Realistic cruising under sail
 

Even the best sailboat cannot sail much closer than 45 degrees to the
wind so this means at least 1/4 of the time you cannot sail directly
toward your destination (2*45 =90 which is 1/4 of 360). On a loaded
cruising boat, you will be lucky to get to within 55 degrees of the
wind so this eliminates 110 out of 360 degrees or 30%.
Where I live, NO wind at least 1/2 the time leaving only 35% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. About half the time while
trying to cruise, you get short of time so you end up motoring
directly toward your destination getting you down to 17.5% of the time
you can sail directly toward your destination. Around here, roughly
30% of the time the widn is blowing, it is a thunderstorm or tropical
storm getting you down to somewhere between 10 -13% of the time you
can sail toward your destination. This is why cruising sailboats need
adequate engines.

Realistic cruising under sail
 

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
Even the best sailboat cannot sail much closer than 45 degrees to the
wind so this means at least 1/4 of the time you cannot sail directly
toward your destination (2*45 =90 which is 1/4 of 360). On a loaded
cruising boat, you will be lucky to get to within 55 degrees of the
wind so this eliminates 110 out of 360 degrees or 30%.
Where I live, NO wind at least 1/2 the time leaving only 35% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. About half the time while
trying to cruise, you get short of time so you end up motoring
directly toward your destination getting you down to 17.5% of the time
you can sail directly toward your destination. Around here, roughly
30% of the time the widn is blowing, it is a thunderstorm or tropical
storm getting you down to somewhere between 10 -13% of the time you
can sail toward your destination. This is why cruising sailboats need
adequate engines.


Interesting numbers. Of course, out here the wind is pretty high I think. By
adequate... what do you mean? It needs to power the boat in most conditions,
but if you're offshore and there's wind, you're likely sailing right? I can
see needing something adequate in the bay or on the coast. The link I found
said the boat had a 50hp, which seems pretty good for a 42' boat. Perhaps
fuel capacity is also an important issue...

--
Nom=de=Plume

Realistic cruising under sail
 

"nom=de=plume" wrote in
:

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
.
..
Even the best sailboat cannot sail much closer than 45 degrees to the
wind so this means at least 1/4 of the time you cannot sail directly
toward your destination (2*45 =90 which is 1/4 of 360). On a loaded
cruising boat, you will be lucky to get to within 55 degrees of the
wind so this eliminates 110 out of 360 degrees or 30%.
Where I live, NO wind at least 1/2 the time leaving only 35% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. About half the time while
trying to cruise, you get short of time so you end up motoring
directly toward your destination getting you down to 17.5% of the
time you can sail directly toward your destination. Around here,
roughly 30% of the time the widn is blowing, it is a thunderstorm or
tropical storm getting you down to somewhere between 10 -13% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. This is why cruising
sailboats need adequate engines.


Interesting numbers. Of course, out here the wind is pretty high I
think. By adequate... what do you mean? It needs to power the boat in
most conditions, but if you're offshore and there's wind, you're
likely sailing right? I can see needing something adequate in the bay
or on the coast. The link I found said the boat had a 50hp, which
seems pretty good for a 42' boat. Perhaps fuel capacity is also an
important issue...


Much of this has to do with your "sailing" personality.
Despite what the OP has said, there are plenty of cruising sailors who
seldom use an engine.
Even a knot of wind will move a boat, and zephyrs of 2-5 knots are often
at work even on flat seas.
Dead calm conditions are not common for cruisers.
The impatient will turn on the engine, others will wait for the wind to
return.
Against the wind tacking is part of sailing, so all these points of
compass wind direction percentages are pretty meaningless.
Unless you are a stinkpotter at heart.
Note how this fellow has managed to work it out that in essence you can
sail only 10-13% of the time.
Yet I know sailors who commonly sail off anchor in almost calm
conditions, and only rarely motor off.
With them, it is motoring that might comprise 10% of their movement.
Sails are not meant to get you from one place to another quickly.
If your goal is to move from port to port expeditiously, you will usually
find yourself motoring.
If you are a "sail" sailor at heart, you will nearly always sail, and the
wind will set your schedule. Impatience is not an option, nor desired.
This is not to say an engine isn't useful, or that one should not use an
engine, or even that mostly motoring a sailboat isn't a valid option.
And an engine greatly enhances safety in many circumstances.
What I am suggesting is that you should well know your inclinations
before selecting your boat.
You may be a stinkpotter at heart, and find a trawler more suitable.
There are also motor-sailors available if you want to hedge your bet.

Regards, Brian

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On Apr 21, 9:49*am, Brian Welcott wrote:
"nom=de=plume" wrote :



"Frogwatch" wrote in message
.
..
Even the best sailboat cannot sail much closer than 45 degrees to the
wind so this means at least 1/4 of the time you cannot sail directly
toward your destination (2*45 =90 which is 1/4 of 360). *On a loaded
cruising boat, you will be lucky to get to within 55 degrees of the
wind so this eliminates 110 out of 360 degrees or 30%.
Where I live, NO wind at least 1/2 the time leaving only 35% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. *About half the time while
trying to cruise, you get short of time so you end up motoring
directly toward your destination getting you down to 17.5% of the
time you can sail directly toward your destination. *Around here,
roughly 30% of the time the widn is blowing, it is a thunderstorm or
tropical storm getting you down to somewhere between 10 -13% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. *This is why cruising
sailboats need adequate engines.

Interesting numbers. Of course, out here the wind is pretty high I
think. By adequate... what do you mean? It needs to power the boat in
most conditions, but if you're offshore and there's wind, you're
likely sailing right? I can see needing something adequate in the bay
or on the coast. The link I found said the boat had a 50hp, which
seems pretty good for a 42' boat. Perhaps fuel capacity is also an
important issue...

Much of this has to do with your "sailing" personality.
Despite what the OP has said, there are plenty of cruising sailors who
seldom use an engine.
Even a knot of wind will move a boat, and zephyrs of 2-5 knots are often
at work even on flat seas.
Dead calm conditions are not common for cruisers.
The impatient will turn on the engine, others will wait for the wind to
return.
Against the wind tacking is part of sailing, so all these points of
compass wind direction percentages are pretty meaningless.
Unless you are a stinkpotter at heart.
Note how this fellow has managed to work it out that in essence you can
sail only 10-13% of the time.
Yet I know sailors who commonly sail off anchor in almost calm
conditions, and only rarely motor off.
With them, it is motoring that might comprise 10% of their movement.
Sails are not meant to get you from one place to another quickly. * *
If your goal is to move from port to port expeditiously, you will usually
find yourself motoring.
If you are a "sail" sailor at heart, you will nearly always sail, and the
wind will set your schedule. *Impatience is not an option, nor desired.
This is not to say an engine isn't useful, or that one should not use an
engine, or even that mostly motoring a sailboat isn't a valid option.
And an engine greatly enhances safety in many circumstances.
What I am suggesting is that you should well know your inclinations
before selecting your boat.
You may be a stinkpotter at heart, and find a trawler more suitable.
There are also motor-sailors available if you want to hedge your bet.

