wrote in message
...
On Sun, 3 Oct 2010 20:58:06 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 3 Oct 2010 14:24:17 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

In any case, it's pretty evenly divided between public and private. Of
course, the teacher's unions are evil, right?


Of course.
All I have to point to is our standing in the world (#23 or 26
depending on who you believe) and the amount of money we spend(#2 per
student).
Education rates worse than health care in that regard and we know how
you feel about health care.

It is not just the union but the total lack of "management" in US
education.
They spend about 60% of all the school tax money on administration but
they don't have any managers.
People who can't do, teach
Teachers who can't teach become administrators.

So, much of the money spent on administration and infrastructure (esp.)
is
wasted? Hardly. And, hate to break it to you... the teachers and the
administration are TWO different entities. So, administration = no
management. Tell that to the principals.

Principals are not really managers. They generally have no business
sense or experience yet they are typically running a $5 million dollar
enterprise. (the average "in school" spending per school in our school
system)

So, you think having an MBA as a manager is going to make for a better
education? What do you think this MBA is going to do to promote a better
education vs. someone who is an educator by trade?

No but I think a real manager would help.
Someone who has actually been successful running a business

Well, who are you going to call? Ghostbusters? FYI, education isn't a
business. It doesn't need to show a financial profit. It's a societal
imperative.

It was MBAs who ran the economy into the ground.

So, it's people who are trained to run a business who are at fault for
running the economy into the ground. I guess that would include Bush.

"Real educators" are not the people I want running the largest food
outlet in my county or running the largest bus system. I don't want
them running a $100,000,000 maintenance department and I don't want
them making real estate decisions about the two billion dollars worth
of property they own.

Real educators don't "run" any of those things directly. They administer a
system, and most have years of experience doing it. But, you'd rather have
who do it exactly. So far, you've said "real managers." Who would they be?
How are they trained?

Unfortunately the vertical integration caused by the fact that you
can't go very far in the education department without being a teacher
assures we have people running it with absolutely zero management
experience.

? So, how would you structure a $multi-billion system? You have to use
someone?

Who do you think she be doing the teaching if not the teachers? Then,
you
claim they should be administrators!

This argument makes no sense. The expression is pretty hollow.

The failed teachers should just be sent on their way, not made
"managers". The reality is you can't fire a bad teacher so you have to
promote them.

Huh? Who's the manager now?? The principal? You're saying failed teachers
are promoted to ??


You can't do much of anything in the education establishment if you
are not a former teacher.

And, your point?

The reality is there are no managers in most school systems.School
boards have billion dollar budgets and nobody there seems capable of
efficiently managing that $1.428 billion budget (what my county
spends). We are the #40 school system. 39 spend more than we do.
If I was the king, the first thing I would do to cut education
spending would be to privatize the food, the busses and maintaining
the property. That alone is over a half a billion in our system and
all of them are horribly managed.

Depends on if there enough safeguards in place. That means regulation and
oversight. Who, pray tell, will be doing that?


Busses are regulated by the department of transportation and the
public services administration. Food is regulated by the health
department. EXCEPT IN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM.

Busses are beholden to the same regulations that any other vehicle on the
road follows. Food is regulated (not all that well) by the FDA. Not sure
what you're getting at. Are you trying to claim that a school administrator
can feed children uninspected (regulation-wise) chicken????

Is that really oversight? There are as many if not more stories about
tainted food being served in schools and dangerous busses in school
systems as there are in the private sector.

So, what you're really talking about is the decision of WHAT food is
given/sold to kids. That should be up to nutritionists in concert with
budget issues.

The maintenance department is simply a government boondoggle and a
private company could do a better job for half the money, still
returning money to stock holders. That is simple to evaluate. Either
the roof leaks or it doesn't, the light bulbs get replaced or they
don't. Tracking trouble calls, response times, cycle times, cost and
customer satisfaction are very easy to document.
That is a very well developed business model in the private sector
that just seems to baffle government maintenance operations.

