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World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
I'm not gonna order anything I can't try first. I got a long haid; round-haid helmets don't fit me worth a damn...and, frankly, IME fit's a lot more important than all them fancy materials. -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
Gil Turner wrote: shamless self-promotion snipped This is apparently nothing but one man's crusade against Pro-Tec. I'm sorry his son was killed, but the fact that he chose a helmet that didn't fit his head properly doesn't make the product defective. I have one that stays on and in place just fine. As Mary points out, people's heads are shaped differently and no single helmet is going to fit everyone perfectly. Apparently, the two college kids who designed this new helmet didn't reseach that aspect very thoroughly. Billing this unavailable product as the "World's Safest Whitewater Helmet" is a bad joke, bordering on disingenuous. The psuedo-official sounding business name "Whitewater Research & Safety Institute, Inc." and the BS about issuing a "Voluntary Recall Demand" is even more misleading. If the product comes to market and it provides good protection for the people it fits, so much the better. However, this marketing strategy isn't fooling anyone and Mr. Turner would do well to consider a different approach. I truly hope Mr. Turner isn't going to become the Tim Ingram of helmets. -- Regards Brian Nystrom President, CEO and Grand Pubah The Institute for Exposing Personal Vendettas Disguised as Official Agencies |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
Gil Turner wrote:
Those who will come after him, down the twisting, thundering path of the whitewater will be able to rely on a helmet that will provide far greater protection in this extreme, dangerous, but rapidly growing sport. I'm sorry to hear about your son's death. That's an interesting motive for designing a safer white water helmet, one that I can only applaud. However, I do have some critical notes with this article... I'm not at all impresssed by claims to be the world's best or safest, but I am interested to hear how this claim is substantiated. Has this helmet been compared to other purpose designed white water helmets in comparatice tests? I also find several lines in this article misleading or just plainly wrong. For example, there were at that time (1998) and have been since several purpose designed white water helmets on the market, from a couple of brands all over the world. Granted, some are offering better protection than others, but that's not what the article seems to imply. On top of that I find the general tone of the article annoying. What exactly is so extreme and dangerous about this sport? There are already good products out on the market to protect yourself against blows to the head and body, from a number of companies. That said, there will always be a certain risk involved with paddling whitewater (or any water for that matter). -- Wilko van den Bergh Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations. http://wilko.webzone.ru/ |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
Brian Nystrom posted:
snip this marketing strategy isn't fooling anyone and Mr. Turner would do well to consider a different approach. I truly hope Mr. Turner isn't going to become the Tim Ingram of helmets. -- Regards Brian Nystrom President, CEO and Grand Pubah The Institute for Exposing Personal Vendettas Disguised as Official Agencies This may or may not be the worlds safest whitewater helmet, but any helmet that stays in place (which Protec does not), provides protection from impact (which Protec does not), and is designed for whitewater (which Protec is not) is welcome in the paddling community. Mr. Nystrom, I am totally disgusted by your jumping in to troll a thread of this kind. If you had a shred of self respect you would restrain yourself this one time. You would do well to seek professional help for your low self esteem. Get some therapy. Dennis |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
Paddlec1 wrote: Brian Nystrom posted: snip this marketing strategy isn't fooling anyone and Mr. Turner would do well to consider a different approach. I truly hope Mr. Turner isn't going to become the Tim Ingram of helmets. -- Regards Brian Nystrom President, CEO and Grand Pubah The Institute for Exposing Personal Vendettas Disguised as Official Agencies This may or may not be the worlds safest whitewater helmet, but any helmet that stays in place (which Protec does not), Nonsense. It may not fit your head, but it fits mine fine and apparently does so for others here, too. provides protection from impact (which Protec does not), More nonsense. It may not be the most protective helmet on the market, but mine has done the job for many years in several different activities (cycling, climbing, paddling). While it carries a fair number of external scars, the shell is intact and the padding is still resilient. and is designed for whitewater (which Protec is not) Well, you're three for three with the nonsense. The fact that the basic Protec helmet design is adaptable to many uses is a strength, not a vice. is welcome in the paddling community. Sure and I said as much. Mr. Nystrom, I am totally disgusted by your jumping in to troll a thread of this kind. Troll nothing. I call it as I see it and this is a pretty clear call. I truly hope that this turns out to be a useful product, but the marketing approach they've taken is blatantly misleading. If you can't see this, then order one and see what happens. whiney crap snipped Get a grip. -- Regards Brian |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
The best helmet would be one with a pair of sponsons....
