OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

GM's Baltimore Plant Targeted for Closing
By JOHN PORRETTO, AP Auto Writer

DETROIT - General Motors Corp.'s 68-year-old Baltimore assembly plant is the
only major GM factory targeted for closing as part of the automaker's new
tentative agreement with the United Auto Workers, union leaders told local
presidents Sunday.



The local officers were in Detroit to hear highlights of the proposed
four-year labor pacts announced Thursday with GM, the world's largest
automaker, and major automotive supplier Delphi Corp.


According to a UAW-produced document prepared for the officers and obtained
by The Associated Press, GM has identified three facilities for shuttering:
the Baltimore plant, which has about 1,100 UAW workers; a powertrain plant
in Saginaw, Mich., with 378 employees; and the Argonaut Building, an aging
office structure in Detroit.


GM builds the Chevrolet Astro and GMC Safari vans in Baltimore. The plant's
future was uncertain because GM had no work assigned to it beyond 2005 - now
the year it will close.


During negotiations, Delphi, which was spun off from GM in 1999, proposed
the consolidation of six facilities, the document says. The supplier
proposed merging two plants in Flint; its Tuscaloosa, Ala., plant into an
operation in Lockport, N.Y.; and an Olathe, Kan., facility into Fitzgerald,
Ga.


"The UAW resisted this proposal and Delphi withdrew it," the UAW document
says. "Nevertheless, the company notified the union that it intends to raise
the issue of potential consolidation of these facilities during the term of
the 2003 agreement."


GM has 115,000 active UAW workers; Delphi has about 30,000.


Company representatives have declined to discuss details of the proposed
pacts.


The details are among the first to emerge about which operations the Big
Three automakers have targeted as part of four-year, tentative contracts
they reached with the union last week.


The new deals provide $3,000 signing bonuses, a second-year bonus tied to a
worker's rate of pay and wage increases of 2 percent and 3 percent,
respectively, in the third and fourth years of the contracts.


The UAW predicts the average production worker will realize additional
income of $17,400 over the life of the agreement.


That's not quite the per-worker boost of nearly $30,000 four years ago, but
the state of the domestic industry has changed significantly.


The late 1990s were prosperous times for GM, Ford and Chrysler, with money
rolling in on the sale of pricey sport utility vehicles and large pickup
trucks. Ford, for example, made $7.2 billion in 1999. In 2000 and 2001, the
world's second-largest automaker lost a combined $6.4 billion.


GM and Chrysler also made billions in 1999, but profits have shrunk in
recent years as Asian and European rivals have started building - and
selling - more vehicles in North America, including big pickups and SUVs.


Gains by foreign automakers were never more evident than in August, when the
Big Three's combined U.S. market share fell to its lowest level ever and
Toyota outsold Chrysler in a month for the first time.


Some analysts say the UAW and Big Three seemed to realize the time had come
for the two sides to work collectively against the foreign invasion.


The manufacturers and their suppliers are under intense pressure to reduce
overhead and improve productivity as Asian and European rivals continue to
expand in North America.





Ford and Chrysler also plan to sell or close several plants as part of
tentative agreements reached last week with the UAW. The goal is to reduce
the glut of North American manufacturing capacity and better align supply
and demand.

The 1999 pacts banned plant closings.

The UAW entered negotiations with GM wanting assurances that the automaker
would continue choosing Delphi for new business as opposed to nonunion
suppliers. GM is Delphi's biggest customer.

According to the UAW document, GM agreed to award about $1 billion in new
business to Delphi, though no timeframe was given. In exchange, the document
says, "the UAW and Delphi agreed to a series of actions aimed at making
Delphi a more quality-minded, competitive and viable company for the long
term."

The proposed four-year contracts between the UAW and GM, Ford, Chrysler,
Delphi and supplier Visteon Corp. still require ratification by
rank-and-file members. That process is expected to take place in the next
week. The deals cover more than 300,000 UAW workers and 500,000 retirees and
spouses.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

NOYB wrote:

GM's Baltimore Plant Targeted for Closing
By JOHN PORRETTO, AP Auto Writer

DETROIT - General Motors Corp.'s 68-year-old Baltimore assembly plant is the
only major GM factory targeted for closing as part of the automaker's new
tentative agreement with the United Auto Workers, union leaders told local
presidents Sunday.


