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Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
A week ago two rivers in the northern lower peninusila of Michigan were designated as Natural Rivers under the 1970 Michigan Natural Rivers act. This action protects the scenic quality of the Pine and Upper Manistee Rivers, preserving their natural character. So far, so good. Now the legislature is trying to undo that designation and gut the Natural Rivers act. Not so good. Public hearings are tomorrow, 24 Sept 2003. See http://www.mlui.org/landwater/fullarticle.asp?fileid=16566 -- //-Walt // // |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
Yeah, but most Lower Michigan rivers are subject to industrial waste or
agricultural runoff. And that's not natural. Walt wrote: A week ago two rivers in the northern lower peninusila of Michigan were designated as Natural Rivers under the 1970 Michigan Natural Rivers act. This action protects the scenic quality of the Pine and Upper Manistee Rivers, preserving their natural character. So far, so good. Now the legislature is trying to undo that designation and gut the Natural Rivers act. Not so good. Public hearings are tomorrow, 24 Sept 2003. See http://www.mlui.org/landwater/fullarticle.asp?fileid=16566 -- //-Walt // // -- "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." --Dr. Hunter S. Thompson |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
There are no natural rivers any more in Michigan. All have been altered by
man to some degree, logging, navigation, farming, industrial, etc. Why do we insist on calling stuff by inappropriate names? Its like claiming we have "wilderness" in Michigan. What nonsense! "Walt" wrote in message ... A week ago two rivers in the northern lower peninusila of Michigan were designated as Natural Rivers under the 1970 Michigan Natural Rivers act. This action protects the scenic quality of the Pine and Upper Manistee Rivers, preserving their natural character. So far, so good. Now the legislature is trying to undo that designation and gut the Natural Rivers act. Not so good. Public hearings are tomorrow, 24 Sept 2003. See http://www.mlui.org/landwater/fullarticle.asp?fileid=16566 -- //-Walt // // |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
In rec.boats.paddle stone wrote:
Walt ) wrote; A week ago two rivers in the northern lower peninusila of Michigan were designated as Natural Rivers under the 1970 Michigan Natural Rivers act. This action protects the scenic quality of the Pine and Upper Manistee Rivers, preserving their natural character. So far, so good. Now the legislature is trying to undo that designation and gut the Natural Rivers act. Not so good. Public hearings are 24 Sept 2003. There are no natural rivers any more in Michigan. All have been altered by man to some degree, logging, navigation, farming, industrial, etc. Why do we insist on calling stuff by inappropriate names? Its like claiming we have "wilderness" in Michigan. What nonsense! Wilderness is a state of mind, and can exist in very small patches. Like beavers and other animals that modify rivers, man (and woman!) are part of nature. A Wild & Scenic river, or a Natural River, is one that hasn't (yet) been turned into a reservoir. That's all we want. There are enough reservoirs already, at least where I live. |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
Interesting point, but if you want natural rivers go to Alaska, not Michigan
or anywhere in the Midwest. We can not alter our environment to meet the emotional needs of a few elitists. "Bill Tuthill" wrote in message ... In rec.boats.paddle stone wrote: Walt ) wrote; A week ago two rivers in the northern lower peninusila of Michigan were designated as Natural Rivers under the 1970 Michigan Natural Rivers act. This action protects the scenic quality of the Pine and Upper Manistee Rivers, preserving their natural character. So far, so good. Now the legislature is trying to undo that designation and gut the Natural Rivers act. Not so good. Public hearings are 24 Sept 2003. There are no natural rivers any more in Michigan. All have been altered by man to some degree, logging, navigation, farming, industrial, etc. Why do we insist on calling stuff by inappropriate names? Its like claiming we have "wilderness" in Michigan. What nonsense! Wilderness is a state of mind, and can exist in very small patches. Like beavers and other animals that modify rivers, man (and woman!) are part of nature. A Wild & Scenic river, or a Natural River, is one that hasn't (yet) been turned into a reservoir. That's all we want. There are enough reservoirs already, at least where I live. |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
"stone" wrote in message ... Interesting point, but if you want natural rivers go to Alaska, not Michigan or anywhere in the Midwest. We can not alter our environment to meet the emotional needs of a few elitists. You need not travel so far. Just cross the border into Canada and drive to the North Shore of Lake Superior. Lots of very good natural rivers. Jim Carter "The Boat" Bayfield |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
In article ,
"stone" wrote: Interesting point, but if you want natural rivers go to Alaska, not Michigan or anywhere in the Midwest. We can not alter our environment to meet the emotional needs of a few elitists. Which elitists would that be? Dave |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
The ones that think there is wilderness in the lower 48, that push for
rewriting the National Park general management plans to limit access for the public unless you are a backpacker, that pushed private boats out of Isle Royale (America's only "maritime" park) so "wilderness" backpackers could enjoy themselves without seeing a, heaven forbid "boat", that are working to add "wilderness" to the Apostle Islands National Lakeshore and Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore, that denigrate people over animals, I can rattle on and on, but you miscreants know who you are......that will not allow logging but instead let our forests become tinder dry only to go up in flames because they hate timber men, etc...... you know a good rant is good for the soul..... "Dave Moorman" wrote in message ... In article , "stone" wrote: Interesting point, but if you want natural rivers go to Alaska, not Michigan or anywhere in the Midwest. We can not alter our environment to meet the emotional needs of a few elitists. Which elitists would that be? Dave |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