Ed (ok, ok... I know. I just couldn't resist. grin ) |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
Charles Pezeshki wrote: Hi Brian, I knew the group that was paddling with Lucas, and was really saddened to hear about his death five years ago. He died in a rapid that is one of the biggest 'mainstream' Class Vs in the world, and one that I have always carried. It's unfortunate that you're insulting his dad. I'm not insulting anyone. For that matter, I'm not questioning his motives, either. What I am questioning is his approach. His words clearly express a personal vendetta against Protec. I can't say I fully understand his grief or claim that I would feel any differently were I in his position. However, I strongly object to his misleading claim of the "Worlds Safest Whitewater Helmet" and the attempt to pass off a business as some form of "official" safety agency. I've talked in the past about how whitewater helmets need to be improved, but though I do possess the technical ability to do such a project, I haven't. I'm glad to see Gil doing it. If his company ultimately produces a good product, I'm all for it. However, a good product deserves to be marketed honestly on it's merits, not by bitter attacks on a competing product. This kind of approach will ultimately backfire and could prevent his product from saving a life. I'm sure that's not Mr. Turner's intent. Looks to me from the pictures on the website that he's addressed major areas of concern that I have-- notably full protection for the base of the brain that's lacking on almost all of the current crop. Interesting. Research on helmets for other applications has shown that close fitting padding at the lower rear of a helmet causes an increase in broken necks when impacts that cause head rotation occur (ie., frontal impacts or glancing impacts to the top of the helmet...sound familiar?). That's why helmets for other applications are not made that way. A closer fit does not necessarily make a helmet safer. If the helmet itself causes or exacerbates injury, the users could be at greater risk than they would be with a design that seems less protective, but won't contribute to injuries. I really have to question whether designing a whitewater helmet that may actually make it to market is a suitable project for a couple of college kids. I'm getting the impression that they just haven't done all the necessary research. This sounds like a project that should be taken up with the assistance of Snell Labs and other organizations which have researched head injuries in-depth. Again, I'm not questioning their motivation, it just seems like they may have overlooked some critical details. -- Regards Brian |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
ospam (Larry Cable) writes:
(Paddlec1) Typed in Message-ID: This may or may not be the worlds safest whitewater helmet, but any helmet that stays in place (which Protec does not), provides protection from impact (which Protec does not), and is designed for whitewater (which Protec is not) is welcome in the paddling community. I have to agree with Brian on this one. While I'm not of the opinion that Protec is the ultimate in head protection, it works OK and has protected many a head from injury, including mine. Mine does fit and it has provided impact protection. Could it be better? Yes, of course it could. Well, Protec's been through a few changes. Current Protec helmets have a two-point strap attachment, but a few years back, that wasn't so. Anecdotally, it seems the change in the strap has made a real difference in how well the helmet stays in place -- and there are still a lot of one-strap Protecs out there. -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
Dave Manby wrote: OK I tried to avoid this one! Thanks for jumping in; your insight is appreciated. I am for my sins the chair of the BCU safety committee and several years ago the committee sent all the helmet on the market to the road research testing lab at Birmingham Uni. OK they usually test motor bike helmets. The guy from the research department came and presented his findings. The Protec helmet was in those days the best of a pretty poor bunch was his summary. In fact he refused to test one as they reckoned the lack of resistance would damage their machine! That's not terribly surprising, considering what they're used to testing. I guess it comes down to what level of protection one expects. If you want motorcycle level protection, you'll have to deal with the same weight and bulk. Realistically, what paddling helmets primarily protect against are cuts, abrasions and contusions. The shock absoption may also reduce concussions. However, they're not going to save someone from a severe impact. That's another gripe I have about Mr. Turner's claims; he presents no evidence that his son's accident was survivable had he been wearing a helmet that protected him better. It seems that a big assumption is being made. Couple of interesting points he made was the very real cocoon effect that wearing a helmet has. You are likely to try and paddle harder / drive faster because of this effect the helmet has. It seems that it's a "chicken or the egg" argument. Helmets are bought for protection during activities