So, schools that are underfunded are out of luck I suppose. You're going to
take the budget responsibilities away from the local officials and give it
to who?

This very much sounds like a rant. Who exactly are you angry with and why?
What did they do to you? Do you have any solutions or is it just privatize
everything?

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message ...

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 3 Oct 2010 20:58:06 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Sun, 3 Oct 2010 14:24:17 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

In any case, it's pretty evenly divided between public and private. Of
course, the teacher's unions are evil, right?


Of course.
All I have to point to is our standing in the world (#23 or 26
depending on who you believe) and the amount of money we spend(#2 per
student).
Education rates worse than health care in that regard and we know how
you feel about health care.

It is not just the union but the total lack of "management" in US
education.
They spend about 60% of all the school tax money on administration but
they don't have any managers.
People who can't do, teach
Teachers who can't teach become administrators.

So, much of the money spent on administration and infrastructure (esp.)
is
wasted? Hardly. And, hate to break it to you... the teachers and the
administration are TWO different entities. So, administration = no
management. Tell that to the principals.

Principals are not really managers. They generally have no business
sense or experience yet they are typically running a $5 million dollar
enterprise. (the average "in school" spending per school in our school
system)

So, you think having an MBA as a manager is going to make for a better
education? What do you think this MBA is going to do to promote a better
education vs. someone who is an educator by trade?

No but I think a real manager would help.
Someone who has actually been successful running a business

Well, who are you going to call? Ghostbusters? FYI, education isn't a
business. It doesn't need to show a financial profit. It's a societal
imperative.

It was MBAs who ran the economy into the ground.

So, it's people who are trained to run a business who are at fault for
running the economy into the ground. I guess that would include Bush.

"Real educators" are not the people I want running the largest food
outlet in my county or running the largest bus system. I don't want
them running a $100,000,000 maintenance department and I don't want
them making real estate decisions about the two billion dollars worth
of property they own.

Real educators don't "run" any of those things directly. They administer a
system, and most have years of experience doing it. But, you'd rather have
who do it exactly. So far, you've said "real managers." Who would they be?
How are they trained?

Unfortunately the vertical integration caused by the fact that you
can't go very far in the education department without being a teacher
assures we have people running it with absolutely zero management
experience.

? So, how would you structure a $multi-billion system? You have to use
someone?

Who do you think she be doing the teaching if not the teachers? Then,
you
claim they should be administrators!

This argument makes no sense. The expression is pretty hollow.

The failed teachers should just be sent on their way, not made
"managers". The reality is you can't fire a bad teacher so you have to
promote them.

Huh? Who's the manager now?? The principal? You're saying failed teachers
are promoted to ??


You can't do much of anything in the education establishment if you
are not a former teacher.

And, your point?

The reality is there are no managers in most school systems.School
boards have billion dollar budgets and nobody there seems capable of
efficiently managing that $1.428 billion budget (what my county
spends). We are the #40 school system. 39 spend more than we do.
If I was the king, the first thing I would do to cut education
spending would be to privatize the food, the busses and maintaining
the property. That alone is over a half a billion in our system and
all of them are horribly managed.

Depends on if there enough safeguards in place. That means regulation and
oversight. Who, pray tell, will be doing that?


Busses are regulated by the department of transportation and the
public services administration. Food is regulated by the health
department. EXCEPT IN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM.

Busses are beholden to the same regulations that any other vehicle on the
road follows. Food is regulated (not all that well) by the FDA. Not sure
what you're getting at. Are you trying to claim that a school administrator
can feed children uninspected (regulation-wise) chicken????

Is that really oversight? There are as many if not more stories about
tainted food being served in schools and dangerous busses in school
systems as there are in the private sector.

So, what you're really talking about is the decision of WHAT food is
given/sold to kids. That should be up to nutritionists in concert with
budget issues.