A 68-year-old auto assembly plant? A plant built in the 1930s? A
pre-World War II factory?

No wonder GM finds it hard to compete. I'm sure it has been modernized
that plant over the years, but the age of the facility speaks volumes
about what is wrong with the management of America's car manufacturers.


--
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email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

GM's Baltimore Plant Targeted for Closing
By JOHN PORRETTO, AP Auto Writer

DETROIT - General Motors Corp.'s 68-year-old Baltimore assembly plant is
the
only major GM factory targeted for closing as part of the automaker's
new
tentative agreement with the United Auto Workers, union leaders told
local
presidents Sunday.


A 68-year-old auto assembly plant? A plant built in the 1930s? A
pre-World War II factory?

No wonder GM finds it hard to compete. I'm sure it has been modernized
that plant over the years, but the age of the facility speaks volumes
about what is wrong with the management of America's car manufacturers.


No kidding. Management should have shut it down years ago in favor of
opening a more profitable non-union plant. I guess it took 68 years of
"negotiations" with UAW to finally win concessions for closing the place.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

GM's Baltimore Plant Targeted for Closing
By JOHN PORRETTO, AP Auto Writer

DETROIT - General Motors Corp.'s 68-year-old Baltimore assembly plant is
the
only major GM factory targeted for closing as part of the automaker's
new
tentative agreement with the United Auto Workers, union leaders told
local
presidents Sunday.


A 68-year-old auto assembly plant? A plant built in the 1930s? A
pre-World War II factory?

No wonder GM finds it hard to compete. I'm sure it has been modernized
that plant over the years, but the age of the facility speaks volumes
about what is wrong with the management of America's car manufacturers.


No kidding. Management should have shut it down years ago in favor of
opening a more profitable non-union plant. I guess it took 68 years of
"negotiations" with UAW to finally win concessions for closing the place.


We need more evidence you are an anti-union asshole? You've already
proved it. I wonder how many active or retired union members you have as
patients.




--
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OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

Active? Probably close to zero...not counting NEA members. Retired?
Probably many...but I've always maintained that unions have had their
necessary place in history. Today, they're just a parasite on our economy.


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

GM's Baltimore Plant Targeted for Closing
By JOHN PORRETTO, AP Auto Writer

DETROIT - General Motors Corp.'s 68-year-old Baltimore assembly plant
is
the
only major GM factory targeted for closing as part of the automaker's
new
tentative agreement with the United Auto Workers, union leaders told
local
presidents Sunday.


A 68-year-old auto assembly plant? A plant built in the 1930s? A
pre-World War II factory?

No wonder GM finds it hard to compete. I'm sure it has been modernized
that plant over the years, but the age of the facility speaks volumes
about what is wrong with the management of America's car manufacturers.


No kidding. Management should have shut it down years ago in favor of
opening a more profitable non-union plant. I guess it took 68 years of
"negotiations" with UAW to finally win concessions for closing the
place.


We need more evidence you are an anti-union asshole? You've already
proved it. I wonder how many active or retired union members you have as
patients.




--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

NOYB wrote:

Active? Probably close to zero...not counting NEA members. Retired?
Probably many...but I've always maintained that unions have had their
necessary place in history. Today, they're just a parasite on our economy.


Unions are less a parasite on our economy than you are a parasite on our
society.



--
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email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

Active? Probably close to zero...not counting NEA members. Retired?
Probably many...but I've always maintained that unions have had their
necessary place in history. Today, they're just a parasite on our
economy.


Unions are less a parasite on our economy than you are a parasite on our
society.

Ahhhh. The Krause book of "relativisms" rears its head once again.

Other Harry relativisms:

"Unions don't steal as much as corporations"

"Union brass aren't as corrupt as corporate management"

"Unions are less a parasite...than you"

What he fails to realize is that, with each relativistic statement, he
admits that unions really are a corrupt bane on our nation.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

Active? Probably close to zero...not counting NEA members. Retired?
Probably many...but I've always maintained that unions have had their
necessary place in history. Today, they're just a parasite on our
economy.


