sponsons really work! (BS)
 

On 4-Sep-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote:

Yes, of course I know you know nothing sponsons, because if you did know
anything about sponsons it would have been obvious in what you've written in
this long rambling discussion.

Well, little man, you obviously have not been reading my posts, otherwise you'd
know I've been writing from personal experience testing Timmy boy's sponsons
on real kayaks.

You've spent a few minutes of time in kayaks in your whole life! How much of
that with sponsons? Get off yor high horse!

I claim experince in a range of small boats makes a person capable of
making accurate comparisons after 2-3 hours investigating a number of
different kayak models.

Bull****! I've spent years sailing (inland lakes and offshore, racing and cruising),
canoeing and kayaking on fla****er and WW - in a variety of different craft as
well. I've been taught by a number of the best sailors and paddlers I could find.

One thing I know is that one _cannot_ determine what a kayak can do with
only a short paddle. It takes several day's worth of paddling under widely
varying conditions to determine a kayaks true characteristics. As I've said
before - you are speaking from ignorance and self-aggrandizement.

You have no formal training and have no basis for comparison to what those
of us who know kayaks are capable of.

"Expert" is not a word I would use for myself

Opinionated fool yes, but you are certainly not qualified to give a meaningful
opinion. As I said - you have no relevant experience in kayaks and have
no basis for your wildly exaggerated statements about the efficacy of
sponsons on kayaks.

You've already proven your ignorance with ridiculous statements about
waxing kayaks, round hulls and your fictions about the historical record
of Inuit and other traditional kayaks.

Which precludes the use of sponsons.

No it does not. Sponsons, for those who have been reading this thread with
any understanding at all, are intended to prevent capsize and subsequent
re-entry. They are not a re-entry aid.

Sponsons _are_ a re-entry aid for kayaks. Get a clue. Just because you
think they are not doesn't mean the rest of us should change the way
kayaking is approached. Look in any decent sea kayaking book - sponsons
_are_ a re-entry aid. They are _not_ part of the kayak, but an add-on
that is deployed when needed.

And I repeat for the umpteenth time - sponsons reduce the stability of a kayak
in rough conditions and will almost certainly lead to a capsize in breaking
waves. This is based on the fundamental characteristics of hulls in rough
water and on the experience of many people over many years.

From John Winters' article on stability of kayaks:
http://www.swiftcanoe.com/kayak/arti...sults.asp?ID=4

-Quote
For day paddling in benign conditions a more beamy boat will feel more secure
and serve nicely for novices. On the other hand, if breaking seas are expected,
then the narrower boat is best. Conversely if we spend extended periods of time
in open water then a beamier boat is best but with the qualification that it must be
ballasted sufficiently to deter capsize and must not be so beamy as to have
_excessive_initial_stability_ [my emphasis - as that provided by sponsons MD].
[...]
Nevertheless, sea kayaks with high form stability are always more susceptible to
capsize by breaking waves than a boat with less form stability. It is myth that
increasing beam increases safety... [or adding sponsons or other artificial stability
aids MD]
-End Quote

John Winters has designed a number of canoes and kayaks for both racing, touring
and WW. Examples include the Swift Kippawa canoe, the Swift Bering Sea kayak
and the QCC kayaks.

Yes but anyone with any boating experience can see themn comming from far
enougth away to get to shore.

Bull**** - I've experienced those squalls running into Lac des Chenes in sailboat
racing when I was a member of BBYC many years ago. They come in so
fast that a paddler well into the lake would _not_ have time to get to shore.
If you want to stay in little puddles then you can stay off the water if
storms come up. If you want to travel by kayak then you are, of necessity,
required to be able to deal with storms. Paddling off many ocean coasts
and Great Lakes regions, like parts of Notre Dame Bay in Newfoundland means
paddling for many kilometers with no safe landing along the way. If you can't
deal with this then you aren't ready for real sea kayaking.

Reading winds and weather patterns is basic to sailing. Its not an option
for sailing like it is for paddling.

Again your ignorance of kayaking is showing again. I was paddling with a new
kayaker last month and spent some time teaching him how to read the wind
and explaining why it's important. No good sea kayaker would go out on an
extended trip without weather knowledge. That's why many sea kayakers, like
myself, are licensed for marine VHF and use radios to get up-to-date weather
info. That's also why there are often articles on reading the weather in sea
kayaking magazines.