The maintenance department is simply a government boondoggle and a
private company could do a better job for half the money, still
returning money to stock holders. That is simple to evaluate. Either
the roof leaks or it doesn't, the light bulbs get replaced or they
don't. Tracking trouble calls, response times, cycle times, cost and
customer satisfaction are very easy to document.
That is a very well developed business model in the private sector
that just seems to baffle government maintenance operations.

So, schools that are underfunded are out of luck I suppose. You're going to
take the budget responsibilities away from the local officials and give it
to who?

This very much sounds like a rant. Who exactly are you angry with and why?
What did they do to you? Do you have any solutions or is it just privatize
everything?



Bottom line Pumpkin, is that you think public school systems are doing fine just the way they are. Watch out fer Obama. He be going to go in and CHANGE everything to suit himself. You be watching out fer it. Ya Heah.

--
I'm the real Harry, and I post from a PC or a MAC, as virtually everyone knows.
If a post is attributed to me, and it isn't from a PC or a MAC, it's from an ID
spoofer who hasn't the balls to post with his current ID
Boatless Harry

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 3 Oct 2010 23:46:17 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

No but I think a real manager would help.
Someone who has actually been successful running a business

Well, who are you going to call? Ghostbusters? FYI, education isn't a
business. It doesn't need to show a financial profit. It's a societal
imperative.


"Profit" is a red herring. How about just running your operation
within it's budget?

It was MBAs who ran the economy into the ground.

So, it's people who are trained to run a business who are at fault for
running the economy into the ground. I guess that would include Bush.

Absolutely GW Bush is a prime example of your typical MBA
They learn a lot about creative ways of raising capital and how to
game the system but they don't learn much about the day to day of
running a business.

Most MBAs do learn much about and run businesses. Bush just happened to be
really bad at it.


"Real educators" are not the people I want running the largest food
outlet in my county or running the largest bus system. I don't want
them running a $100,000,000 maintenance department and I don't want
them making real estate decisions about the two billion dollars worth
of property they own.

Real educators don't "run" any of those things directly. They administer a
system, and most have years of experience doing it. But, you'd rather have
who do it exactly. So far, you've said "real managers." Who would they be?
How are they trained?


The school board executives are always going to be teachers who have
come up through the system.

Really? Always? Perhaps not.

http://www.mnmsba.org/Public/Publica...cationsID=2287


Unfortunately the vertical integration caused by the fact that you
can't go very far in the education department without being a teacher
assures we have people running it with absolutely zero management
experience.

? So, how would you structure a $multi-billion system? You have to use
someone?

To start with they should divest everything that is not actually
teaching in the classroom. Get a bus company to run the busses, get a
real estate maintenance company to take care of the physical plant and
get a food service company to run the food. Even our boated military
does that.

Many school districts do just that. Many don't. This is a local issue,
unless you're advocating Federal control.

Personally I prefer vouchers and private or charter schools but i'm
sure that just makes your head explode.

I don't think vouchers are the right way. Many arguments exist pro and con.
Private schools are there and work fine, as do charter schools. This doesn't
have much to do with cost containment though.

Who do you think she be doing the teaching if not the teachers? Then,
you
claim they should be administrators!

This argument makes no sense. The expression is pretty hollow.

The failed teachers should just be sent on their way, not made
"managers". The reality is you can't fire a bad teacher so you have to
promote them.

Huh? Who's the manager now?? The principal? You're saying failed
teachers
are promoted to ??


You can't do much of anything in the education establishment if you
are not a former teacher.

And, your point?

It is very easy in my school district, you can just look at the bio of
all of the salaried administration. What county are you in, I am sure
it is online. These folks like any opportunity to show off their
diplomas and "classroom
cred"

Some are, some aren't former teachers. Again, I don't see your point. They
were elected. You don't believe the elections were fair?

http://www.placercoe.k12.ca.us/Gover...Education.aspx

The reality is there are no managers in most school systems.School
boards have billion dollar budgets and nobody there seems capable of
efficiently managing that $1.428 billion budget (what my county
spends). We are the #40 school system. 39 spend more than we do.
If I was the king, the first thing I would do to cut education
spending would be to privatize the food, the busses and maintaining
the property. That alone is over a half a billion in our system and
all of them are horribly managed.