Unions are less a parasite on our economy than you are a parasite on our
society.

Ahhhh. The Krause book of "relativisms" rears its head once again.



Puh-lease. You're a 30-year-old twerp with no life experiences who went
from college to Florida to be a dentist. Call back when you're 45 and
been kicked around a bit, eh?




--
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email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

Relax, Harry...I'm just "funnin' ya".

Glad your boats made it through Isabel intact.


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

Active? Probably close to zero...not counting NEA members. Retired?
Probably many...but I've always maintained that unions have had their
necessary place in history. Today, they're just a parasite on our
economy.


Unions are less a parasite on our economy than you are a parasite on
our
society.

Ahhhh. The Krause book of "relativisms" rears its head once again.



Puh-lease. You're a 30-year-old twerp with no life experiences who went
from college to Florida to be a dentist. Call back when you're 45 and
been kicked around a bit, eh?




--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

Active? Probably close to zero...not counting NEA members. Retired?
Probably many...but I've always maintained that unions have had their
necessary place in history. Today, they're just a parasite on our
economy.


Unions are less a parasite on our economy than you are a parasite on our
society.

Oh, that was really good Harry!

You really are slipping with your personal insults. You need to brush up for
the coming election season.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

That's how I see it.
The top management are so busy giving themselves outrageous bonuses that
there was little left to modernize plants.
Live for today...tomorrow will take care of it's self??

Harry Krause wrote in message
...
A 68-year-old auto assembly plant? A plant built in the 1930s? A
pre-World War II factory?

No wonder GM finds it hard to compete. I'm sure it has been modernized
that plant over the years, but the age of the facility speaks volumes
about what is wrong with the management of America's car manufacturers.


--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 01:42:13 +0000, NOYB wrote:

Active? Probably close to zero...not counting NEA members. Retired?
Probably many...but I've always maintained that unions have had their
necessary place in history. Today, they're just a parasite on our economy.

True, in many companies, but in others the same factors that made unions
necessary are still at work. Take your favorite Walmart, a company that
ignores the law and intimidates their workers to work of the clock,
perhaps a union should be in their future.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/clot..._sweatshop.cfm

http://threehegemons.tripod.com/thre...blog/id57.html

http://www.lieffcabraser.com/walmart%20lawsuit.htm

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

"NOYB" wrote in message news:8lsbb.21089
No wonder GM finds it hard to compete. I'm sure it has been modernized
that plant over the years, but the age of the facility speaks volumes
about what is wrong with the management of America's car manufacturers.


No kidding. Management should have shut it down years ago in favor of
opening a more profitable non-union plant. I guess it took 68 years of
"negotiations" with UAW to finally win concessions for closing the place.

Please provide ANY evidence that the plat was kept open for 68 years
because of "negotiations with the UAW to finally win concession for
closing the place."

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...
"NOYB" wrote in message news:8lsbb.21089
No wonder GM finds it hard to compete. I'm sure it has been modernized
that plant over the years, but the age of the facility speaks volumes
about what is wrong with the management of America's car
manufacturers.


No kidding. Management should have shut it down years ago in favor of
opening a more profitable non-union plant. I guess it took 68 years of
"negotiations" with UAW to finally win concessions for closing the
place.

Please provide...

No. *You* prove I'm wrong.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

No kidding. Management should have shut it down years ago in favor of
opening a more profitable non-union plant. I guess it took 68 years of
"negotiations" with UAW to finally win concessions for closing the place.

Please provide ANY evidence that the plat was kept open for 68 years
because of "negotiations with the UAW to finally win concession for
closing the place."

Yeah, that's it. The place was a big loser from day one, and GM would have
closed it right away except for the Union.
Nitrous leak in the office?

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
No kidding. Management should have shut it down years ago in favor of
opening a more profitable non-union plant. I guess it took 68 years of
"negotiations" with UAW to finally win concessions for closing the
place.

Please provide ANY evidence that the plat was kept open for 68 years
because of "negotiations with the UAW to finally win concession for
closing the place."

Yeah, that's it. The place was a big loser from day one, and GM would have
closed it right away except for the Union.

