"stone" typed:

The point of all this is that the wilderness in the lower 48 is gone....long
gone. If you want a "wilderness experience" go to Alaska or get Disney to
make you for you.

Man, I am sooooo tired of listening to you elitists telling me that if
I cannot afford to go to Alaska I must do without, or accept a
mass-market commercial imitation.

You can't bring it back....areas logged over three times
ain't wilderness......and will not ever be so again.....

Actually, that's patently false. All depends upon the time-scale you
apply. But I repeat: absolute, pristine wilderness is not necessary
to fulfill the spiritual/emotional needs of most Americans (look at
Europeans, who have "recreating" themselves by shelter-hiking the
Alps, for centuries). An undeveloped, un-clearcut wood, with some
renmaining natural fauna, is quite enriching for many people, even if
there are blazed trails and -- omigosh -- huts and footbridges along
the way. And even if it was a clear-cut site or a strip-mine several
decades earlier.

and don't dare to
tell me that because I live in a relatively "undeveloped" area I have to
stop my ecomonic developement so you can wander around in the "woods."

No, I don't think I want to tell you that, unconditionally. But I
would certainly support regulation of the forms of development that
you would be allowed to choose. This is a fairly well-established
principle, where, for example, zoning boards across the country will
not allow businesses to be established in the middle of a residential
neighborhood, or industry to be established in a commercial
neighborhood. It's just a matter of scale, and on a large scale, the
United States is my neighborhood and I don't care to see destructive
industries in that neighborhood -- even if it's yer backyard being
trashed, not mine.

You evidently live in NC....which is a wonderful state with many great
places....but don't stick your nose in our Michigan and tell us how to live
our lives....

Sorry, mister, but yer Michigan is part of my United States, and I am
interested in keeping my United States a beautiful place to live. If
despoilation is how you want to live yer life, I'll tell you yer
wrong, and I'll vote for Federal regulations to force you to change.
And if yer state legislature allows you to trash yer state, then yer
state won't get any of my tourist dollars.

nuff said....

Yer not kidding. Too much said, with not enough thought.


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll.
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu 1-336-713-5077
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters.
================================================== ====================

(Oci-One Kanubi) writes:

"stone" typed:

The point of all this is that the wilderness in the lower 48 is gone....long
gone. If you want a "wilderness experience" go to Alaska or get Disney to
make you for you.

Man, I am sooooo tired of listening to you elitists telling me that if
I cannot afford to go to Alaska I must do without, or accept a
mass-market commercial imitation.

Not sure it's elitist, but it is a rather strict definition of
"wilderness". Who's humpty-dumptying the definition? It doesn't
really matter -- just be aware that in this conversation, there are
at least two widely divergent definitions of "wilderness" being
used.

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

Good points made by all and certainly good discussion!

My argument is that true wilderness, somewhere without the footprint of man,
essentially does not exist in the lower 48.....I am sure there are some
exceptions but they are rare and out in the north west. No amount of
bitching and moaning or legislation will ever restore it.

If you want a true wilderness experience therefore it is not going to happen
in the lower 48.

If you want to wander around in the woods and stumble across a transplanted
moose or two, or even see a native wolf or bear, it is very possible and in
the UP at least, fairly easy to do so. We regularly have moose and bear in
town (3 times a year +/-) plus damn deer all over the place....I live on the
edge of town but not on the extreme edge and they are in the yard every
day.... There are places the damn four wheelers and dirt bikers do not get
to and driving your kayak on the Superior coast isn't wilderness but to a
degree it does approach it....depending on where you are.

But there are those jets....we are on a air route and seeing the contrails
from high flying jets is common.....and from a purist sense, that certainly
destroys a "wilderness" experience.......

Keeping selected areas pure (relatively) and free of development is
important. We don't need concrete everywhere but so is a sustainable
economic base which means jobs etc...so it all comes to a balance......