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Go.../Summer98.html

"Limited" is the word I used to describe your outlook and experience.

You know nothing of my knowledge and experience. It is certainly
wider than yours.

Years of sea kayaking under all conditions on the Great Lakes and oceans
and no upsets unless I wanted to. Kayaks are _not_ that unstable. Your
comments are based on ignorance.

Are you claiming capsize and re-entry is a non-issue? Or just a non-issue
yourself?

I never said anything of the kind. You claim that kayaks are unstable and
need sponsons. I'm claiming that they are not that unstable and that
there are many options for re-entry beyond just sponsons.

Agressivness like yours is what leads paddlers into coniditions where they
don't belong, not safety mindedness.

In what way? I tell people to make sure they are trained for the conditions that
they _will_ encounter (not the nice, benign ones they daydream about). That
includes knowing many techniques besides just sponsons.

Sponsons have advantages and disadvantages (some of the latter I've listed). Every
paddlers should learn about them and other rescue and re-entry aids and techniques.
Then they decide which ones they include in their repertoire. Blindly advocating
sponsons without a realistic consideration of the drawbacks, as you do, is nonsense.

You still know nothing about kayaks and kayaking and still insist you are always right.
You have not addressed any of the objections that I have made to your comments,
rather you just keep claiming to know more than me. Get a clue.

Mike

sponsons really work! (BS)
 

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
le.rogers.com...
On 4-Sep-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote:

I like the idea of using sponsons to make a kayak stable enough to get
easily in and out of and to move around on a boat in calm water. I saw a
picture of a guy standing up in a sponson equiped kayak is this realistic?

Yes, of course I know you know nothing sponsons, because if you did know
anything about sponsons it would have been obvious in what you've
written in
this long rambling discussion.

Well, little man, you obviously have not been reading my posts, otherwise
you'd
know I've been writing from personal experience testing Timmy boy's
sponsons
on real kayaks.

You've spent a few minutes of time in kayaks in your whole life! How
much of
that with sponsons? Get off yor high horse!

I claim experince in a range of small boats makes a person capable of
making accurate comparisons after 2-3 hours investigating a number of
different kayak models.

Bull****! I've spent years sailing (inland lakes and offshore, racing and
cruising),
canoeing and kayaking on fla****er and WW - in a variety of different
craft as
well. I've been taught by a number of the best sailors and paddlers I
could find.

One thing I know is that one _cannot_ determine what a kayak can do with
only a short paddle. It takes several day's worth of paddling under
widely
varying conditions to determine a kayaks true characteristics. As I've
said
before - you are speaking from ignorance and self-aggrandizement.

You have no formal training and have no basis for comparison to what those
of us who know kayaks are capable of.

"Expert" is not a word I would use for myself

Opinionated fool yes, but you are certainly not qualified to give a
meaningful
opinion. As I said - you have no relevant experience in kayaks and have
no basis for your wildly exaggerated statements about the efficacy of
sponsons on kayaks.

You've already proven your ignorance with ridiculous statements about
waxing kayaks, round hulls and your fictions about the historical record
of Inuit and other traditional kayaks.

Which precludes the use of sponsons.

No it does not. Sponsons, for those who have been reading this thread
with
any understanding at all, are intended to prevent capsize and subsequent
re-entry. They are not a re-entry aid.

Sponsons _are_ a re-entry aid for kayaks. Get a clue. Just because you
think they are not doesn't mean the rest of us should change the way
kayaking is approached. Look in any decent sea kayaking book - sponsons
_are_ a re-entry aid. They are _not_ part of the kayak, but an add-on
that is deployed when needed.

And I repeat for the umpteenth time - sponsons reduce the stability of a
kayak
in rough conditions and will almost certainly lead to a capsize in
breaking
waves. This is based on the fundamental characteristics of hulls in rough
water and on the experience of many people over many years.

