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The Ultimate Alternator Project
Those of you who followed along with the updates from our Caribbean
cruise earlier this year, may remember that we experienced some alternator issues along the way. This was disappointing for a number of reasons because we had already spent a fair amount of time, effort and boat bucks trying to find a high output alternator that was also durable. Our goal is to not run the generator at all when under way, and to minimize generator time when anchored. The potential savings on generator fuel and maintenance add up to a big number. To that end we've installed a 2,000 watt inverter and a bank of 8 golf cart batteries with a total capacity of about 1,000 amp-hours. The inverter and battery bank work well together but the batteries eventually need to be recharged, and when underway, the alternator needs to supply inverter amps, recharge amps and onboard house loads like navigation equipment, lights, auto pilot, engine room blowers, etc. Peak alternator loads can easily approach 250 amps and average well over half of that. To make a long story short, no automotive alternator that we've tried has been capable of these loads over a long period of time, even those that have been beefed up with heavy duty components. We burned out a total of 4 over the course of 6 months in the islands. Repair and replacement was problematic to say the least. After consulting with Tim, our cheerful, ever helpful, resident alternator expert on "rec.boats", and a number of other sources, I decided that a fresh approach was needed. Enter a company called Leece-Neville, a division of Prestolite, that has been making heavy duty alternators for a long time. LNs are used all over the world on fire trucks, ambulances, busses, big trucks, heavy duty construction machinery, etc. Their big alternators make everything else look like a toy, weigh over 35 pounds and are priced accordingly. Many of the really big ones are north of $2K at full retail. Thanks to the internet and EBAY however, they are now becoming available at more reasonable prices. I was recently able to buy a unit that had been remanufactured to like new condition for about $400, a bargain compared to some of our previous repair/replace experiences. It is rated at 270 amps continuously at high temperatures, and is designed for fire trucks, ambulances and busses. http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_products/specs.php?item_detail_id=951&item=A0014867JB&produ ct=ALTERNATOR There are some downside issues however: It is designed for a so called J180 mounting bracket; requires multiple drive belts since it can use as much as 6 or 7 horsepower; and is not ignition protected for gasoline engines. Ignition protection is not an issue for our diesels, and fortunately the front pulley on a Detroit 6-71 can accomodate up to three belts. The mounting bracket was problematic however since the existing mount was for a Delco 2 inch foot. In exchange for a sizable boat buck fraction, a local machine shop fabricated a custom made J180 bracket from 1/2 inch cold rolled steel. In combination with some Grade 8 steel mounting hardware and a new adjusting arm, everything is now solidly attached, lined up and looking good with 3 brand new Gates Green Stripe belts installed. In testing it has put out well over 200 amps while maintaining reasonable temperatures. Stay tuned for the long term durability reports... :-) New alternator and bracket prior to installation with a beverage can for size reference: http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3557/preinstallwithnewbracke.jpg After installation, with new HD belts and adjusting arm. The black detritus in the background is left over from the many previous alternators and belts which gave up their lives in that spot: http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/1462/installedimg0573.jpg Boat, with new alternator well hidden, docked last weekend on the Caloosahatchie River in southwestern Florida: http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/6797/img0567i.jpg |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
Wayne,
I think you are on the right track but those kind of currents indicate your ship voltage should be 24 volts not 12. I really like your golf battery solution. I hope your inverter is sinusoidal and not square wave, as the latter will play havoc with most electronics not to mention its RF generation. Just as a note, some of the popular computer UPS systems use 24V internal batteries. They are easy to modify for external power and they produce a clean sinusoidal output. Steve "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... Those of you who followed along with the updates from our Caribbean cruise earlier this year, may remember that we experienced some alternator issues along the way. This was disappointing for a number of reasons because we had already spent a fair amount of time, effort and boat bucks trying to find a high output alternator that was also durable. Our goal is to not run the generator at all when under way, and to minimize generator time when anchored. The potential savings on generator fuel and maintenance add up to a big number. To that end we've installed a 2,000 watt inverter and a bank of 8 golf cart batteries with a total capacity of about 1,000 amp-hours. The inverter and battery bank work well together but the batteries eventually need to be recharged, and when underway, the alternator needs to supply inverter amps, recharge amps and onboard house loads like navigation equipment, lights, auto pilot, engine room blowers, etc. Peak alternator loads can easily approach 250 amps and average well over half of that. To make a long story short, no automotive alternator that we've tried has been capable of these loads over a long period of time, even those that have been beefed up with heavy duty components. We burned out a total of 4 over the course of 6 months in the islands. Repair and replacement was problematic to say the least. After consulting with Tim, our cheerful, ever helpful, resident alternator expert on "rec.boats", and a number of other sources, I decided that a fresh approach was needed. Enter a company called Leece-Neville, a division of Prestolite, that has been making heavy duty alternators for a long time. LNs are used all over the world on fire trucks, ambulances, busses, big trucks, heavy duty construction machinery, etc. Their big alternators make everything else look like a toy, weigh over 35 pounds and are priced accordingly. Many of the really big ones are north of $2K at full retail. Thanks to the internet and EBAY however, they are now becoming available at more reasonable prices. I was recently able to buy a unit that had been remanufactured to like new condition for about $400, a bargain compared to some of our previous repair/replace experiences. It is rated at 270 amps continuously at high temperatures, and is designed for fire trucks, ambulances and busses. http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_products/specs.php?item_detail_id=951&item=A0014867JB&produ ct=ALTERNATOR There are some downside issues however: It is designed for a so called J180 mounting bracket; requires multiple drive belts since it can use as much as 6 or 7 horsepower; and is not ignition protected for gasoline engines. Ignition protection is not an issue for our