We have an interesting problem brewing in Marquette County. The Kennecott
Copper Co. is exploring the potential for a nickel mine in the county on the
Yellow Dog Plains. Remember this is exploring only, to determine if the
deposits are sufficient in size etc, costs of development etc...No permit
applications have been made to the state. No EIS started, just a real early
exploration. Already the extreme environmentalists are organizing to oppose
the company! They held one meeting to fire up the public to the danger and
refused to have a Kennecut representative there! I do not know whether the
mine is a good idea or not. We do have a long history of iron and gold
mining and the operators have by and large, been excellent corporate
citizens plus providing a stable economic base. But I will not make up my
mind without additional data. The extreme environmentalists however do not
need information....just the very idea of development is evil to them. And
that is where the danger lies. When they take extreme positions like that it
really poisons the well as to dialog and understanding. We will see how it
all plays out.


The Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore is also going thru a fight. The park
wants to designate more wilderness areas and the local people do not,
feeling they have enough already. It is so bad the City of Munising (gateway
to the park) and Alger County officially passed resolutions against the
park. I have never heard of such strong hostility by local government to the
NPS.
I suspect the park is being pushed (lead?) into the wilderness fight by the
strong lobbying effort of the environmental extremists from downstate and
elsewhere, at least that is what I am hearing from the locals.

Lots of issues here but taking extreme positions is never the answer.....


"Mary Malmros" wrote in message
...
(Oci-One Kanubi) writes:

"stone" typed:

The point of all this is that the wilderness in the lower 48 is
gone....long
gone. If you want a "wilderness experience" go to Alaska or get Disney
to
make you for you.

Man, I am sooooo tired of listening to you elitists telling me that if
I cannot afford to go to Alaska I must do without, or accept a
mass-market commercial imitation.

Not sure it's elitist, but it is a rather strict definition of
"wilderness". Who's humpty-dumptying the definition? It doesn't
really matter -- just be aware that in this conversation, there are
at least two widely divergent definitions of "wilderness" being
used.

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

In article ,
"stone" wrote:

The extreme environmentalists however do not
need information....just the very idea of development is evil to them. And
that is where the danger lies. When they take extreme positions like that it
really poisons the well as to dialog and understanding. We will see how it
all plays out.

You're taking a reasonable position, Stone, and that's commendable.
I've had the feeling lately that the country as a whole is getting more
polarized, and wonder if that's because we seldom actually sit and talk
to people we disagree with.

Dave

In article ,
"stone" wrote:

The Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore is also going thru a fight. The park
wants to designate more wilderness areas and the local people do not,
feeling they have enough already. It is so bad the City of Munising (gateway
to the park) and Alger County officially passed resolutions against the
park. I have never heard of such strong hostility by local government to the
NPS.
I suspect the park is being pushed (lead?) into the wilderness fight by the
strong lobbying effort of the environmental extremists from downstate and
elsewhere, at least that is what I am hearing from the locals.

Lots of issues here but taking extreme positions is never the answer.....

Haven't been to PRNL for several years but used to camp there (Hurricane
River) when the kids were small. It is a beautiful area. Twelve Mile
Beach is extraordinary. I would hate to see it developed or overrun.

Dave

Pictured Rocks won't be overrun. Most Americans don't want a vacation
that involves:

1) going off the Interstate, or

2) walking.

Besides, neither Grand Marais nor Munising have a McDonald's.

Facts: Alger County has no stoplights. Luce County has one, but it's
over by Newberry. The Interstate is way over by the Soo.

Pictured Rocks is pretty well off the beaten path. I'd guess that
Yosemite or Yellowstone get as much traffic in a day as Pictured Rocks
gets in a season.

So, is there color around Miner's Castle yet?

Dave Moorman wrote:

In article ,
"stone" wrote:

The Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore is also going thru a fight. The park
wants to designate more wilderness areas and the local people do not,
feeling they have enough already. It is so bad the City of Munising (gateway
to the park) and Alger County officially passed resolutions against the
park. I have never heard of such strong hostility by local government to the
NPS.
I suspect the park is being pushed (lead?) into the wilderness fight by the
strong lobbying effort of the environmental extremists from downstate and
elsewhere, at least that is what I am hearing from the locals.