where head injury is possible. Would we engage in the activity without a helmet? I use mine primarily for playing in surf and rocks. All I expect of it is to keep me from bleeding and perhaps save me a lump on the head if I whack a rock inadvertently. However, with the forces involved with moving water, I know that it's not going to save my life if I do something stupid or get caught off-guard. And Brian if your helmet bears the scars of previous battles with rocks you should throw it away and buy a new one as it WILL not be as strong as it was. (No matter what it is made of) I appreciate your concern, but the damage is purely superficial. I've never taken any serious whacks with on the helmet. It's a multi impact helmet, anyway. If you crash your motor bike your helmet is toast but you may well not be toast because of it! That's the idea. Motorcycle helmets (and cycling helmets) are sacrificial items. One impact and the helmet is destroyed, but it has done it's job. In the trash it goes. This provides a relatively high level of protection for a given size and weight, but is it practical/acceptable for a sport where multiple impacts can reasonably be expected? I guess that would come down to a personal choice. -- Regards Brian |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
Brian Nystrom writ, in part:
I really have to question whether designing a whitewater helmet that may actually make it to market is a suitable project for a couple of college kids. I'm getting the impression that they just haven't done all the necessary research. This sounds like a project that should be taken up with the assistance of Snell Labs and other organizations which have researched head injuries in-depth. Again, I'm not questioning their motivation, it just seems like they may have overlooked some critical details. Brian, I believe you've hit the nail on the helmet. That was kinda what I thought when I saw their video a year or two ago. The video showed two grinning college kids and one test (taking a fire hose to a mounted helmet)...and, if memory serves, that was about it. Generally, the "World's Best" of a product is the result of a substantial effort. It can be a team of researchers with bunches of ideas, or just one with an antiparadigmatic insight. Butt under any circumstances, it would involve significant time, with extensive testing of all competitors' products under a variety of conditions. It's impossible--imPOSSible!!--to do that with two college kids, one semester, and a $50,000-dollar grant. If they were claiming "World's Best Handpaddles," I'd ignore it, because who cares? But this is a critical piece of safety equipment. Under these circumstances, with all due respect and sympathy for Mr. Turner's grief and his subsequent efforts, I agree with you that his approach is irresponsibly misguided. Riviera Ratt, PITA STILL Swimless in the 3rd Millennium! (almost) Click of the Week updated 8/12/03 For A Good Time, call http://www.americanwhitewater.org and http://members.aol.com/rivieraratt/ratthole.html |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
Amen to that.
Phat Ratty Ratt wrote: Brian Nystrom writ, in part: I really have to question whether designing a whitewater helmet that may actually make it to market is a suitable project for a couple of college kids. I'm getting the impression that they just haven't done all the necessary research. This sounds like a project that should be taken up with the assistance of Snell Labs and other organizations which have researched head injuries in-depth. Again, I'm not questioning their motivation, it just seems like they may have overlooked some critical details. Brian, I believe you've hit the nail on the helmet. That was kinda what I thought when I saw their video a year or two ago. The video showed two grinning college kids and one test (taking a fire hose to a mounted helmet)...and, if memory serves, that was about it. Generally, the "World's Best" of a product is the result of a substantial effort. It can be a team of researchers with bunches of ideas, or just one with an antiparadigmatic insight. Butt under any circumstances, it would involve significant time, with extensive testing of all competitors' products under a variety of conditions. It's impossible--imPOSSible!!--to do that with two college kids, one semester, and a $50,000-dollar grant. If they were claiming "World's Best Handpaddles," I'd ignore it, because who cares? But this is a critical piece of safety equipment. Under these circumstances, with all due respect and sympathy for Mr. Turner's grief and his subsequent efforts, I agree with you that his approach is irresponsibly misguided. Riviera Ratt, PITA STILL Swimless in the 3rd Millennium! (almost) Click of the Week updated 8/12/03 For A Good Time, call http://www.americanwhitewater.org and http://members.aol.com/rivieraratt/ratthole.html -- Regards Brian |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
In article
