Good points made by all and certainly good discussion!

My argument is that true wilderness, somewhere without the footprint of man,
essentially does not exist in the lower 48.....I am sure there are some
exceptions but they are rare and out in the north west. No amount of
bitching and moaning or legislation will ever restore it.

If you want a true wilderness experience therefore it is not going to happen
in the lower 48.

If you want to wander around in the woods and stumble across a transplanted
moose or two, or even see a native wolf or bear, it is very possible and in
the UP at least, fairly easy to do so. We regularly have moose and bear in
town (3 times a year +/-) plus damn deer all over the place....I live on the
edge of town but not on the extreme edge and they are in the yard every
day.... There are places the damn four wheelers and dirt bikers do not get
to and driving your kayak on the Superior coast isn't wilderness but to a
degree it does approach it....depending on where you are.

But there are those jets....we are on a air route and seeing the contrails
from high flying jets is common.....and from a purist sense, that certainly
destroys a "wilderness" experience.......

Keeping selected areas pure (relatively) and free of development is
important. We don't need concrete everywhere but so is a sustainable
economic base which means jobs etc...so it all comes to a balance......

We have an interesting problem brewing in Marquette County. The Kennecott
Copper Co. is exploring the potential for a nickel mine in the county on the
Yellow Dog Plains. Remember this is exploring only, to determine if the
deposits are sufficient in size etc, costs of development etc...No permit
applications have been made to the state. No EIS started, just a real early
exploration. Already the extreme environmentalists are organizing to oppose
the company! They held one meeting to fire up the public to the danger and
refused to have a Kennecut representative there! I do not know whether the
mine is a good idea or not. We do have a long history of iron and gold
mining and the operators have by and large, been excellent corporate
citizens plus providing a stable economic base. But I will not make up my
mind without additional data. The extreme environmentalists however do not
need information....just the very idea of development is evil to them. And
that is where the danger lies. When they take extreme positions like that it
really poisons the well as to dialog and understanding. We will see how it
all plays out.


The Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore is also going thru a fight. The park
wants to designate more wilderness areas and the local people do not,
feeling they have enough already. It is so bad the City of Munising (gateway
to the park) and Alger County officially passed resolutions against the
park. I have never heard of such strong hostility by local government to the
NPS.
I suspect the park is being pushed (lead?) into the wilderness fight by the
strong lobbying effort of the environmental extremists from downstate and
elsewhere, at least that is what I am hearing from the locals.

Lots of issues here but taking extreme positions is never the answer.....


"Mary Malmros" wrote in message
...
(Oci-One Kanubi) writes:

"stone" typed:

The point of all this is that the wilderness in the lower 48 is
gone....long
gone. If you want a "wilderness experience" go to Alaska or get Disney
to
make you for you.

Man, I am sooooo tired of listening to you elitists telling me that if
I cannot afford to go to Alaska I must do without, or accept a
mass-market commercial imitation.

Not sure it's elitist, but it is a rather strict definition of
"wilderness". Who's humpty-dumptying the definition? It doesn't
really matter -- just be aware that in this conversation, there are
at least two widely divergent definitions of "wilderness" being
used.

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Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.