Crist has small lead over Rubio...
 

On 5/5/10 9:47 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 05 May 2010 20:11:40 -0400,
wrote:

Unfortunately they are a fact of life and the sooner kids learn how to
take a test the sooner they will succeed in the 21st century society.
In Florida you can't even cut hair or do fingernails without passing a
standardized test. Obviously, as you pointed out, all "professions"
use tests for a benchmark. It is also the key to getting into a decent
college, getting a decent job in the military or even things as
mundane as a driver's license.
Without test skills your only paths to success are as a rock star,
athlete or drug dealer.



The problem with putting the onus on classroom teachers for the
performance of their charges is that the teachers have no control over
the kids' environments outside of school. Educated adults who take exams
in order to practice a profession can take virtually all the time they
need to prep, and they can, within reason, control their environment.
Lots of kids who do not "achieve" have a lousy home life and that
diminishes the ability for many to prep for standardized tests.

I have no problem with separating these kids out for additional
attention and special remedial classes. That may be where more money
should actually be spent. The problem is, this would be seen as de
facto segregation and it wouldn't take a semester before the school
board was sued.
By a like token, it is hard to create programs for the brightest
students (or just the ones who have helpful families at home) because
the demographics will not usually meet muster with the deseg
agreements the school system has to abide by.


Well, then, putting the onus on teachers thusly seems like an impossible
burden. Certainly teachers are responsible for teaching with appropriate
methodology. Students and their parents are responsible for learning. If
the teachers are teaching properly, but the students and their parents
are not holding up their part of the bargain, well...you have
failure...no matter how well the teachers perform.



--
The Tea Party's teabaggers are just the Republican base by another name.

Crist has small lead over Rubio...
 

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 05 May 2010 20:11:40 -0400, hk
wrote:

Unfortunately they are a fact of life and the sooner kids learn how to
take a test the sooner they will succeed in the 21st century society.
In Florida you can't even cut hair or do fingernails without passing a
standardized test. Obviously, as you pointed out, all "professions"
use tests for a benchmark. It is also the key to getting into a decent
college, getting a decent job in the military or even things as
mundane as a driver's license.
Without test skills your only paths to success are as a rock star,
athlete or drug dealer.



The problem with putting the onus on classroom teachers for the
performance of their charges is that the teachers have no control over
the kids' environments outside of school. Educated adults who take exams
in order to practice a profession can take virtually all the time they
need to prep, and they can, within reason, control their environment.
Lots of kids who do not "achieve" have a lousy home life and that
diminishes the ability for many to prep for standardized tests.

I have no problem with separating these kids out for additional
attention and special remedial classes. That may be where more money
should actually be spent. The problem is, this would be seen as de
facto segregation and it wouldn't take a semester before the school
board was sued.
By a like token, it is hard to create programs for the brightest
students (or just the ones who have helpful families at home) because
the demographics will not usually meet muster with the deseg
agreements the school system has to abide by.



"Without test skills your only paths to success are as a rock star,
athlete or drug dealer." Or half-term governor of Alaska.

Like I said "rock" star. insert box of rocks joke here


I don't see why there would be a reasonable suit... seems to me that with
parent involvement it would be a no-brainer.

I don't think it's a segregation issue... not sure how you mean that.

Crist has small lead over Rubio...
 

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 05 May 2010 21:51:54 -0400, hk
wrote:


I have no problem with separating these kids out for additional
attention and special remedial classes. That may be where more money
should actually be spent. The problem is, this would be seen as de
facto segregation and it wouldn't take a semester before the school
board was sued.
By a like token, it is hard to create programs for the brightest
students (or just the ones who have helpful families at home) because
the demographics will not usually meet muster with the deseg
agreements the school system has to abide by.


Well, then, putting the onus on teachers thusly seems like an impossible
burden. Certainly teachers are responsible for teaching with appropriate
methodology. Students and their parents are responsible for learning. If
the teachers are teaching properly, but the students and their parents
are not holding up their part of the bargain, well...you have
failure...no matter how well the teachers perform.