You don't think that hasn't happened? Why do you think GM won't close
plants that are less efficient and costly to run in favor of plants
somewhere else that are more efficient and less costly to run? Because the
Unions would strike if GM announced massive layoffs in a town that employs
thousands.

Remember our discussion about Boeing moving? And Boeing doesn't have the
union problems that GM does.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

You don't think that hasn't happened? Why do you think GM won't close
plants that are less efficient and costly to run in favor of plants
somewhere else that are more efficient and less costly to run? Because the
Unions would strike if GM announced massive layoffs in a town that employs
thousands.

Remember our discussion about Boeing moving? And Boeing doesn't have the
union problems that GM does.

GM has closed scores of plants over the years, and I would have to think the
union howled almost every time.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
You don't think that hasn't happened? Why do you think GM won't close
plants that are less efficient and costly to run in favor of plants
somewhere else that are more efficient and less costly to run? Because the
Unions would strike if GM announced massive layoffs in a town that employs
thousands.

Remember our discussion about Boeing moving? And Boeing doesn't have the
union problems that GM does.

GM has closed scores of plants over the years, and I would have to think the
union howled almost every time.

Blame both GM and the unions. The plant closing is due exclusively to neither party.

However, with increased automation in an attempt to cut costs, union labor workforces
have been cut...perhaps due to the high costs of those union workers.

One also has to wonder about the efficiency of an old plant like that and whether or
not GM attempted to modernize it to keep it as efficient as possible.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:22:46 GMT, "NOYB" wrote:


"basskisser" wrote in message
. com...
"NOYB" wrote in message news:8lsbb.21089
No wonder GM finds it hard to compete. I'm sure it has been modernized
that plant over the years, but the age of the facility speaks volumes
about what is wrong with the management of America's car
manufacturers.


No kidding. Management should have shut it down years ago in favor of
opening a more profitable non-union plant. I guess it took 68 years of
"negotiations" with UAW to finally win concessions for closing the
place.

Please provide...

No. *You* prove I'm wrong.

This is a logical fallacy called "shifting the burden of proof." The burden of
proving any assertion rests, by convention, with the person making the
assertion.

Furthermore, someone using this type of "fallacy of distraction" is trying to
hand the other person in the argument the very difficult task of "proving a
negative."

From the standpoint of credibility in any argument, it better to be ready to
substantiate an assertion, rather than trying to use any tactics of distraction.

Joe "Logic-R-Us" Parsons

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

"NOYB" wrote in message thlink.net...
"basskisser" wrote in message
om...
"NOYB" wrote in message news:8lsbb.21089
No wonder GM finds it hard to compete. I'm sure it has been modernized
that plant over the years, but the age of the facility speaks volumes
about what is wrong with the management of America's car
manufacturers.


No kidding. Management should have shut it down years ago in favor of
opening a more profitable non-union plant. I guess it took 68 years of
"negotiations" with UAW to finally win concessions for closing the
place.

Please provide...

No. *You* prove I'm wrong.
Umm, I wasn't the one who MADE such an ignorant statement. Now, do you
have ANY facts to back up YOUR statements?

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

"NOYB" wrote in message news:qQBbb.58380
No kidding. Management should have shut it down years ago in favor of
opening a more profitable non-union plant. I guess it took 68 years of
"negotiations" with UAW to finally win concessions for closing the
place.

Please provide...

No. *You* prove I'm wrong.

Okay:
From the Washington Post:

The 68-year-old plant produces the Chevrolet Astro and GMC Safari
full-sized vans. Sales of both vehicles have declined so sharply in
recent years that the plant had cut back from two shifts to one, the
official said.

Separately, Ford Motor Co. agreed in its tentative contract to keep
open a St. Louis assembly plant that it had proposed closing and to
shut down a plant in Loraine, Ohio, and move those workers to a
factory nearby. The news about the GM and Ford plants was reported by
Reuters.

The GM shutdown will further erode a key source of jobs for the
Baltimore area, economists said. "It's an awful blow to Maryland's
industrial base," said Richard Clinch, director of economic research
at the University of Baltimore. "For places like Baltimore, with a
large base of middle- to low-skilled workers, this is a huge blow."