From John Winters' article on stability of kayaks:
http://www.swiftcanoe.com/kayak/arti...sults.asp?ID=4

-Quote
For day paddling in benign conditions a more beamy boat will feel more
secure
and serve nicely for novices. On the other hand, if breaking seas are
expected,
then the narrower boat is best. Conversely if we spend extended periods of
time
in open water then a beamier boat is best but with the qualification that
it must be
ballasted sufficiently to deter capsize and must not be so beamy as to
have
_excessive_initial_stability_ [my emphasis - as that provided by
sponsons MD].
[...]
Nevertheless, sea kayaks with high form stability are always more
susceptible to
capsize by breaking waves than a boat with less form stability. It is myth
that
increasing beam increases safety... [or adding sponsons or other
artificial stability
aids MD]
-End Quote

John Winters has designed a number of canoes and kayaks for both racing,
touring
and WW. Examples include the Swift Kippawa canoe, the Swift Bering Sea
kayak
and the QCC kayaks.

Yes but anyone with any boating experience can see themn comming from
far
enougth away to get to shore.

Bull**** - I've experienced those squalls running into Lac des Chenes in
sailboat
racing when I was a member of BBYC many years ago. They come in so
fast that a paddler well into the lake would _not_ have time to get to
shore.
If you want to stay in little puddles then you can stay off the water if
storms come up. If you want to travel by kayak then you are, of
necessity,
required to be able to deal with storms. Paddling off many ocean coasts
and Great Lakes regions, like parts of Notre Dame Bay in Newfoundland
means
paddling for many kilometers with no safe landing along the way. If you
can't
deal with this then you aren't ready for real sea kayaking.

Reading winds and weather patterns is basic to sailing. Its not an
option
for sailing like it is for paddling.

Again your ignorance of kayaking is showing again. I was paddling with a
new
kayaker last month and spent some time teaching him how to read the wind
and explaining why it's important. No good sea kayaker would go out on an
extended trip without weather knowledge. That's why many sea kayakers,
like
myself, are licensed for marine VHF and use radios to get up-to-date
weather
info. That's also why there are often articles on reading the weather in
sea
kayaking magazines.

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Go.../Summer98.html

"Limited" is the word I used to describe your outlook and experience.

You know nothing of my knowledge and experience. It is certainly
wider than yours.

Years of sea kayaking under all conditions on the Great Lakes and
oceans
and no upsets unless I wanted to. Kayaks are _not_ that unstable.
Your
comments are based on ignorance.

Are you claiming capsize and re-entry is a non-issue? Or just a
non-issue
yourself?

I never said anything of the kind. You claim that kayaks are unstable and
need sponsons. I'm claiming that they are not that unstable and that
there are many options for re-entry beyond just sponsons.

Agressivness like yours is what leads paddlers into coniditions where
they
don't belong, not safety mindedness.

In what way? I tell people to make sure they are trained for the
conditions that
they _will_ encounter (not the nice, benign ones they daydream about).
That
includes knowing many techniques besides just sponsons.

Sponsons have advantages and disadvantages (some of the latter I've
listed). Every
paddlers should learn about them and other rescue and re-entry aids and
techniques.
Then they decide which ones they include in their repertoire. Blindly
advocating
sponsons without a realistic consideration of the drawbacks, as you do, is
nonsense.

You still know nothing about kayaks and kayaking and still insist you are
always right.
You have not addressed any of the objections that I have made to your
comments,
rather you just keep claiming to know more than me. Get a clue.

Mike

sponsons really work! (BS)
 

"Susanne Jerome" wrote in message
ink.net...

I like the idea of using sponsons to make a kayak stable enough to get
easily in and out of and to move around on a boat in calm water. I saw a
picture of a guy standing up in a sponson equiped kayak is this realistic?


Of course it's realistic--but you don't need sponsons to be able to stand up
in a sea kayak. Check out http://www.ckf.org/Reports/CKF_PaddleFest-2002.htm
and scroll to the bottom of the page. First photo on the left in the last
row.

IMHO, you are much more stable in a boat without the sponsons any time there
is the possibility of having waves. Take a class on bracing and supportive
strokes and you won't need sponsons.

sponsons really work! (BS)
 

"Seakayaker" wrote in
m:


"Susanne Jerome" wrote in message
ink.net...

I like the idea of using sponsons to make a kayak stable enough to get
easily in and out of and to move around on a boat in calm water. I
saw a picture of a guy standing up in a sponson equiped kayak is this
realistic?


