On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 02:02:40 -0400, wrote:



The issue is not monetary policy, it is a decline in our capacity to
produce things we can sell the world.

and one of the biggest factors in this was the destruction of unions.
a recent series of articles in 'slate' showed that countries with
strong unions also have strong manufacturing bases. the right
destroyed the unions in this country and, bye bye manufacturing

On Oct 1, 3:59*am, bpuharic wrote:
On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 02:02:40 -0400, wrote:

The issue is not monetary policy, it is a decline in our capacity to
produce things we can sell the world.

and one of the biggest factors in this was the destruction of unions.
a recent series of articles in 'slate' showed that countries with
strong unions also have strong manufacturing bases. the right
destroyed the unions in this country and, bye bye manufacturing

You're using backward logic. Actually, more manufacturing brings more
unions. Less manufacturing = less unions. Unions priced themselves
out of the market, and people like you killed manufacturing by buying
cheap chinese-made battery chargers at walmart. You killed the unions
with your purchasing decisions.

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 03:59:32 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 02:02:40 -0400, wrote:



The issue is not monetary policy, it is a decline in our capacity to
produce things we can sell the world.

and one of the biggest factors in this was the destruction of unions.
a recent series of articles in 'slate' showed that countries with
strong unions also have strong manufacturing bases. the right
destroyed the unions in this country and, bye bye manufacturing

The unions caused it to some degree by making our workers too
expensive to compete in a world market and not being willing to budge.
The only states that are growing in manufacturing capacity are the
non-union states.

You really can't blame the unions for screwed up, exploitive management
practices that caused the unions to be formed in the first place.

On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 11:02:17 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 03:59:32 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 02:02:40 -0400, wrote:



The issue is not monetary policy, it is a decline in our capacity to
produce things we can sell the world.

and one of the biggest factors in this was the destruction of unions.
a recent series of articles in 'slate' showed that countries with
strong unions also have strong manufacturing bases. the right
destroyed the unions in this country and, bye bye manufacturing

The unions caused it to some degree by making our workers too
expensive to compete in a world market

wrong. provably wrong. right now, the countries with the strongest
unions have the best manufacturing bases.

you are simply WRONG

and not being willing to budge.
The only states that are growing in manufacturing capacity are the
non-union states.

also wrong.

On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 02:02:40 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:26:27 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:43:35 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:32:41 -0400, wrote:



Certainly it can. All it would take is for China to stop buying our
debt and dump their dollars on the world money markets.

john maynard keynes once said, if you owe the bank $1000 you have a
problem. if you owe it $1M, they have a problem

china's not going to dump anything. you think they want to lose money?

what planet you right wingers live on?

That is the same kind of logic that said Japan would never attack
Pearl Harbor.

Actually, there's some dispute about us knowing or not knowing about the
impending attack.

Ah the old "FDR caused the attack to get us in the war" theory.
That usually comes from right wingers. I'm surprised.

Short term money loss is not the only thing some countries think
about, even if that is such a strange concept to us.

We've had a very stable, long-term monetary policy in the US up until
recently... about the time of Reagan. Between the Depression and then, we
had recessions but nothing severe. Then, the regs got removed and/or gutted.
We see the result. We need to learn from our mistakes and reinstitute the
policies that stabilized our economy.


The issue is not monetary policy, it is a decline in our capacity to
produce things we can sell the world. These days most of our exports
to China are raw materials. We sell them scrap iron and they sell us
consumer goods. The real profit is in the manufacturing, not
collecting and shipping scrap iron.

China is in better shape to come out of a global depression than we
are and they will own the world when they do.

No they aren't. They're a much more rigid society. Millions would die if
their economy went bust.

They have 1.3 billion, they can afford to lose a few million but it is
unlikely it would be that bad. A global depression and fionancial
collapse could set us back over 100 years. For most of China it would
just set them back a decade or so and they are better equipped to
recover.

The rich people here will be fine, they already operate quite well in
the global economy. It will be your middle class that becomes serfs in
a neo-colonial America growing food, cutting wood and mining
materials for China.
To some extent we already are.

The rich people are usually fine. So what. The middle class would be hurt
but would recover.

