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Cruising and reality
"Larry" wrote in message
... nom=de=plume wrote: wrote in message ... On Apr 17, 8:05 am, "Peter (Yes, that wrote: In , says... wrote in message ... On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 21:01:09 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: .. wouldn't a newer boat in the size I mentioned from a reputable US manufacturer be powered properly? This is what Froggy is saying "properly" depends on which side of the compromise you want to come down on. You can have a fast power boat with sails or a fast sailboat with a motor but both at the same time is hard to do. My understanding is that the engine on a cruising type boat would be able to bring the boat to "hull" speed. You can't really go faster than that, so I suppose the appropriate engine would be one that could do that (or nearly so)? 1.34 x sq. rt of water line? So, assuming there's overhang on a 42' boat, say the water line is 40' the max speed would be about 8.5. Of course, if it were not pushing all the water, skimming, then you could go faster. They call "skimming" "planing" here. And you are correct. But many hull types are incapable of planing. Peter Displacement hull sailboats cannot plane which is why they need so little power. Manufacturers generally use an engine just big enough to get to hull speed. I do not think that is enough for a real cruising boat because a real cruising boat will spend far more of its time under power than people realize AND because sometimes it will be used in conditions when a lot of power is needed for safety. For the size boat Nom is considering, a 4 cylinder diesel would be good and they normally have sufficient power. The problems come in with smaller boats when it is a compromise between a 1 or 2 cylinder or a slighter larger boat betwen a 2 and 3 cylinder. She prob does not need to worry about the engine. Reply: I would never worry about the engine. That's someone else's area. Yet you are dwelling on it here. You're a troll. You're not too bright. Did I mention you're stupid? -- Nom=de=Plume |
Cruising and reality
"Larry" wrote in message
... nom=de=plume wrote: wrote in message ... On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 21:01:09 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: .. wouldn't a newer boat in the size I mentioned from a reputable US manufacturer be powered properly? This is what Froggy is saying "properly" depends on which side of the compromise you want to come down on. You can have a fast power boat with sails or a fast sailboat with a motor but both at the same time is hard to do. My understanding is that the engine on a cruising type boat would be able to bring the boat to "hull" speed. You can't really go faster than that, so I suppose the appropriate engine would be one that could do that (or nearly so)? 1.34 x sq. rt of water line? So, assuming there's overhang on a 42' boat, say the water line is 40' the max speed would be about 8.5. Of course, if it were not pushing all the water, skimming, then you could go faster. It's not that simple. Size is one thing. Then there is displacement, hull design, load distribution, etc. Even those factors don't limit speed. I really hope this isn't a troll or I'm wasting my time... Imagine a cruise ship. They have displacement hulls. They don't "skim" or plane (the correct term). Their speed is not limited solely by hull design. If they add more HP, the ship will move faster. You are looking at a sailboat, right? Why all of this interest in speed from the diesel? Max hull speed is not changeable unless you change some feature of the hull or it's orientation in the water. Even I know that. If you increase the water line, the boat can theoretically go faster. Displacement is displacement. You're pushing water out of the way. You call yourself a sailor?? Dummy.... dummy.... I was responding to someone else's post. If you don't understand that, then you and Canuck are in the running for dumbest of the dumb. -- Nom=de=Plume |
Cruising and reality
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m... "Larry" wrote in message ... nom=de=plume wrote: wrote in message ... On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 21:01:09 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: .. wouldn't a newer boat in the size I mentioned from a reputable US manufacturer be powered properly? This is what Froggy is saying "properly" depends on which side of the compromise you want to come down on. You can have a fast power boat with sails or a fast sailboat with a motor but both at the same time is hard to do. My understanding is that the engine on a cruising type boat would be able to bring the boat to "hull" speed. You can't really go faster than that, so I suppose the appropriate engine would be one that could do that (or nearly so)? 1.34 x sq. rt of water line? So, assuming there's overhang on a 42' boat, say the water line is 40' the max speed would be about 8.5. Of course, if it were not pushing all the water, skimming, then you could go faster. It's not that simple. Size is one thing. Then there is displacement, hull design, load distribution, etc. Even those factors don't limit speed. I really hope this isn't a troll or I'm wasting my time... Imagine a cruise ship. They have displacement hulls. They don't "skim" or plane (the correct term). Their speed is not limited solely by hull design. If they add more HP, the ship will move faster. You are looking at a sailboat, right? Why all of this interest in speed from the diesel? Cruise ships go slower than hull speed. But hull speed is pretty high on a 1000' long ship. Wasn't there one off Somalia that outran the pirates? I thought I read that from a few years ago. -- Nom=de=Plume |