diesels, and fortunately the front pulley on a Detroit 6-71 can accomodate up to three belts. The mounting bracket was problematic however since the existing mount was for a Delco 2 inch foot. In exchange for a sizable boat buck fraction, a local machine shop fabricated a custom made J180 bracket from 1/2 inch cold rolled steel. In combination with some Grade 8 steel mounting hardware and a new adjusting arm, everything is now solidly attached, lined up and looking good with 3 brand new Gates Green Stripe belts installed. In testing it has put out well over 200 amps while maintaining reasonable temperatures. Stay tuned for the long term durability reports... :-) New alternator and bracket prior to installation with a beverage can for size reference: http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3557/preinstallwithnewbracke.jpg After installation, with new HD belts and adjusting arm. The black detritus in the background is left over from the many previous alternators and belts which gave up their lives in that spot: http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/1462/installedimg0573.jpg Boat, with new alternator well hidden, docked last weekend on the Caloosahatchie River in southwestern Florida: http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/6797/img0567i.jpg |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 06:57:42 +0100, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote: I think you are on the right track but those kind of currents indicate your ship voltage should be 24 volts not 12. I really like your golf battery solution. I hope your inverter is sinusoidal and not square wave, as the latter will play havoc with most electronics not to mention its RF generation. Just as a note, some of the popular computer UPS systems use 24V internal batteries. They are easy to modify for external power and they produce a clean sinusoidal output. Yes, the inverter is sine wave output, and we have a smaller one for backup. I previously installled a modified sine wave inverter on our old boat and we had a number of issues with it. There's no longer a reason to go non-sine wave in my opinion since prices keep dropping on the electronics. I also agree that 24 volts would be desirable but that would have required a lot of modifications or setting up some sort of dual voltage system since everything on the boat is set up for 12 volts. It is much simpler having everything at one voltage even if not entirely optimal. I even considered a 48 volt inverter at one point with a totally isolated house bank to feed it. As it is the golf cart batts are less than 4 feet from the inverter and alternator, and everything is interconnected with 2/0 and 4/0 cables which minimizes IR losses. |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 00:05:25 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote: Those of you who followed along with the updates from our Caribbean cruise earlier this year, may remember that we experienced some alternator issues along the way. This was disappointing for a number of reasons because we had already spent a fair amount of time, effort and boat bucks trying to find a high output alternator that was also durable. Our goal is to not run the generator at all when under way, and to minimize generator time when anchored. The potential savings on generator fuel and maintenance add up to a big number. To that end we've installed a 2,000 watt inverter and a bank of 8 golf cart batteries with a total capacity of about 1,000 amp-hours. The inverter and battery bank work well together but the batteries eventually need to be recharged, and when underway, the alternator needs to supply inverter amps, recharge amps and onboard house loads like navigation equipment, lights, auto pilot, engine room blowers, etc. Peak alternator loads can easily approach 250 amps and average well over half of that. To make a long story short, no automotive alternator that we've tried has been capable of these loads over a long period of time, even those that have been beefed up with heavy duty components. We burned out a total of 4 over the course of 6 months in the islands. Repair and replacement was problematic to say the least. After consulting with Tim, our cheerful, ever helpful, resident alternator expert on "rec.boats", and a number of other sources, I decided that a fresh approach was needed. Enter a company called Leece-Neville, a division of Prestolite, that has been making heavy duty alternators for a long time. LNs are used all over the world on fire trucks, ambulances, busses, big trucks, heavy duty construction machinery, etc. Their big alternators make everything else look like a toy, weigh over 35 pounds and are priced accordingly. Many of the really big ones are north of $2K at full retail. Thanks to the internet and EBAY however, they are now becoming available at more reasonable prices. I was recently able to buy a unit that had been remanufactured to like new condition for about $400, a bargain compared to some of our previous repair/replace experiences. It is rated at 270 amps continuously at high temperatures, and is designed for fire trucks, ambulances and busses. http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_products/specs.php?item_detail_id=951&item=A0014867JB&produ ct=ALTERNATOR There are some downside issues however: It is designed for a so called J180 mounting bracket; requires multiple drive belts since it can use as much as 6 or 7 horsepower; and is not ignition protected for gasoline engines. Ignition protection is not an issue for our diesels, and fortunately the front pulley on a Detroit 6-71 can accomodate up to three belts. The mounting bracket was problematic however since the existing mount was for a Delco 2 inch foot. In exchange for a sizable boat buck fraction, a local machine shop fabricated a custom made J180 bracket from 1/2 inch cold rolled steel. In combination with some Grade 8 steel mounting hardware and a new adjusting arm, everything is now solidly attached, lined up and looking good with 3 brand new Gates Green Stripe belts installed. In testing it has put out well over 200 amps while maintaining reasonable temperatures. Stay tuned for the long term durability reports... :-) New alternator and bracket prior to installation with a beverage can for size reference: http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3557/preinstallwithnewbracke.jpg After installation, with new HD belts and adjusting arm. The black detritus in the background is left over from the many previous alternators and belts which gave up their lives in that spot: http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/1462/installedimg0573.jpg Boat, with new alternator well hidden, docked last weekend on the Caloosahatchie River in southwestern Florida: http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/6797/img0567i.jpg Did you know about these? http://www.balmar.net/Page13-98seriesalts.html |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 00:05:25 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote: Those of you who followed along with the updates from our Caribbean cruise earlier this year, may remember that we experienced some alternator issues along the way. This was disappointing for a number of reasons because we had already spent a fair amount of time, effort and boat bucks trying to find a high output alternator that was also durable. Our