On Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:44:04 -0400, OmDeFlume wrote:

On 3/30/2011 11:20 AM, Harryk wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Mar 30, 10:50 am, wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Mar 30, 10:24 am, wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
The accident in San Diego Bay on a Mac26 sailboat where two died
causes my jaw to drop in wonder at the things people do. TEN PEOPLE
ON A 26' sailboat? NO, IT"S WORSE, THEY ARE DISABLED PEOPLE. I am
unable to think of an expletive sufficient to convey how insane this
was.
Sailing a small boat requires you to be cognitively and physically
able to respond to things rapidly. For this reason, I do not think
disabled people belong on small sailboats. Things can happen very
fast requiring one to act quickly.
In my 25 years of sailing, my wife has never understood why more than
two people aboard turns me into a nervous wreck but sailing requires
that you be able to reach all the controls all the time. Sure, the
cockpit may hold 6 people seated comfortably but that one obese
person
sitting in front of the starboard winch who cannot move unless
given a
5 minute warning effectively disables the boat. Two somewhat disabled
people in the cockpit and you should stay anchored.
Even able bodied people are a problem: "Yes, I know its comfy there
but going downwind sitting on the traveller may not be a good idea",
or "If you lean back any more your hair may get caught in the winch
and I'd hate to see you scalped" and then as their kids scramble over
the top of the cabin "IF you're going forward put on a harness for
gods sake".
How many people is too many? It has taken me 25 years to realize that
it is any number that distracts ANY of your attention from running
the
boat. Even worse for these guys in San Diego is that they chose a
boat that requires one more life and death adjustment, letting in the
ballast water. In all the commotion of getting all ten disabled
people situated, it would be easy to oversee that detail. Remember,
it isn't just ten people but they would all be wearing life jackets
making them take up more space. To make the situation much worse, San
Diego Bay is so crowded with traffic that you could walk across the
bay atop the decks of the moving boats. The captain was not just
totally distracted by his 10 disabled passengers but had to try to
pay
attention to the boat handling while also watching the traffic. I
think my face must go white every time I think about this nightmare
situation.
I don't disagree with some of what you posted, but I wouldn't go
out in
San Diego Bay in a Mac 26.
I know someone who sailed a Mac26 from Fort Lauderdale to Marsh HArbor
in the Bahamas. AFAIK, there has never been a Mac26 accident
involving equipment failure of the basic systems.
How many accidents have there been as a result of the poor seakeeping
qualities of the design?

No idea but this does not qualify as one. Almost any sailboat will
take far more than her owner will if the hatches are closed and she is
left to the wind and seas. The Mac26 has positive floatation so she
will always float and will right herself whereas most conventional
sailboats have heavy lead ballast that will become structurally
unstable when turned upside down. Almost all accidents occur when
trying to reach land and this is where the Mac26 does well with her
shoal draft being able to go into 1' of water, being beachable even.
A Mac26 would certainly do better at sea in a storm than a Parker
although I'd not try.


http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html


Boat capsized, no ballast in tanks, "handles like a canoe."

Lousy sailboat, lousy powerboat.

There you go, passing judgment on something you know little or nothing
about. Shame on you, Harry.

Overloaded, not ballasted, and skippered by a drunk.

Yup, must be the boat's fault.

~snerk~

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:44:04 -0400, OmDeFlume wrote:

Boat capsized, no ballast in tanks, "handles like a canoe."

Lousy sailboat, lousy powerboat.

There you go, passing judgment on something you know little or nothing
about. Shame on you, Harry.

There are some serious issues with the boat in question, especially
when overloaded, and especially when operated with no ballast. I've
had quite a bit of sailing experience and would not even consider
taking more than 4 or 5 people on a boat like that. The manufacturer
needs to do a lot more to raise safety awareness but they are intent
on selling the boat to the inexperienced who really want to believe
that it can do anything.

It is amazing how the "safety standards" are skewed for the big
manufacturers. I see plates on boats allowing 7-10 passengers but if I
built the same boat in the backyard and did the calculations, I wouldn't
be allowed to plate it for more than 4-5...

I_am_Tosk wrote:
In ,
says...
On Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:44:04 -0400, wrote:

Boat capsized, no ballast in tanks, "handles like a canoe."

Lousy sailboat, lousy powerboat.
There you go, passing judgment on something you know little or nothing
about. Shame on you, Harry.
There are some serious issues with the boat in question, especially
when overloaded, and especially when operated with no ballast. I've
had quite a bit of sailing experience and would not even consider
taking more than 4 or 5 people on a boat like that. The manufacturer
needs to do a lot more to raise safety awareness but they are intent
on selling the boat to the inexperienced who really want to believe
that it can do anything.