Yep, that's right on the money. Folks in the Midwest don't need solitude,
clean water or beauty. They don't need to feel a delicate wind in the pines, while looking down a ribbon of water. They don't need to see pintails on the water, or a heron in the rushes. They have Walmart, stocked full of worthless crap made by slaves in a far-away land where they don't have to bear witness to the consequences of their actions. They have Pizza Hut, and McDonalds on every intersection, and can fatten themselves by the day at an endless fountain of high-fructose corn syrup-charged pop. No, you're right-- people in the Midwest don't need wild rivers. They've already got it all. Chuck http://www.wildcountry.info in article , stone at wrote on 9/28/03 6:34 AM: Interesting point, but if you want natural rivers go to Alaska, not Michigan or anywhere in the Midwest. We can not alter our environment to meet the emotional needs of a few elitists. |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
Wow, you are as bitter and rabid about "wilderness" and "wild rivers" as I
am...just on the other side of the stream! But on a more conciliatory tone, if they want wild things, they need to go where they are not try to "restore virginity" here.... "Charles Pezeshki" wrote in message ... Yep, that's right on the money. Folks in the Midwest don't need solitude, clean water or beauty. They don't need to feel a delicate wind in the pines, while looking down a ribbon of water. They don't need to see pintails on the water, or a heron in the rushes. They have Walmart, stocked full of worthless crap made by slaves in a far-away land where they don't have to bear witness to the consequences of their actions. They have Pizza Hut, and McDonalds on every intersection, and can fatten themselves by the day at an endless fountain of high-fructose corn syrup-charged pop. No, you're right-- people in the Midwest don't need wild rivers. They've already got it all. Chuck http://www.wildcountry.info in article , stone at wrote on 9/28/03 6:34 AM: Interesting point, but if you want natural rivers go to Alaska, not Michigan or anywhere in the Midwest. We can not alter our environment to meet the emotional needs of a few elitists. |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
"stone" typed:
Wow, you are as bitter and rabid about "wilderness" and "wild rivers" as I am...just on the other side of the stream! But on a more conciliatory tone, if they want wild things, they need to go where they are not try to "restore virginity" here.... Yeh, but... If everyone who wants a wilderness goes to the same relatively small area where true wilderness exists, there will be so many people that the true wilderness will CEASE to exist there. How much better to try and restore enough lands in the lower 48 to enough of a semblance of "wilderness" to meet the needs of outdoorspeople, so that the resources will not exceed their carrying capacities and cease to resemble "wilderness"? If people want more Chevys, GM makes more Chevys. So, if people want more wilderness -- or, at least, something like "wilderness" -- why should we not make more "wilderness"? Some heal their souls by walking in urban parks. Some heal their souls by driving in farm country. Some heal their souls by hiking in crowded National Parks. Some heal their souls by backpacking in "restore[d] [non-]virgin" woodlands. Would you argue against the creation of enough urban parks to fulfill the demand? Would you argue against the creation of more National Parks, to reduce crowding and enhance the experience of visiting? If some people can fill their need for [perceived] wilderness by spending time in restored non-virgin woodlands, why would you deny them that? If restoring non-virgin woodlands to some semblance of wilderness is the best we can do with what we have left, why would you resist the attempt to do the best we can? Is there anything more elitist than to say that only those with the time and money to go to Alaska should be permitted to enjoy primitive camping in what appears to be a natural environment? You set up a false dichotomy when you say environmentalists are against people, in favor of animals. Jeez, we can have BOTH! You set up a REALLY false dichotomy when you say environmentalists hate loggers. The timber companies have put more loggers out of work, with "productivity gains" from ever more-destructive mechanized logging, than environmental and conservation movements ever have (not to mention putting all the millworkers out of work by shipping the milling overseas). These false dichotomys have you fighting people who really want the same thing you want: a beautiful United States to live in. -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty -- ================================================== ==================== Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471 Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu 1-336-713-5077 OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters. ================================================== ==================== |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
The point of all this is that the wilderness in the lower 48 is gone....long