The big, boxy Astro and Safari, the same basic vehicle built for
separate GM brands, lost their competitiveness as the market swung
heavily to minivans. The GM models ran up against popular foreign
rivals such as the Toyota Sienna, Nissan Qwest and Honda Odyssey.

The article further states:

In recent years, GM has been shifting toward flexible production at
newer plants instead of manufacturing one type of vehicle at its aging
factories. The strategy, aimed at boosting productivity, allows the
company to adjust swiftly to changing demand and make smaller numbers
of different types of vehicles.

"When they come up with a new vehicle, they don't make an investment
in a used factory, because of the embedded work practices, the
environment. It's very difficult bringing an old factory up to speed,"
said Rob Lachenauer, a vice president at the Boston Consulting Group

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

NOYB wrote:

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...
"NOYB" wrote in message news:8lsbb.21089
No wonder GM finds it hard to compete. I'm sure it has been modernized
that plant over the years, but the age of the facility speaks volumes
about what is wrong with the management of America's car
manufacturers.


No kidding. Management should have shut it down years ago in favor of
opening a more profitable non-union plant. I guess it took 68 years of
"negotiations" with UAW to finally win concessions for closing the
place.

Please provide...

No. *You* prove I'm wrong.




No one has to. You're 30 years old and have led a sheltered life. What
the hell would you know about working at an auto plant, or, for that
matter, any other factory job?

--
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OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

Blame both GM and the unions. The plant closing is due exclusively to neither
party.

However, with increased automation in an attempt to cut costs, union labor
workforces
have been cut...perhaps due to the high costs of those union workers.

One also has to wonder about the efficiency of an old plant like that and
whether or
not GM attempted to modernize it to keep it as efficient as possible.

I would have to agree. The way they make cars these days, it doesn't matter
very much if the guys on the line are getting
$8 an hour or a decent, living wage.

Being competitive today is more about robotics and automation than whether the
workforce has been hired for the lowest conceivable dollar. There aren't as
many man hours in a car as just several years ago.

The old plant was probably not suitable for upgrade to the next generation of
automation. That would be a death knell, even if they had convict labor working
for
35 cents an hour.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Blame both GM and the unions. The plant closing is due exclusively to neither
party.

However, with increased automation in an attempt to cut costs, union labor
workforces
have been cut...perhaps due to the high costs of those union workers.

One also has to wonder about the efficiency of an old plant like that and
whether or
not GM attempted to modernize it to keep it as efficient as possible.

I would have to agree. The way they make cars these days, it doesn't matter
very much if the guys on the line are getting
$8 an hour or a decent, living wage.

Being competitive today is more about robotics and automation than whether the
workforce has been hired for the lowest conceivable dollar. There aren't as
many man hours in a car as just several years ago.

The old plant was probably not suitable for upgrade to the next generation of
automation. That would be a death knell, even if they had convict labor working
for
35 cents an hour.



What auto worker do you know that is making $8/hour? Try $26-$30/hour plus another
$35/hour in benefits.
http://www.uaw.org/barg/03/barg02.cfm

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

Jim - wrote:

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Blame both GM and the unions. The plant closing is due exclusively to neither
party.

However, with increased automation in an attempt to cut costs, union labor
workforces
have been cut...perhaps due to the high costs of those union workers.

One also has to wonder about the efficiency of an old plant like that and
whether or
not GM attempted to modernize it to keep it as efficient as possible.

I would have to agree. The way they make cars these days, it doesn't matter
very much if the guys on the line are getting
$8 an hour or a decent, living wage.

Being competitive today is more about robotics and automation than whether the
workforce has been hired for the lowest conceivable dollar. There aren't as
many man hours in a car as just several years ago.

The old plant was probably not suitable for upgrade to the next generation of
automation. That would be a death knell, even if they had convict labor working
for
35 cents an hour.



What auto worker do you know that is making $8/hour? Try $26-$30/hour plus another
$35/hour in benefits.
http://www.uaw.org/barg/03/barg02.cfm



Poor Jim/Dennis...can't even compete with a blue collar auto worker.