It is amazing how the "safety standards" are skewed for the big
manufacturers. I see plates on boats allowing 7-10 passengers but if I
built the same boat in the backyard and did the calculations, I wouldn't
be allowed to plate it for more than 4-5...


What manufactured boats allowing 7-10 passengers could you duplicate in
your back yard building?

John H wrote:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:44:04 -0400, wrote:

On 3/30/2011 11:20 AM, Harryk wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Mar 30, 10:50 am, wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Mar 30, 10:24 am, wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
The accident in San Diego Bay on a Mac26 sailboat where two died
causes my jaw to drop in wonder at the things people do. TEN PEOPLE
ON A 26' sailboat? NO, IT"S WORSE, THEY ARE DISABLED PEOPLE. I am
unable to think of an expletive sufficient to convey how insane this
was.
Sailing a small boat requires you to be cognitively and physically
able to respond to things rapidly. For this reason, I do not think
disabled people belong on small sailboats. Things can happen very
fast requiring one to act quickly.
In my 25 years of sailing, my wife has never understood why more than
two people aboard turns me into a nervous wreck but sailing requires
that you be able to reach all the controls all the time. Sure, the
cockpit may hold 6 people seated comfortably but that one obese
person
sitting in front of the starboard winch who cannot move unless
given a
5 minute warning effectively disables the boat. Two somewhat disabled
people in the cockpit and you should stay anchored.
Even able bodied people are a problem: "Yes, I know its comfy there
but going downwind sitting on the traveller may not be a good idea",
or "If you lean back any more your hair may get caught in the winch
and I'd hate to see you scalped" and then as their kids scramble over
the top of the cabin "IF you're going forward put on a harness for
gods sake".
How many people is too many? It has taken me 25 years to realize that
it is any number that distracts ANY of your attention from running
the
boat. Even worse for these guys in San Diego is that they chose a
boat that requires one more life and death adjustment, letting in the
ballast water. In all the commotion of getting all ten disabled
people situated, it would be easy to oversee that detail. Remember,
it isn't just ten people but they would all be wearing life jackets
making them take up more space. To make the situation much worse, San
Diego Bay is so crowded with traffic that you could walk across the
bay atop the decks of the moving boats. The captain was not just
totally distracted by his 10 disabled passengers but had to try to
pay
attention to the boat handling while also watching the traffic. I
think my face must go white every time I think about this nightmare
situation.
I don't disagree with some of what you posted, but I wouldn't go
out in
San Diego Bay in a Mac 26.
I know someone who sailed a Mac26 from Fort Lauderdale to Marsh HArbor
in the Bahamas. AFAIK, there has never been a Mac26 accident
involving equipment failure of the basic systems.
How many accidents have there been as a result of the poor seakeeping
qualities of the design?
No idea but this does not qualify as one. Almost any sailboat will
take far more than her owner will if the hatches are closed and she is
left to the wind and seas. The Mac26 has positive floatation so she
will always float and will right herself whereas most conventional
sailboats have heavy lead ballast that will become structurally
unstable when turned upside down. Almost all accidents occur when
trying to reach land and this is where the Mac26 does well with her
shoal draft being able to go into 1' of water, being beachable even.
A Mac26 would certainly do better at sea in a storm than a Parker
although I'd not try.

http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html


Boat capsized, no ballast in tanks, "handles like a canoe."

Lousy sailboat, lousy powerboat.
There you go, passing judgment on something you know little or nothing
about. Shame on you, Harry.

Overloaded, not ballasted, and skippered by a drunk.

Yup, must be the boat's fault.

~snerk~

Are you familiar with the hull design, Herring? Have you ever seen one
of these Mac26's out of the water? Did you examine the bottom?

Didn't think so.

When you pull up the daggerboard or whatever they call it, what you have
is a narrow, round-chined, pretty much radius bottomed boat that becomes
what some might call "tippy."

Stick to winterizing your outboard's cylinders with WD-40 or whatever
you thought you should use.