gone. If you want a "wilderness experience" go to Alaska or get Disney to make you for you. You can't bring it back....areas logged over three times ain't wilderness......and will not ever be so again.....and don't dare to tell me that because I live in a relatively "undeveloped" area I have to stop my ecomonic developement so you can wander around in the "woods." You evidently live in NC....which is a wonderful state with many great places....but don't stick your nose in our Michigan and tell us how to live our lives.... nuff said.... "Oci-One Kanubi" wrote in message om... "stone" typed: Wow, you are as bitter and rabid about "wilderness" and "wild rivers" as I am...just on the other side of the stream! But on a more conciliatory tone, if they want wild things, they need to go where they are not try to "restore virginity" here.... Yeh, but... If everyone who wants a wilderness goes to the same relatively small area where true wilderness exists, there will be so many people that the true wilderness will CEASE to exist there. How much better to try and restore enough lands in the lower 48 to enough of a semblance of "wilderness" to meet the needs of outdoorspeople, so that the resources will not exceed their carrying capacities and cease to resemble "wilderness"? If people want more Chevys, GM makes more Chevys. So, if people want more wilderness -- or, at least, something like "wilderness" -- why should we not make more "wilderness"? Some heal their souls by walking in urban parks. Some heal their souls by driving in farm country. Some heal their souls by hiking in crowded National Parks. Some heal their souls by backpacking in "restore[d] [non-]virgin" woodlands. Would you argue against the creation of enough urban parks to fulfill the demand? Would you argue against the creation of more National Parks, to reduce crowding and enhance the experience of visiting? If some people can fill their need for [perceived] wilderness by spending time in restored non-virgin woodlands, why would you deny them that? If restoring non-virgin woodlands to some semblance of wilderness is the best we can do with what we have left, why would you resist the attempt to do the best we can? Is there anything more elitist than to say that only those with the time and money to go to Alaska should be permitted to enjoy primitive camping in what appears to be a natural environment? You set up a false dichotomy when you say environmentalists are against people, in favor of animals. Jeez, we can have BOTH! You set up a REALLY false dichotomy when you say environmentalists hate loggers. The timber companies have put more loggers out of work, with "productivity gains" from ever more-destructive mechanized logging, than environmental and conservation movements ever have (not to mention putting all the millworkers out of work by shipping the milling overseas). These false dichotomys have you fighting people who really want the same thing you want: a beautiful United States to live in. -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty -- ================================================== ==================== Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471 Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu 1-336-713-5077 OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters. ================================================== ==================== |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
"stone" wrote in message
... The point of all this is that the wilderness in the lower 48 is gone....long gone. If you want a "wilderness experience" go to Alaska or get Disney to make you for you. No, I don't want a manufactured experience. I want to hike or canoe in the outdoors. In my home state. You can't bring it back....areas logged over three times ain't wilderness......and will not ever be so again.....and don't dare to tell me that because I live in a relatively "undeveloped" area I have to stop my ecomonic developement so you can wander around in the "woods." You want economic development, move to Denver. Much of the "development" in rural areas has been one-shot based on non-renewable resources. The area gets logged or mined, the business takes its money and moves on, leaving behind a scarred landscape. Besides, tourism is one of the biggest industries in Michigan. People come here because of the outdoor character. Improving it makes for a better tourist destination. Sustainable economic development. You evidently live in NC....which is a wonderful state with many great places....but don't stick your nose in our Michigan and tell us how to live our lives.... Don't pretend to speak for all Michiganders. nuff said.... Hardly. |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
"stone" typed:
The point of all this is that the wilderness in the lower 48 is gone....long gone. If you want a "wilderness experience" go to Alaska or get Disney to make you for you. Man, I am sooooo tired of listening to you elitists telling me that if I cannot afford to go to Alaska I must do without, or accept a mass-market commercial imitation. You can't bring it back....areas logged over three times ain't wilderness......and will not ever be so again..... Actually, that's patently false. All depends upon the time-scale you apply. But I repeat: absolute, pristine wilderness is not necessary to fulfill the spiritual/emotional needs of most Americans (look at Europeans, who have "recreating" themselves by shelter-hiking the Alps, for centuries). An undeveloped, un-clearcut wood, with some renmaining natural fauna, is quite enriching for many people, even if there are blazed trails and -- omigosh -- huts and footbridges along the way. And even if it was a clear-cut site or a strip-mine several decades earlier. and don't dare to tell me that because I live in a relatively "undeveloped" area I have to stop my ecomonic developement so you can wander around in the "woods." No, I don't think I want to tell you that, unconditionally. But I would certainly support regulation of the forms of development that you would be allowed to choose. This is a fairly well-established principle, where, for example, zoning boards across the country will not allow businesses to be established in the middle of a residential neighborhood, or industry to be established in a commercial neighborhood. It's just a matter of scale, and on a large scale, the United States is my neighborhood and I don't care to see destructive industries in that neighborhood -- even if it's yer backyard being trashed, not mine. You evidently live in NC....which is a wonderful state with many great places....but don't stick your nose in our Michigan and tell us how to live our lives.... Sorry, mister, but yer Michigan is part of my United States, and I am interested in keeping my United States a beautiful place to live. If despoilation is how you want to live yer life, I'll tell you yer wrong, and I'll vote for Federal regulations to force you to change. And if yer state legislature allows you to trash yer state, then yer state won't get any of my tourist dollars. nuff said.... Yer not kidding. Too much said, with not enough thought. -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty -- ================================================== ==================== Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471 Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu 1-336-713-5077 OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters. ================================================== ==================== |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