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OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...
"NOYB" wrote in message news:8lsbb.21089
No wonder GM finds it hard to compete. I'm sure it has been
modernized
that plant over the years, but the age of the facility speaks
volumes
about what is wrong with the management of America's car
manufacturers.


No kidding. Management should have shut it down years ago in favor
of
opening a more profitable non-union plant. I guess it took 68 years
of
"negotiations" with UAW to finally win concessions for closing the
place.

Please provide...

No. *You* prove I'm wrong.




No one has to. You're 30 years old and have led a sheltered life. What
the hell would you know about working at an auto plant, or, for that
matter, any other factory job?

What would *you* know about it? You peck away at a keyboard, and before
that a type-writer, writing "we hate management" slogans meant to incite
anger in people out there doing real work. You represent a group that first
sparks the outrage, and then reaps the benefits in the form of union dues.
That makes you a low-life, exploitive, flim flam man...who's ****ed you
couldn't pass "p-chem" so that you could have pursued a "real" profession.
Your failed miserable life, combined with extreme Narcissistic Personality
Disorder, make you a time bomb ready to go off when it becomes apparent that
your entire life's "work" has gone for naught. Pretty sad...

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

The argument isn't about *if* the plant needed to be closed...but, rather,
about *why* it wasn't closed sooner. UAW has a history of pressuring GM
from closing many unproductive plants due to threats of a walk-out.



"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Blame both GM and the unions. The plant closing is due exclusively to
neither
party.

However, with increased automation in an attempt to cut costs, union
labor
workforces
have been cut...perhaps due to the high costs of those union workers.

One also has to wonder about the efficiency of an old plant like that and
whether or
not GM attempted to modernize it to keep it as efficient as possible.

I would have to agree. The way they make cars these days, it doesn't
matter
very much if the guys on the line are getting
$8 an hour or a decent, living wage.

Being competitive today is more about robotics and automation than whether
the
workforce has been hired for the lowest conceivable dollar. There aren't
as
many man hours in a car as just several years ago.

The old plant was probably not suitable for upgrade to the next generation
of
automation. That would be a death knell, even if they had convict labor
working
for
35 cents an hour.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Jim - wrote:

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Blame both GM and the unions. The plant closing is due exclusively to neither
party.

However, with increased automation in an attempt to cut costs, union labor
workforces
have been cut...perhaps due to the high costs of those union workers.

One also has to wonder about the efficiency of an old plant like that and
whether or
not GM attempted to modernize it to keep it as efficient as possible.

I would have to agree. The way they make cars these days, it doesn't matter
very much if the guys on the line are getting
$8 an hour or a decent, living wage.

Being competitive today is more about robotics and automation than whether the
workforce has been hired for the lowest conceivable dollar. There aren't as
many man hours in a car as just several years ago.

The old plant was probably not suitable for upgrade to the next generation of
automation. That would be a death knell, even if they had convict labor working
for
35 cents an hour.



What auto worker do you know that is making $8/hour? Try $26-$30/hour plus another
$35/hour in benefits.
http://www.uaw.org/barg/03/barg02.cfm



Poor Jim/Dennis...can't even compete with a blue collar auto worker.

Based on the intention of that remark, you obviously think little of the blue collar
auto worker you claim to defend. You are a total farce.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

"NOYB" wrote in message
link.net...

Your failed miserable life, combined with extreme Narcissistic Personality
Disorder, make you a time bomb ready to go off when it becomes apparent
that
your entire life's "work" has gone for naught. Pretty sad...

Even if true, still better than drilling rotten teeth.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

"jps" wrote in message
...
"NOYB" wrote in message
link.net...

Your failed miserable life, combined with extreme Narcissistic
Personality
Disorder, make you a time bomb ready to go off when it becomes apparent
that
your entire life's "work" has gone for naught. Pretty sad...

Even if true, still better than drilling rotten teeth.

Not really. With the advent of cosmetic dentistry, there's a certain
satisfaction in my work when the patient leaves my office sporting a big,
white Hollywood smile. With the the "only-go-to-the-dentist-when-it-hurts"
kind, there's a satisfaction in knowing that they aren't in pain any longer
when they leave. Either way, it's very fulFILLING (pun intended).