On Mar 30, 1:33*pm, Harryk wrote:
John H wrote:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:44:04 -0400, *wrote:

On 3/30/2011 11:20 AM, Harryk wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Mar 30, 10:50 am, *wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Mar 30, 10:24 am, *wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
The accident in San Diego Bay on a Mac26 sailboat where two died
causes my jaw to drop in wonder at the things people do. TEN PEOPLE
ON A 26' sailboat? NO, IT"S WORSE, THEY ARE DISABLED PEOPLE. I am
unable to think of an expletive sufficient to convey how insane this
was.
Sailing a small boat requires you to be cognitively and physically
able to respond to things rapidly. For this reason, I do not think
disabled people belong on small sailboats. Things can happen very
fast requiring one to act quickly.
In my 25 years of sailing, my wife has never understood why more than
two people aboard turns me into a nervous wreck but sailing requires
that you be able to reach all the controls all the time. Sure, the
cockpit may hold 6 people seated comfortably but that one obese
person
sitting in front of the starboard winch who cannot move unless
given a
5 minute warning effectively disables the boat. Two somewhat disabled
people in the cockpit and you should stay anchored.
Even able bodied people are a problem: "Yes, I know its comfy there
but going downwind sitting on the traveller may not be a good idea",
or "If you lean back any more your hair may get caught in the winch
and I'd hate to see you scalped" and then as their kids scramble over
the top of the cabin "IF you're going forward put on a harness for
gods sake".
How many people is too many? It has taken me 25 years to realize that
it is any number that distracts ANY of your attention from running
the
boat. Even worse for these guys in San Diego is that they chose a
boat that requires one more life and death adjustment, letting in the
ballast water. In all the commotion of getting all ten disabled
people situated, it would be easy to oversee that detail. Remember,
it isn't just ten people but they would all be wearing life jackets
making them take up more space. To make the situation much worse, San
Diego Bay is so crowded with traffic that you could walk across the
bay atop the decks of the moving boats. The captain was not just
totally distracted by his 10 disabled passengers but had to try to
pay
attention to the boat handling while also watching the traffic. I
think my face must go white every time I think about this nightmare
situation.
I don't disagree with some of what you posted, but I wouldn't go
out in
San Diego Bay in a Mac 26.
I know someone who sailed a Mac26 from Fort Lauderdale to Marsh HArbor
in the Bahamas. AFAIK, there has never been a Mac26 accident
involving equipment failure of the basic systems.
How many accidents have there been as a result of the poor seakeeping
qualities of the design?
No idea but this does not qualify as one. Almost any sailboat will
take far more than her owner will if the hatches are closed and she is
left to the wind and seas. The Mac26 has positive floatation so she
will always float and will right herself whereas most conventional
sailboats have heavy lead ballast that will become structurally
unstable when turned upside down. Almost all accidents occur when
trying to reach land and this is where the Mac26 does well with her
shoal draft being able to go into 1' of water, being beachable even.
A Mac26 would certainly do better at sea in a storm than a Parker
although I'd not try.

http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html

Boat capsized, no ballast in tanks, "handles like a canoe."

Lousy sailboat, lousy powerboat.
There you go, passing judgment on something you know little or nothing
about. Shame on you, Harry.

Overloaded, not ballasted, and skippered by a drunk.

Yup, must be the boat's fault.

~snerk~

Are you familiar with the hull design, Herring? Have you ever seen one
of these Mac26's out of the water? Did you examine the bottom?

Didn't think so.

When you pull up the daggerboard or whatever they call it, what you have
is a narrow, round-chined, pretty much radius bottomed boat that becomes
what some might call "tippy."

Stick to winterizing your outboard's cylinders with WD-40 or whatever
you thought you should use.

I have seen a MAc26 both in and out of the water and have toured one
although I have never sailed one. I'd like to charter one sometime.
I would buy an old one, re-do the rigging with slightly heavier stuff
and then add about 150 lbs of lead into the board.
Not only do I think it is a good design but I think it represents the
future of sailing. Just because tradition says so, there is no reason
why a sailboat has to be heavy and slow. Yes, she is a powerboat with
auxiliary sails but that is the point. A MAc26 would be the perfect
boat to explore the Abacos in the bahamas because with her board up
she draws about 1' and can go into the shallows. Board down with
ballast she can sail and not use expensive fuel.
A Mac 26 is made at least as well as a Hunter and maybe better. The
Mac26 I examined appeared to be made better than a new Catalina 25.
Would I take her offshore? Unmodified on a good day, sure. Modified
with some extra ballast, I'd sail one from Fl to the bahamas.
The average Mac 26 owner probably sails under more conditions and
places than the average conventional heavy weight boat because she is
ttrailerable and truly easy to set up.

In article ,
says...

