sponsons really work! (BS)
 

Michael Daly wrote:

On 26-Aug-2003, Peter wrote:

Haven't used them in a real emergency, but the stability was more than
adequate with a person acting as a pretty limp body and moderate waves
including some whitecaps. The kayak was rather lightly loaded.
[...]
The only sponsons I own are built into the hull of my folder.


Are these the ones you did the test with?

Obviously not. I thought you might remember back a few posts where I
mentioned that the self-rescue class I attended had us practice a few
emergency scenarios with both sponsons and paddle floats. Based on the
experience there it appeared that the rescue sponsons (Sea Wings) had
advantages under some circumstances and I think they should still be
demonstrated. I don't remember exactly which model boat was used for the
'towing with sponsons' test, but it was probably about 16' x 23" and plastic.
I did not personally purchase them, so as I said above, the only sponsons I
own are the ones that came with my folder.

They aren't doing the same
thing as Timmy's sponsons, since they are inside the hull. Their main
purpose is to tighten up the skin over the frame and provide increased
bouyancy in the event of the kayak being flooded.

The internal sponsons on the folders I've seen are totally inadequate to
provide significant bouyancy if the kayak is flooded. Much more
substantial flotation bags and preferably also a seasock arrangement are
needed to ensure that the boat can be easily reentered and pumped out. But
although their volume is small, the location of the sponsons at the edge of
the hull does increase the stability of the boat if the cockpit is flooded

Most folders are high in stability due to hull shape, not because they
contain sponsons.

The two are not so easily separated. Sure stability is due to hull shape -
the water doesn't know what's inside the hull. But the external shape of
the hull is changed by the presence of the sponsons, making it bulge
outward above the waterline and making it more resistant to tipping past a
certain point when the sponsons are inflated. Whether that bulge is inside
or outside the nominal hull doesn't matter much from a stability standpoint
- in either case the bulge provides a righting moment if it is pushed below
the water on one side.

sponsons really work! (BS)
 

Peter typed:

[snip]

The small sailing dinghies I've used are only a little harder, but they all
had flotation installed under the seats on the sides of the cockpit which
acted as internal sponsons when swamped.

Whoa, please, Peter! You completely turn the discussion around, and
make it meaningless, when you use language this carelessly. There can
be NO SUCH THING as an "internal sponson". By definition, a sponson
is one of many kinds of *projections or protuberances from the hull*
of a vessel. By strict definition, it need not provide any floatation
at all, as the many small-gun sponsons that were hung off the edges of
the decks of older warships.

You are equating "sponsons" with "floatation chambers". And the value
you are ascribing to sponsons is the value derived from the feature
Timmy's *inflatable* sponsons' share with floatation chambers: they
hold air. It is realistic to say "sponsons act as external floatation
chambers"; it is meaningless to say "floatation chambers act as
internal sponsons."

Nearly no-one posting to this forum would argue against floatation
chambers in any kind of boat. Floating yer boat is crucial, and
floatation chambers ameliorate some of the problems inherent in
capsizing. You have turned the meaning of language around and are
fallaciously praising sponsons by saying the floatation chambers (very
good thing) acted as sponsons (a questionably good thing). Floatation
chambers have the salutory benefit of a *secondary* characteristic of
(Timmy's inflatable) sponsons, but floatation chambers do not
necessarily have the problematic *primary* characteristic of sponsons,
that they protrude beyond the hull and compromise the hull design.

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
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Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll.
rhople[at]wfubmc[dot]edu 1-336-713-5077
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters.
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sponsons really work! (BS)
 

Oci-One Kanubi wrote:
Peter typed:

[snip]

The small sailing dinghies I've used are only a little harder, but
they all had flotation installed under the seats on the sides of the
cockpit which acted as internal sponsons when swamped.


Whoa, please, Peter! You completely turn the discussion around, and
make it meaningless, when you use language this carelessly.

I don't think it's careless at all. My "Standard College Dictionary" gives
as the third definition of sponson "An air tank built into the sides of a
canoe to improve stability and prevent sinking." The air tanks under the
seats of the dinghies I sailed were "built into the sides of those boats to
improve stability and prevent sinking" and on that basis I asserted that
they acted as internal sponsons.

There can
be NO SUCH THING as an "internal sponson".

That doesn't seem to be the view of my dictionary, nor is it the view of
Klepper, Folbot, or Feathercraft, which all refer to the air chambers
located inside the hulls of their boats as sponsons.

sponsons really work! (BS)
 

Michael Daly wrote:

On 26-Aug-2003, Peter wrote:


The air tanks under the
seats of the dinghies I sailed were "built into the sides of those boats to
improve stability and prevent sinking"


How do they improve stability if they are inside the hull?

I was quoting the dictionary so I didn't modify their wording. I thought
it was clear that the authors meant that both the improved stability and
resistance to sinking applied under the condition that the boat was
flooded. Afterall that's the only time that flotation tanks become functional.

sponsons really work! (BS)
 

Mary Malmros ) writes:
(William R. Watt) writes:

no BS. I put sponsons on a 7.5 ft sailboat. Keep them above the waterline
where they don't add to hull resistance through the water. Without teh
sponsons I'd never get back into the boat after a cpasize.