It must suck to be an "advocate for union membership"...and then see the
number of members reduced by more than 60% in the last 50 years.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

"Jim -" wrote in message
et...

Poor Jim/Dennis...can't even compete with a blue collar auto worker.

Based on the intention of that remark, you obviously think little of the
blue collar
auto worker you claim to defend. You are a total farce.


Notice that he never disputes the Dennis/Jim thing? Funny, him calling
someone else a farce. I'll bet he's neither Jim nor Dennis.

Maybe a wash out auto worker named Denice?

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

Maybe he's Skipper?


"jps" wrote in message
...
"Jim -" wrote in message
et...

Poor Jim/Dennis...can't even compete with a blue collar auto worker.

Based on the intention of that remark, you obviously think little of the
blue collar
auto worker you claim to defend. You are a total farce.


Notice that he never disputes the Dennis/Jim thing? Funny, him calling
someone else a farce. I'll bet he's neither Jim nor Dennis.

Maybe a wash out auto worker named Denice?

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

Cost of closing a plant is almost more than keeping it open. When the UAW
worker gets laid off, or furloughed, they get 95% of the pay they get when
working. Do not know for how long, but 2 years sticks in the memory. Then
the remaining workers go out for any perceived slight.
Bill

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Blame both GM and the unions. The plant closing is due exclusively to
neither
party.

However, with increased automation in an attempt to cut costs, union
labor
workforces
have been cut...perhaps due to the high costs of those union workers.

One also has to wonder about the efficiency of an old plant like that and
whether or
not GM attempted to modernize it to keep it as efficient as possible.

I would have to agree. The way they make cars these days, it doesn't
matter
very much if the guys on the line are getting
$8 an hour or a decent, living wage.

Being competitive today is more about robotics and automation than whether
the
workforce has been hired for the lowest conceivable dollar. There aren't
as
many man hours in a car as just several years ago.

The old plant was probably not suitable for upgrade to the next generation
of
automation. That would be a death knell, even if they had convict labor
working
for
35 cents an hour.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...
"NOYB" wrote in message news:8lsbb.21089
No wonder GM finds it hard to compete. I'm sure it has been
modernized
that plant over the years, but the age of the facility speaks
volumes
about what is wrong with the management of America's car
manufacturers.


No kidding. Management should have shut it down years ago in favor
of
opening a more profitable non-union plant. I guess it took 68 years
of
"negotiations" with UAW to finally win concessions for closing the
place.

Please provide...

No. *You* prove I'm wrong.




No one has to. You're 30 years old and have led a sheltered life. What
the hell would you know about working at an auto plant, or, for that
matter, any other factory job?

What would *you* know about it? You peck away at a keyboard, and before
that a type-writer, writing "we hate management" slogans meant to incite
anger in people out there doing real work. You represent a group that first
sparks the outrage, and then reaps the benefits in the form of union dues.
That makes you a low-life, exploitive, flim flam man...who's ****ed you
couldn't pass "p-chem" so that you could have pursued a "real" profession.
Your failed miserable life, combined with extreme Narcissistic Personality
Disorder, make you a time bomb ready to go off when it becomes apparent that
your entire life's "work" has gone for naught. Pretty sad...


I've had both factory and construction jobs, little boy.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

Jim - wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Jim - wrote:

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Blame both GM and the unions. The plant closing is due exclusively to neither
party.

However, with increased automation in an attempt to cut costs, union labor
workforces
have been cut...perhaps due to the high costs of those union workers.

One also has to wonder about the efficiency of an old plant like that and
whether or
not GM attempted to modernize it to keep it as efficient as possible.

I would have to agree. The way they make cars these days, it doesn't matter
very much if the guys on the line are getting
$8 an hour or a decent, living wage.

Being competitive today is more about robotics and automation than whether the
workforce has been hired for the lowest conceivable dollar. There aren't as
many man hours in a car as just several years ago.

The old plant was probably not suitable for upgrade to the next generation of
automation. That would be a death knell, even if they had convict labor working
for
35 cents an hour.



What auto worker do you know that is making $8/hour? Try $26-$30/hour plus another
$35/hour in benefits.
http://www.uaw.org/barg/03/barg02.cfm



Poor Jim/Dennis...can't even compete with a blue collar auto worker.

