and "homeland security" + revenue were the main issues. Got a cite on those transcripts that says otherwise? -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
Self rescure idea
"Michael Daly" ) writes:
On 19-Oct-2003, (Alex McGruer) wrote: If you must use a stirrup to re enter a kayak you should not be out alone. That is the rude truth. I'd agree with that. In fact, they might consider another sport. A standard paddle float re entry is a good option and sponsons may help in your circomstance. The problem with both these methods is that neither addresses the problem of needing a stirrup. Both provide extra stability, but the issue is that he can't get up onto the deck. ISTR that someone already suggested learning to float on the surface and slide onto the deck. I've written here befor of my experince using an old horse collar PFD under my hips to keep them on the surface while sliding into my small boat from the side. Any boat cushion type floatation device would do. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Self rescure idea
Mary Malmros ) writes:
Well, there's also a difference between how fit/skilled/whatever you need to be to kayak, and how fit/skilled/whatever you need to be to kayak solo. I don't think needing a stirrup should keep someone out of kayaking as such, but if you do, you should recognize that your limited ability to self-rescue creates some additional risk for you, and (if you are sensible) restricts where you can paddle, and when, and with whom. the other approach is to choose a kayak suited to the paddler's ability. nothing wrong with a bigger more stable kayak. or with anti-capsize aids like sponsons. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Self rescure idea
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Self rescure idea
On 25-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:
What about someone who can't float on the surface and slide into the kayak without the help of a paddle float? I never said anything about that. I only said that there's a problem if they can't get themselves back onto the kayak. How the kayak is stabilized is a separate issue. So, if someone has a permanent physical disability that prevents them from using a "standard" self-rescue strategy, you can paddle...but if you don't have the strength to do so, you shouldn't? That's right. This smacks of a moral argument to me, Nothing of the kind. Disability isn't inability. Go check the upper body strength on some of those wheelchair athletes. Doing something different isn't the same thing as being unable to do anything, If a person is incabable of getting into the kayak because they are weak/overweight/whatever, they can do something about it. Alex gave one example where that happened with someone he knows. I said that's a good thing. They should choose - either develop the skill/strength/whatever to get into a kayak or stay out of the kayak. Worst case - their own life is at stake. Right off the beach, no one can do an unassisted self-rescue -- not until proven otherwise, and I was taking people who'd never been in a boat before. With people like that, you can never assume that they'll be able to do anything, but noobs gotta start somewhere I've never said the problem was not knowing. It's not being able to. Newbies can learn. If they can't or are unable to perform, then it should be pointed out to them that they need to be able to do it or give up on kayaking. Mike |
Self rescure idea
Mary Malmros wrote in
: "Michael Daly" writes: On 24-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote: Note that there was a hefty snip here... Now, it's not clear to me that the need to use a strap represents a huge increase in risk, but I'm not arguing that point -- I'll assume that it does, and that if you can perform a paddle float self rescue without a strap, you're bunches and bunches safer than someone who can only perform a paddle float self-rescue with a strap. [...] That bigger problem being...? If a person needs a strap, they are not capable of the basic physical skill of floating on the surface and sliding onto the kayak. This is usually because of some combination of strength, size, disability etc. It could be because they are dumb, but we covered that with the assumption that they would get training. What about someone who can't float on the surface and slide into the kayak without the help of a paddle float? Lotta people in that category. Do you likewise consider them to be incapable of a "basic physical skill" that, it seems, you consider a necessary skill for someone to be able to kayak? Depends on the conditions. When comparing a self-rescue using a paddle float and a self rescue using a paddle float with some sort of stirrup the primary difference is how long you're going to be in the water as it takes longer to set up the stirrup. In water that is 70 degrees it probably makes little difference if you need a stirrup to help reentry. As the water gets colder, staying in the water longer than it takes just to set up a paddle float and reenter without a stirrup would begin to put one in the risk of hypothermia. As the water gets even colder, the amount of time it takes to exit the boat and set up a paddle float for reentry may put you at risk of hypothermia. At that point, it would not be safe for someone that can only self rescue using a paddle float but can't roll to paddle solo. |
Self rescure idea
"Michael Daly" writes:
On 25-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote: What about someone who can't float on the surface and slide into the kayak without the help of a paddle float? I never said anything about that. I only said that there's a problem if they can't get themselves back onto the kayak. How the kayak is stabilized is a separate issue. Right, but a paddle float is a tool, a stirrup is just another tool. You can either use your tool of choice to get back into the boat, or you can't. Why is someone who uses one tool reasonably self-reliant and a person who uses another tool utterly unsafe? So, if someone has a permanent physical disability that prevents them from using a "standard" self-rescue strategy, you can paddle...but if you don't have the strength to do so, you shouldn't? That's right. This smacks of a moral argument to me, Nothing of the kind. Disability isn't inability. Go check the upper body strength on some of those wheelchair athletes. Doing something different isn't the same thing as being unable to do anything, And if someone can use a tool to do something, do they still have an "inability"? If a person is incabable of getting into the kayak because they are weak/overweight/whatever, they can do something about it. And if they CAN get into the kayak using a tool that isn't the same as what you use...then they can get into the kayak. Period. Why does it matter how they do it? Alex gave one example where that happened with someone he knows. I said that's a good thing. They should choose - either develop the skill/strength/whatever to get into a kayak or stay out of the kayak. Worst case - their own life is at stake. Third choice: find a tool that they can use. Right off the beach, no one can do an unassisted self-rescue -- not until proven otherwise, and I was taking people who'd never been in a boat before. With people like that, you can never assume that they'll be able to do anything, but noobs gotta start somewhere I've never said the problem was not knowing. It's not being able to. Newbies can learn. If they can't or are unable to perform, then it should be pointed out to them that they need to be able to do it or give up on kayaking. Or -- one more time -- find another way. -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
Self rescure idea
On 26-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:
a stirrup is just another tool. Which indicates there is a more serious problem. Mike |
Self rescure idea
"Michael Daly" ) writes:
On 25-Oct-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote: nothing wrong with a bigger more stable kayak. or with anti-capsize aids like sponsons And we've told you countless times that a boat that's more stable in calm water is less stable in rough water - when you're more likely to go over. But you _still_ don't get it! sorry, son, when it comes to hydrodynamic stability bigger IS better. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Self rescure idea
"Michael Daly" writes:
On 26-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote: a stirrup is just another tool. Which indicates there is a more serious problem. So why doesn't someone who needs a paddle float -- which is JUST ANOTHER TOOL -- also have a "more serious problem"? -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
Self rescure idea
"Mary Malmros" wrote in message ... "Michael Daly" writes: On 26-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote: a stirrup is just another tool. Which indicates there is a more serious problem. So why doesn't someone who needs a paddle float -- which is JUST ANOTHER TOOL -- also have a "more serious problem"? And what might that "more serious problem" be, exactly? Given the variance in ability of all paddlers, there are probably a few people out there that can deploy and and execute a paddle float re-entry with a stirrup more quickly than many folks can with just the paddle float. |
Self rescure idea
"Mary Malmros" wrote in message ... "Michael Daly" writes: On 26-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote: a stirrup is just another tool. Which indicates there is a more serious problem. So why doesn't someone who needs a paddle float -- which is JUST ANOTHER TOOL -- also have a "more serious problem"? Well, Mary, In the world of Watt, an outrigger is not a sponson and thus, cannot add stability to a hull. Look it up in the Journal Of Irreproduceable Results. It is the chapter just after the one on cold fusion. Rick |
Self rescure idea
On 26-Oct-2003, "Dave Van" wrote:
And what might that "more serious problem" be, exactly? Try reading the whoel thread - already addressed. Mike |
Self rescure idea
On 26-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:
So why doesn't someone who needs a paddle float -- which is JUST ANOTHER TOOL -- also have a "more serious problem"? Getting into a kayak without a stirrup is easy. Getting in without a stability aid is harder. I don't use either. I roll. Kayaking isn't about relying on tools, it's about skill. Since it is easy to get into a kayak without a stirrup, then clearly not being able to do that should tell you something about the paddler in question. It's an obvious cutoff - this person can't reasonably handle a kayak if they can't do something that's easy. They need to get into shape, add strength, whatever to be able to meet the demands of such a simple task. If they can't, hand them a beer and the remote and tell them to get their kayak thrills vicariously from video tapes. We're not talking about developing olympic calibre kayaking skills here, we're talking about a very simple task. If you absolutely can't do it, give up on kayaking. Mike |