Recover doing what? This isn't 1929. Our problem is not excess
capacity with no place to sell it. We don't have the ability to
produce much. We sold our factories to Mexico and China.
In the 90s.we thought we would dominate the world in the internet
business but we found out there is really not much employment there.
One guy sitting at a PC arranging drop shipments from Asia is not as
much of an employer as a whole brick and mortar store chain, then they
figured out the guy on the PC could be overseas too. (Clinton's
recession)
In the 2000s we filled that gap building houses, until the market was
so flooded that we may not work through the inventory for years to
come. (the current recession)
Now we are just staring into the hole that used to be American
industry and wondering what is next?

This is yet again a case of Chicken Little (no offense intended).

OK everything is fine, thanks, now I know my kids will be OK.


Another case of a well presented, logical argument being shrugged off with a
liberal cliche because depoop couldn't think of a counter.

Nice job. Wasted though.
--
John H

All decisions are the result of binary thinking.

"John H" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 02:02:40 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:26:27 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:43:35 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:32:41 -0400, wrote:



Certainly it can. All it would take is for China to stop buying our
debt and dump their dollars on the world money markets.

john maynard keynes once said, if you owe the bank $1000 you have a
problem. if you owe it $1M, they have a problem

china's not going to dump anything. you think they want to lose money?

what planet you right wingers live on?

That is the same kind of logic that said Japan would never attack
Pearl Harbor.

Actually, there's some dispute about us knowing or not knowing about the
impending attack.

Ah the old "FDR caused the attack to get us in the war" theory.
That usually comes from right wingers. I'm surprised.

Short term money loss is not the only thing some countries think
about, even if that is such a strange concept to us.

We've had a very stable, long-term monetary policy in the US up until
recently... about the time of Reagan. Between the Depression and then, we
had recessions but nothing severe. Then, the regs got removed and/or
gutted.
We see the result. We need to learn from our mistakes and reinstitute the
policies that stabilized our economy.


The issue is not monetary policy, it is a decline in our capacity to
produce things we can sell the world. These days most of our exports
to China are raw materials. We sell them scrap iron and they sell us
consumer goods. The real profit is in the manufacturing, not
collecting and shipping scrap iron.

China is in better shape to come out of a global depression than we
are and they will own the world when they do.

No they aren't. They're a much more rigid society. Millions would die if
their economy went bust.

They have 1.3 billion, they can afford to lose a few million but it is
unlikely it would be that bad. A global depression and fionancial
collapse could set us back over 100 years. For most of China it would
just set them back a decade or so and they are better equipped to
recover.

The rich people here will be fine, they already operate quite well in
the global economy. It will be your middle class that becomes serfs in
a neo-colonial America growing food, cutting wood and mining
materials for China.
To some extent we already are.

The rich people are usually fine. So what. The middle class would be hurt
but would recover.

Recover doing what? This isn't 1929. Our problem is not excess
capacity with no place to sell it. We don't have the ability to
produce much. We sold our factories to Mexico and China.
In the 90s.we thought we would dominate the world in the internet
business but we found out there is really not much employment there.
One guy sitting at a PC arranging drop shipments from Asia is not as
much of an employer as a whole brick and mortar store chain, then they
figured out the guy on the PC could be overseas too. (Clinton's
recession)
In the 2000s we filled that gap building houses, until the market was
so flooded that we may not work through the inventory for years to
come. (the current recession)
Now we are just staring into the hole that used to be American
industry and wondering what is next?

This is yet again a case of Chicken Little (no offense intended).

OK everything is fine, thanks, now I know my kids will be OK.


Another case of a well presented, logical argument being shrugged off with
a
liberal cliche because depoop couldn't think of a counter.

Nice job. Wasted though.
--
John H

All decisions are the result of binary thinking.

Wow... you sure contributed NOTHING to this thread! Keep up the great work
representing your viewpoint!

On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 01:13:19 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:43:35 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:32:41 -0400, wrote:



Certainly it can. All it would take is for China to stop buying our
debt and dump their dollars on the world money markets.

john maynard keynes once said, if you owe the bank $1000 you have a
problem. if you owe it $1M, they have a problem

china's not going to dump anything. you think they want to lose money?

what planet you right wingers live on?