Regards, Brian

I am not a "sailor at heart" but am simply cheap. If there was cold
fusion power that would get me from here to there for nearly nothing
I'd use it. Sails are nothing more than a means of propulsion and I
find nothing romantic or even aesthetically pleasing about using
sails. Consequently, I find myself motoring a lot and using sails as
basically a back-up propulsion system. I actually have a life and do
not want to spend it waiting for an occasional zephyr to move me along
at 1.5 kts in the wrong direction.
I would like a motor sailor but my current boat works well especially
with the larger engine. I get a good motor sailor for nearly nothing
and a boat that sails well when I need it.
MY long experience with cruising the Florida west coast has convinced
me that the best boat for me would be a Troller/sailor like the
"Diesel Duck" line of boats except they have too deep a draft. They
would be ideal for California. I have been tempted to contact the
designer to ask him to design a shoal draft version I could build.

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:49:15 +0000 (UTC), Brian Welcott
wrote:

And an engine greatly enhances safety in many circumstances.
What I am suggesting is that you should well know your inclinations
before selecting your boat.
You may be a stinkpotter at heart, and find a trawler more suitable.
There are also motor-sailors available if you want to hedge your bet.

There's some good advice there but also some anti engine inuendo that
we could do without. I've done a lot of sailboat distance racing in
the past so I'm well aware that it is possible to sail 100% of the
time regardless of conditions. Waiting for wind however is not half
the fun and some people find it to be pure torture, especially with
the sails slatting around, the sun beating down relentlessly, and a
cloud of black flys moving in for the kill. It is also a big issue
for people with jobs who have to schedule time off in advance and
return promptly when expected.

It is also a fact that the average cruising boat is not set up for
efficient light wind sailing. That requires a lot of attention to
minimizing weight, top notch sails in flawless condition, an
obsession with keeping the bottom/keel/rudder smooth and clean, etc.

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On 4/21/10 11:52 AM, Frogwatch wrote:


I am not a "sailor at heart" but am simply cheap. If there was cold
fusion power that would get me from here to there for nearly nothing
I'd use it. Sails are nothing more than a means of propulsion and I
find nothing romantic or even aesthetically pleasing about using
sails. Consequently, I find myself motoring a lot and using sails as
basically a back-up propulsion system. I actually have a life and do
not want to spend it waiting for an occasional zephyr to move me along
at 1.5 kts in the wrong direction.
I would like a motor sailor but my current boat works well especially
with the larger engine. I get a good motor sailor for nearly nothing
and a boat that sails well when I need it.
MY long experience with cruising the Florida west coast has convinced
me that the best boat for me would be a Troller/sailor like the
"Diesel Duck" line of boats except they have too deep a draft. They
would be ideal for California. I have been tempted to contact the
designer to ask him to design a shoal draft version I could build.


My guess is that you are not much of a sailor. I already know you are
not much of a boat maintenance guy.

In the 1970s, I had a boat very similar to yours. Same brand, though
mine was a center cockpit. I bought well-used, though in great shape,
from a charter fleet operator in Annapolis. If there was any sort of
breeze, the boat was an okay cruiser, but there were plenty of days on
Chesapeake Bay with seemingly no wind at all. I kept the boat a couple
of years and then sold her to another charter fleet. I kept my next
sailboat in a marina closer to the ocean, where wind was more likely.

Anyway, perhaps you have the wrong sort of boat. You ought to consider
getting rid of the sailboat and finding a nice, used 30-35' trawler with
a diesel that will provide a steady 6-9 mph cruise speed, pretty much no
matter what the wind.



--
The Tea Party's teabaggers are just the Republican base by another name.

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:52:02 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

MY long experience with cruising the Florida west coast has convinced
me that the best boat for me would be a Troller/sailor like the
"Diesel Duck" line of boats except they have too deep a draft. They
would be ideal for California. I have been tempted to contact the
designer to ask him to design a shoal draft version I could build.

There was a rancher from northwestern Canada who wanted a shoal draft
trawler so he had a "Diesel Duck" like boat designed with a flat
bottom and built from aluminum. It had a draft of just over 3 feet.
He and his sons literally portaged it down shallow Canadian rivers to
the artic ocean, and then motored it around the world. It had a
really small 55 hp diesel that was highly fuel efficient, and gave it
a cruising speed of about 6 knots. It had passive paravane type
stabilizers but still rolled a bit as you can imagine. They put the
boat up for sale after circumnavigating for some small fraction of its
original cost.

http://www.trawlersandtrawlering.com...ldnonstop.html

Not everyone's idea of a cruising boat, but it can be done.

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On Apr 21, 12:29*pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:52:02 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch

wrote:
MY long experience with cruising the Florida west coast has convinced
me that the best boat for me would be a Troller/sailor like the
"Diesel Duck" line of boats except they have too deep a draft. *They
would be ideal for California. *I have been tempted to contact the
designer to ask him to design a shoal draft version I could build.

There was a rancher from northwestern Canada who wanted a shoal draft
trawler so he had a "Diesel Duck" like boat designed with a flat
bottom and built from aluminum. * It had a draft of just over 3 feet.
He and his sons literally portaged it down shallow Canadian rivers to
the artic ocean, and then motored it around the world. * It had a
really small 55 hp diesel that was highly fuel efficient, and gave it
a cruising speed of about 6 knots. *It had passive paravane type
stabilizers but *still rolled a bit as you can imagine. * They put the
boat up for sale after circumnavigating for some small fraction of its
original cost.

http://www.trawlersandtrawlering.com...ldnonstop.html

Not everyone's idea of a cruising boat, but it can be done.

That Idlewild boat seems interesting except for the rolling. However,
Aluminum? Can you say dangerous corrosion?
I really do think that for an offshore boat that will be going for a
week or two, sails are necessary as a back-up. Most trawlers get
terrible mpg too. I'd like to see the 40' Diesel Duck designed in a
shoal draft bilge keel version. However, 40' is waaaaay too big for
one person to handle so I'd prefer smaller.