Brian Nystrom wrote: Gil Turner wrote: [quoted text muted] shamless self-promotion snipped This is apparently nothing but one man's crusade against Pro-Tec. I didn't see Pro-Tec mentioned. How could it be a "crusade" agasint them, if they aren't mentioned? I'm sorry his son was killed, but the fact that he chose a helmet that didn't fit his head properly doesn't make the product defective. I missed the analysis and evaluation that supports your statement that it didn't fit his head properly. Do you have support for the cause of the helmet movement being a fit issue? I have one that stays on and in place just fine. As Mary points out, people's heads are shaped differently and no single helmet is going to fit everyone perfectly. Yes, helmets come in various sizes for this reason and are generally adjustable in the straps and even internally. Apparently, the two college kids who designed this new helmet didn't reseach that aspect very thoroughly. That may be apparent to you, but you provide no support for that accusation either. Would you like the helmet better if the designers were 42 years old? Is Johns Hopkins University not up to your standards for such academic work? Billing this unavailable product as the "World's Safest Whitewater Helmet" is a bad joke, bordering on disingenuous. The psuedo-official sounding business name "Whitewater Research & Safety Institute, Inc." and the BS about issuing a "Voluntary Recall Demand" is even more misleading. How did it mislead you? If the product comes to market and it provides good protection for the people it fits, so much the better. However, this marketing strategy isn't fooling anyone and Mr. Turner would do well to consider a different approach. Which marketing strategy would that be? How would you advise them to market the helmet? I truly hope Mr. Turner isn't going to become the Tim Ingram of helmets. But we have you to save us from disingenuous rants, don't we? -- Regards Brian Nystrom President, CEO and Grand Pubah The Institute for Exposing Personal Vendettas Disguised as Official Agencies |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
Go to his web site and read it for yourself. While you're at it, read the rest
of the thread. Next time you "come late to the party" in a thread, you might want to try this before you make youself look foolish by asking questions that have aready been answered. lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote: a bunch of previously answered questions, snipped -- Regards Brian |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
In article
Brian Nystrom wrote: Go to his web site and read it for yourself. No need. While you're at it, read the rest of the thread. Next time you "come late to the party" in a thread, you might want to try this before you make youself look foolish by asking questions that have aready been answered. Possibly, you meant to say, "next time you come late to the jihad". Your tone conveys signs that you are quite overwrought about how someone else chooses his words, yet in your post on this matter you lack the delicacy you seem to demand of others. You can head for the river and settle down a bit. a bunch of previously answered questions, snipped I'll unsnip here and put them back. This is apparently nothing but one man's crusade against Pro-Tec. I didn't see Pro-Tec mentioned. How could it be a "crusade" agasint them, if they aren't mentioned? I'm sorry his son was killed, but the fact that he chose a helmet that didn't fit his head properly doesn't make the product defective. I missed the analysis and evaluation that supports your statement that it didn't fit his head properly. Do you have support for the cause of the helmet movement being a fit issue? I have one that stays on and in place just fine. As Mary points out, people's heads are shaped differently and no single helmet is going to fit everyone perfectly. Yes, helmets come in various sizes for this reason and are generally adjustable in the straps and even internally. Apparently, the two college kids who designed this new helmet didn't reseach that aspect very thoroughly. That may be apparent to you, but you provide no support for that accusation either. Would you like the helmet better if the designers were 42 years old? Is Johns Hopkins University not up to your standards for such academic work? Billing this unavailable product as the "World's Safest Whitewater Helmet" is a bad joke, bordering on disingenuous. The psuedo-official sounding business name "Whitewater Research & Safety Institute, Inc." and the BS about issuing a "Voluntary Recall Demand" is even more misleading. How did it mislead you? If the product comes to market and it provides good protection for the people it fits, so much the better. However, this marketing strategy isn't fooling anyone and Mr. Turner would do well to consider a different approach. Which marketing strategy would that be? How would you advise them to market the helmet? I truly hope Mr. Turner isn't going to become the Tim Ingram of helmets. But we have you to save us from disingenuous rants, don't we? -- Regards Brian |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
Wilko kayaker posted:
snip What exactly is so extreme and dangerous about this sport? snip Ever heard of Big Timber Creek (720 per mile gradiant)? Mesa Falls? The Turners have. Dennis |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
Wilko kayaker posted:
snipIt's one thing to come up with good paddling gear that can make the risk of injury less, it's another altogether to sensationalize a sport just to make your point. snip All perspective. What would you call it if one of your son's lost his life paddling 5++ Jacobs Ladder on the Payette (which by the way, he had paddled many times previously)? What would you call it if your other son and his friends were traveling the globe making first decents and filming it? Ever heard of Teton Gravity Research? Dennis |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
"Paddlec1" wrote in message ... All perspective. What would you call it if one of your son's lost his life paddling 5++ Jacobs Ladder on the Payette (which by the way, he had paddled many times previously)? What would you call it if your other son and his friends were traveling the globe making first decents and filming it? While I sympathize with the parents on their son's death, I have to question why a paddler with this much experience and paddling very hard runs like the ones mentioned above (by the way Jacobs Ladder isn't 5++) was wearing a Protec helmet. Anyone with any experience should know that there are other helmets on the market which are more suitable for expert kayaking. This is not to say that a Protec helmet isn't just fine for Class 3-4. Before making a choice to paddle expert runs boaters should educate themselves on the pros and cons of the gear they choose to wear. pete |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
Paddlec1 wrote:
Wilko posted: It's one thing to come up with good paddling gear that can make the risk of injury less, it's another altogether to sensationalize a sport just to make your point. snip All perspective. What would you call it if one of your son's lost his life paddling 5++ Jacobs Ladder on the Payette (which by the way, he had paddled many times previously)? What would you call it if your other son and his friends were traveling the globe making first decents and filming it? With all due respect for the man's loss Dennis, that message was worded in a questionable way. No matter how difficult the water was that his sons are/were paddling, to state that *all* white water paddling is extreme and dangerous is nonsense. That's what I'm having an issue with. Claiming things like the "worlds best" and so on is one thing, but I would expect that someone who makes such claims at least does enough research into the sport to know what they're talking about. From what I've read in his message posted here and on the web, he doesn't impress me with his knowledge about our sport. If he wants his product to have some effect on the safety of our sport, it sure helps to make sure who his target audience is, and how he can approach them and interest them in his product. IMNSHO this isn't the way. -- Wilko van den Bergh Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations. http://wilko.webzone.ru/ |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
peteg wrote:
snip Protec helmet. Anyone with any experience should know that there are other helmets on the market which are more suitable for expert kayaking. snip Are and were, two vastly different words. Yeah, just as today, there were better helmets available than the protec, but not many and not here. snip boaters should educate themselves on the pros and cons of the gear they choose to wear. pete Agreed. Dennis |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
Wilko kayaker posted:
snip No matter how difficult the water was that his sons are/were paddling, to state that *all* white water paddling is extreme and dangerous is nonsense. That's what I'm having an issue with. snip Here are his words: "Thanks to a young man whose last day on the river was the beginning of something of real value; a gift of greater safety to many he will never know. Those who will come after him, down the twisting, thundering path of the whitewater will be able to rely on a helmet that will provide far greater protection in this extreme, dangerous, but rapidly growing sport." I did not take that to mean that *all* whitewater is extreme. Regardless, I don't think the Turners know any other kind. snip From what I've read in his message posted here and on the web, he doesn't impress me with his knowledge about our sport. snip And why should he? He tells how he got into this and does not claim to be a big water boater, or a marketing guru. If he wants his product to have some effect on the safety of our sport, it sure helps to make sure who his target audience is, and how he can approach them and interest them in his product. IMNSHO this isn't the way. Give the guy a little credit. I don't know him, he may not even be a paddler. He makes one post here offering to sell what he believes to be a safe and reliable paddling helmet (at cost of production), and he gets trashed and his helmet gets roundly critisized (I'm not talking about you here Wilko). Quite the reception for a guy who is trying to make a positive contribution to the sport. Ever seen Nurpu? Dennis |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
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World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