Cruising and reality
"Larry" wrote in message
... nom=de=plume wrote: wrote in message ... On Apr 16, 6:59 pm, wrote: nom=de=plume wrote: But wouldn't a boat of the size I mentioned be powered with a decent engine? Seems like it would be, but I haven't really looked into it. You have a _lot_ of homework ahead of you. Getting the right prop is a major deal. Major controversy over fixed 2 blade fixed or 3 blade fixed because the 3 blade fixed hurts sailing performance about 1/2 kt but the 3 blade gives better motoring performance. There is a company that makes an oversize plastic composite prop called PerfectPitch that makes up for this but they are sorta unknown. Then, there are the folding props.................. Larry is a jerk. In any case, I ask again... wouldn't a newer boat in the size I mentioned from a reputable US manufacturer be powered properly? I'm not a jerk. You are throwing around all of this information and misinformation and you even have a budget attached to it. You are also asking questions that are rather basic. First it was a $2K Hobie and now it's a $300K sailing cruiser. Yes, you have a lot of homework to do. That is a very fair statement. Yes, you're a jerk and you don't know how to read. I defined a budget in my first post on the subject of boat buying. Go read for yourself. If you don't like basic questions (or more likely you're unable to answer them), then kindly shut up and let other people answer them instead of pushing your face into the discussion. First, I owned a $2K Hobie a long time ago. More recently, I was considering a Walker Bay for up here. I live 200 MILES from SF. I have relatives who want to sail UP HERE. I'm also considering going in on a boat with my friend, etc. Yes, you're a jerk. That's is a very fair statement. -- Nom=de=Plume |
Cruising and reality
"Canuck57" wrote in message
... On 17/04/2010 6:06 PM, Larry wrote: nom=de=plume wrote: wrote in message ... On Apr 16, 6:59 pm, wrote: nom=de=plume wrote: But wouldn't a boat of the size I mentioned be powered with a decent engine? Seems like it would be, but I haven't really looked into it. You have a _lot_ of homework ahead of you. Getting the right prop is a major deal. Major controversy over fixed 2 blade fixed or 3 blade fixed because the 3 blade fixed hurts sailing performance about 1/2 kt but the 3 blade gives better motoring performance. There is a company that makes an oversize plastic composite prop called PerfectPitch that makes up for this but they are sorta unknown. Then, there are the folding props.................. Larry is a jerk. In any case, I ask again... wouldn't a newer boat in the size I mentioned from a reputable US manufacturer be powered properly? I'm not a jerk. You are throwing around all of this information and misinformation and you even have a budget attached to it. You are also asking questions that are rather basic. First it was a $2K Hobie and now it's a $300K sailing cruiser. Yes, you have a lot of homework to do. That is a very fair statement. Forgive de-fumer, she hasn't had it in awhile. -- Time to ask ask, is our government serving us or are we serving the government? This from the pea brain who can't hold a job and who can't get into the US for love or money. -- Nom=de=Plume |
Cruising and reality
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Cruising and reality
wrote in message
... On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:15:47 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: wrote in message . .. On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 16:18:28 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: The smell of diesel, the most masculine cologne. NOT blech. -- You may be too young to remember the 70s when guys would spritz a little gasoline behind their ear in hopes a girl would think you worked in a gas station. Good grief... did any of them live? Gee whiz ... nothing? not even a mercy LOL? You must be too young to remember gas lines. ;-) There were people in line to spritz gas behind their ears?? :) -- Nom=de=Plume |
Cruising and reality
On Apr 18, 12:45*am, wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:15:47 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: wrote in message .. . On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 16:18:28 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: The smell of diesel, the most masculine cologne. NOT blech. -- You may be too young to remember the 70s *when guys would spritz a little gasoline behind their ear in hopes a girl would think you worked in a gas station. Good grief... did any of them live? Gee whiz ... nothing? not even a mercy LOL? You must be too young to remember gas lines. *;-)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I remember them. Wait in lne for a hour so you could get $5.00 of gas and that was the limit. And if you were lucky you could get gas before the station ran out. It was rationed to them too! |
Cruising and reality
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Cruising and reality
wrote in message