goal is to not run the generator at all when under way, and to minimize generator time when anchored. The potential savings on generator fuel and maintenance add up to a big number. To that end we've installed a 2,000 watt inverter and a bank of 8 golf cart batteries with a total capacity of about 1,000 amp-hours. The inverter and battery bank work well together but the batteries eventually need to be recharged, and when underway, the alternator needs to supply inverter amps, recharge amps and onboard house loads like navigation equipment, lights, auto pilot, engine room blowers, etc. Peak alternator loads can easily approach 250 amps and average well over half of that. To make a long story short, no automotive alternator that we've tried has been capable of these loads over a long period of time, even those that have been beefed up with heavy duty components. We burned out a total of 4 over the course of 6 months in the islands. Repair and replacement was problematic to say the least. After consulting with Tim, our cheerful, ever helpful, resident alternator expert on "rec.boats", and a number of other sources, I decided that a fresh approach was needed. Enter a company called Leece-Neville, a division of Prestolite, that has been making heavy duty alternators for a long time. LNs are used all over the world on fire trucks, ambulances, busses, big trucks, heavy duty construction machinery, etc. Their big alternators make everything else look like a toy, weigh over 35 pounds and are priced accordingly. Many of the really big ones are north of $2K at full retail. Thanks to the internet and EBAY however, they are now becoming available at more reasonable prices. I was recently able to buy a unit that had been remanufactured to like new condition for about $400, a bargain compared to some of our previous repair/replace experiences. It is rated at 270 amps continuously at high temperatures, and is designed for fire trucks, ambulances and busses. http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_products/specs.php?item_detail_id=951&item=A0014867JB&produ ct=ALTERNATOR There are some downside issues however: It is designed for a so called J180 mounting bracket; requires multiple drive belts since it can use as much as 6 or 7 horsepower; and is not ignition protected for gasoline engines. Ignition protection is not an issue for our diesels, and fortunately the front pulley on a Detroit 6-71 can accomodate up to three belts. The mounting bracket was problematic however since the existing mount was for a Delco 2 inch foot. In exchange for a sizable boat buck fraction, a local machine shop fabricated a custom made J180 bracket from 1/2 inch cold rolled steel. In combination with some Grade 8 steel mounting hardware and a new adjusting arm, everything is now solidly attached, lined up and looking good with 3 brand new Gates Green Stripe belts installed. In testing it has put out well over 200 amps while maintaining reasonable temperatures. Stay tuned for the long term durability reports... :-) New alternator and bracket prior to installation with a beverage can for size reference: http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3557/preinstallwithnewbracke.jpg After installation, with new HD belts and adjusting arm. The black detritus in the background is left over from the many previous alternators and belts which gave up their lives in that spot: http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/1462/installedimg0573.jpg Boat, with new alternator well hidden, docked last weekend on the Caloosahatchie River in southwestern Florida: http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/6797/img0567i.jpg I really like the dog retriever you've rigged there. Nice photos and interesting post. Thanks. -- Hope you're having a great day! John H |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
On 11/12/10 7:33 AM, W1TEF wrote:
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 00:05:25 -0500, Wayne.B wrote: New alternator and bracket prior to installation with a beverage can for size reference: http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3557/preinstallwithnewbracke.jpg Damn - that is a monster. Hopefully, it will work out. Nice pepsi wrapper on that beer can. :) |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 00:26:56 -0800, jps wrote:
Did you know about these? http://www.balmar.net/Page13-98seriesalts.html Yes. I installed a Balmar high output alternator on one of my old sail boats. That boat had an Atomic 4 gasoline engine and needed to have ignition protection which Balmar offered. I believe the 4000 series Leece-Nevilles are a better unit and I can buy 4 or 5 of them for the price of one Balmar. |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 07:45:32 -0500, HarryK wrote:
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3557/preinstallwithnewbracke.jpg Damn - that is a monster. Yes it is. It's just about all you can lift when you're working in a cramped location, but would you want anything less on your fire truck or ambulance? |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 06:45:28 -0800, Mark Borgerson
wrote: It looks like the right piece of equipment for the job----however, I find the washer stack and bolt on the belt-tensioning arm a bit troublesome. There's an inch or so of lever arm and it looks like about half an inch of thread into the alternator front plate. If that front plate is cast aluminum, how long will it be before that bolt loosens with thermal cycling and vibration? Good eye, was wondering if anyone would comment on that. It's not just a washer stack however. At this point it is more of a custom spacer since the SS washers are firmly stuck to each other with JB weld. I understand your point regarding long term stress on the adjusment tab and bolt. It would certainly be easy enough to get a longer bolt and put another washer/lock washer/lock nut combo on the other side of the tab. Good idea. For a few more boat bucks, you could replace the washer stack with steel block of the appropriate thickness---perhaps with some filed 'tooth' on each side. Spend a few more bucks and get a bolt a half inch longer. You might also have clearance for a thin nut on the front to act as a lock nut. When you're cranking out 200 amps, there's going to be substantial load on that bracket. TINS: Back in the 70's I drove a Chevy Vega with an aluminum block. That never gave me problems, but I did have an alternator problem. I was careful with belt tension and kept that bolt tight. However, the belt kept getting looser. I finally disassembled the system and found that the bottom of the alternator was pivoted on a 4" long steel pin through the alternator housing. The housing had worn away so that the 3/8" hole through the housing was now a slot about 3/8" wide and over 1/2" long. I had a similar issue with the alternator mount on our generator (40 hp Yanmar diesel), after about 3,000 hours. The mounting hole went egg shaped and was virtually impossible to replace since it was part of a casting on the front of the engine block. My local alternator shop came up with some SS circular shim stock just the right size for the mounting bolt. I cleaned up everything with acetone and bedded the shim stock into the mounting bracket with JB Weld. It has been working fine now for over 600 hours of run time. |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
Nice pix.