Realistic cruising under sail
 

Wayne.B wrote in
:


There's some good advice there but also some anti engine inuendo that
we could do without.

Don't know where you saw that. I clearly stated that any flavor of power
is up to the individual.
No sailor is compelled to use or not use an engine.
If you are offended that some choose to use sail almost exclusively, that
is for you to deal with.
Just as those running under sail must deal with any offense you offer them.

Regards, Brian

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:11:20 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

However, 40' is waaaaay too big for
one person to handle so I'd prefer smaller.

No problem for a trawler that is laid out and equipped properly. I
can, and have, single handed our 49 with no problems.

Here are the reqirements as I see them:

A good, trouble free, anchor windlass.

Walk around decks with access from both sides.

A really good, industrial strength autopilot.

Either twin engines or a powerful bow thruster.

At night you'd also want a first class radar with target tracking and
suitable proximity alarms.

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:10:21 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:52:02 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

I am not a "sailor at heart" but am simply cheap.

It sounds like you really need a trawler.

Heh, what makes you think that trawlers are cheap? Have you bought
800 gallons of diesel recently in a foreign country?

Realistic cruising under sail
 

Frogwatch wrote in news:3c845541-f764-40e5-
:


That Idlewild boat seems interesting except for the rolling. However,
Aluminum? Can you say dangerous corrosion?
I really do think that for an offshore boat that will be going for a
week or two, sails are necessary as a back-up. Most trawlers get
terrible mpg too. I'd like to see the 40' Diesel Duck designed in a
shoal draft bilge keel version. However, 40' is waaaaay too big for
one person to handle so I'd prefer smaller.

Since you are coastal cruising, "offshore" doen't really have to enter
into your boat selection.
An eye to weather and knowing the ports to duck into is all you need.
Many boats are capable and safe to cruise coastally.
Even open boats if care is taken.
And beyond that, the Bahamas and other near islands are easily reached.
Again an eye to weather, sea conditions and navigation skill is what is
required.
GPS takes much of the work out of navigation, but charts are necessary to
keep you off shoals.
You may not challenge the seas as a bigger boat would, and wait more for
condition improvements, but many do that.
The boat you already have may be the boat you need.
Traditional sailboats can be quite efficient motoring, and as you say,
have sails as a backup.

Regards, Brian

Realistic cruising under sail
 

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
On Apr 21, 12:29 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:52:02 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch

wrote:
MY long experience with cruising the Florida west coast has convinced
me that the best boat for me would be a Troller/sailor like the
"Diesel Duck" line of boats except they have too deep a draft. They
would be ideal for California. I have been tempted to contact the
designer to ask him to design a shoal draft version I could build.

There was a rancher from northwestern Canada who wanted a shoal draft
trawler so he had a "Diesel Duck" like boat designed with a flat
bottom and built from aluminum. It had a draft of just over 3 feet.
He and his sons literally portaged it down shallow Canadian rivers to
the artic ocean, and then motored it around the world. It had a
really small 55 hp diesel that was highly fuel efficient, and gave it
a cruising speed of about 6 knots. It had passive paravane type
stabilizers but still rolled a bit as you can imagine. They put the
boat up for sale after circumnavigating for some small fraction of its
original cost.

http://www.trawlersandtrawlering.com...ldnonstop.html

Not everyone's idea of a cruising boat, but it can be done.

That Idlewild boat seems interesting except for the rolling. However,
Aluminum? Can you say dangerous corrosion?
I really do think that for an offshore boat that will be going for a
week or two, sails are necessary as a back-up. Most trawlers get
terrible mpg too. I'd like to see the 40' Diesel Duck designed in a
shoal draft bilge keel version. However, 40' is waaaaay too big for
one person to handle so I'd prefer smaller.

Little corrosion problems. A couple zincs etc. All the sal****er aluminum
boats are 5xxx, 6xxx alloy which does a great job with sal****er. Look at
the amount of CG MLB's that are aluminum. Plus a few really nice yachts.
Stevens used mostly aluminum I think.

Realistic cruising under sail
 

"Brian Welcott" wrote in message
...
"nom=de=plume" wrote in
:

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
.
..
Even the best sailboat cannot sail much closer than 45 degrees to the
wind so this means at least 1/4 of the time you cannot sail directly
toward your destination (2*45 =90 which is 1/4 of 360). On a loaded
cruising boat, you will be lucky to get to within 55 degrees of the
wind so this eliminates 110 out of 360 degrees or 30%.
Where I live, NO wind at least 1/2 the time leaving only 35% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. About half the time while
trying to cruise, you get short of time so you end up motoring
directly toward your destination getting you down to 17.5% of the
time you can sail directly toward your destination. Around here,
roughly 30% of the time the widn is blowing, it is a thunderstorm or
tropical storm getting you down to somewhere between 10 -13% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. This is why cruising
sailboats need adequate engines.


Interesting numbers. Of course, out here the wind is pretty high I
think. By adequate... what do you mean? It needs to power the boat in
most conditions, but if you're offshore and there's wind, you're
likely sailing right? I can see needing something adequate in the bay
or on the coast. The link I found said the boat had a 50hp, which
seems pretty good for a 42' boat. Perhaps fuel capacity is also an
important issue...


Much of this has to do with your "sailing" personality.
Despite what the OP has said, there are plenty of cruising sailors who
seldom use an engine.
Even a knot of wind will move a boat, and zephyrs of 2-5 knots are often
at work even on flat seas.
Dead calm conditions are not common for cruisers.

Hey, I saw that movie! :)

The impatient will turn on the engine, others will wait for the wind to
return.
Against the wind tacking is part of sailing, so all these points of
compass wind direction percentages are pretty meaningless.
Unless you are a stinkpotter at heart.
Note how this fellow has managed to work it out that in essence you can
sail only 10-13% of the time.
Yet I know sailors who commonly sail off anchor in almost calm
conditions, and only rarely motor off.
With them, it is motoring that might comprise 10% of their movement.
Sails are not meant to get you from one place to another quickly.
If your goal is to move from port to port expeditiously, you will usually
find yourself motoring.
If you are a "sail" sailor at heart, you will nearly always sail, and the
wind will set your schedule. Impatience is not an option, nor desired.
This is not to say an engine isn't useful, or that one should not use an
engine, or even that mostly motoring a sailboat isn't a valid option.
And an engine greatly enhances safety in many circumstances.
What I am suggesting is that you should well know your inclinations
before selecting your boat.
You may be a stinkpotter at heart, and find a trawler more suitable.
There are also motor-sailors available if you want to hedge your bet.

