(Oci-One Kanubi) writes:

"stone" typed:

The point of all this is that the wilderness in the lower 48 is gone....long
gone. If you want a "wilderness experience" go to Alaska or get Disney to
make you for you.

Man, I am sooooo tired of listening to you elitists telling me that if
I cannot afford to go to Alaska I must do without, or accept a
mass-market commercial imitation.

Not sure it's elitist, but it is a rather strict definition of
"wilderness". Who's humpty-dumptying the definition? It doesn't
really matter -- just be aware that in this conversation, there are
at least two widely divergent definitions of "wilderness" being
used.

--
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Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

Some say the Estivant Pines were never logged. Some say the Sylvania
Tract might be close to wilderness.

Bill Tuthill wrote:

In rec.boats.paddle stone wrote:

The point of all this is that the wilderness in the lower 48 is gone...
long gone.

Doesn't northern Michigan (the peninsula) still have wilderness?

There are many wilderness areas left in California, some of them
officially designated, some not. Areas in the N California mountains,
outside the Sierra, generally have less airplane traffic overhead.

--
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
--Dr. Hunter S. Thompson

Good points made by all and certainly good discussion!

My argument is that true wilderness, somewhere without the footprint of man,
essentially does not exist in the lower 48.....I am sure there are some
exceptions but they are rare and out in the north west. No amount of
bitching and moaning or legislation will ever restore it.

If you want a true wilderness experience therefore it is not going to happen
in the lower 48.

If you want to wander around in the woods and stumble across a transplanted
moose or two, or even see a native wolf or bear, it is very possible and in
the UP at least, fairly easy to do so. We regularly have moose and bear in
town (3 times a year +/-) plus damn deer all over the place....I live on the
edge of town but not on the extreme edge and they are in the yard every
day.... There are places the damn four wheelers and dirt bikers do not get
to and driving your kayak on the Superior coast isn't wilderness but to a
degree it does approach it....depending on where you are.

But there are those jets....we are on a air route and seeing the contrails
from high flying jets is common.....and from a purist sense, that certainly
destroys a "wilderness" experience.......

Keeping selected areas pure (relatively) and free of development is
important. We don't need concrete everywhere but so is a sustainable
economic base which means jobs etc...so it all comes to a balance......

We have an interesting problem brewing in Marquette County. The Kennecott
Copper Co. is exploring the potential for a nickel mine in the county on the
Yellow Dog Plains. Remember this is exploring only, to determine if the
deposits are sufficient in size etc, costs of development etc...No permit
applications have been made to the state. No EIS started, just a real early
exploration. Already the extreme environmentalists are organizing to oppose
the company! They held one meeting to fire up the public to the danger and
refused to have a Kennecut representative there! I do not know whether the
mine is a good idea or not. We do have a long history of iron and gold
mining and the operators have by and large, been excellent corporate
citizens plus providing a stable economic base. But I will not make up my
mind without additional data. The extreme environmentalists however do not
need information....just the very idea of development is evil to them. And
that is where the danger lies. When they take extreme positions like that it
really poisons the well as to dialog and understanding. We will see how it
all plays out.


The Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore is also going thru a fight. The park
wants to designate more wilderness areas and the local people do not,
feeling they have enough already. It is so bad the City of Munising (gateway
to the park) and Alger County officially passed resolutions against the
park. I have never heard of such strong hostility by local government to the
NPS.
I suspect the park is being pushed (lead?) into the wilderness fight by the
strong lobbying effort of the environmental extremists from downstate and
elsewhere, at least that is what I am hearing from the locals.

Lots of issues here but taking extreme positions is never the answer.....


"Mary Malmros" wrote in message
...
(Oci-One Kanubi) writes:

"stone" typed:

The point of all this is that the wilderness in the lower 48 is
gone....long
gone. If you want a "wilderness experience" go to Alaska or get Disney
to
make you for you.

Man, I am sooooo tired of listening to you elitists telling me that if
I cannot afford to go to Alaska I must do without, or accept a
mass-market commercial imitation.

Not sure it's elitist, but it is a rather strict definition of
"wilderness". Who's humpty-dumptying the definition? It doesn't
really matter -- just be aware that in this conversation, there are
at least two widely divergent definitions of "wilderness" being
used.

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

Doesn't northern Michigan (the peninsula) still have wilderness?

Walt is very right... Michigan has been logged. There are small
stands of virgin old growth that exist sporadically throughout
Michigan (unfortunatly many are more tourist traps than wilderness
experience)

I'm an avid paddler of both the Pine and the Manistee. I paddle the
Pine river numerous times every year, including an annual New Years
Day paddle. That said, the Pine and Manistee are located mainly
within the Huron Manistee National Forest. For the most part, the
shores of the rivers are undeveloped, and while they are not unscarred
by the actions of humans, they are beautiful and support natural
habitat for a variety of native plant and animal species.

I am one of those people who recreate on these rivers to gane some
measure of sanity from the live I live on a daily basis. And these
rivers have a worth to me. Currently as stated by others the Stronach
Dam is being removed from the lower Pine. The dam has been being
removed for about 5 years now, as the dam is no longer generating
enenrgy, and it precludes the natural migration of steelhead and
salmon into th upper stretches of the Pine to breed. With the removal
of this dam, the Pine will once again flow free along it's course...
The Pine does flow into the Manistee which is dammed at Tippy Dam
below where the Pine enters.