I'd be worried, however, about all the washers for depth. Not possible to build in a bend to the tightening arm to bring it flush to the alternator? L8R Skip -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog "Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats. In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not." |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... Those of you who followed along with the updates from our Caribbean cruise earlier this year, may remember that we experienced some alternator issues along the way. This was disappointing for a number of reasons because we had already spent a fair amount of time, effort and boat bucks trying to find a high output alternator that was also durable. (Trimmed here.) This is what you power-hog, environment-raping, motorboat cruisers should install. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...bus.jpg/220px- You use more power in your boat than the average small house uses. Pathetic! Try staying home, why don't you. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxiliary_power_unit Wilbur Hubbard |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com... "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... Those of you who followed along with the updates from our Caribbean cruise earlier this year, may remember that we experienced some alternator issues along the way. This was disappointing for a number of reasons because we had already spent a fair amount of time, effort and boat bucks trying to find a high output alternator that was also durable. (Trimmed here.) This is what you power-hog, environment-raping, motorboat cruisers should install. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...bus.jpg/220px- You use more power in your boat than the average small house uses. Pathetic! Try staying home, why don't you. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxiliary_power_unit Wilbur Hubbard Try this instead for the first link which is incomplete: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...APU-Airbus.jpg |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 07:56:20 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote: On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 00:26:56 -0800, jps wrote: Did you know about these? http://www.balmar.net/Page13-98seriesalts.html Yes. I installed a Balmar high output alternator on one of my old sail boats. That boat had an Atomic 4 gasoline engine and needed to have ignition protection which Balmar offered. I believe the 4000 series Leece-Nevilles are a better unit and I can buy 4 or 5 of them for the price of one Balmar. You have to know how to buy them. Not through the factory at retail, that's for sure. Not sure if he's still doing it but the owner used to bring all his returns, remanufactured to the annual sidewalk parts swap at Fisheries Supply. Prices were half or less and for every applications. Balmar units look great with the white finish and for us, made a significant dent in our genset hours. |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... You're going in the wrong direction. Using a huge battery bank kept charged by a heavy-duty alternator is still going to be inadequate for spoiled motor cruisers who really want a house with all the comforts of home that floats and goes from place to place. So, forget the huge battery bank and get one of these instead. (Save your auxiliary engines for moving the floating home from place to place.) https://secure.cascadesierrasolution...hp?prodId=0020 These tripacs are the cat's meow. They provide heat, air conditioning, battery charging all in one compact package. You see more and more of them on over-the-road tractor/trailers. "The TriPac APU provides ? cab heating and air conditioning ? truck engine block heating ? truck battery charging ? 12Von-board power ? optional 120V household electrical power "The system is powered by a diesel engine, running an automotive style 12V alternator and belt driven air conditioning compressor. The APU HVAC system is independent of the truck system. Cab heat is provided by a fuel-fired heater, and engine block heat is provided by exchanging coolant between the APU engine and the truck engine." I hope this helps. Wilbur Hubbard |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
"Mark Borgerson" wrote in message
... In article , says... Those of you who followed along with the updates from our Caribbean cruise earlier this year, may remember that we experienced some alternator issues along the way. This was disappointing for a number of reasons because we had already spent a fair amount of time, effort and boat bucks trying to find a high output alternator that was also durable. Our goal is to not run the generator at all when under way, and to minimize generator time when anchored. The potential savings on generator fuel and maintenance add up to a big number. To that end we've installed a 2,000 watt inverter and a bank of 8 golf cart batteries with a total capacity of about 1,000 amp-hours. The inverter and battery bank work well together but the batteries eventually need to be recharged, and when underway, the alternator needs to supply inverter amps, recharge amps and onboard house loads like navigation equipment, lights, auto pilot, engine room blowers, etc. Peak alternator loads can easily approach 250 amps and average well over half of that. To make a long story short, no automotive alternator that we've tried has been capable of these loads over a long period of time, even those that have been beefed up with heavy duty components. We burned out a total of 4 over the course of 6 months in the islands. Repair and replacement was problematic to say the least. After consulting with Tim, our cheerful, ever helpful, resident alternator expert on "rec.boats", and a number of other sources, I decided that a fresh approach was needed. Enter a company called Leece-Neville, a division of Prestolite, that has been making heavy duty alternators for a long time. LNs are used all over the world on fire trucks, ambulances, busses, big trucks, heavy duty construction machinery, etc. Their big alternators make everything else look like a toy, weigh over 35 pounds and are priced accordingly. Many of the really big ones are north of $2K at full retail. Thanks to the internet and EBAY however, they are now becoming available at more reasonable prices. I was recently able to buy a unit that had been remanufactured to like new condition for about $400, a bargain compared to some of our previous repair/replace experiences. It is rated at 270 amps continuously at high temperatures, and is designed for fire trucks, ambulances and busses. http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_products/specs.php?item_detail_id=951&item=A0014867JB&produ ct=ALTERNATOR There are some downside issues however: It is designed for a so called J180 mounting bracket; requires multiple drive belts since it can use as much as 6 or 7 horsepower; and is not ignition protected for gasoline engines. Ignition protection is not an issue for our diesels, and fortunately the front pulley on a Detroit 6-71 can accomodate up to three belts. The mounting bracket was problematic however since the existing mount was for a Delco 2 inch foot. In exchange for a sizable boat buck fraction, a local machine shop fabricated a custom made J180 bracket from 1/2 inch cold rolled steel. In combination with some Grade 8 steel mounting hardware and a new adjusting arm, everything is now solidly attached, lined up and looking good with 3 brand new Gates Green Stripe belts installed. In testing it has put out well over 200 amps while maintaining reasonable temperatures. Stay tuned for the long term durability reports... :-) New alternator and bracket prior