Of course it's realistic--but you don't need sponsons to be able to
stand up in a sea kayak. Check out
http://www.ckf.org/Reports/CKF_PaddleFest-2002.htm and scroll to the
bottom of the page. First photo on the left in the last row.

It looks like he's getting some stability assistance from the guy in the
boat next to him.

Take a look at this one...

http://mayfly.mannlib.cornell.edu/pa...tion/marg2.gif

As the Swee****er kayak symposium I've seen Nigel Foster stand in his 21"
wide Legend on one foot on a day when the winds were blowing so hard that
they cancelled most of the on water sessions.

sponsons really work! (BS)
 

"Susanne Jerome" writes:

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
le.rogers.com...
On 4-Sep-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote:

I like the idea of using sponsons to make a kayak stable enough to get
easily in and out of and to move around on a boat in calm water. I saw a
picture of a guy standing up in a sponson equiped kayak is this realistic?

Maybe, but I have to say, the whole thing sounds kind of like a
kludge. If you want a boat that allows you go get up and march
around in it, you really want some other kind of boat, not a kayak.
That's not to say that there isn't a lot of variance in kayak shapes
and sizes, but compared with other boat designs, kayaks are designed
to be relatively close-fitting and narrow. Every type of boat does
some things better than others, and the way to choose your boat is
based on what you want to do the most. If moving around in your
boat is very important to you, a kayak is not the best boat for
doing that in, and kludging a kayak to allow for that is IMO not the
best solution.

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

sponsons really work! (BS)
 

On 5-Sep-2003, John Fereira wrote:

Take a look at this one...

http://mayfly.mannlib.cornell.edu/pa...tion/marg2.gif

That's Margaret Killen - she's annoying to paddle with because
she's so damn good!! :-) :-)

I've seen her do stuff that I can only dream of doing. That's a Romany
she's standing in - certainly not a wide kayak!

Mike

sponsons really work! (BS)
 

stuff deleted

No it does not. Sponsons, for those who have been reading this thread with
any understanding at all, are intended to prevent capsize and subsequent
re-entry. They are not a re-entry aid.


Now this could well be the most intelligent thing said on the subject
(grin).

Rick

sponsons really work! (BS)
 

On 5-Sep-2003, "Susanne Jerome" wrote:

I like the idea of using sponsons to make a kayak stable enough to get
easily in and out of and to move around on a boat in calm water.

I don't know anyone who needs sponsons to get in or out of a kayak. Perhaps
you need to learn how to do it right. If you straddle the kayak and drop your
backside into the seat and then lift your legs in, you should be plenty stable
unless you're in an extremely tippy kayak.

If you can't fit your legs in (too tall), then you'll have to resort to using your
paddle to brace. Hold the paddle behind the cockpit coaming and place one
blade of the paddle on something solid (like the shore, a rock, etc). Sit
on the kayak behind the cockpit and place your legs in (do _not_ sit on
the paddle!). Then slide into the seat and you're done.

In calm water you'd have no need for sponsons. If the kayak is too tippy
in calm water, get another kayak. Sponsons should not be used to mask
the deficiencies of a kayak. They are a self-rescue aid and should be used
as such.

I saw a
picture of a guy standing up in a sponson equiped kayak is this realistic?

You mean Jack on Timmy-boy's or the White Squall web site? Certainly it's
realistic, however, as others have pointed out, you can do that without sponsons.
I can't see why you'd want to. It purports to prove how stable kayaks are with
sponsons, but IMNSHO, it's whitewash.

BTW - one of Jack's compadres at White Squall in Nobel ON has been seen
doing headstands in kayaks _without_ sponsons. Sorry, I can't find that
picture online.

Mike

sponsons really work! (BS)
 

"Michael Daly" ) writes:

I've been taught by a number of the best sailors and paddlers I could find.

Would that be lessons? I think I see your problem. Lessons close the mind.
The only thing lessons open is the chequebook. The greatest paddlers who
made the greatest discoveries never had a lesson. Avoid the "lessons"
trap. Paddling a kayak is such a simple exercise nobody needs lessons. I
never had a paddling lesson in my life and was able to jump into 20
different kayak models and paddle them like an "expert" instantly. There
is nothing to it. All a person needs is a feel for teh water and a brief
look through an elementary kayak paddlign bood from the public library to
see which side of the blade is up.