Paddlec1 wrote: Wilko posted: "Thanks to a young man whose last day on the river was the beginning of something of real value; a gift of greater safety to many he will never know. Those who will come after him, down the twisting, thundering path of the whitewater will be able to rely on a helmet that will provide far greater protection in this extreme, dangerous, but rapidly growing sport." I did not take that to mean that *all* whitewater is extreme. Regardless, I don't think the Turners know any other kind. Sorry Dennis, but I can only read from that they they consider all white water paddling is extreme and dangerous. As you point out, they may not know any other. That's a *very* small part of the community that they aim at... snip From what I've read in his message posted here and on the web, he doesn't impress me with his knowledge about our sport. snip And why should he? He tells how he got into this and does not claim to be a big water boater, or a marketing guru. He claims to have come up with the "world's safest whitewater helmet", without giving *any* arguments in to support his claim. He just puts a couple of populistic terms in his article to sell it, even though those terms aren't representative for our sport. If he doesn't know what he's talking about with regard to whitewater paddling, what customers (paddlers) he's aiming at, what does that say about his product? Who says that he does know what he's talking about with regard to that? I know other products that are sold as the world's best whatever, but I wouldn't buy a "Tell&Sell" white water helmet either... If he wants his product to have some effect on the safety of our sport, it sure helps to make sure who his target audience is, and how he can approach them and interest them in his product. IMNSHO this isn't the way. Give the guy a little credit. I don't know him, he may not even be a paddler. He makes one post here offering to sell what he believes to be a safe and reliable paddling helmet (at cost of production), and he gets trashed and his helmet gets roundly critisized (I'm not talking about you here Wilko). Quite the reception for a guy who is trying to make a positive contribution to the sport. He comes onto this forum, trying to market a product to a mostly knowledgable audience. His motives might be okay, but his advertising tactic isn't, and he could at least not try to insult our intelligence by coming up with unsubstantiated claims. If he wants to make a positive contribution, he could at least have done some research into our sport and realize what works and what doesn't. Ever seen Nurpu? Nope. Why? -- Wilko van den Bergh Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations. http://wilko.webzone.ru/ |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote: In article Brian Nystrom wrote: Go to his web site and read it for yourself. No need. I think that pretty much says it all, you prefer to remain ignorant of the subject you're attempting to debate. If you're too lazy to read the material and find the answers for yourself, don't expect me to spoon feed them to you. -- Regards Brian |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
Michael Daly posted:
snip I thought their post was over the top, and up to now have refrained from getting too involved, but I've got to say that supporting their hype is a bit much. snip Go watch Nurpu. Dennis |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
Wilko kayaker posted:
snip He comes onto this forum, trying to market a product to a mostly knowledgable audience. His motives might be okay, but his advertising tactic isn't, My understanding is that this is a nonproffit endevor. Who says he knows anything about marketing? If he were doing this for money he could hire a slick advertising firm. and he could at least not try to insult our intelligence by coming up with unsubstantiated claims. Untill someone holds one of those helmets in their hands they don't know any more about it than I do, which is zip. Who knows, could be a valid claim. If he wants to make a positive contribution, he could at least have done some research into our sport and realize what works and what doesn't. Research? He mentioned that his son Nick is assisting him. Go watch Nurpu. Dennis |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
Paddlec1 wrote: Wilko posted: He comes onto this forum, trying to market a product to a mostly knowledgable audience. His motives might be okay, but his advertising tactic isn't, My understanding is that this is a nonproffit endevor. Who says he knows anything about marketing? If he were doing this for money he could hire a slick advertising firm. For the impact and effect his post has, it doesn't matter that he does this for profit or not. The tone is doing his message more bad than good, and I don't think that could be his intention. and he could at least not try to insult our intelligence by coming up with unsubstantiated claims. Untill someone holds one of those helmets in their hands they don't know any more about it than I do, which is zip. Who knows, could be a valid claim. He makes a claim, it's up to him to substantiate it. If he wants to make a positive contribution, he could at least have done some research into our sport and realize what works and what doesn't. Research? He mentioned that his son Nick is assisting him. Go watch Nurpu. I don't need to watch a video to judge from a message whether or not someone has an accurate image of our sport. Depsite his son's experience, it seems that the father still hangs onto an image that in incongruous with reality. That does make me wonder about the validity of his claims wrt white water paddling equipment... -- Wilko van den Bergh Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations. http://wilko.webzone.ru/ |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