Lots of issues here but taking extreme positions is never the answer.....

Haven't been to PRNL for several years but used to camp there (Hurricane
River) when the kids were small. It is a beautiful area. Twelve Mile
Beach is extraordinary. I would hate to see it developed or overrun.

Dave

--
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
--Dr. Hunter S. Thompson

Color is running a bit late....turning nicely now however.....some snow
helped.


"Eric Simandl" wrote in message
...
Pictured Rocks won't be overrun. Most Americans don't want a vacation
that involves:

1) going off the Interstate, or

2) walking.

Besides, neither Grand Marais nor Munising have a McDonald's.

Facts: Alger County has no stoplights. Luce County has one, but it's
over by Newberry. The Interstate is way over by the Soo.

Pictured Rocks is pretty well off the beaten path. I'd guess that
Yosemite or Yellowstone get as much traffic in a day as Pictured Rocks
gets in a season.

So, is there color around Miner's Castle yet?

Dave Moorman wrote:

In article ,
"stone" wrote:

The Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore is also going thru a fight. The
park
wants to designate more wilderness areas and the local people do not,
feeling they have enough already. It is so bad the City of Munising
(gateway
to the park) and Alger County officially passed resolutions against
the
park. I have never heard of such strong hostility by local government
to the
NPS.
I suspect the park is being pushed (lead?) into the wilderness fight
by the
strong lobbying effort of the environmental extremists from downstate
and
elsewhere, at least that is what I am hearing from the locals.

Lots of issues here but taking extreme positions is never the
answer.....

Haven't been to PRNL for several years but used to camp there (Hurricane
River) when the kids were small. It is a beautiful area. Twelve Mile
Beach is extraordinary. I would hate to see it developed or overrun.

Dave

--
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
--Dr. Hunter S. Thompson

In article ,
Eric Simandl wrote:

Pictured Rocks won't be overrun. Most Americans don't want a vacation
that involves:

1) going off the Interstate, or

2) walking.

Besides, neither Grand Marais nor Munising have a McDonald's.

Facts: Alger County has no stoplights. Luce County has one, but it's
over by Newberry. The Interstate is way over by the Soo.

Pictured Rocks is pretty well off the beaten path. I'd guess that
Yosemite or Yellowstone get as much traffic in a day as Pictured Rocks
gets in a season.

That's good news. I'd rather drive the sand roads of Alger County than
an Interstate any day!

Dave

"stone" writes:

Good points made by all and certainly good discussion!

My argument is that true wilderness, somewhere without the footprint of man,
essentially does not exist in the lower 48.....I am sure there are some
exceptions but they are rare and out in the north west. No amount of
bitching and moaning or legislation will ever restore it.

If you want a true wilderness experience therefore it is not going to happen
in the lower 48.

If you define "true wilderness" as "somewhere without the footprint
of man", the only way that anyone can have a "true wilderness
experience" is by destroying the wilderness.

Or maybe you could just cut off your feet before you go there...or
only women could go...any other suggestions?

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

Hi Folks,

This is a canard to justify digging a huge hole in the ground using about 20
people, if one reads the rest of his post. Anyone that has ever tried to
stop a mining project knows that once you're past exploration, it's damn
hard to stop these things. Plus, copper is an overabundant natural
resource. What's the point in wiping out yet another place to provide
something that there are literal tons of anyway?

The 'no true wilderness' argument is the old translated 'virginity'
argument, unfortunately applied to the land-- if it's violated, then we
don't need to do much to protect anything.

Yuck.

Chuck

http://www.wildcountry.info

in article , stone at
wrote on 10/1/03 8:14 PM:

My argument is that true wilderness, somewhere without the footprint of man,
essentially does not exist in the lower 48.....I am sure there are some
exceptions but they are rare and out in the north west. No amount of
bitching and moaning or legislation will ever restore it.