Sailing IS differnt. It takes a whole lifetime and you never really learn
it all.


One thing I know is that one _cannot_ determine what a kayak can do with
only a short paddle. It takes several day's worth of paddling under widely
varying conditions to determine a kayaks true characteristics. As I've said
before - you are speaking from ignorance and self-aggrandizement.

nonsense. by making out like kayaking is some sort of secret ritual you
are the one who is self-agrandizing. its child's play. that's why so may
ordinary everyday people are attracted to it and don't get discourageed
right off. well, if they paddle nice safe comfortable kayaks that is, not
your utlrathin Barbie doll hulls.


You have no formal training and have no basis for comparison to what those
of us who know kayaks are capable of.

nonsense. pure nonsense. "formal trainging" like I need formal training to
ride a bicycle or a ice skate or ski or paddle a kayak. I've padded a
kayak. Not a challenge. Nothing to it. I wonder what all those Inuit do
without "formal training" to not only paddle a akayk but carry a seal or
two home on the deck.

...

Bull**** - I've experienced those squalls running into Lac des Chenes in sailboat
racing when I was a member of BBYC many years ago. They come in so
fast that a paddler well into the lake would _not_ have time to get to shore.
If you want to stay in little puddles then you can stay off the water if
storms come up.

shows how little you know about fur tradign routes. taht's professional
paddlign at its best. call yrou self a paddler? Bah.

Getting timed out. Get a life.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

sponsons really work! (BS)
 

On 7-Sep-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote:

I've been taught by a number of the best sailors and paddlers I could find.

Would that be lessons? I think I see your problem. Lessons close the mind.
The only thing lessons open is the chequebook.

I take lessons all the time. Who says I pay? Not all lessons are from
professional instructors. I learn from others who are more experienced. You
on the other hand, assume you know everything and can preach about anything.
Yet you prove with your ridiculous claims that you know little at all.

The greatest paddlers who
made the greatest discoveries never had a lesson.

Bull****. The explorers and traders that opened up North America learned
about canoes and paddling from the first nations. Many explorers had native
guides. The Europeans worked with the first nations to set up the trade they
had. Read Adney and Chappelle for starters - information on how the white
man aquired canoes for the fur trade from the natives.

I never had a paddling lesson in my life and was able to jump into 20
different kayak models and paddle them like an "expert" instantly. There
is nothing to it.

Kindly explain to us all how to do a proper forward stroke, if you're an expert.

Sailing IS differnt. It takes a whole lifetime and you never really learn
it all.

I could say the same thing about kayaking, but you wouldn't get it.

nonsense. by making out like kayaking is some sort of secret ritual you
are the one who is self-agrandizing. its child's play.

If it's child's play, then explain why one of the paddlers I was out with
this weekend gave up when he saw the half-meter waves on Georgian
Bay. Surely if it was child's play, no one would be afraid of such
conditions.

Also explain why another paddler couldn't keep his kayak traveling in a
straight line with a wind on his port bow.

If it's child's play, why do so few paddlers advance beyond the most basic
skills?

I've padded a kayak. Not a challenge. Nothing to it.

In perfect conditions, for a few minutes, on a little puddle. Good, now tell
us all how to carve a turn to the right with waves on the starboard bow.
Surely a self-taught expert like yourself can enlighten us all.

I wonder what all those Inuit do
without "formal training" to not only paddle a akayk but carry a seal or
two home on the deck.

Hmmm, It never ceases to amaze me how often you show off your ignorance.
The Inuit were trained from early childhood in how to kayak and hunt. No
hunter magically arrived at his skills - it was all a lifetime of training. This
is documented. Go look it up. Start in the library of the Museum of
Civilization over in Gatineau.

Bull**** - I've experienced those squalls running into Lac des Chenes in sailboat
racing when I was a member of BBYC many years ago. They come in so
fast that a paddler well into the lake would _not_ have time to get to shore.
If you want to stay in little puddles then you can stay off the water if
storms come up.

shows how little you know about fur tradign routes. taht's professional
paddlign at its best. call yrou self a paddler? Bah.

What the hell does that have to do with fur trading routes?

Mike