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World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
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World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
peteg wrote:
While I sympathize with the parents on their son's death, I have to question why a paddler with this much experience and paddling very hard runs like the ones mentioned above (by the way Jacobs Ladder isn't 5++) was wearing a Protec helmet. Anyone with any experience should know that there are other helmets on the market which are more suitable for expert kayaking... Which helmets are these? Aside from Mike Fentress design with facemask, now unavailable, I haven't seen any kayaking helmets that impress me a whole lot. Many of them look like retro Hell's Angel's motorcycling helmets with limited coverage. |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
On 9-Sep-2003, Charles Pezeshki wrote:
I think Dennis suggested that this might give perspective on the Turners' vision for a whitewater helmet, and the things they expect it to be able to hold up to. I think that several of us have been knocking this advert because it doesn't qualify the WW view. If they were more clear on the objective and less sensationalist, I certainly would not have said a thing. And hey-- justifying Pro-tec helmets- huh? I don't think too many supporters of Pro-tec have spoken as "extremely" as have the Turners and Dennis. I think that a lot of the regulars know that they're crap. BTW - I still don't see why a good hockey helmet wouldn't be fine for WW. ISTM that hitting the boards at high speed while a 225lb meathead is slamming his forearm against the back of your head on every shift is a reasonable approximation of a really, really bad day on the river. Protection all around and tested for 100mph frozen rubber pucks. Mature technology too - all done by experts. Reinventing the wheel for WW seems a tad wasteful. Minor mods to existing hocket helmets seems easy. Mike |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
Bill Tuthill wrote:
peteg wrote: While I sympathize with the parents on their son's death, I have to question why a paddler with this much experience and paddling very hard runs like the ones mentioned above (by the way Jacobs Ladder isn't 5++) was wearing a Protec helmet. Anyone with any experience should know that there are other helmets on the market which are more suitable for expert kayaking... Which helmets are these? Aside from Mike Fentress design with facemask, now unavailable, I haven't seen any kayaking helmets that impress me a whole lot. Many of them look like retro Hell's Angel's motorcycling helmets with limited coverage. How about the Grateful Heads Dropzone? I have added a faceguard to mine, and I like the coverage as well as fit. It covers my forehead, the back of my skull, as well as my ears, even though I have a (large) size of head that very few white water helmets fit. Some pictures: http://wilko.webzone.ru/soc-04.jpg http://wilko.webzone.ru/soc-a16.jpg (Don't laugh, it's not wat it seems! :-)) -- Wilko van den Bergh Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations. http://wilko.webzone.ru/ |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
"Michael Daly" wrote in message
ble.rogers.com... BTW - I still don't see why a good hockey helmet wouldn't be fine for WW. ISTM that hitting the boards at high speed while a 225lb meathead is slamming his forearm against the back of your head on every shift is a reasonable approximation of a really, really bad day on the river. Protection all around and tested for 100mph frozen rubber pucks. Mature technology too - all done by experts. Reinventing the wheel for WW seems a tad wasteful. Minor mods to existing hocket helmets seems easy. Speaking as a person who has almost always worn a hockey helmet in whitewater, I feel somewhat qualified to address this. The biggest safety issue with hockey helmets is that the foam is not designed to be in contact with water. I don't think it's a big deal, but you should check it regularly to ensure it's not degrading. My experience with hockey helmets has been that they are not assembled in a water-resistant manner. My first one had cardboard in it--the foam was glued to the cardboard and the cardboard was attached to the shell. You can imagine how well that worked. My second (current) one has the foam glued directly to the shell, but the glue was not waterproof. I have to reinsert the foam every time I put it on--once it's on my head , the foam can't shift, so I don't worry about it. Coverage is excellent, though. Durability is good. I'm pretty confident that it will protect my noggin in any situation where any whitewater helmet would work. -Paul |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