Regards, Brian

I never liked engines. Didn't have one certainly when I had the Hobie. We
did beach starts all the time... mostly in fact.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Realistic cruising under sail
 

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
On Apr 21, 9:49 am, Brian Welcott wrote:
"nom=de=plume" wrote
:



"Frogwatch" wrote in message
.
..
Even the best sailboat cannot sail much closer than 45 degrees to the
wind so this means at least 1/4 of the time you cannot sail directly
toward your destination (2*45 =90 which is 1/4 of 360). On a loaded
cruising boat, you will be lucky to get to within 55 degrees of the
wind so this eliminates 110 out of 360 degrees or 30%.
Where I live, NO wind at least 1/2 the time leaving only 35% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. About half the time while
trying to cruise, you get short of time so you end up motoring
directly toward your destination getting you down to 17.5% of the
time you can sail directly toward your destination. Around here,
roughly 30% of the time the widn is blowing, it is a thunderstorm or
tropical storm getting you down to somewhere between 10 -13% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. This is why cruising
sailboats need adequate engines.

Interesting numbers. Of course, out here the wind is pretty high I
think. By adequate... what do you mean? It needs to power the boat in
most conditions, but if you're offshore and there's wind, you're
likely sailing right? I can see needing something adequate in the bay
or on the coast. The link I found said the boat had a 50hp, which
seems pretty good for a 42' boat. Perhaps fuel capacity is also an
important issue...

Much of this has to do with your "sailing" personality.
Despite what the OP has said, there are plenty of cruising sailors who
seldom use an engine.
Even a knot of wind will move a boat, and zephyrs of 2-5 knots are often
at work even on flat seas.
Dead calm conditions are not common for cruisers.
The impatient will turn on the engine, others will wait for the wind to
return.
Against the wind tacking is part of sailing, so all these points of
compass wind direction percentages are pretty meaningless.
Unless you are a stinkpotter at heart.
Note how this fellow has managed to work it out that in essence you can
sail only 10-13% of the time.
Yet I know sailors who commonly sail off anchor in almost calm
conditions, and only rarely motor off.
With them, it is motoring that might comprise 10% of their movement.
Sails are not meant to get you from one place to another quickly.
If your goal is to move from port to port expeditiously, you will usually
find yourself motoring.
If you are a "sail" sailor at heart, you will nearly always sail, and the
wind will set your schedule. Impatience is not an option, nor desired.
This is not to say an engine isn't useful, or that one should not use an
engine, or even that mostly motoring a sailboat isn't a valid option.
And an engine greatly enhances safety in many circumstances.
What I am suggesting is that you should well know your inclinations
before selecting your boat.
You may be a stinkpotter at heart, and find a trawler more suitable.
There are also motor-sailors available if you want to hedge your bet.

Regards, Brian

I am not a "sailor at heart" but am simply cheap. If there was cold
fusion power that would get me from here to there for nearly nothing
I'd use it. Sails are nothing more than a means of propulsion and I
find nothing romantic or even aesthetically pleasing about using
sails. Consequently, I find myself motoring a lot and using sails as
basically a back-up propulsion system. I actually have a life and do
not want to spend it waiting for an occasional zephyr to move me along
at 1.5 kts in the wrong direction.

Hmm... well, to each his own, but I would prefer fewer instances of using a
noisy, polluting engine vs. waiting for wind if at all possible.

I would like a motor sailor but my current boat works well especially
with the larger engine. I get a good motor sailor for nearly nothing
and a boat that sails well when I need it.
MY long experience with cruising the Florida west coast has convinced
me that the best boat for me would be a Troller/sailor like the
"Diesel Duck" line of boats except they have too deep a draft. They
would be ideal for California. I have been tempted to contact the
designer to ask him to design a shoal draft version I could build.


--
Nom=de=Plume

Realistic cruising under sail
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:10:21 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:52:02 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

I am not a "sailor at heart" but am simply cheap.

It sounds like you really need a trawler.

Heh, what makes you think that trawlers are cheap? Have you bought
800 gallons of diesel recently in a foreign country?


I can't imagine it.. you've gotta be made of money. :)

--
Nom=de=Plume

Realistic cruising under sail
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:49:15 +0000 (UTC), Brian Welcott
wrote:

And an engine greatly enhances safety in many circumstances.
What I am suggesting is that you should well know your inclinations
before selecting your boat.
You may be a stinkpotter at heart, and find a trawler more suitable.
There are also motor-sailors available if you want to hedge your bet.

There's some good advice there but also some anti engine inuendo that
we could do without. I've done a lot of sailboat distance racing in
the past so I'm well aware that it is possible to sail 100% of the
time regardless of conditions. Waiting for wind however is not half
the fun and some people find it to be pure torture, especially with
the sails slatting around, the sun beating down relentlessly, and a
cloud of black flys moving in for the kill. It is also a big issue
for people with jobs who have to schedule time off in advance and
return promptly when expected.

It is also a fact that the average cruising boat is not set up for
efficient light wind sailing. That requires a lot of attention to
minimizing weight, top notch sails in flawless condition, an
obsession with keeping the bottom/keel/rudder smooth and clean, etc.


You mean like a spinnaker? I think there's another... not a gennaker...
can't think of it. Sort of between the two.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:31:01 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

Heh, what makes you think that trawlers are cheap? Have you bought
800 gallons of diesel recently in a foreign country?


I can't imagine it.. you've gotta be made of money. :)

Not really, just comfortable and frugal with the unnecessary.

Guys I used to work with would joke around and say things like:
"Wayne, you must really be wealthy having all these boats".

I'd always reply that they didn't understand how it works, that I
might really be wealthy if I didn't have any boats at all.

Since you are thinking about buying a boat, the moral of the story is
to be careful what you ask for.

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:32:15 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

It is also a fact that the average cruising boat is not set up for
efficient light wind sailing. That requires a lot of attention to
minimizing weight, top notch sails in flawless condition, an
obsession with keeping the bottom/keel/rudder smooth and clean, etc.


You mean like a spinnaker? I think there's another... not a gennaker...
can't think of it. Sort of between the two.

Sailboats that are really serious about performance don't carry just
one spinnaker, more like 3, 4 or 5, one for every possible wind
strength and apparent wind angle. Nothing improves a boats light wind
speed like a spinnaker but the wind has to be from the right
direction, and it takes crew with expertise to set, douse and trim
them. An experienced crew on a racing sailboat, as conditions change,
can set a new spinnaker inside the old one, douse the original, and
continue on with no loss in speed during the maneuver.