to installation with a beverage can for size reference: http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3557/preinstallwithnewbracke.jpg After installation, with new HD belts and adjusting arm. The black detritus in the background is left over from the many previous alternators and belts which gave up their lives in that spot: http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/1462/installedimg0573.jpg It looks like the right piece of equipment for the job----however, I find the washer stack and bolt on the belt-tensioning arm a bit troublesome. There's an inch or so of lever arm and it looks like about half an inch of thread into the alternator front plate. If that front plate is cast aluminum, how long will it be before that bolt loosens with thermal cycling and vibration? For a few more boat bucks, you could replace the washer stack with steel block of the appropriate thickness---perhaps with some filed 'tooth' on each side. Spend a few more bucks and get a bolt a half inch longer. You might also have clearance for a thin nut on the front to act as a lock nut. When you're cranking out 200 amps, there's going to be substantial load on that bracket. TINS: Back in the 70's I drove a Chevy Vega with an aluminum block. That never gave me problems, but I did have an alternator problem. I was careful with belt tension and kept that bolt tight. However, the belt kept getting looser. I finally disassembled the system and found that the bottom of the alternator was pivoted on a 4" long steel pin through the alternator housing. The housing had worn away so that the 3/8" hole through the housing was now a slot about 3/8" wide and over 1/2" long. At the belt end, you could see the pin coming out of the side of the alternator housing. I replace the alternator and the new one lasted until the car was totaled by a teenager who ran a stop sign and crunched my passenger side quarter panel. Boat, with new alternator well hidden, docked last weekend on the Caloosahatchie River in southwestern Florida: http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/6797/img0567i.jpg Mark Borgerson I thought the same thing about the washers. I wonder if there is enough clearance to put a couple of bends in the tension adjuster arm to eliminate most or all of the spacer washers. If necessary, a stiffener bar could be welded to the back of the arm. |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:28:30 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message tanews.com... "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... Those of you who followed along with the updates from our Caribbean cruise earlier this year, may remember that we experienced some alternator issues along the way. This was disappointing for a number of reasons because we had already spent a fair amount of time, effort and boat bucks trying to find a high output alternator that was also durable. (Trimmed here.) This is what you power-hog, environment-raping, motorboat cruisers should install. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...bus.jpg/220px- You use more power in your boat than the average small house uses. Pathetic! Try staying home, why don't you. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxiliary_power_unit Wilbur Hubbard Try this instead for the first link which is incomplete: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...APU-Airbus.jpg That'd double the value of Wayne's boat! |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
In article s.com,
llid says... "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... You're going in the wrong direction. Using a huge battery bank kept charged by a heavy-duty alternator is still going to be inadequate for spoiled motor cruisers who really want a house with all the comforts of home that floats and goes from place to place. So, forget the huge battery bank and get one of these instead. (Save your auxiliary engines for moving the floating home from place to place.) https://secure.cascadesierrasolution...hp?prodId=0020 These tripacs are the cat's meow. They provide heat, air conditioning, battery charging all in one compact package. You see more and more of them on over-the-road tractor/trailers. "The TriPac APU provides ? cab heating and air conditioning ? truck engine block heating ? truck battery charging ? 12Von-board power ? optional 120V household electrical power "The system is powered by a diesel engine, running an automotive style 12V alternator and belt driven air conditioning compressor. The APU HVAC system is independent of the truck system. Cab heat is provided by a fuel-fired heater, and engine block heat is provided by exchanging coolant between the APU engine and the truck engine." I hope this helps. Wilbur Hubbard Are they approved for marine use? Can you operate them in an enclosed engine room or do you have to hang it off the gunwale? |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
"BAR" wrote in message
. .. In article s.com, llid says... "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... You're going in the wrong direction. Using a huge battery bank kept charged by a heavy-duty alternator is still going to be inadequate for spoiled motor cruisers who really want a house with all the comforts of home that floats and goes from place to place. So, forget the huge battery bank and get one of these instead. (Save your auxiliary engines for moving the floating home from place to place.) https://secure.cascadesierrasolution...hp?prodId=0020 These tripacs are the cat's meow. They provide heat, air conditioning, battery charging all in one compact package. You see more and more of them on over-the-road tractor/trailers. "The TriPac APU provides ? cab heating and air conditioning ? truck engine block heating ? truck battery charging ? 12Von-board power ? optional 120V household electrical power "The system is powered by a diesel engine, running an automotive style 12V alternator and belt driven air conditioning compressor. The APU HVAC system is independent of the truck system. Cab heat is provided by a fuel-fired heater, and engine block heat is provided by exchanging coolant between the APU engine and the truck engine." I hope this helps. Wilbur Hubbard Are they approved for marine use? Can you operate them in an enclosed engine room or do you have to hang it off the gunwale? You'd have to duct it and exhaust it to the outside via cowlings and forced air but it would provide the electricity to do that, no problem. As for some government, marine use approval, who cares? It's high time the government took a hike out of our everyday personal lives with their red tape. A commercial boat is one thing, a private yacht is another thing entirely. Wilbur Hubbard |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
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The Ultimate Alternator Project
"BAR" wrote in message
. .. In article s.com, llid says... Are they approved for marine use? Can you operate them in an enclosed engine room or do you have to hang it off the gunwale? You'd have to duct it and exhaust it to the outside via cowlings and forced air but it would provide the electricity to do that, no problem. As for some government, marine use approval, who cares? It's high time the government took a hike out of our everyday personal lives with their red tape. A commercial boat is one thing, a private yacht is another thing entirely. Your insurance company cares. I don't do insurance. Never have, never will. Insurance is a giant rip-off. Just go downtown in most any big city and some of the biggest, most expensive buildings will be banks and insurance companies. That should give you a clue as the giant swindle that is called insurance. If you wish to swell their coffers so be it but I will not. Wilbur Hubbard (self-insured) |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