But, the upper reaches of these rivers flow though some very
attractive land which deserves to be preserved for future generations.
Sure it's not virgin unraped wilderness, but it's wilderness
nonetheless, and many Michiganders choose to enjoy this wilderness as
it is. Many of the people here in Michigan also support the
designation of the Pine and Manistee Rivers as wilderness waterways.
We here in Michigan are experiencing the same issues with development
pressures that everyone else is. We have essentially the same
population in Michign today that we had 30 years ago, however, we have
developed 5 million more acres of farmland and forest. Unfortunatly
that trend will continue so long as we are closed to setting aside
land for recreation and preservation of a semi-wilderness.

So if you ever get up to Michigan... bring a nice river canoe and I'll
take you on a tour of the Pine and the Manistee...and you will see how
beautiful they are... especially in the throws of a snowy Michigan
winter.

PK

Mary Malmros wrote in message ...

Not sure it's elitist, but it is a rather strict definition of
"wilderness". Who's humpty-dumptying the definition? It doesn't
really matter -- just be aware that in this conversation, there are
at least two widely divergent definitions of "wilderness" being
used.

There IS an established definition of wilderness.

"A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own
works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where
the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man
himself is a visitor who does not remain."
The Wilderness Act

If you are looking for "Pristine," then you are likely to be very
disappointed. You should have been born millennia ago. On the other
hand, if you are looking for places where "man himself is a visitor
who does not remain" you can find that in most states.

It also has a lot to do with your state of mind. I can find
"wilderness" in many places that lack a pristine quality. It really
does not bother me if I can see a contrail or if there is an
established trail.

Randy

John Gann wrote:

Walt wrote:
[snip]
Just because it's not perfect or pristine anymore is no excuse for
letting it go completely to hell. The idea is to preserve what's left.
If you want a river that's so polluted that it catches on fire, go to
Cleveland.

I've never been much of a fan of Ohio in general or Cleveland in
particular (though I did have some fine ol' times years ago in the late
70's when I used to play the Hannah Theatre there) - but - IIRC,
Cleveland should not be used as an example of how to catch a river on
fire, but, rather how to salvage a river from such a condition.

Exactly.
Conservation/preservation/restoration works, or can work if you give it
a chance.

I was hoping a field trip to the Cuyahoga might drive that point home.

--
//-Walt
//
//

In article ,
"stone" wrote:

The extreme environmentalists however do not
need information....just the very idea of development is evil to them. And
that is where the danger lies. When they take extreme positions like that it
really poisons the well as to dialog and understanding. We will see how it
all plays out.

You're taking a reasonable position, Stone, and that's commendable.
I've had the feeling lately that the country as a whole is getting more
polarized, and wonder if that's because we seldom actually sit and talk
to people we disagree with.

Dave

In article ,
"stone" wrote:

The Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore is also going thru a fight. The park
wants to designate more wilderness areas and the local people do not,
feeling they have enough already. It is so bad the City of Munising (gateway
to the park) and Alger County officially passed resolutions against the
park. I have never heard of such strong hostility by local government to the
NPS.
I suspect the park is being pushed (lead?) into the wilderness fight by the
strong lobbying effort of the environmental extremists from downstate and
elsewhere, at least that is what I am hearing from the locals.

Lots of issues here but taking extreme positions is never the answer.....

Haven't been to PRNL for several years but used to camp there (Hurricane
River) when the kids were small. It is a beautiful area. Twelve Mile
Beach is extraordinary. I would hate to see it developed or overrun.

Dave

"stone" writes:

Good points made by all and certainly good discussion!

My argument is that true wilderness, somewhere without the footprint of man,
essentially does not exist in the lower 48.....I am sure there are some
exceptions but they are rare and out in the north west. No amount of
bitching and moaning or legislation will ever restore it.

If you want a true wilderness experience therefore it is not going to happen
in the lower 48.

If you define "true wilderness" as "somewhere without the footprint
of man", the only way that anyone can have a "true wilderness
experience" is by destroying the wilderness.

Or maybe you could just cut off your feet before you go there...or
only women could go...any other suggestions?

--
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Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

Hi Folks,

This is a canard to justify digging a huge hole in the ground using about 20
people, if one reads the rest of his post. Anyone that has ever tried to
stop a mining project knows that once you're past exploration, it's damn
hard to stop these things. Plus, copper is an overabundant natural
resource. What's the point in wiping out yet another place to provide
something that there are literal tons of anyway?

The 'no true wilderness' argument is the old translated 'virginity'
argument, unfortunately applied to the land-- if it's violated, then we
don't need to do much to protect anything.

Yuck.

Chuck

http://www.wildcountry.info

in article , stone at
wrote on 10/1/03 8:14 PM:

My argument is that true wilderness, somewhere without the footprint of man,
essentially does not exist in the lower 48.....I am sure there are some
exceptions but they are rare and out in the north west. No amount of
bitching and moaning or legislation will ever restore it.