Depends on if there enough safeguards in place. That means regulation
and
oversight. Who, pray tell, will be doing that?


Busses are regulated by the department of transportation and the
public services administration. Food is regulated by the health
department. EXCEPT IN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM.

Busses are beholden to the same regulations that any other vehicle on the
road follows. Food is regulated (not all that well) by the FDA. Not sure
what you're getting at. Are you trying to claim that a school
administrator
can feed children uninspected (regulation-wise) chicken????

I can't speak for California but in Florida the school system has
their own inspectors. (Building, health, bus etc)
It is not an issue about the quality of the operations as much as the
cost.


The maintenance department is simply a government boondoggle and a
private company could do a better job for half the money, still
returning money to stock holders. That is simple to evaluate. Either
the roof leaks or it doesn't, the light bulbs get replaced or they
don't. Tracking trouble calls, response times, cycle times, cost and
customer satisfaction are very easy to document.
That is a very well developed business model in the private sector
that just seems to baffle government maintenance operations.

So, schools that are underfunded are out of luck I suppose. You're going
to
take the budget responsibilities away from the local officials and give it
to who?


If they can't afford to hire out these services to someone who can do
it cheaper, how can they possibly afford to be operating the
department themselves at a higher cost?

Huh? Maybe there is nothing cheaper? I don't see any citations that show
this is a problem.

This very much sounds like a rant. Who exactly are you angry with and why?
What did they do to you? Do you have any solutions or is it just privatize
everything?

I am angry with a 1.42 billion school budget and being at the bottom
of the pile in student achievement. Then you find out that only about
40% of that money actually goes to teaching kids. The rest gets
gobbled up in the administration. They are doing a lot of things that
would be better in private hands.

Well, what percentage of the military goes to fighting? The overhead is
enormous. That's true of most companies.

In the case of the government doing mundane things, that is usually
the best solution.

Like what? What do you consider mundane?

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 4 Oct 2010 15:56:47 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..

The school board executives are always going to be teachers who have
come up through the system.

Really? Always? Perhaps not.

http://www.mnmsba.org/Public/Publica...cationsID=2287



I am talking about the salaried administrators, not the elected school
board members.
School boards themselves are just political hacks.
It is the most powerful position a nobody can be elected into and it
is not really that hard to do. Most people do not have a clue who they
are voting for or why.


Unfortunately the vertical integration caused by the fact that you
can't go very far in the education department without being a teacher
assures we have people running it with absolutely zero management
experience.

? So, how would you structure a $multi-billion system? You have to use
someone?

To start with they should divest everything that is not actually
teaching in the classroom. Get a bus company to run the busses, get a
real estate maintenance company to take care of the physical plant and
get a food service company to run the food. Even our boated military
does that.

Many school districts do just that. Many don't. This is a local issue,
unless you're advocating Federal control.


I have never heard of one that had anything but a totally integrated
school board operation.
I suppose it is possible but I just have not seen it in DC, Maryland
or Florida.


It is very easy in my school district, you can just look at the bio of
all of the salaried administration. What county are you in, I am sure
it is online. These folks like any opportunity to show off their
diplomas and "classroom
cred"

Some are, some aren't former teachers. Again, I don't see your point. They
were elected. You don't believe the elections were fair?

http://www.placercoe.k12.ca.us/Gover...Education.aspx



You missed "salaried administrators" I guess.

So, schools that are underfunded are out of luck I suppose. You're going
to
take the budget responsibilities away from the local officials and give
it
to who?


If they can't afford to hire out these services to someone who can do
it cheaper, how can they possibly afford to be operating the
department themselves at a higher cost?

Huh? Maybe there is nothing cheaper? I don't see any citations that show
this is a problem.