The real question here is teachers who simply do not perform.
You can have a three time golden apple winner who is making
significantly less than the older teacher who couldn't teach a dog to
scratch fleas.
Pay is strictly time in grade and the number of degrees you have, not
your actual teaching skill. The only real way to get fired is to sleep
with one of your students. Even then, it is not certain.
That was the reason for SB6


Yup.. this is a problem. The question is.. how does one evaluate the
teacher. That's a continuing problem.

Crist has small lead over Rubio...
 

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 May 2010 17:46:17 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

Unfortunately they are a fact of life and the sooner kids learn how to
take a test the sooner they will succeed in the 21st century society.
In Florida you can't even cut hair or do fingernails without passing a
standardized test. Obviously, as you pointed out, all "professions"
use tests for a benchmark. It is also the key to getting into a decent
college, getting a decent job in the military or even things as
mundane as a driver's license.
Without test skills your only paths to success are as a rock star,
athlete or drug dealer.


Well... there are certainly other choices, but I get your point. So, the
question is to what should teachers teach? If they teach for knowledge,
then
there'll be some who can't cut it on tests. If they teach for test taking,
then the kids aren't necessarily learning. Seems like a combination is
what
I had and what should be done. I think that's mostly happening, but far
too
many teachers are teaching test passing. There's got to be a coherent way
to
evaluate teachers, based on knowledge.


The kids who are likely to actually want to learn concepts will take
the effort to do so. The ones who just want to get by will at least
have to learn what is on the test. You also are demonstrating a
degree of reading comprehension skill. That is a valuable asset.
Then the onus is really on the test writer to be sure the bullet
points from the lesson plan is on the test.
In the end, teaching the "at risk" kids how to take tests and not fear
them may be the best thing we can do for them.
I know lots of guys in the trades who would be a lot farther ahead if
they could pass a fairly simple test on things they really know.


And, another element is teacher expectations for students. The greater the
expectation, the better the student tends to do, apparently.

Crist has small lead over Rubio...
 

On 5/5/10 10:54 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 05 May 2010 21:51:54 -0400,
wrote:


I have no problem with separating these kids out for additional
attention and special remedial classes. That may be where more money
should actually be spent. The problem is, this would be seen as de
facto segregation and it wouldn't take a semester before the school
board was sued.
By a like token, it is hard to create programs for the brightest
students (or just the ones who have helpful families at home) because
the demographics will not usually meet muster with the deseg
agreements the school system has to abide by.


Well, then, putting the onus on teachers thusly seems like an impossible
burden. Certainly teachers are responsible for teaching with appropriate
methodology. Students and their parents are responsible for learning. If
the teachers are teaching properly, but the students and their parents
are not holding up their part of the bargain, well...you have
failure...no matter how well the teachers perform.

The real question here is teachers who simply do not perform.
You can have a three time golden apple winner who is making
significantly less than the older teacher who couldn't teach a dog to
scratch fleas.
Pay is strictly time in grade and the number of degrees you have, not
your actual teaching skill. The only real way to get fired is to sleep
with one of your students. Even then, it is not certain.
That was the reason for SB6

I was wondering why those really hot Florida blonde teachers were
banging their students...

I guess times have really changed. Back in the day when I was 16, if one
of those hot blonde teachers were "helping me along," I'd have kept my
mouth shut and just smiled a lot.

I certainly understand how inappropriate it is for a teacher to take
"advantage" of a young girl but...boys are different, or at least they
were. :)

http://www.fanpix.net/gallery/debbie...e-pictures.htm

That's our gal!


--
The Tea Party's teabaggers are just the Republican base by another name.

Crist has small lead over Rubio...
 

On 5/5/2010 2:37 PM, hk wrote:

Ever wonder where Harry got the name naled at mypacks for an email
address.
Wonder no more. look up naled in google groups or simply follow this
link
http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...ch+for+a+group


William? I don't think so.


Indeed...oh, and that email addy? Assigned by my old ISP, along with a
few others, as emails to use on-line so as to not get jammed in your
"real" email accounts with spam.

Wait just a cotton picking minute. Apparently that is one of your
cherished "real" email addys. You just gave it to someone as a means to
contact you. At any rate, your old ISP seems to have a good sense of
humor. They must have read your posting history to come up with that
addy. LOL. G'day Mate

Crist has small lead over Rubio...
 