stone wrote:
The point of all this is that the wilderness in the lower 48 is gone....long gone. If you want a "wilderness experience" go to Alaska or get Disney to make you for you. You can't bring it back....areas logged over three times ain't wilderness......and will not ever be so again..... Just because it's not perfect or pristine anymore is no excuse for letting it go completely to hell. The idea is to preserve what's left. If you want a river that's so polluted that it catches on fire, go to Cleveland. and don't dare to tell me that because I live in a relatively "undeveloped" area I have to stop my ecomonic developement so you can wander around in the "woods." You don't own the river. Nobody owns the river. Stop acting like you have some sort of claim on it that you don't. You evidently live in NC....which is a wonderful state with many great places....but don't stick your nose in our Michigan and tell us how to live our lives.... Ok, I'll stick my nose in then: We should conserve the rivers as a public resource. How's that? -- //-Walt // // |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
"stone" typed:
The point of all this is that the wilderness in the lower 48 is gone....long gone. If you want a "wilderness experience" go to Alaska or get Disney to make you for you. You can't bring it back....areas logged over three times ain't wilderness......and will not ever be so again.....and don't dare to tell me that because I live in a relatively "undeveloped" area I have to stop my ecomonic developement so you can wander around in the "woods." You evidently live in NC....which is a wonderful state with many great places....but don't stick your nose in our Michigan and tell us how to live our lives.... nuff said.... Disregard my last, Stone. Everything I typed in my last is true, and I stand behind it, but the fact is, it is almost possible to reconcile two contrary abstractions. Reconciliation has to come about in the realm of concrete reality. If I were standing with you on yer property in Michigan and you described the development you had in mind, I would probaly say "oh, is THAT what you mean? Yeh, that makes sense". And if you and I were standing together looking at some clearcut stand of US National Forest, where the timber had been harvested for a token payment and then shipped off to Japan and the river was running brown with runoff, you would probably agree with me that SOME kind of regulation was required. So, I'm sorry that my last started to verge on hostile, and used terminology that probably riled you when you read it. Unfortuately, my abstraction really cannot kick yer abstraction's ass. That's the way abstractions are. -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty -- ================================================== ==================== Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471 Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu 1-336-713-5077 OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters. ================================================== ==================== |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
In rec.boats.paddle stone wrote:
The point of all this is that the wilderness in the lower 48 is gone... long gone. Doesn't northern Michigan (the peninsula) still have wilderness? There are many wilderness areas left in California, some of them officially designated, some not. Areas in the N California mountains, outside the Sierra, generally have less airplane traffic overhead. |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
Bill Tuthill wrote:
In rec.boats.paddle stone wrote: The point of all this is that the wilderness in the lower 48 is gone... long gone. Doesn't northern Michigan (the peninsula) still have wilderness? Depends on how you define "wilderness". Except for a few hard to log areas (i.e. The Porcupine Mountains) the state of Michigan was logged clean in the last half of the 19th century. Nearly every tree was cut down in massive clearcuts, so there are very few stands of "natural" old growth forest (i.e. forest as it would exist in the absence of logging), or any trees older than about 100 years. Prior to that, there's a growing body of evidence that the North American landscape was shaped by fires intentionally set by native Americans, so the idea that Europeans discovered north America in some sort of pristine condition unaffected by man is mostly a romantic fantasy. Of course, that doesn't give us an excuse to simply trash the place. To a city boy, parts of the UP sure *look* like wilderness. There are wolves and bears and elk and moose and coyotes and probably cougars (even though the DNR won't admit it). No wolverines, though, and you have to bring the Vernors from town. The two rivers in question are in the lower peninsula. No, it's not pristine wilderness, but it's mostly undeveloped. Protection under the natural rivers act would help keep them that way. -- //-Walt // // |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
Bill Tuthill wrote:
In rec.boats.paddle stone wrote: The point of all this is that the wilderness in the lower 48 is gone... long gone. Doesn't northern Michigan (the peninsula) still have wilderness? Depends on how you define "wilderness". Except for a few hard to log areas (i.e. The Porcupine Mountains) the state of Michigan was logged clean in the last half of the 19th century. Nearly every tree was cut down in massive clearcuts, so there are very few stands of "natural" old growth forest (i.e. forest as it would exist in the absence of logging), almost no trees older than about 100 years. Prior to that, there's a growing body of evidence that the North American landscape was shaped by fires intentionally set by native Americans, so the idea that Europeans discovered north America in some sort of pristine condition unaffected by man is mostly a romantic fantasy. Of course, that doesn't give us an excuse to simply trash the place. To a city boy, parts of the UP sure *look* like wilderness. There are wolves and bears and elk and moose and coyotes and probably cougars (even though the DNR won't admit it). No wolverines, though, and you have to bring the Vernors from town. The two rivers in question are in the lower peninsula. No, it's not pristine wilderness, but it's mostly undeveloped. Protection under the natural rivers act would help keep them that way. -- //-Walt // // |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
Walt wrote:
[snip] Just because it's not perfect or pristine anymore is no excuse for letting it go completely to hell. The idea is to preserve what's left. If you want a river that's so polluted that it catches on fire, go to Cleveland. I've never been much of a fan of Ohio in general or Cleveland in particular (though I did have some fine ol' times years ago in the late 70's when I used to play the Hannah Theatre there) - but - IIRC, Cleveland should not be used as an example of how to catch a river on fire, but, rather how to salvage a river from such a condition. -- John Gann /) 83°52'49"W (865)924-4203 O_/ 35°57'25"N _____(\/_____ ~~~~~~~~~~`~-~~-/-~~-'~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ / ~~~~ ~~~~ ~ |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
Some say the Estivant Pines were never logged. Some say the Sylvania
Tract might be close to wilderness. Bill Tuthill wrote: In rec.boats.paddle stone wrote: The point of all this is that the wilderness in the lower 48 is gone... long gone. Doesn't northern Michigan (the peninsula) still have wilderness? There are many wilderness areas left in California, some of them officially designated, some not. Areas in the N California mountains, outside the Sierra, generally have less airplane traffic overhead. -- "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." --Dr. Hunter S. Thompson |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
Good points made by all and certainly good discussion!
My argument is that true wilderness, somewhere without the footprint of man, essentially does not exist in the lower 48.....I am sure there are some exceptions but they are rare and out in the north west. No amount of bitching and moaning or legislation will ever restore it. If you want a true wilderness experience therefore it is not going to happen in the lower 48. If you want to wander around in the woods and stumble across a transplanted moose or two, or even see a native wolf or bear, it is very possible and in the UP at least, fairly easy to do so. We regularly have moose and bear in town (3 times a year +/-) plus damn deer all over the place....I live on the edge of town but not on the extreme edge and they are in the yard every day.... There are places the damn four wheelers and dirt bikers do not get to and driving your kayak on the Superior coast isn't wilderness but to a degree it does approach it....depending on where you are. But there are those jets....we are on a air route and seeing the contrails from high flying jets is common.....and from a purist sense, that certainly destroys a "wilderness" experience....... Keeping selected areas pure (relatively) and free of development is important. We don't need concrete everywhere but so is a sustainable economic base which means jobs etc...so it all comes to a balance...... We have an interesting problem brewing in Marquette County. The Kennecott Copper Co. is exploring the potential for a nickel mine in the county on the Yellow Dog Plains. Remember this is exploring only, to determine if the deposits are sufficient in size etc, costs of development etc...No permit applications have been made to the state. No EIS started, just a real early exploration. Already the extreme environmentalists are organizing to oppose the company! They held one meeting to fire up the public to the danger and refused to have a Kennecut representative there! I do not know whether the mine is a good idea or not. We do have a long history of iron and gold mining and the operators have by and large, been excellent corporate citizens plus providing a stable economic base. But I will not make up my mind without additional data. The extreme environmentalists however do not need information....just the very idea of development is evil to them. And that is where the danger lies. When they take extreme positions like that it really poisons the well as to dialog and understanding. We will see how it all plays out. The Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore is also going thru a fight. The park wants to designate more wilderness areas and the local people do not, feeling they have enough already. It is so bad the City of Munising (gateway to the park) and Alger County officially passed resolutions against the park. I have never heard of such strong hostility by local government to the NPS. I suspect the park is being pushed (lead?) into the wilderness fight by the strong lobbying effort of the environmental extremists from downstate and elsewhere, at least that is what I am hearing from the locals. Lots of issues here but taking extreme positions is never the answer..... "Mary Malmros" wrote in message ... (Oci-One Kanubi) writes: "stone" typed: The point of all this is that the wilderness in the lower 48 is gone....long gone. If you want a "wilderness experience" go to Alaska or get Disney to make you for you. Man, I am sooooo tired of listening to you elitists telling me that if I cannot afford to go to Alaska I must do without, or accept a mass-market commercial imitation. Not sure it's elitist, but it is a rather strict definition of "wilderness". Who's humpty-dumptying the definition? It doesn't really matter -- just be aware that in this conversation, there are at least two widely divergent definitions of "wilderness" being used. -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
Doesn't northern Michigan (the peninsula) still have wilderness?