You MUST be kidding. I could right a Sailfish on my own when I was
six years old. Okay, it took a little work, but...

that's no boat, just a hunk of foam you balance on top of, ie one big
sponson, and hopefully you did not at the age of six weigh 155 lb and have
6 ft of body to drag over a gunwale

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sponsons really work! (BS)
 

"Michael Daly" ) writes:
On 26-Aug-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:

so commenting
on it isn't exactly "thrashing newbies".

Dumping on the original poster isn't thrashing a newbie. He claims to
have paddled/sailed/whatever all his life without a lesson. It shows in
that he knows almost nothing of value and is more of a troll than someone
to take seriously. In this case, you're thrashing a self-proclaimed "expert"
who deserves it.

funny how some people label anyone who disagrees with their limited
experience.

there are photos of the 7.5 ft sail boat with the sponsons on my website
(see below) click on "boats" then on "Loonie". When nto sialign it is
proelled by a home made feathered double bladed paddle which qualifies the
boat for discussion in a paddlign newsgroup, and doubles as a sterrign oar
when under sail. Its a neat little boat made from a single sheet of
plywood. I use and enjoy it often, sometimes in very strong winds on small
waters where there are no large waves.


Mike

who sees in his dreams trolls coming out of the woodwoork



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sponsons really work! (BS)
 

"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...
"Michael Daly" ) writes:

BTW dictionaries are famous for getting definitions wrong - especially
in scientific
and technical terminology. My Webster's here says that oxygen is the
most
plentiful element in the universe.


I think you mean "atmosphere", not "universe". I'd check that dictionary
definitions again.

It's still wrong. Oxygen is only 20% of air---Nitrogen is far more
plentiful.




On this subject of getting back into capsized boats, I've done in in
canoes, sailing dingys, and once in a kayak. The problem in lightweight
narrow boats is getting one's hips over the gunwale. Most sailboats have
to be wide to carry sail. The one I built out of a single sheet of plywood
is narrow like a kayak. To carry sail and to re-enter after a capsize the
sponsons are needed. When you re-enter a kayak you normally pull yourself
up onto the rear deck and slide forward until you can straddle the boat
and drop your butt into the seat. On a boat with no rear deck, like my
small sailboat, and also I think on a kayak, you can enter from the side
by first sticking a floatation device under your hips to raise them to the
surface so you can slide them in over the gunwale. That's the way I have
re-enterd the sailboat. I sit on a floation cushion when using the boat
and shove the flotation cusion under my hips to re-enter the boat after a
capsize. However I only did that once as a test because the sponsons have
prevented any capsizes since they were installed.

The technique of using a floatation cushion would not work in any rough
water conditions that would have caused me to capsize in the first place.
What keeps the cushion from floating away? How do you hold the boat, your
paddle, and the cushion while you try to get it under your hips? Have you
ever tried this in 6 foot or higher breaking seas?

Then the technique of straddling a kayak is also not good for rough water
entries. If I put my butt in the boat first, my legs will not get into the
cockpit. Better techniques can be found in any of the many books and videos
on the market for kayak re-entires and recoveries.

I consider anything that interferes with my kayak being put up on edge as
unsafe. A boat that stays flat on the surface of the water cannot be
controlled. A breaking wave will cause it to capsize with or without
sponsons.

sponsons really work! (BS)
 

William R. Watt wrote:
"Michael Daly" ) writes:


BTW dictionaries are famous for getting definitions wrong - especially in scientific
and technical terminology. My Webster's here says that oxygen is the most
plentiful element in the universe.



I think you mean "atmosphere", not "universe". I'd check that dictionary
definitions again.


- Nitrogen is the most abundant element in the atmosphere. O2 is ~21%.
- Hydrogen is [most likely] the most abundant element in the universe.

--Chris

sponsons really work! (BS)
 

On 27-Aug-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote:

I think you mean "atmosphere", not "universe". I'd check that dictionary
definitions again.

I've got the dictionary right here. You don't. Why do you assume _I'm_ wrong?
It says nothing about atmosphere. Even if it did, it'd still be wrong.

I'm getting the impression Mike is typing without thinking.

You post without knowing. Get a clue.

Mike

sponsons really work! (BS)
 

I found a dictionary which does say oxygen is "the most abundant element".
It's the Gage Canadian dictionary. I have it right here too. I'm not sure
what they mean by that. None of my other dictionaries make that claim.

One dictionary says oxygen is only 21% of the atmoshpere. Of course oxygen
occurs in other forms, as an element in water, for example.

"Michael Daly" ) writes:
On 27-Aug-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote:

I think you mean "atmosphere", not "universe". I'd check that dictionary
definitions again.

I've got the dictionary right here. You don't. Why do you assume _I'm_ wrong?
It says nothing about atmosphere. Even if it did, it'd still be wrong.

I'm getting the impression Mike is typing without thinking.

You post without knowing. Get a clue.

Mike


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