Have you ever actually looked at your school board's budget? I haven't
done it for a whole but a while ago I spent several days going over
it, just seeing where the money was going. They pay outrageous prices
for things and people like bus mechanics that would be making $15-20
an hour in the private sector (at that time) were making $40.



In the case of the government doing mundane things, that is usually
the best solution.

Like what? What do you consider mundane?

Busses, food, building maintenance, things that there are lots of
people doing in the private sector for half the money.

Well, point us to the administrators? Who the heck are you talking about??

If you're so upset, why don't you run for the SB office? You can claim
you're not just a political hack.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 4 Oct 2010 22:52:41 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

Like what? What do you consider mundane?

Busses, food, building maintenance, things that there are lots of
people doing in the private sector for half the money.

Well, point us to the administrators? Who the heck are you talking about??

The administrators are those thousand people who work in the central
administration building who are not reelected every 4 years.

Thousand? In one school district? Maybe in Los Angeles?


If you're so upset, why don't you run for the SB office? You can claim
you're not just a political hack.


I have too much "history" to ever run for office. ;-)

heh - So did Bush! (no comparison intended)

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 3 Oct 2010 23:46:17 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

No but I think a real manager would help.
Someone who has actually been successful running a business

Well, who are you going to call? Ghostbusters? FYI, education isn't a
business. It doesn't need to show a financial profit. It's a societal
imperative.


"Profit" is a red herring. How about just running your operation
within it's budget?

It was MBAs who ran the economy into the ground.

So, it's people who are trained to run a business who are at fault for
running the economy into the ground. I guess that would include Bush.

Absolutely GW Bush is a prime example of your typical MBA
They learn a lot about creative ways of raising capital and how to
game the system but they don't learn much about the day to day of
running a business.

"Real educators" are not the people I want running the largest food
outlet in my county or running the largest bus system. I don't want
them running a $100,000,000 maintenance department and I don't want
them making real estate decisions about the two billion dollars worth
of property they own.

Real educators don't "run" any of those things directly. They administer a
system, and most have years of experience doing it. But, you'd rather have
who do it exactly. So far, you've said "real managers." Who would they be?
How are they trained?


The school board executives are always going to be teachers who have
come up through the system.


Unfortunately the vertical integration caused by the fact that you
can't go very far in the education department without being a teacher
assures we have people running it with absolutely zero management
experience.

? So, how would you structure a $multi-billion system? You have to use
someone?

To start with they should divest everything that is not actually
teaching in the classroom. Get a bus company to run the busses, get a
real estate maintenance company to take care of the physical plant and
get a food service company to run the food. Even our boated military
does that.

Personally I prefer vouchers and private or charter schools but i'm
sure that just makes your head explode.

Who do you think she be doing the teaching if not the teachers? Then,
you
claim they should be administrators!

This argument makes no sense. The expression is pretty hollow.

The failed teachers should just be sent on their way, not made
"managers". The reality is you can't fire a bad teacher so you have to
promote them.

Huh? Who's the manager now?? The principal? You're saying failed teachers
are promoted to ??


You can't do much of anything in the education establishment if you
are not a former teacher.

And, your point?

It is very easy in my school district, you can just look at the bio of
all of the salaried administration. What county are you in, I am sure
it is online. These folks like any opportunity to show off their
diplomas and "classroom
cred"

The reality is there are no managers in most school systems.School
boards have billion dollar budgets and nobody there seems capable of
efficiently managing that $1.428 billion budget (what my county
spends). We are the #40 school system. 39 spend more than we do.
If I was the king, the first thing I would do to cut education
spending would be to privatize the food, the busses and maintaining
the property. That alone is over a half a billion in our system and
all of them are horribly managed.

Depends on if there enough safeguards in place. That means regulation and
oversight. Who, pray tell, will be doing that?


Busses are regulated by the department of transportation and the
public services administration. Food is regulated by the health
department. EXCEPT IN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM.