On 5/6/10 10:02 AM, William wrote:
On 5/5/2010 2:37 PM, hk wrote:

Ever wonder where Harry got the name naled at mypacks for an email
address.
Wonder no more. look up naled in google groups or simply follow this
link
http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...ch+for+a+group



William? I don't think so.


Indeed...oh, and that email addy? Assigned by my old ISP, along with a
few others, as emails to use on-line so as to not get jammed in your
"real" email accounts with spam.

Wait just a cotton picking minute. Apparently that is one of your
cherished "real" email addys. You just gave it to someone as a means to
contact you. At any rate, your old ISP seems to have a good sense of
humor. They must have read your posting history to come up with that
addy. LOL. G'day Mate


D'oh. You must have been standing in line behind Loogyfocher and Toskie
the Clown when brains were being handed out. I didn't say the email
address didn't work. It does. I just don't check it often...

Jesus.




--
The Tea Party's teabaggers are just the Republican base by another name.

Crist has small lead over Rubio...
 

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 May 2010 21:30:44 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

The real question here is teachers who simply do not perform.
You can have a three time golden apple winner who is making
significantly less than the older teacher who couldn't teach a dog to
scratch fleas.
Pay is strictly time in grade and the number of degrees you have, not
your actual teaching skill. The only real way to get fired is to sleep
with one of your students. Even then, it is not certain.
That was the reason for SB6


Yup.. this is a problem. The question is.. how does one evaluate the
teacher. That's a continuing problem.


Teachers don't seem to want to be evaluated beyond their degrees and
time in grade.,
I do understand the emphasis on degrees. That is the product they sell
so they have to recognize it's worth, even when it becomes worthless.
Why do I care if an elementary school teacher has a PHD in some
obscure subject?


You're lumping all teachers and that's not appropriate. Most teachers are
decent, hard-working people who want the best for their students. Most do
not have PhDs.

Crist has small lead over Rubio...
 

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 May 2010 21:29:50 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

I have no problem with separating these kids out for additional
attention and special remedial classes. That may be where more money
should actually be spent. The problem is, this would be seen as de
facto segregation and it wouldn't take a semester before the school
board was sued.
By a like token, it is hard to create programs for the brightest
students (or just the ones who have helpful families at home) because
the demographics will not usually meet muster with the deseg
agreements the school system has to abide by.



I don't see why there would be a reasonable suit... seems to me that with
parent involvement it would be a no-brainer.

I don't think it's a segregation issue... not sure how you mean that.


That is because you don't live in the south.

Most of the southern states are still living under desegregation
orders that date back to the Kennedy and Johnson administrations.
There are still quotas for everything in the education system and
plenty of Al Sharpton wannabes who will sue at the drop of a hat.
We still have a whole lot of racially guided busing, some than makes
absolutely no sense.



Many of the issues in the south, as far as race relations and equality goes
hasn't changed much. I don't see how quotas have much to do with
teacher/student performance. I still don't understand what you're trying to
say with quotas... in the classroom?

Crist has small lead over Rubio...
 

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 6 May 2010 09:37:44 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

Most of the southern states are still living under desegregation
orders that date back to the Kennedy and Johnson administrations.
There are still quotas for everything in the education system and
plenty of Al Sharpton wannabes who will sue at the drop of a hat.
We still have a whole lot of racially guided busing, some than makes
absolutely no sense.



Many of the issues in the south, as far as race relations and equality
goes
hasn't changed much. I don't see how quotas have much to do with
teacher/student performance. I still don't understand what you're trying
to
say with quotas... in the classroom?


Quotas affect "gifted" programs if they do not return the proper
demographic numbers. They certainly have problems if they try to
establish a special school for gifted students and one for "at risk"
students because they will not have equal ethnic populations.
The sociologists decided the kids are being deprived of the right to
attend a school with thugs and morons.


I doubt this is the case. It sounds like you're making up the part about the
gifted vs. at risk part, since ethnicity can't be used exclusively. You're
clearly making stuff up about sociologists, implying that they have base
motives.