John H wrote:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:44:04 -0400, wrote:

On 3/30/2011 11:20 AM, Harryk wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Mar 30, 10:50 am, wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Mar 30, 10:24 am, wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
The accident in San Diego Bay on a Mac26 sailboat where two died
causes my jaw to drop in wonder at the things people do. TEN PEOPLE
ON A 26' sailboat? NO, IT"S WORSE, THEY ARE DISABLED PEOPLE. I am
unable to think of an expletive sufficient to convey how insane this
was.
Sailing a small boat requires you to be cognitively and physically
able to respond to things rapidly. For this reason, I do not think
disabled people belong on small sailboats. Things can happen very
fast requiring one to act quickly.
In my 25 years of sailing, my wife has never understood why more than
two people aboard turns me into a nervous wreck but sailing requires
that you be able to reach all the controls all the time. Sure, the
cockpit may hold 6 people seated comfortably but that one obese
person
sitting in front of the starboard winch who cannot move unless
given a
5 minute warning effectively disables the boat. Two somewhat disabled
people in the cockpit and you should stay anchored.
Even able bodied people are a problem: "Yes, I know its comfy there
but going downwind sitting on the traveller may not be a good idea",
or "If you lean back any more your hair may get caught in the winch
and I'd hate to see you scalped" and then as their kids scramble over
the top of the cabin "IF you're going forward put on a harness for
gods sake".
How many people is too many? It has taken me 25 years to realize that
it is any number that distracts ANY of your attention from running
the
boat. Even worse for these guys in San Diego is that they chose a
boat that requires one more life and death adjustment, letting in the
ballast water. In all the commotion of getting all ten disabled
people situated, it would be easy to oversee that detail. Remember,
it isn't just ten people but they would all be wearing life jackets
making them take up more space. To make the situation much worse, San
Diego Bay is so crowded with traffic that you could walk across the
bay atop the decks of the moving boats. The captain was not just
totally distracted by his 10 disabled passengers but had to try to
pay
attention to the boat handling while also watching the traffic. I
think my face must go white every time I think about this nightmare
situation.
I don't disagree with some of what you posted, but I wouldn't go
out in
San Diego Bay in a Mac 26.
I know someone who sailed a Mac26 from Fort Lauderdale to Marsh HArbor
in the Bahamas. AFAIK, there has never been a Mac26 accident
involving equipment failure of the basic systems.
How many accidents have there been as a result of the poor seakeeping
qualities of the design?
No idea but this does not qualify as one. Almost any sailboat will
take far more than her owner will if the hatches are closed and she is
left to the wind and seas. The Mac26 has positive floatation so she
will always float and will right herself whereas most conventional
sailboats have heavy lead ballast that will become structurally
unstable when turned upside down. Almost all accidents occur when
trying to reach land and this is where the Mac26 does well with her
shoal draft being able to go into 1' of water, being beachable even.
A Mac26 would certainly do better at sea in a storm than a Parker
although I'd not try.

http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html


Boat capsized, no ballast in tanks, "handles like a canoe."

Lousy sailboat, lousy powerboat.
There you go, passing judgment on something you know little or nothing
about. Shame on you, Harry.

Overloaded, not ballasted, and skippered by a drunk.

Yup, must be the boat's fault.

~snerk~

Are you familiar with the hull design, Herring? Have you ever seen one
of these Mac26's out of the water? Did you examine the bottom?

Didn't think so.

When you pull up the daggerboard or whatever they call it, what you have
is a narrow, round-chined, pretty much radius bottomed boat that becomes
what some might call "tippy."

Stick to winterizing your outboard's cylinders with WD-40 or whatever
you thought you should use.

So, the skipper was drunk, no ballast, the boat was overloaded, but it's
the boat's fault???

In article 3a1d35ef-434d-4033-bbfe-cb44da3f5193
@s33g2000vbb.googlegroups.com, says...

On Mar 30, 1:33*pm, Harryk wrote:
John H wrote:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:44:04 -0400, *wrote:

On 3/30/2011 11:20 AM, Harryk wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Mar 30, 10:50 am, *wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Mar 30, 10:24 am, *wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
The accident in San Diego Bay on a Mac26 sailboat where two died
causes my jaw to drop in wonder at the things people do. TEN PEOPLE
ON A 26' sailboat? NO, IT"S WORSE, THEY ARE DISABLED PEOPLE. I am
unable to think of an expletive sufficient to convey how insane this
was.
Sailing a small boat requires you to be cognitively and physically
able to respond to things rapidly. For this reason, I do not think
disabled people belong on small sailboats. Things can happen very
fast requiring one to act quickly.
In my 25 years of sailing, my wife has never understood why more than
two people aboard turns me into a nervous wreck but sailing requires
that you be able to reach all the controls all the time. Sure, the
cockpit may hold 6 people seated comfortably but that one obese
person
sitting in front of the starboard winch who cannot move unless
given a
5 minute warning effectively disables the boat. Two somewhat disabled
people in the cockpit and you should stay anchored.
Even able bodied people are a problem: "Yes, I know its comfy there
but going downwind sitting on the traveller may not be a good idea",
or "If you lean back any more your hair may get caught in the winch
and I'd hate to see you scalped" and then as their kids scramble over
the top of the cabin "IF you're going forward put on a harness for
gods sake".
How many people is too many? It has taken me 25 years to realize that
it is any number that distracts ANY of your attention from running
the
boat. Even worse for these guys in San Diego is that they chose a
boat that requires one more life and death adjustment, letting in the
ballast water. In all the commotion of getting all ten disabled
people situated, it would be easy to oversee that detail. Remember,
it isn't just ten people but they would all be wearing life jackets
making them take up more space. To make the situation much worse, San
Diego Bay is so crowded with traffic that you could walk across the
bay atop the decks of the moving boats. The captain was not just
totally distracted by his 10 disabled passengers but had to try to
pay
attention to the boat handling while also watching the traffic. I
think my face must go white every time I think about this nightmare
situation.
I don't disagree with some of what you posted, but I wouldn't go
out in
San Diego Bay in a Mac 26.
I know someone who sailed a Mac26 from Fort Lauderdale to Marsh HArbor
in the Bahamas. AFAIK, there has never been a Mac26 accident
involving equipment failure of the basic systems.
How many accidents have there been as a result of the poor seakeeping
qualities of the design?
No idea but this does not qualify as one. Almost any sailboat will
take far more than her owner will if the hatches are closed and she is
left to the wind and seas. The Mac26 has positive floatation so she
will always float and will right herself whereas most conventional
sailboats have heavy lead ballast that will become structurally
unstable when turned upside down. Almost all accidents occur when
trying to reach land and this is where the Mac26 does well with her
shoal draft being able to go into 1' of water, being beachable even.
A Mac26 would certainly do better at sea in a storm than a Parker
although I'd not try.

http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html

Boat capsized, no ballast in tanks, "handles like a canoe."

Lousy sailboat, lousy powerboat.
There you go, passing judgment on something you know little or nothing
about. Shame on you, Harry.

Overloaded, not ballasted, and skippered by a drunk.

Yup, must be the boat's fault.

~snerk~

Are you familiar with the hull design, Herring? Have you ever seen one
of these Mac26's out of the water? Did you examine the bottom?

Didn't think so.

When you pull up the daggerboard or whatever they call it, what you have
is a narrow, round-chined, pretty much radius bottomed boat that becomes
what some might call "tippy."

Stick to winterizing your outboard's cylinders with WD-40 or whatever
you thought you should use.

I have seen a MAc26 both in and out of the water and have toured one
although I have never sailed one. I'd like to charter one sometime.
I would buy an old one, re-do the rigging with slightly heavier stuff
and then add about 150 lbs of lead into the board.
Not only do I think it is a good design but I think it represents the
future of sailing. Just because tradition says so, there is no reason
why a sailboat has to be heavy and slow. Yes, she is a powerboat with
auxiliary sails but that is the point. A MAc26 would be the perfect
boat to explore the Abacos in the bahamas because with her board up
she draws about 1' and can go into the shallows. Board down with
ballast she can sail and not use expensive fuel.
A Mac 26 is made at least as well as a Hunter and maybe better. The
Mac26 I examined appeared to be made better than a new Catalina 25.
Would I take her offshore? Unmodified on a good day, sure. Modified
with some extra ballast, I'd sail one from Fl to the bahamas.
The average Mac 26 owner probably sails under more conditions and
places than the average conventional heavy weight boat because she is
ttrailerable and truly easy to set up.

You have to remember, Harry is afraid of EVERYTHING!

"Harryk" wrote in message ...

I_am_Tosk wrote:
In ,
says...
On Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:44:04 -0400, wrote:

Boat capsized, no ballast in tanks, "handles like a canoe."

Lousy sailboat, lousy powerboat.
There you go, passing judgment on something you know little or nothing
about. Shame on you, Harry.
There are some serious issues with the boat in question, especially
when overloaded, and especially when operated with no ballast. I've
had quite a bit of sailing experience and would not even consider
taking more than 4 or 5 people on a boat like that. The manufacturer
needs to do a lot more to raise safety awareness but they are intent
on selling the boat to the inexperienced who really want to believe
that it can do anything.

It is amazing how the "safety standards" are skewed for the big
manufacturers. I see plates on boats allowing 7-10 passengers but if I
built the same boat in the backyard and did the calculations, I wouldn't
be allowed to plate it for more than 4-5...


What manufactured boats allowing 7-10 passengers could you duplicate in
your back yard building?

**********************

Maybe a scow or barge?? ;-)