Busses are beholden to the same regulations that any other vehicle on the
road follows. Food is regulated (not all that well) by the FDA. Not sure
what you're getting at. Are you trying to claim that a school administrator
can feed children uninspected (regulation-wise) chicken????

I can't speak for California but in Florida the school system has
their own inspectors. (Building, health, bus etc)
It is not an issue about the quality of the operations as much as the
cost.


The maintenance department is simply a government boondoggle and a
private company could do a better job for half the money, still
returning money to stock holders. That is simple to evaluate. Either
the roof leaks or it doesn't, the light bulbs get replaced or they
don't. Tracking trouble calls, response times, cycle times, cost and
customer satisfaction are very easy to document.
That is a very well developed business model in the private sector
that just seems to baffle government maintenance operations.

So, schools that are underfunded are out of luck I suppose. You're going to
take the budget responsibilities away from the local officials and give it
to who?


If they can't afford to hire out these services to someone who can do
it cheaper, how can they possibly afford to be operating the
department themselves at a higher cost?

This very much sounds like a rant. Who exactly are you angry with and why?
What did they do to you? Do you have any solutions or is it just privatize
everything?

I am angry with a 1.42 billion school budget and being at the bottom
of the pile in student achievement. Then you find out that only about
40% of that money actually goes to teaching kids. The rest gets
gobbled up in the administration. They are doing a lot of things that
would be better in private hands.
In the case of the government doing mundane things, that is usually
the best solution.

Someday go to your local grade school and find out how many porters the
Unions make they keep in school all day long, just in case somebody
needs a cleanup in isle 5... The rest of the day, they sit in a office
or boiler room, earning a salary for doing nothing..

--
OH, I could do the 105 footer, but I would hate to waste the last few
seconds of my life with my eyes closed, screaming like a little
girl...

"I am Tosk" wrote in message
...

Someday go to your local grade school and find out *how many porters the
Unions make they keep in school* all day long, just in case somebody
needs a cleanup in isle 5... The rest of the day, they sit in a office
or boiler room, earning a salary for doing nothing..

--
OH, I could do the 105 footer, but I would hate to waste the last few
seconds of my life with my eyes closed, screaming like a little
girl...



"how many porters the Unions make they keep in school" ???
Sounds like you'd be well served to return to grade school & complete your
jr high.

In article ,
says...

"I am Tosk" wrote in message
...

Someday go to your local grade school and find out *how many porters the
Unions make they keep in school* all day long, just in case somebody
needs a cleanup in isle 5... The rest of the day, they sit in a office
or boiler room, earning a salary for doing nothing..

--
OH, I could do the 105 footer, but I would hate to waste the last few
seconds of my life with my eyes closed, screaming like a little
girl...



"how many porters the Unions make they keep in school" ???
Sounds like you'd be well served to return to grade school & complete your
jr high.

Nice one, you stinky little ferret.

On Oct 5, 7:50*am, "YukonBound" wrote:
"I am Tosk" wrote in l-september.org...



Someday go to your local grade school and find out *how many porters the
Unions make they keep in school* all day long, just in case somebody
needs a cleanup in isle 5... The rest of the day, they sit in a office
or boiler room, earning a salary for doing nothing..

--
OH, I could do the 105 footer, but I would hate to waste the last few
seconds of my life with my eyes closed, screaming like a little
girl...

"how many porters the Unions make they keep in school" ???
Sounds like you'd be well served to return to grade school & complete your
jr high.

They kicked him out for getting caught sniffing girls, AND boys bike
seats at the bike rack.....

On 10/5/10 12:01 AM, I am Tosk wrote:

Someday go to your local grade school and find out how many porters the
Unions make they keep in school all day long, just in case somebody
needs a cleanup in isle 5... The rest of the day, they sit in a office
or boiler room, earning a salary for doing nothing..


Unlike "iDesigns," your fraudulent internet company, school janitors and
maintenance personnel have actual facilities to maintain.


--
Republicans are the Party of No:
No Leaders / No Ideas / No Morals