Based on the intention of that remark, you obviously think little of the blue collar
auto worker you claim to defend. You are a total farce.



Poor dumb Jim/Dennis. Incontinent to the end.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

jps wrote:

"Jim -" wrote in message
et...

Poor Jim/Dennis...can't even compete with a blue collar auto worker.

Based on the intention of that remark, you obviously think little of the
blue collar
auto worker you claim to defend. You are a total farce.


Notice that he never disputes the Dennis/Jim thing? Funny, him calling
someone else a farce. I'll bet he's neither Jim nor Dennis.

Maybe a wash out auto worker named Denice?



He's just another right-wing rectal fissure, full of pus.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

"NOYB" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Maybe he's Skipper?

Not a chance. This fluffer (I love that) makes Skippy look like a genius.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

Couldn't hold down a job, eh?


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...
"NOYB" wrote in message news:8lsbb.21089
No wonder GM finds it hard to compete. I'm sure it has been
modernized
that plant over the years, but the age of the facility speaks
volumes
about what is wrong with the management of America's car
manufacturers.


No kidding. Management should have shut it down years ago in
favor
of
opening a more profitable non-union plant. I guess it took 68
years
of
"negotiations" with UAW to finally win concessions for closing the
place.

Please provide...

No. *You* prove I'm wrong.




No one has to. You're 30 years old and have led a sheltered life. What
the hell would you know about working at an auto plant, or, for that
matter, any other factory job?

What would *you* know about it? You peck away at a keyboard, and before
that a type-writer, writing "we hate management" slogans meant to incite
anger in people out there doing real work. You represent a group that
first
sparks the outrage, and then reaps the benefits in the form of union
dues.
That makes you a low-life, exploitive, flim flam man...who's ****ed you
couldn't pass "p-chem" so that you could have pursued a "real"
profession.
Your failed miserable life, combined with extreme Narcissistic
Personality
Disorder, make you a time bomb ready to go off when it becomes apparent
that
your entire life's "work" has gone for naught. Pretty sad...


I've had both factory and construction jobs, little boy.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

NOYB wrote:

Couldn't hold down a job, eh?


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...
"NOYB" wrote in message news:8lsbb.21089
No wonder GM finds it hard to compete. I'm sure it has been
modernized
that plant over the years, but the age of the facility speaks
volumes
about what is wrong with the management of America's car
manufacturers.


No kidding. Management should have shut it down years ago in
favor
of
opening a more profitable non-union plant. I guess it took 68
years
of
"negotiations" with UAW to finally win concessions for closing the
place.

Please provide...

No. *You* prove I'm wrong.




No one has to. You're 30 years old and have led a sheltered life. What
the hell would you know about working at an auto plant, or, for that
matter, any other factory job?

What would *you* know about it? You peck away at a keyboard, and before
that a type-writer, writing "we hate management" slogans meant to incite
anger in people out there doing real work. You represent a group that
first
sparks the outrage, and then reaps the benefits in the form of union
dues.
That makes you a low-life, exploitive, flim flam man...who's ****ed you
couldn't pass "p-chem" so that you could have pursued a "real"
profession.
Your failed miserable life, combined with extreme Narcissistic
Personality
Disorder, make you a time bomb ready to go off when it becomes apparent
that
your entire life's "work" has gone for naught. Pretty sad...


I've had both factory and construction jobs, little boy.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.





Yeah, right. You see, I always wanted to be a dentist, because I have
this obsession with rotten teeth, bad breath, and inflicting dental pain.




--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT--Ouch! Right in Harry's backyard...
 

Harry,
Do you honest believe calling someone a fluffer has any content whatsoever.


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
jps wrote:

"Jim -" wrote in message
et...

Poor Jim/Dennis...can't even compete with a blue collar auto worker.

Based on the intention of that remark, you obviously think little of
the
blue collar
auto worker you claim to defend. You are a total farce.


Notice that he never disputes the Dennis/Jim thing? Funny, him calling
someone else a farce. I'll bet he's neither Jim nor Dennis.

Maybe a wash out auto worker named Denice?



He's just another right-wing rectal fissure, full of pus.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.