Walt is very right... Michigan has been logged. There are small stands of virgin old growth that exist sporadically throughout Michigan (unfortunatly many are more tourist traps than wilderness experience) I'm an avid paddler of both the Pine and the Manistee. I paddle the Pine river numerous times every year, including an annual New Years Day paddle. That said, the Pine and Manistee are located mainly within the Huron Manistee National Forest. For the most part, the shores of the rivers are undeveloped, and while they are not unscarred by the actions of humans, they are beautiful and support natural habitat for a variety of native plant and animal species. I am one of those people who recreate on these rivers to gane some measure of sanity from the live I live on a daily basis. And these rivers have a worth to me. Currently as stated by others the Stronach Dam is being removed from the lower Pine. The dam has been being removed for about 5 years now, as the dam is no longer generating enenrgy, and it precludes the natural migration of steelhead and salmon into th upper stretches of the Pine to breed. With the removal of this dam, the Pine will once again flow free along it's course... The Pine does flow into the Manistee which is dammed at Tippy Dam below where the Pine enters. But, the upper reaches of these rivers flow though some very attractive land which deserves to be preserved for future generations. Sure it's not virgin unraped wilderness, but it's wilderness nonetheless, and many Michiganders choose to enjoy this wilderness as it is. Many of the people here in Michigan also support the designation of the Pine and Manistee Rivers as wilderness waterways. We here in Michigan are experiencing the same issues with development pressures that everyone else is. We have essentially the same population in Michign today that we had 30 years ago, however, we have developed 5 million more acres of farmland and forest. Unfortunatly that trend will continue so long as we are closed to setting aside land for recreation and preservation of a semi-wilderness. So if you ever get up to Michigan... bring a nice river canoe and I'll take you on a tour of the Pine and the Manistee...and you will see how beautiful they are... especially in the throws of a snowy Michigan winter. PK |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
Mary Malmros wrote in message ...
Not sure it's elitist, but it is a rather strict definition of "wilderness". Who's humpty-dumptying the definition? It doesn't really matter -- just be aware that in this conversation, there are at least two widely divergent definitions of "wilderness" being used. There IS an established definition of wilderness. "A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain." The Wilderness Act If you are looking for "Pristine," then you are likely to be very disappointed. You should have been born millennia ago. On the other hand, if you are looking for places where "man himself is a visitor who does not remain" you can find that in most states. It also has a lot to do with your state of mind. I can find "wilderness" in many places that lack a pristine quality. It really does not bother me if I can see a contrail or if there is an established trail. Randy |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
John Gann wrote:
Walt wrote: [snip] Just because it's not perfect or pristine anymore is no excuse for letting it go completely to hell. The idea is to preserve what's left. If you want a river that's so polluted that it catches on fire, go to Cleveland. I've never been much of a fan of Ohio in general or Cleveland in particular (though I did have some fine ol' times years ago in the late 70's when I used to play the Hannah Theatre there) - but - IIRC, Cleveland should not be used as an example of how to catch a river on fire, but, rather how to salvage a river from such a condition. Exactly. Conservation/preservation/restoration works, or can work if you give it a chance. I was hoping a field trip to the Cuyahoga might drive that point home. -- //-Walt // // |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
In article ,
"stone" wrote: The extreme environmentalists however do not need information....just the very idea of development is evil to them. And that is where the danger lies. When they take extreme positions like that it really poisons the well as to dialog and understanding. We will see how it all plays out. You're taking a reasonable position, Stone, and that's commendable. I've had the feeling lately that the country as a whole is getting more polarized, and wonder if that's because we seldom actually sit and talk to people we disagree with. Dave |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
In article ,
"stone" wrote: The Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore is also going thru a fight. The park wants to designate more wilderness areas and the local people do not, feeling they have enough already. It is so bad the City of Munising (gateway to the park) and Alger County officially passed resolutions against the park. I have never heard of such strong hostility by local government to the NPS. I suspect the park is being pushed (lead?) into the wilderness fight by the strong lobbying effort of the environmental extremists from downstate and elsewhere, at least that is what I am hearing from the locals. Lots of issues here but taking extreme positions is never the answer..... Haven't been to PRNL for several years but used to camp there (Hurricane River) when the kids were small. It is a beautiful area. Twelve Mile Beach is extraordinary. I would hate to see it developed or overrun. Dave |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
"stone" writes:
Good points made by all and certainly good discussion! My argument is that true wilderness, somewhere without the footprint of man, essentially does not exist in the lower 48.....I am sure there are some exceptions but they are rare and out in the north west. No amount of bitching and moaning or legislation will ever restore it. If you want a true wilderness experience therefore it is not going to happen in the lower 48. If you define "true wilderness" as "somewhere without the footprint of man", the only way that anyone can have a "true wilderness experience" is by destroying the wilderness. Or maybe you could just cut off your feet before you go there...or only women could go...any other suggestions? -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
Hi Folks,
This is a canard to justify digging a huge hole in the ground using about 20 people, if one reads the rest of his post. Anyone that has ever tried to stop a mining project knows that once you're past exploration, it's damn hard to stop these things. Plus, copper is an overabundant natural resource. What's the point in wiping out yet another place to provide something that there are literal tons of anyway? The 'no true wilderness' argument is the old translated 'virginity' argument, unfortunately applied to the land-- if it's violated, then we don't need to do much to protect anything. Yuck. Chuck http://www.wildcountry.info in article , stone at wrote on 10/1/03 8:14 PM: My argument is that true wilderness, somewhere without the footprint of man, essentially does not exist in the lower 48.....I am sure there are some exceptions but they are rare and out in the north west. No amount of bitching and moaning or legislation will ever restore it. |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
The Pine River passes right by the old Michigan Chemical Corporation
site. In 1973, MCC accidentally put a fire retardant, polybiphenyl bromide, into cattle feed. Inducing this nasty halogen-based chemical caused food contamination, a national scandal, and a bad Ron Howard movie. The entire site was razed and is currently capped off and surrounded by security fence. Lower Michigan rivers are full of industrial crap like this. "Paul J. Knoerr" wrote: Doesn't northern Michigan (the peninsula) still have wilderness? Walt is very right... Michigan has been logged. There are small stands of virgin old growth that exist sporadically throughout Michigan (unfortunatly many are more tourist traps than wilderness experience) I'm an avid paddler of both the Pine and the Manistee. I paddle the Pine river numerous times every year, including an annual New Years Day paddle. That said, the Pine and Manistee are located mainly within the Huron Manistee National Forest. For the most part, the shores of the rivers are undeveloped, and while they are not unscarred by the actions of humans, they are beautiful and support natural habitat for a variety of native plant and animal species. I am one of those people who recreate on these rivers to gane some measure of sanity from the live I live on a daily basis. And these rivers have a worth to me. Currently as stated by others the Stronach Dam is being removed from the lower Pine. The dam has been being removed for about 5 years now, as the dam is no longer generating enenrgy, and it precludes the natural migration of steelhead and salmon into th upper stretches of the Pine to breed. With the removal of this dam, the Pine will once again flow free along it's course... The Pine does flow into the Manistee which is dammed at Tippy Dam below where the Pine enters. But, the upper reaches of these rivers flow though some very attractive land which deserves to be preserved for future generations. Sure it's not virgin unraped wilderness, but it's wilderness nonetheless, and many Michiganders choose to enjoy this wilderness as it is. Many of the people here in Michigan also support the designation of the Pine and Manistee Rivers as wilderness waterways. We here in Michigan are experiencing the same issues with development pressures that everyone else is. We have essentially the same population in Michign today that we had 30 years ago, however, we have developed 5 million more acres of farmland and forest. Unfortunatly that trend will continue so long as we are closed to setting aside land for recreation and preservation of a semi-wilderness. So if you ever get up to Michigan... bring a nice river canoe and I'll take you on a tour of the Pine and the Manistee...and you will see how beautiful they are... especially in the throws of a snowy Michigan winter. PK -- "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." --Dr. Hunter S. Thompson |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
Pictured Rocks won't be overrun. Most Americans don't want a vacation
that involves: 1) going off the Interstate, or 2) walking. Besides, neither Grand Marais nor Munising have a McDonald's. Facts: Alger County has no stoplights. Luce County has one, but it's over by Newberry. The Interstate is way over by the Soo. Pictured Rocks is pretty well off the beaten path. I'd guess that Yosemite or Yellowstone get as much traffic in a day as Pictured Rocks gets in a season. So, is there color around Miner's Castle yet? Dave Moorman wrote: In article , "stone" wrote: The Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore is also going thru a fight. The park wants to designate more wilderness areas and the local people do not, feeling they have enough already. It is so bad the City of Munising (gateway to the park) and Alger County officially passed resolutions against the park. I have never heard of such strong hostility by local government to the NPS. I suspect the park is being pushed (lead?) into the wilderness fight by the strong lobbying effort of the environmental extremists from downstate and elsewhere, at least that is what I am hearing from the locals. Lots of issues here but taking extreme positions is never the answer..... Haven't been to PRNL for several years but used to camp there (Hurricane River) when the kids were small. It is a beautiful area. Twelve Mile Beach is extraordinary. I would hate to see it developed or overrun. Dave -- "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." --Dr. Hunter S. Thompson |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
You are a reasonable man and there are few of them around.