On 11/12/10 1:47 PM, Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
wrote in message . .. In . octanews.com, llid says... Are they approved for marine use? Can you operate them in an enclosed engine room or do you have to hang it off the gunwale? You'd have to duct it and exhaust it to the outside via cowlings and forced air but it would provide the electricity to do that, no problem. As for some government, marine use approval, who cares? It's high time the government took a hike out of our everyday personal lives with their red tape. A commercial boat is one thing, a private yacht is another thing entirely. Your insurance company cares. I don't do insurance. Never have, never will. Insurance is a giant rip-off. Just go downtown in most any big city and some of the biggest, most expensive buildings will be banks and insurance companies. That should give you a clue as the giant swindle that is called insurance. If you wish to swell their coffers so be it but I will not. Wilbur Hubbard (self-insured) Are you "self-insured" for liability, too? |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
"HarryK" wrote in message
... On 11/12/10 1:47 PM, Wilbur Hubbard wrote: wrote in message . .. In . octanews.com, llid says... Are they approved for marine use? Can you operate them in an enclosed engine room or do you have to hang it off the gunwale? You'd have to duct it and exhaust it to the outside via cowlings and forced air but it would provide the electricity to do that, no problem. As for some government, marine use approval, who cares? It's high time the government took a hike out of our everyday personal lives with their red tape. A commercial boat is one thing, a private yacht is another thing entirely. Your insurance company cares. I don't do insurance. Never have, never will. Insurance is a giant rip-off. Just go downtown in most any big city and some of the biggest, most expensive buildings will be banks and insurance companies. That should give you a clue as the giant swindle that is called insurance. If you wish to swell their coffers so be it but I will not. Wilbur Hubbard (self-insured) Are you "self-insured" for liability, too? Yes. That's one of the good things about being self-insured. Ridiculous, million-dollar lawsuits for stubbed toes and the like are not worth filing so they are not forthcoming. Other, more serious things can be and should be anticipated and eliminated. Safe boating is no accident. Insurance very often CAUSES accidents. How many times have you heard some insured idiot say something like, "I don't really care about that; that's why I have insurance," and off he goes engaging in the same, old, dangerous routine. Insurance is socialism and socialism doesn't work. Wilbur Hubbard. |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
On 11/12/10 1:56 PM, Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
wrote in message ... On 11/12/10 1:47 PM, Wilbur Hubbard wrote: wrote in message . .. In . octanews.com, llid says... Are they approved for marine use? Can you operate them in an enclosed engine room or do you have to hang it off the gunwale? You'd have to duct it and exhaust it to the outside via cowlings and forced air but it would provide the electricity to do that, no problem. As for some government, marine use approval, who cares? It's high time the government took a hike out of our everyday personal lives with their red tape. A commercial boat is one thing, a private yacht is another thing entirely. Your insurance company cares. I don't do insurance. Never have, never will. Insurance is a giant rip-off. Just go downtown in most any big city and some of the biggest, most expensive buildings will be banks and insurance companies. That should give you a clue as the giant swindle that is called insurance. If you wish to swell their coffers so be it but I will not. Wilbur Hubbard (self-insured) Are you "self-insured" for liability, too? Yes. That's one of the good things about being self-insured. Ridiculous, million-dollar lawsuits for stubbed toes and the like are not worth filing so they are not forthcoming. Other, more serious things can be and should be anticipated and eliminated. Safe boating is no accident. Insurance very often CAUSES accidents. How many times have you heard some insured idiot say something like, "I don't really care about that; that's why I have insurance," and off he goes engaging in the same, old, dangerous routine. Insurance is socialism and socialism doesn't work. Wilbur Hubbard. "Insurance is socialism." I've not heard that before in regard to liability coverage. I'm a careful boater; I've never damaged my boat or anyone else's, nor has anyone been injured on any of my boats over a long boating life. My insurance rates are pretty low. I don't mind paying the premiums, because even the most careful boater can be found liable in case of an accident, and an accident can happen to anyone. I wouldn't want to be boating anywhere near you. |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
"HarryK" wrote in message
... On 11/12/10 1:56 PM, Wilbur Hubbard wrote: wrote in message ... On 11/12/10 1:47 PM, Wilbur Hubbard wrote: wrote in message . .. In . octanews.com, llid says... Are they approved for marine use? Can you operate them in an enclosed engine room or do you have to hang it off the gunwale? You'd have to duct it and exhaust it to the outside via cowlings and forced air but it would provide the electricity to do that, no problem. As for some government, marine use approval, who cares? It's high time the government took a hike out of our everyday personal lives with their red tape. A commercial boat is one thing, a private yacht is another thing entirely. Your insurance company cares. I don't do insurance. Never have, never will. Insurance is a giant rip-off. Just go downtown in most any big city and some of the biggest, most expensive buildings will be banks and insurance companies. That should give you a clue as the giant swindle that is called insurance. If you wish to swell their coffers so be it but I will not. Wilbur Hubbard (self-insured) Are you "self-insured" for liability, too? Yes. That's one of the good things about being self-insured. Ridiculous, million-dollar lawsuits for stubbed toes and the like are not worth filing so they are not forthcoming. Other, more serious things can be and should be anticipated and eliminated. Safe boating is no accident. Insurance very often CAUSES accidents. How many times have you heard some insured idiot say something like, "I don't really care about that; that's why I have insurance," and off he goes engaging in the same, old, dangerous routine. Insurance is socialism and socialism doesn't work. Wilbur Hubbard. "Insurance is socialism." I've not heard that before in regard to liability coverage. I'm a careful boater; I've never damaged my boat or anyone else's, nor has anyone been injured on any of my boats over a long boating life. My insurance rates are pretty low. I don't mind paying the premiums, because even the most careful boater can be found liable in case of an accident, and an accident can happen to anyone. I wouldn't want to be boating anywhere near you. Do you have a USCG Master's license? Do you possess an intimate understanding of the Rules of the Road? I do. If not, it is I who would rather not be anywhere near you or your insured boat. Your reliance on insurance tells me that you may well represent a hazard to navigation. It is better to avoid a collision than to have the means to pay for some of the damage to property, life and limb after years of extended after the fact litigation Get a clue. Who wins? Lawyers and the insurance company! Who loses? Both parties involved in the collision. Wilbur Hubbard |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