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:28:13 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

I never liked engines.

A lot of sailboat owners feel that way, and it is one of the reasons
that so many sailboats have engine problems. Every boat needs someone
who can empathize with an engine and keep it happy.

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On Apr 21, 3:28*pm, "nom=de=plume" wrote:
"Brian Welcott" wrote in message

...





"nom=de=plume" wrote in
:

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
.
..
Even the best sailboat cannot sail much closer than 45 degrees to the
wind so this means at least 1/4 of the time you cannot sail directly
toward your destination (2*45 =90 which is 1/4 of 360). *On a loaded
cruising boat, you will be lucky to get to within 55 degrees of the
wind so this eliminates 110 out of 360 degrees or 30%.
Where I live, NO wind at least 1/2 the time leaving only 35% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. *About half the time while
trying to cruise, you get short of time so you end up motoring
directly toward your destination getting you down to 17.5% of the
time you can sail directly toward your destination. *Around here,
roughly 30% of the time the widn is blowing, it is a thunderstorm or
tropical storm getting you down to somewhere between 10 -13% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. *This is why cruising
sailboats need adequate engines.

Interesting numbers. Of course, out here the wind is pretty high I
think. By adequate... what do you mean? It needs to power the boat in
most conditions, but if you're offshore and there's wind, you're
likely sailing right? I can see needing something adequate in the bay
or on the coast. The link I found said the boat had a 50hp, which
seems pretty good for a 42' boat. Perhaps fuel capacity is also an
important issue...

Much of this has to do with your "sailing" personality.
Despite what the OP has said, there are plenty of cruising sailors who
seldom use an engine.
Even a knot of wind will move a boat, and zephyrs of 2-5 knots are often
at work even on flat seas.
Dead calm conditions are not common for cruisers.

Hey, I saw that movie! :)





The impatient will turn on the engine, others will wait for the wind to
return.
Against the wind tacking is part of sailing, so all these points of
compass wind direction percentages are pretty meaningless.
Unless you are a stinkpotter at heart.
Note how this fellow has managed to work it out that in essence you can
sail only 10-13% of the time.
Yet I know sailors who commonly sail off anchor in almost calm
conditions, and only rarely motor off.
With them, it is motoring that might comprise 10% of their movement.
Sails are not meant to get you from one place to another quickly.
If your goal is to move from port to port expeditiously, you will usually
find yourself motoring.
If you are a "sail" sailor at heart, you will nearly always sail, and the
wind will set your schedule. *Impatience is not an option, nor desired.
This is not to say an engine isn't useful, or that one should not use an
engine, or even that mostly motoring a sailboat isn't a valid option.
And an engine greatly enhances safety in many circumstances.
What I am suggesting is that you should well know your inclinations
before selecting your boat.
You may be a stinkpotter at heart, and find a trawler more suitable.
There are also motor-sailors available if you want to hedge your bet.

Regards, Brian

I never liked engines. Didn't have one certainly when I had the Hobie. We
did beach starts all the time... mostly in fact.

--
Nom=de=Plume- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Then again, isn't launching a Hobie a bit diffrent than a 40 ft.
cutter?

Im not a blow boater, but I'd think that on that size of a craft I'd
want at least a 65 hp diesel. And a good one too!

Realistic cruising under sail
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:31:01 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

Heh, what makes you think that trawlers are cheap? Have you bought
800 gallons of diesel recently in a foreign country?


I can't imagine it.. you've gotta be made of money. :)

Not really, just comfortable and frugal with the unnecessary.

Guys I used to work with would joke around and say things like:
"Wayne, you must really be wealthy having all these boats".

I'd always reply that they didn't understand how it works, that I
might really be wealthy if I didn't have any boats at all.

Since you are thinking about buying a boat, the moral of the story is
to be careful what you ask for.


Isn't that true with just about everything. I went through this on my way to
my business. Got two concurrent undergrad degrees, then got two concurrent
grad degrees. Got my "dream" job at a big firm, then did consulting with a
partner for companies for even more bucks. Then, realized I was totally
wasting my time working for other people. I had no reason to believe my
hobbie would turn into a profitable business, which is actually pretty fun.
And, I still get to help the individual inventor from time to time. At this
point, we're talking about chucking it all for 2-3 years, and seeing how it
goes, with no agenda other than exploring.

Perhaps you're wealthy because you have boats (I read that right... boats?).

--
Nom=de=Plume

Realistic cruising under sail
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:32:15 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

It is also a fact that the average cruising boat is not set up for
efficient light wind sailing. That requires a lot of attention to
minimizing weight, top notch sails in flawless condition, an
obsession with keeping the bottom/keel/rudder smooth and clean, etc.


You mean like a spinnaker? I think there's another... not a gennaker...
can't think of it. Sort of between the two.

Sailboats that are really serious about performance don't carry just
one spinnaker, more like 3, 4 or 5, one for every possible wind
strength and apparent wind angle. Nothing improves a boats light wind
speed like a spinnaker but the wind has to be from the right
direction, and it takes crew with expertise to set, douse and trim
them. An experienced crew on a racing sailboat, as conditions change,
can set a new spinnaker inside the old one, douse the original, and
continue on with no loss in speed during the maneuver.


I suppose... not interested in racing, but I get your point.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Realistic cruising under sail
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:28:13 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

I never liked engines.

A lot of sailboat owners feel that way, and it is one of the reasons
that so many sailboats have engine problems. Every boat needs someone
who can empathize with an engine and keep it happy.


Yeah, I think that would mostly not be me. But, point taken. Perhaps a
diesel maintenance class would be worth it.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Realistic cruising under sail
 

"Tim" wrote in message
...
On Apr 21, 3:28 pm, "nom=de=plume" wrote:
"Brian Welcott" wrote in message

...





"nom=de=plume" wrote in
:

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
.
..
Even the best sailboat cannot sail much closer than 45 degrees to the
wind so this means at least 1/4 of the time you cannot sail directly
toward your destination (2*45 =90 which is 1/4 of 360). On a loaded
cruising boat, you will be lucky to get to within 55 degrees of the
wind so this eliminates 110 out of 360 degrees or 30%.
Where I live, NO wind at least 1/2 the time leaving only 35% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. About half the time while
trying to cruise, you get short of time so you end up motoring
directly toward your destination getting you down to 17.5% of the
time you can sail directly toward your destination. Around here,
roughly 30% of the time the widn is blowing, it is a thunderstorm or
tropical storm getting you down to somewhere between 10 -13% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. This is why cruising
sailboats need adequate engines.