"Randy Hodges" wrote in message om... Mary Malmros wrote in message ... Not sure it's elitist, but it is a rather strict definition of "wilderness". Who's humpty-dumptying the definition? It doesn't really matter -- just be aware that in this conversation, there are at least two widely divergent definitions of "wilderness" being used. There IS an established definition of wilderness. "A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain." The Wilderness Act If you are looking for "Pristine," then you are likely to be very disappointed. You should have been born millennia ago. On the other hand, if you are looking for places where "man himself is a visitor who does not remain" you can find that in most states. It also has a lot to do with your state of mind. I can find "wilderness" in many places that lack a pristine quality. It really does not bother me if I can see a contrail or if there is an established trail. Randy |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
Color is running a bit late....turning nicely now however.....some snow
helped. "Eric Simandl" wrote in message ... Pictured Rocks won't be overrun. Most Americans don't want a vacation that involves: 1) going off the Interstate, or 2) walking. Besides, neither Grand Marais nor Munising have a McDonald's. Facts: Alger County has no stoplights. Luce County has one, but it's over by Newberry. The Interstate is way over by the Soo. Pictured Rocks is pretty well off the beaten path. I'd guess that Yosemite or Yellowstone get as much traffic in a day as Pictured Rocks gets in a season. So, is there color around Miner's Castle yet? Dave Moorman wrote: In article , "stone" wrote: The Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore is also going thru a fight. The park wants to designate more wilderness areas and the local people do not, feeling they have enough already. It is so bad the City of Munising (gateway to the park) and Alger County officially passed resolutions against the park. I have never heard of such strong hostility by local government to the NPS. I suspect the park is being pushed (lead?) into the wilderness fight by the strong lobbying effort of the environmental extremists from downstate and elsewhere, at least that is what I am hearing from the locals. Lots of issues here but taking extreme positions is never the answer..... Haven't been to PRNL for several years but used to camp there (Hurricane River) when the kids were small. It is a beautiful area. Twelve Mile Beach is extraordinary. I would hate to see it developed or overrun. Dave -- "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." --Dr. Hunter S. Thompson |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
The Pine River passes right by the old Michigan Chemical Corporation
site. Yep, you are right... except that the Pine River you are discussing is different than the Pine River that was designated as a wilderness river. The River you discuss flows east into the Titabawassee west of Midland. The Pine River that is being protected flows west into the Manistee about 120 miles northwest of there. Come on up and paddle the Pine River... You'll be very surprised as to how much wilderness there is on the West side of the State.. PK |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
Eric Simandl
I think you're talking about the other Pine River in the Lower Peninsula...over towards Mt. Pleasant... MB |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
In article ,
Charles Pezeshki wrote: Plus, copper is an overabundant natural resource. Wasn't it nickel? Dave |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
In article ,
Eric Simandl wrote: Pictured Rocks won't be overrun. Most Americans don't want a vacation that involves: 1) going off the Interstate, or 2) walking. Besides, neither Grand Marais nor Munising have a McDonald's. Facts: Alger County has no stoplights. Luce County has one, but it's over by Newberry. The Interstate is way over by the Soo. Pictured Rocks is pretty well off the beaten path. I'd guess that Yosemite or Yellowstone get as much traffic in a day as Pictured Rocks gets in a season. That's good news. I'd rather drive the sand roads of Alger County than an Interstate any day! Dave |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
HI Dave,
Yes it was-- I realized this after I posted (Kennecott Copper wanting to put in a nickel mine), but the point is still the same. Chuck in article , Dave Moorman at wrote on 10/3/03 6:14 PM: In article , Charles Pezeshki wrote: Plus, copper is an overabundant natural resource. Wasn't it nickel? Dave |
Natural Rivers (or not) - Pine, Upper manistee
The Pine River is down below; not up.
The west side of the state includes Menominee, Iron River, Ontonagon, Houghton, Crystal Falls, Watersmeet, the Porkies, etc. The rivers are clean. "Paul J. Knoerr" wrote: Come on up and paddle the Pine River... You'll be very surprised as to how much wilderness there is on the West side of the State.. PK -- "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." --Dr. Hunter S. Thompson |
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