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The Ultimate Alternator Project
"Gene" wrote in message ... On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 14:25:30 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: Do you have a USCG Master's license? Do you possess an intimate understanding of the Rules of the Road? I do. I do, too..... and I wouldn't dare own or operate a boat without sufficient insurance coverage. ESPECIALLY, commercially.... I can only assume a few things: One, you don't own a boat large enough to be kept in dry or wet storage. If you did, you'd be required by the marina to carry insurance...or Second, you have no assets and no real concern of liability.... can't squeeze blood from a turnip....or Third, you are so fabulously wealthy that not even an accident and subsequent fuel spill wouldn't faze you....or Fourth, most likely, you are infallible and inviolably lucky..... If I have the right guy... he owns a 27' mustard yellow Coronado sailboat c/w mauve interior that he keeps moored back in a swampy backwater in Florida. He has no fears because no one would bother to sue him for that boat or his postman's pension. |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:26:03 -0500, Gene
wrote: On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 14:25:30 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: Do you have a USCG Master's license? Do you possess an intimate understanding of the Rules of the Road? I do. I do, too..... and I wouldn't dare own or operate a boat without sufficient insurance coverage. ESPECIALLY, commercially.... I can only assume a few things: One, you don't own a boat large enough to be kept in dry or wet storage. If you did, you'd be required by the marina to carry insurance...or Second, you have no assets and no real concern of liability.... can't squeeze blood from a turnip....or Third, you are so fabulously wealthy that not even an accident and subsequent fuel spill wouldn't faze you....or Fourth, most likely, you are infallible and inviolably lucky..... I like the last, if his infallibility extends to more than just encyclicals. -- Hope you're having a great day! John H |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
On 11/12/10 7:19 PM, John H wrote:
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:26:03 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 14:25:30 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: Do you have a USCG Master's license? Do you possess an intimate understanding of the Rules of the Road? I do. I do, too..... and I wouldn't dare own or operate a boat without sufficient insurance coverage. ESPECIALLY, commercially.... I can only assume a few things: One, you don't own a boat large enough to be kept in dry or wet storage. If you did, you'd be required by the marina to carry insurance...or Second, you have no assets and no real concern of liability.... can't squeeze blood from a turnip....or Third, you are so fabulously wealthy that not even an accident and subsequent fuel spill wouldn't faze you....or Fourth, most likely, you are infallible and inviolably lucky..... I like the last, if his infallibility extends to more than just encyclicals. Pope Wilbur I? |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:53:47 -0500, Gene
wrote: personally, I would have machined that out of one piece and employed healthy sized radii...... it may be fine..... but, I worry.... Gene, I'd be happy to send you some drawings if you'd like to cut some metal on my behalf. It's a fairly simple piece with only a few critical dimensions. |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:28:55 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote: All the more reason to increase battery bank capacity. !,500AH-1,600AH would be a good match to take advantage of that 200A output. We have no problem figuring out where to put the 200 amps when underway. The inverter pulls down about 80 to 100 amps powering the fridge, freezers and nav computers. Recharging the inverter batts from the previous night can use 20 to 100 amps. House loads from nav gear, auto pilot, lights, radios, radar, engine room blowers, etc., can take another 30 amps. |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:26:03 -0500, Gene
wrote: On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 14:25:30 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: Do you have a USCG Master's license? Do you possess an intimate understanding of the Rules of the Road? I do. I do, too..... and I wouldn't dare own or operate a boat without sufficient insurance coverage. ESPECIALLY, commercially.... I can only assume a few things: One, you don't own a boat large enough to be kept in dry or wet storage. If you did, you'd be required by the marina to carry insurance...or Second, you have no assets and no real concern of liability.... can't squeeze blood from a turnip....or Third, you are so fabulously wealthy that not even an accident and subsequent fuel spill wouldn't faze you....or Fourth, most likely, you are infallible and inviolably lucky..... Number 2 is spot on. |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
"Wayne.B" wrote: We have no problem figuring out where to put the 200 amps when underway. ------------------- Get back to me in a couple of years. Your boat's electrical system is not the same as a transit bus; however, you are applying bus design requirements to your boat. Bottom line: You simply can't have too big a house bank on a boat. A fact of battery life often forgotten is that for every 100AH taken out of a battery, you must replace it with 125AH. The maintained recharge rate of a house bank is 15%. IOW, the max sustained recharge rate for 1,000 AH bank is about 150A. You can take all the games regulator people try to promote and put them where the moon doesn't shine. When it comes to wet cell batteries, there is no free lunch. Have fun. Lew |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
YukonBound wrote:
"Gene" wrote in message ... On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 14:25:30 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: Do you have a USCG Master's license? Do you possess an intimate understanding of the Rules of the Road? I do. I do, too..... and I wouldn't dare own or operate a boat without sufficient insurance coverage. ESPECIALLY, commercially.... I can only assume a few things: One, you don't own a boat large enough to be kept in dry or wet storage. If you did, you'd be required by the marina to carry insurance...or Second, you have no assets and no real concern of liability.... can't squeeze blood from a turnip....or Third, you are so fabulously wealthy that not even an accident and subsequent fuel spill wouldn't faze you....or Fourth, most likely, you are infallible and inviolably lucky..... If I have the right guy... he owns a 27' mustard yellow Coronado sailboat c/w mauve interior that he keeps moored back in a swampy backwater in Florida. He has no fears because no one would bother to sue him for that boat or his postman's pension. Nice job improving the group, dummy! |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
Hello:
*To that end we've installed a 2,000 watt inverter and a bank of 8 golf cart batteries with a total capacity of about 1,000 amp-hours. * Peak alternator loads can easily approach 250 amps and average well over half of that. There are some downside issues however: * and fortunately the front pulley on a Detroit 6-71 can accomodate up to three belts. In testing it has put out well over 200 amps while maintaining reasonable temperatures. * Stay tuned for the long term durability reports... * * :-) Most older homes had a 100 amp load center. For the last 30 years a 200 load center (braker panel) is the residential standard. I rewired my home 10 years ago and the union journyman electrition installed a 200 amp panel. The home was 2600 sq ft.. With the greatest respect. Why would you need MORE amps than the common 2600 sq ft home ? Id think at that point it would make more since to install a dedicated hard wired diesel powered generator. When you start taking parts of a 71 series Detroit Id think you would have realized your trying to get an elephant to ballance on a football. Yours truely, Bob |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... You're going in the wrong direction. Using a huge battery bank kept charged by a heavy-duty alternator is still going to be inadequate for spoiled motor cruisers who really want a house with all the comforts of home that floats and goes from place to place. So, forget the huge battery bank and get one of these instead. (Save your auxiliary engines for moving the floating home from place to place.) https://secure.cascadesierrasolution...hp?prodId=0020 These tripacs are the cat's meow. They provide heat, air conditioning, battery charging all in one compact package. You see more and more of them on over-the-road tractor/trailers. "The TriPac APU provides ? cab heating and air conditioning ? truck engine block heating ? truck battery charging ? 12Von-board power ? optional 120V household electrical power "The system is powered by a diesel engine, running an automotive style 12V alternator and belt driven air conditioning compressor. The APU HVAC system is independent of the truck system. Cab heat is provided by a fuel-fired heater, and engine block heat is provided by exchanging coolant between the APU engine and the truck engine." I hope this helps. Wilbur Hubbard Other than the 420 pounds (and $9800) - sweet! -- Richard Lamb email me: web site: www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
"HarryK" wrote in message ... On 11/12/10 1:47 PM, Wilbur Hubbard wrote: wrote in message . .. In . octanews.com, llid says... Are they approved for marine use? Can you operate them in an enclosed engine room or do you have to hang it off the gunwale? You'd have to duct it and exhaust it to the outside via cowlings and forced air but it would provide the electricity to do that, no problem. As for some government, marine use approval, who cares? It's high time the government took a hike out of our everyday personal lives with their red tape. A commercial boat is one thing, a private yacht is another thing entirely. Your insurance company cares. I don't do insurance. Never have, never will. Insurance is a giant rip-off. Just go downtown in most any big city and some of the biggest, most expensive buildings will be banks and insurance companies. That should give you a clue as the giant swindle that is called insurance. If you wish to swell their coffers so be it but I will not. Wilbur Hubbard (self-insured) Are you "self-insured" for liability, too? Yes. That's one of the good things about being self-insured. Ridiculous, million-dollar lawsuits for stubbed toes and the like are not worth filing so they are not forthcoming. Other, more serious things can be and should be anticipated and eliminated. Safe boating is no accident. Insurance very often CAUSES accidents. How many times have you heard some insured idiot say something like, "I don't really care about that; that's why I have insurance," and off he goes engaging in the same, old, dangerous routine. Insurance is socialism and socialism doesn't work. Wilbur Hubbard. Ok, what have you done with the real Wilbur? -- Richard Lamb email me: web site: www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote: We have no problem figuring out where to put the 200 amps when underway. ------------------- Get back to me in a couple of years. Your boat's electrical system is not the same as a transit bus; however, you are applying bus design requirements to your boat. Bottom line: You simply can't have too big a house bank on a boat. A fact of battery life often forgotten is that for every 100AH taken out of a battery, you must replace it with 125AH. The maintained recharge rate of a house bank is 15%. IOW, the max sustained recharge rate for 1,000 AH bank is about 150A. You can take all the games regulator people try to promote and put them where the moon doesn't shine. When it comes to wet cell batteries, there is no free lunch. Have fun. Lew Point, match, set... -- Richard Lamb email me: web site: www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
"I am Tosk" wrote in message ... In article , says... YukonBound wrote: "Gene" wrote in message ... On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 14:25:30 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: Do you have a USCG Master's license? Do you possess an intimate understanding of the Rules of the Road? I do. I do, too..... and I wouldn't dare own or operate a boat without sufficient insurance coverage. ESPECIALLY, commercially.... I can only assume a few things: One, you don't own a boat large enough to be kept in dry or wet storage. If you did, you'd be required by the marina to carry insurance...or Second, you have no assets and no real concern of liability.... can't squeeze blood from a turnip....or Third, you are so fabulously wealthy that not even an accident and subsequent fuel spill wouldn't faze you....or Fourth, most likely, you are infallible and inviolably lucky..... If I have the right guy... he owns a 27' mustard yellow Coronado sailboat c/w mauve interior that he keeps moored back in a swampy backwater in Florida. He has no fears because no one would bother to sue him for that boat or his postman's pension. Nice job improving the group, dummy! Donnie seems to keep getting a pass... -- Rowdy Mouse Racing - Pain is temporary, Glory is forever! A pass at what? I've was called names half a dozen times yesterday by the group dysfunctional..... and no one says boo about it. Maybe he's one of your aliens................. ~~ snerk ~~ |
The Ultimate Alternator Project
On Nov 13, 7:00*am, "YukonBound" wrote:
"I am Tosk" wrote in l-september.org... In article , says... YukonBound wrote: "Gene" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 14:25:30 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: Do you have a USCG Master's license? Do you possess an intimate understanding of the Rules of the Road? *I do. I do, too..... and I wouldn't dare own or operate a boat without sufficient insurance coverage. ESPECIALLY, commercially.... I can only assume a few *things: One, you don't own a boat large enough to be kept in dry or wet storage. If you did, you'd be required by the marina to carry insurance...or Second, you have no assets and no real concern of liability.... can't squeeze blood from a turnip....or Third, you are so fabulously wealthy that not even an accident and subsequent fuel spill wouldn't faze you....or Fourth, most likely, you are infallible and inviolably lucky..... If I have the right guy... he owns a 27' mustard yellow Coronado sailboat c/w mauve interior that he keeps moored back in a swampy backwater in Florida. He has no fears because no one would bother to sue him *for that boat or his postman's pension. Nice job improving the group, dummy! Donnie seems to keep getting a pass... -- Rowdy Mouse Racing - Pain is temporary, Glory is forever! A pass at what? I've was called names half a dozen times yesterday by the group dysfunctional..... *and no one says boo about it. Maybe he's one of your aliens................. *~~ snerk ~~- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Quit your crying and join the group... no excuses... |
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