Hey Wilco
In thst first picture (the one with the itty bitty boat) how do you fold up your legs to fit in the bow? Or is that attenuated length a lens distortion. That little boat must have the shortest turning length known to man. Should be great for salom races. Best regards, John Adams "Wilko" wrote in message news:iso7b.36933$tK5.4509384@zonnet-reader-1... How about the Grateful Heads Dropzone? I have added a faceguard to mine, and I like the coverage as well as fit. It covers my forehead, the back of my skull, as well as my ears, even though I have a (large) size of head that very few white water helmets fit. Some pictures: http://wilko.webzone.ru/soc-04.jpg http://wilko.webzone.ru/soc-a16.jpg (Don't laugh, it's not wat it seems! :-)) -- Wilko van den Bergh Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations. http://wilko.webzone.ru/ |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
On 9-Sep-2003, "Paul Skoczylas" wrote:
Speaking as a person who has almost always worn a hockey helmet in whitewater, I feel somewhat qualified to address this. [useful observations elided...} So if someone wanted to market a WW helmet, how hard would it be to get a hockey helmet manufacturer to make it waterproof - different glue, no water degradable parts etc? These are minor mods. The biggest safety issue with hockey helmets is that the foam is not designed to be in contact with water. The type of foam is an issue, though. I know someone who worked at a plastics company and they made hockey helmet liners for a major maker (wouldn't tell me who). He gave me lots of scrap foam from the manufacture (seconds and off-cuts) and I've used it for padding my kayaks. It's a good closed cell foam and works fine. A tad softer than minicell and comfy as anything. No problems with water. In your case, it would seem the maker would have to switch to another type of foam and that could involve re-testing to certify. However, that's seems brand dependent. My point is that the R&D work's been done and a tough, full-coverage helmet (degree of face protection optional), that can take lots of knocks already exist. Starting from scratch is not a good idea. Mike |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
John Q Adams wrote: Hey Wilco In thst first picture (the one with the itty bitty boat) how do you fold up your legs to fit in the bow? Actually John, at about 2,40 m (~8ft), that's my biggest playboat. This is my new playboat, which is shorter than me (6'8"): http://wilko.webzone.ru/ftw-1.jpg Or is that attenuated length a lens distortion. That little boat must have the shortest turning length known to man. Should be great for salom races. It's indeed an optical distortion: with me being so tall, it just looks like a tiny boat. Compared to the 1,76 m (~5'10") long boat my GF has, those playboats of mine are both huge: http://wilko.webzone.ru/soc-a24.jpg -- Wilko van den Bergh Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations. http://wilko.webzone.ru/ |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
A better picture of my GF's 1,76 m short (Zelezny Igo) kayak:
http://wilko.webzone.ru/klar140.jpg -- Wilko van den Bergh Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations. http://wilko.webzone.ru/ |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
Michael Daly wrote: On 9-Sep-2003, "Paul Skoczylas" wrote: Speaking as a person who has almost always worn a hockey helmet in whitewater, I feel somewhat qualified to address this. [useful observations elided...} So if someone wanted to market a WW helmet, how hard would it be to get a hockey helmet manufacturer to make it waterproof - different glue, no water degradable parts etc? These are minor mods. Funny thing, the ProTec helmet started out as a hockey helmet. Since then, it's been modified for use in several other sports. -- Regards Brian |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
On 9-Sep-2003, Brian Nystrom wrote:
Funny thing, the ProTec helmet started out as a hockey helmet. ??? - given how crummy they are by comparison to the standard helmets used by hockey players, that sounds odd. A Protec helmet as sold today is comparable to a hockey helmet of the '60s, before the hockey standards were seriously tightened up. I never heard of Protec until I got into paddling and hockey is practically a religion here in the GWN. Mike |
World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
Michael Daly wrote: On 9-Sep-2003, Brian Nystrom wrote: Funny thing, the ProTec helmet started out as a hockey helmet. ??? - given how crummy they are by comparison to the standard helmets used by hockey players, that sounds odd. A Protec helmet as sold today is comparable to a hockey helmet of the '60s, before the hockey standards were seriously tightened up. I never heard of Protec until I got into paddling and hockey is practically a religion here in the GWN. I sold 'em when they first came out, which was ~1980. They had hockey and cycling versions , the only difference being that the hockey helmet had full ear coverage. The same two variants were probably sold for other activities as well. -- Regards Brian |
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