That is the same kind of logic that said Japan would never attack
Pearl Harbor.

so your argument is that china will take a trillion dollar loss? has
that ever happened? all you have to do is point out an event in
history and you'll have an argument

Short term money loss is not the only thing some countries think
about, even if that is such a strange concept to us.
China is in better shape to come out of a global depression than we
are and they will own the world when they do.

we're in such a depression now, remember. they aren't dumping
anything. so your experiment doesnt work

The rich people here will be fine, they already operate quite well in
the global economy. It will be your middle class that becomes serfs in
a neo-colonial America growing food, cutting wood and mining
materials for China.

they already are becoming serfs. they just dont realize it. a recent
study shows that americans have NO idea how skewed income and wealth
are in this country. and the right is certainly helping to keep this a
secret

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 03:57:38 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 01:13:19 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:43:35 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:32:41 -0400, wrote:



Certainly it can. All it would take is for China to stop buying our
debt and dump their dollars on the world money markets.

john maynard keynes once said, if you owe the bank $1000 you have a
problem. if you owe it $1M, they have a problem

china's not going to dump anything. you think they want to lose money?

what planet you right wingers live on?

That is the same kind of logic that said Japan would never attack
Pearl Harbor.

so your argument is that china will take a trillion dollar loss? has
that ever happened? all you have to do is point out an event in
history and you'll have an argument


They are already braced to take that loss. China is smart enough to
see our current system is unsustainable. The only question is whether
they want to get out while the dollar is still strong or ride it down.
They may take the tough love decision to squeeze us, just to force us
into fiscal responsibility and insure a longer term market for their
goods.

Not true. They're in it for the money. They intend to keep playing. They're
certainly going to squeeze us (continue to actually) to get our house in
order. What's wrong with that? Everyone wins.

Short term money loss is not the only thing some countries think
about, even if that is such a strange concept to us.
China is in better shape to come out of a global depression than we
are and they will own the world when they do.

we're in such a depression now, remember. they aren't dumping
anything. so your experiment doesnt work

Lots of things we are seeing now have never happened before. Why would
you think other things we have not seen before can't happen in the
future? There has never been a time when other countries held this
much of our debt.

There's a difference between the unknown and the unknowable. One works to
explore the unknown. The unknowable is best left to God.

The rich people here will be fine, they already operate quite well in
the global economy. It will be your middle class that becomes serfs in
a neo-colonial America growing food, cutting wood and mining
materials for China.

they already are becoming serfs. they just dont realize it. a recent
study shows that americans have NO idea how skewed income and wealth
are in this country. and the right is certainly helping to keep this a
secret

Yet when I try to point it out you say I am wrong. Again you are
standing to the right of me.

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 1 Oct 2010 10:38:08 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

They are already braced to take that loss. China is smart enough to
see our current system is unsustainable. The only question is whether
they want to get out while the dollar is still strong or ride it down.
They may take the tough love decision to squeeze us, just to force us
into fiscal responsibility and insure a longer term market for their
goods.

Not true. They're in it for the money. They intend to keep playing.
They're
certainly going to squeeze us (continue to actually) to get our house in
order. What's wrong with that? Everyone wins.

We are not going to be any happier about it than the Greeks were when
the Germans told them they had to cut their entitlements.
The question is how that manifests itself. We have a horrible history
of electing politicians who will not admit we are in trouble and
promise to kick the can down the road.

The Chinese can bankrupt us yet not take a Trillion buck loss. The value of
the their debt holdings are decreasing with any inflation we get. And they
may get 50% of the debt and win a war against evil America and not even have
to shoot off a missile. We've spent a Trillion in the middle east on the
longest war in US history and still no way to win. They spend $500 Billion
and win. The ability to print money does not guarantee we can not go BK.
If overspending by government made us richer, the USSR would still be the
USSR and be the richest entity of all the nation states.

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 1 Oct 2010 10:38:08 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

They are already braced to take that loss. China is smart enough to
see our current system is unsustainable. The only question is whether
they want to get out while the dollar is still strong or ride it down.
They may take the tough love decision to squeeze us, just to force us
into fiscal responsibility and insure a longer term market for their
goods.

Not true. They're in it for the money. They intend to keep playing.
They're
certainly going to squeeze us (continue to actually) to get our house in
order. What's wrong with that? Everyone wins.

We are not going to be any happier about it than the Greeks were when
the Germans told them they had to cut their entitlements.
The question is how that manifests itself. We have a horrible history
of electing politicians who will not admit we are in trouble and
promise to kick the can down the road.

In any case, China isn't going to quit playing, which is the point. No one
is particularly happy about getting fewer services for more dollars.