Interesting numbers. Of course, out here the wind is pretty high I
think. By adequate... what do you mean? It needs to power the boat in
most conditions, but if you're offshore and there's wind, you're
likely sailing right? I can see needing something adequate in the bay
or on the coast. The link I found said the boat had a 50hp, which
seems pretty good for a 42' boat. Perhaps fuel capacity is also an
important issue...

Much of this has to do with your "sailing" personality.
Despite what the OP has said, there are plenty of cruising sailors who
seldom use an engine.
Even a knot of wind will move a boat, and zephyrs of 2-5 knots are often
at work even on flat seas.
Dead calm conditions are not common for cruisers.

Hey, I saw that movie! :)





The impatient will turn on the engine, others will wait for the wind to
return.
Against the wind tacking is part of sailing, so all these points of
compass wind direction percentages are pretty meaningless.
Unless you are a stinkpotter at heart.
Note how this fellow has managed to work it out that in essence you can
sail only 10-13% of the time.
Yet I know sailors who commonly sail off anchor in almost calm
conditions, and only rarely motor off.
With them, it is motoring that might comprise 10% of their movement.
Sails are not meant to get you from one place to another quickly.
If your goal is to move from port to port expeditiously, you will
usually
find yourself motoring.
If you are a "sail" sailor at heart, you will nearly always sail, and
the
wind will set your schedule. Impatience is not an option, nor desired.
This is not to say an engine isn't useful, or that one should not use an
engine, or even that mostly motoring a sailboat isn't a valid option.
And an engine greatly enhances safety in many circumstances.
What I am suggesting is that you should well know your inclinations
before selecting your boat.
You may be a stinkpotter at heart, and find a trawler more suitable.
There are also motor-sailors available if you want to hedge your bet.

Regards, Brian

I never liked engines. Didn't have one certainly when I had the Hobie. We
did beach starts all the time... mostly in fact.

--
Nom=de=Plume- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Then again, isn't launching a Hobie a bit diffrent than a 40 ft.
cutter?

Sheesh... I *hope* so! That boat took two of us and sometimes some help.

Im not a blow boater, but I'd think that on that size of a craft I'd
want at least a 65 hp diesel. And a good one too!

I've never read of anything over a 50hp, but I don't really know.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Realistic cruising under sail
 

nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...

Even the best sailboat cannot sail much closer than 45 degrees to the
wind so this means at least 1/4 of the time you cannot sail directly
toward your destination (2*45 =90 which is 1/4 of 360). On a loaded
cruising boat, you will be lucky to get to within 55 degrees of the
wind so this eliminates 110 out of 360 degrees or 30%.
Where I live, NO wind at least 1/2 the time leaving only 35% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. About half the time while
trying to cruise, you get short of time so you end up motoring
directly toward your destination getting you down to 17.5% of the time
you can sail directly toward your destination. Around here, roughly
30% of the time the widn is blowing, it is a thunderstorm or tropical
storm getting you down to somewhere between 10 -13% of the time you
can sail toward your destination. This is why cruising sailboats need
adequate engines.


Interesting numbers. Of course, out here the wind is pretty high I think. By
adequate... what do you mean? It needs to power the boat in most conditions,
but if you're offshore and there's wind, you're likely sailing right? I can
see needing something adequate in the bay or on the coast. The link I found
said the boat had a 50hp, which seems pretty good for a 42' boat. Perhaps
fuel capacity is also an important issue...


Perhaps?

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On Apr 21, 5:45*pm, "nom=de=plume" wrote:
"Tim" wrote in message

...
On Apr 21, 3:28 pm, "nom=de=plume" wrote:



"Brian Welcott" wrote in message

.. .

"nom=de=plume" wrote in
:

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
.
..
Even the best sailboat cannot sail much closer than 45 degrees to the
wind so this means at least 1/4 of the time you cannot sail directly
toward your destination (2*45 =90 which is 1/4 of 360). On a loaded
cruising boat, you will be lucky to get to within 55 degrees of the
wind so this eliminates 110 out of 360 degrees or 30%.
Where I live, NO wind at least 1/2 the time leaving only 35% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. About half the time while
trying to cruise, you get short of time so you end up motoring
directly toward your destination getting you down to 17.5% of the
time you can sail directly toward your destination. Around here,
roughly 30% of the time the widn is blowing, it is a thunderstorm or
tropical storm getting you down to somewhere between 10 -13% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. This is why cruising
sailboats need adequate engines.

Interesting numbers. Of course, out here the wind is pretty high I
think. By adequate... what do you mean? It needs to power the boat in
most conditions, but if you're offshore and there's wind, you're
likely sailing right? I can see needing something adequate in the bay
or on the coast. The link I found said the boat had a 50hp, which
seems pretty good for a 42' boat. Perhaps fuel capacity is also an
important issue...

Much of this has to do with your "sailing" personality.
Despite what the OP has said, there are plenty of cruising sailors who
seldom use an engine.
Even a knot of wind will move a boat, and zephyrs of 2-5 knots are often
at work even on flat seas.
Dead calm conditions are not common for cruisers.

Hey, I saw that movie! :)

The impatient will turn on the engine, others will wait for the wind to
return.
Against the wind tacking is part of sailing, so all these points of
compass wind direction percentages are pretty meaningless.
Unless you are a stinkpotter at heart.
Note how this fellow has managed to work it out that in essence you can
sail only 10-13% of the time.
Yet I know sailors who commonly sail off anchor in almost calm
conditions, and only rarely motor off.
With them, it is motoring that might comprise 10% of their movement.
Sails are not meant to get you from one place to another quickly.
If your goal is to move from port to port expeditiously, you will
usually
find yourself motoring.
If you are a "sail" sailor at heart, you will nearly always sail, and
the
wind will set your schedule. Impatience is not an option, nor desired..
This is not to say an engine isn't useful, or that one should not use an
engine, or even that mostly motoring a sailboat isn't a valid option.
And an engine greatly enhances safety in many circumstances.
What I am suggesting is that you should well know your inclinations
before selecting your boat.
You may be a stinkpotter at heart, and find a trawler more suitable.
There are also motor-sailors available if you want to hedge your bet.

Regards, Brian

I never liked engines. Didn't have one certainly when I had the Hobie. We
did beach starts all the time... mostly in fact.

--
Nom=de=Plume- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Then again, isn't launching a *Hobie a bit diffrent than a 40 ft.
cutter?