Self rescure idea
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Self rescure idea
"Michael Daly" wrote in message e.rogers.com... On 26-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote: So why doesn't someone who needs a paddle float -- which is JUST ANOTHER TOOL -- also have a "more serious problem"? Getting into a kayak without a stirrup is easy. Getting in without a stability aid is harder. Mike, I have to disagree with you here. I don't usually use a stirrup but I always carry one. One day, while playing victim in a rescue/re-entry class, I was faced with a rescuer who was unwilling or unable to lean his boat and put his weight onto my boat to stabalize it while I re-entered. He was fine with emptying my boat, but as I would try to pull myself over the back deck, he would let the kayak roll so that the boat was on its side and the cockpit was under water again. After three attempts, I realized this paddler would not be able to do a regular "T" assisted rescue. I asked for his sling and had him put it around his combing and over my boat. This made his boat, take my weight and I just stepped up into my cockpit. If this had been a real life situation and not a class, I would probably still be in the water while waiting for him to learn rescue skills. There are also some people who have negative buoyancy in their legs and they just can't keep them on the surface. You don't have to use a stirrup by wrapping it around a paddle that is placed under the 2 boats--I could never recommend that method--but there is a use for it just like there is a use for paddle floats, spare paddles, and every other piece of safety equipment we carry. I don't use either. I roll. Kayaking isn't about relying on tools, it's about skill. Have you never had a boat sucked off of you in rough surf or large breaking waves--rolling won't necessarily help, if you have been removed from your boat by Mother Nature or King Neptune. Also, a very common kayaking injury is a shoulder dislocation. Suppose you had somebody in the water with a dislocated shoulder. How would you suggest they pull themselves up onto their back decks with one hand. Have you practiced this? This would be a perfect scenario for a stirrup. Since it is easy to get into a kayak without a stirrup, then clearly not being able to do that should tell you something about the paddler in question. It's an obvious cutoff - this person can't reasonably handle a kayak if they can't do something that's easy. I don't buy this assumption at all. Many women don't have the upper body strength to pull themselves over the deck--but they do have the lower body strength to step up onto the back deck. Just because something is easy for you, doesn't necessarily make it easy for someone else. If another method works for them, so be it. What counts is that you do what works for you. Steve |
Self rescure idea
On 26-Oct-2003, "Seakayaker" wrote:
Mike, I have to disagree with you here. I don't usually use a stirrup but I always carry one. [...] I don't have a problem with using the stirrup as a one-off rescue method. I can quickly tie my contact tow line into a sling for such a purpose. However, those who _always_ need a stirrup are over their heads. After three attempts, I realized this paddler would not be able to do a regular "T" assisted rescue. But he could if he learns to get over his problem with leaning. One of the first things I teach people is to lean on another kayak. This before other assisted rescue methods. That allows them to realize that they are more stable with two kayaks. There are also some people who have negative buoyancy in their legs and they just can't keep them on the surface. That would be a person who is lean and that suggests relatively fit for their weight. That's where a dolphin kick comes in. Mine only stay at the surface with a wetsuit on. Without one, I can get near the surface and a kick does everything else. I don't use either. I roll. Kayaking isn't about relying on tools, it's about skill. Have you never had a boat sucked off of you in rough surf or large breaking waves--rolling won't necessarily help, if you have been removed from your boat by Mother Nature or King Neptune. Re-entry and roll. If I'm in the surf zone, that would depend on water depth - at some point it may be easier to walk to shore. Not much surf on the Great Lakes, though. Also, a very common kayaking injury is a shoulder dislocation. Suppose you had somebody in the water with a dislocated shoulder. How would you suggest they pull themselves up onto their back decks with one hand. Have you practiced this? This would be a perfect scenario for a stirrup. Again, a one-off event. I've also practiced several one-arm rolls, but how that would go with the additional pain of a real separation is something I hope never to have to find out. I don't buy this assumption at all. Many women don't have the upper body strength to pull themselves over the deck--but they do have the lower body strength to step up onto the back deck. Well, I don't buy this. If they are that weak, how do they paddle at all? I know that there are princesses out there that can't do a thing (and I've seen kayaking guides tow them through an entire trip!), but most of the women I paddle with would be insulted to have it suggested that they use a stirrup because they're weak. If someone is serious about kayaking, they should at least be able to do _one_ pushup! Mike |
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