Sheesh... I *hope* so! That boat took two of us and sometimes some help.

Im not a blow boater, but I'd think that on that size of a craft I'd
want at least a 65 hp diesel. And a good one too!

I've never read of anything over a 50hp, but I don't really know.

--
Nom=de=Plume

There's a lot of sail boats that have 125 hp on up. The Ford Lehman
diesels are or at least were a popular marine engine for large sailers
as well as trawlers.

I know this is a 72 ft'r but it has twin Leymans at 120 hp each.

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:09:16 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

There's a lot of sail boats that have 125 hp on up. The Ford Lehman
diesels are or at least were a popular marine engine for large sailers
as well as trawlers.

I know this is a 72 ft'r but it has twin Leymans at 120 hp each.

It turns out that the horsepower required for a boat to reach so
called hull speed is mostly a function of weight, and it is a
surprisingly small number for boats less than 100 tons or so.
Then you have to add in a fudge factor however for adverse conditions,
plus parasitic losses for things like alternators, refrigeration
compressors, hydraulic pumps, etc. There are also losses in the
transmission and cutlass bearings. A 70,000 pound trawler in theory
needs less than 90 hp to reach hull speed but to have reasonable
margins of safety you need 3 or 4 times that much.

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On Apr 21, 7:17*pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:09:16 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

There's a lot of sail boats that have 125 hp on up. The Ford Lehman
diesels are or at least were a popular marine engine for large sailers
as well as trawlers.

I know this is a 72 ft'r but it has twin Leymans at 120 hp each.

It turns out that the horsepower required for a boat to reach so
called hull speed is mostly a function of weight, and it is a
surprisingly small number for boats less than 100 tons or so.
Then you have to add in a fudge factor however for adverse conditions,
plus parasitic losses for things like alternators, refrigeration
compressors, hydraulic pumps, etc. * There are also losses in the
transmission and cutlass bearings. * A 70,000 pound trawler in theory
needs less than 90 hp to reach hull speed *but to have reasonable
margins of safety you need 3 or 4 times that much.

My 28' S2 weighs 7700 lbs. If the required power is directly
proportional to weight then my 13 hp diesel is enough.

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:07:54 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

My 28' S2 weighs 7700 lbs. If the required power is directly
proportional to weight then my 13 hp diesel is enough.

It's certainly enough most of the time. We had a Westerly 28 many
years ago that I repowered with a 13 hp Volvo diesel. It was about
the same weight as yours and the engine was fine for all normal
conditions. We never got hit with any really ugly weather with that
engine however.

Our next boat was a Cal-34 that weighed about 10,000 lbs. It had a 30
hp Atomic 4 gas engine that was always more than adequate. I was once
hit with a 60 kt white squall with that boat on open ocean north of
Cape Cod. There was plenty of advance warning and we rode it out with
a triple reefed main, slowly motoring about 40 or 50 degrees off the
wind. There were no problems with control or power in those
conditions but it was over in less than 30 minutes. The biggest issue
was visibility. You really need something like ski goggles or a pilot
house when the wind is blowing like that.

Realistic cruising under sail
 

"Larry" wrote in message
...
nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...

Even the best sailboat cannot sail much closer than 45 degrees to the
wind so this means at least 1/4 of the time you cannot sail directly
toward your destination (2*45 =90 which is 1/4 of 360). On a loaded
cruising boat, you will be lucky to get to within 55 degrees of the
wind so this eliminates 110 out of 360 degrees or 30%.
Where I live, NO wind at least 1/2 the time leaving only 35% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. About half the time while
trying to cruise, you get short of time so you end up motoring
directly toward your destination getting you down to 17.5% of the time
you can sail directly toward your destination. Around here, roughly
30% of the time the widn is blowing, it is a thunderstorm or tropical
storm getting you down to somewhere between 10 -13% of the time you
can sail toward your destination. This is why cruising sailboats need
adequate engines.


Interesting numbers. Of course, out here the wind is pretty high I think.
By
adequate... what do you mean? It needs to power the boat in most
conditions,
but if you're offshore and there's wind, you're likely sailing right? I
can
see needing something adequate in the bay or on the coast. The link I
found
said the boat had a 50hp, which seems pretty good for a 42' boat. Perhaps
fuel capacity is also an important issue...


Perhaps?


Well, again, if you're sailing and mostly relying on the wind, then the only
time you need the engine is in/out of a harbor or charging batteries (and
perhaps a couple of other uses like refridgeration). Seems to me if you're
conservative about how you use the engine, then it might not be such a big
deal.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On Apr 21, 9:17*pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:09:16 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

There's a lot of sail boats that have 125 hp on up. The Ford Lehman
diesels are or at least were a popular marine engine for large sailers
as well as trawlers.

I know this is a 72 ft'r but it has twin Leymans at 120 hp each.

It turns out that the horsepower required for a boat to reach so
called hull speed is mostly a function of weight, and it is a
surprisingly small number for boats less than 100 tons or so.
Then you have to add in a fudge factor however for adverse conditions,
plus parasitic losses for things like alternators, refrigeration
compressors, hydraulic pumps, etc. * There are also losses in the
transmission and cutlass bearings. * A 70,000 pound trawler in theory
needs less than 90 hp to reach hull speed *but to have reasonable
margins of safety you need 3 or 4 times that much.

That's kid of what i was thinking Wayne. especially for the 'adverse
conditions' . in a bad storm I'd want to make it to a port or at least
to a harbor as fast as I could. But like I said, I'm not a blow
boater, but it would be nice to have all the punch you could get when
it's called upon.

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On Apr 22, 10:00*am, Tim wrote:
On Apr 21, 9:17*pm, Wayne.B wrote:



On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:09:16 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

There's a lot of sail boats that have 125 hp on up. The Ford Lehman
diesels are or at least were a popular marine engine for large sailers
as well as trawlers.

I know this is a 72 ft'r but it has twin Leymans at 120 hp each.

It turns out that the horsepower required for a boat to reach so
called hull speed is mostly a function of weight, and it is a
surprisingly small number for boats less than 100 tons or so.
Then you have to add in a fudge factor however for adverse conditions,
plus parasitic losses for things like alternators, refrigeration
compressors, hydraulic pumps, etc. * There are also losses in the
transmission and cutlass bearings. * A 70,000 pound trawler in theory
needs less than 90 hp to reach hull speed *but to have reasonable
margins of safety you need 3 or 4 times that much.

That's kid of what i was thinking Wayne. especially for the 'adverse
conditions' . in a bad storm I'd want to make it to a port or at least
to a harbor as fast as I could. But like I said, I'm not a blow
boater, but it would be nice to have all the punch you could get when
it's called upon.

I'd almost like to have an Atomic 4 engine, small, reliable and enough
power. If one is careful a gasoline engine can be very safe.

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On 4/22/10 10:35 AM, Frogwatch wrote:
On Apr 22, 10:00 am, wrote:
On Apr 21, 9:17 pm, wrote:



On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:09:16 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

There's a lot of sail boats that have 125 hp on up. The Ford Lehman
diesels are or at least were a popular marine engine for large sailers
as well as trawlers.

I know this is a 72 ft'r but it has twin Leymans at 120 hp each.

It turns out that the horsepower required for a boat to reach so
called hull speed is mostly a function of weight, and it is a
surprisingly small number for boats less than 100 tons or so.
Then you have to add in a fudge factor however for adverse conditions,
plus parasitic losses for things like alternators, refrigeration
compressors, hydraulic pumps, etc. There are also losses in the
transmission and cutlass bearings. A 70,000 pound trawler in theory
needs less than 90 hp to reach hull speed but to have reasonable
margins of safety you need 3 or 4 times that much.

That's kid of what i was thinking Wayne. especially for the 'adverse
conditions' . in a bad storm I'd want to make it to a port or at least
to a harbor as fast as I could. But like I said, I'm not a blow
boater, but it would be nice to have all the punch you could get when
it's called upon.

I'd almost like to have an Atomic 4 engine, small, reliable and enough
power. If one is careful a gasoline engine can be very safe.

In someone else's boat, maybe. Not in yours.


--
The Tea Party's teabaggers are just the Republican base by another name.

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 07:35:04 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

I'd almost like to have an Atomic 4 engine, small, reliable and enough
power. If one is careful a gasoline engine can be very safe.

Smooth, quiet, powerful, reliable and easy to work on. What's not to
like? We used to use ours a lot when cruising, typically motor
sailing in light air with the engine a little above idle. It would
run for a day like that on very little fuel and so quiet you hardly
knew it was on.

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On Apr 22, 5:24*pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 07:35:04 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch

wrote:
I'd almost like to have an Atomic 4 engine, small, reliable and enough
power. *If one is careful a gasoline engine can be very safe.

Smooth, quiet, powerful, reliable and easy to work on. * What's not to
like? *We used to use ours a lot when cruising, typically motor
sailing in light air with the engine a little above idle. * It would
run for a day like that on very little fuel and so quiet you hardly
knew it was on.

I did som reading on the atomic-4 and it was a success from about 1947
to about 1984 when production ceased. I know they didn't change very
much but what was it's demise? Couldn't meet EPA? or just an out dated
flathead? Or a combination of a bunch of things?

Realistic cruising under sail
 

"Tim" wrote in message
...
On Apr 22, 5:24 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 07:35:04 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch

wrote:
I'd almost like to have an Atomic 4 engine, small, reliable and enough
power. If one is careful a gasoline engine can be very safe.

Smooth, quiet, powerful, reliable and easy to work on. What's not to
like? We used to use ours a lot when cruising, typically motor
sailing in light air with the engine a little above idle. It would
run for a day like that on very little fuel and so quiet you hardly
knew it was on.

I did som reading on the atomic-4 and it was a success from about 1947
to about 1984 when production ceased. I know they didn't change very
much but what was it's demise? Couldn't meet EPA? or just an out dated
flathead? Or a combination of a bunch of things?


Maybe it was the name. :)

--
Nom=de=Plume

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:30:53 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

I did som reading on the atomic-4 and it was a success from about 1947
to about 1984 when production ceased. I know they didn't change very
much but what was it's demise? Couldn't meet EPA? or just an out dated
flathead? Or a combination of a bunch of things?

I think it was a combination of things. Up until the late 70s, early
80s there were not a lot of choices for small marine engines. Volvo
made some small diesels but they were pricey, and to a certain extent,
a bit quirky. Then about that time Yanmars began coming into the US
in great numbers from Japan and at reasonable prices. Buyers and
builders began to percieve diesels as a better value and safer choice.
The rest is history.

One nice thing about the Volvos is that they were relatively easy to
crank start by hand thanks to large fly wheels and a compression
release lever. The trick was to open the compression release, get
the fly wheel spinning at a good clip with the crank, and then close
the release lever. The fly wheel had enough momentum to kick it over
a few times and get the engine started.

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On Apr 22, 8:51*pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:30:53 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

I did som reading on the atomic-4 and it was a success from about 1947
to about 1984 when production ceased. I know they didn't change very
much but what was it's demise? Couldn't meet EPA? or just an out dated
flathead? *Or a combination of a bunch of things?

I think it was a combination of things. *Up until the late 70s, early
80s there were not a lot of choices for small marine engines. *Volvo
made some small diesels but they were pricey, and to a certain extent,
a bit quirky. *Then about that time Yanmars began coming into the US
in great numbers from Japan and at reasonable prices. * Buyers and
builders began to percieve diesels as a better value and safer choice.
The rest is history.

One nice thing about the Volvos is that they were relatively easy to
crank start by hand thanks to large fly wheels and a compression
release lever. * The trick was to open the compression release, get
the fly wheel spinning at a good clip with the crank, and then close
the release lever. * The fly wheel had enough momentum to kick it over
a few times and get the engine started. *

I've never been able to hand crank my diesel, either the 6.5 hp nor
the 13 hp even by releasing the compression. On cold mornings, even
with new batteries, I have to release the compression to get the
engine turning to lube it before it will start. These little Yanmar
diesels are really amazingly simple and reliable. The biggest problem
is they use so little fuel that the fuel grows algae that clogs
filters and injectors.
Just for fun, I'd like to get an old Atomic 4 and re-build it.
There are a lot of used small diesels are available these days from
hurricane wrecked sailboats whereas for years they were rare to
find.
When I replaced the engine, the boat was on stands in my backyard
with the mast down and no easily available trees to hoist the engines,
it was like moving statues on Easter Island to get that engine out and
down and then the heavier new one up and in place. Once in the
compartment, it dropped right in place and lined up nicely.

Realistic cruising under sail
 

On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 21:04:25 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

I've never been able to hand crank my diesel, either the 6.5 hp nor
the 13 hp even by releasing the compression.

Is it a Yanmar? If so they have much smaller/lighter fly wheels than
the old Volvo engines, and don't have enough angular momentum to carry
the piston through a compression stroke after you close the valve.