... On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 15:08:37 -0700 (PDT), Tim wrote: On Apr 18, 12:45 am, wrote: On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:15:47 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: wrote in message .. . On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 16:18:28 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: The smell of diesel, the most masculine cologne. NOT blech. -- You may be too young to remember the 70s when guys would spritz a little gasoline behind their ear in hopes a girl would think you worked in a gas station. Good grief... did any of them live? Gee whiz ... nothing? not even a mercy LOL? You must be too young to remember gas lines. ;-)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I remember them. Wait in lne for a hour so you could get $5.00 of gas and that was the limit. And if you were lucky you could get gas before the station ran out. It was rationed to them too! I am sure Plume would be flirting with the gas station guy to try to get an extra few gallons. I do remember parking in the gas station in the middle of the night so I would be there when they opened. I also had a odd/even permit so I could get gas on either day. It would probably work. I'm a good flirter. -- Nom=de=Plume |
Cruising and reality
On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 18:28:22 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote: There's a guy locally that has a huge 80+ foot whatever moored and slipped at Kentucky lake, and it sits. In the fall, he'll fire it up and tool it down to Fla. and slip it there, and fly back. Then in the spring, he'll fly back down, fire it up and cruise back to Ky. Lake. And ti sits. He's done that for years. i never saw much future in that, really. It's called owning a floating condominium. There are quite a few of them. The *really* wealthy guys will typically have a professional captain and crew to move the "condominium" around for them. |
Cruising and reality
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 10:01:29 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote: 6.5 hp diesel? What make? kubota? Yannmar? Lombardini? I'm surprised that 6.5 could push anything of that size. other than a small riding mower. You'd be surprised. Sailboat hulls, especially a racing sailboat that is well maintained, have very slippery hulls. In flat water, no wind and no current it takes almost nothing to get tthem moving. I was once out cruising and racing on a 40 footer that lost its prop. We lashed a dinghy along side like a tugboat and used its little 2 hp Evinrude to bring the big boat into the dock. |
Cruising and reality
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 10:24:10 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote: But wouldn't a boat of the size I mentioned be powered with a decent engine? Seems like it would be, but I haven't really looked into it. A 40 ft cruising sailboat would typically have a diesel in the 30 to 40 hp range. In flat water and no wind that's enough for 6 1/2 to 7 kts if the bottom is clean. |
Cruising and reality
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 23:07:17 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote: My understanding is that the engine on a cruising type boat would be able to bring the boat to "hull" speed. You can't really go faster than that, so I suppose the appropriate engine would be one that could do that (or nearly so)? 1.34 x sq. rt of water line? So, assuming there's overhang on a 42' boat, say the water line is 40' the max speed would be about 8.5. Of course, if it were not pushing all the water, skimming, then you could go faster. As I stated previously it doesn't take a lot of power to get a sailboat moving at close to hull speed in flat water and no wind. It takes a lot more power however, and a large prop, to get the same boat moving against 25 kts of wind and 6 ft seas. You have to decide what kind of conditions you are likely to encounter. There is nothing worse than being caught out in a raging wind squall with an under powered boat, and a lee shore close at hand. |
Cruising and reality
Tim wrote:
On Apr 18, 12:45 am, wrote: On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:15:47 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: wrote in message ... On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 16:18:28 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: The smell of diesel, the most masculine cologne. NOT blech. -- You may be too young to remember the 70s when guys would spritz a little gasoline behind their ear in hopes a girl would think you worked in a gas station. Good grief... did any of them live? Gee whiz ... nothing? not even a mercy LOL? You must be too young to remember gas lines. ;-)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I remember them. Wait in lne for a hour so you could get $5.00 of gas and that was the limit. And if you were lucky you could get gas before the station ran out. It was rationed to them too! What is $5.00 get you back then? 10 gallons or so? |
Cruising and reality
wrote in message ... On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 15:08:37 -0700 (PDT), Tim wrote: On Apr 18, 12:45 am, wrote: On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:15:47 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: wrote in message .. . On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 16:18:28 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: The smell of diesel, the most masculine cologne. NOT blech. -- You may be too young to remember the 70s when guys would spritz a little gasoline behind their ear in hopes a girl would think you worked in a gas station. Good grief... did any of them live? Gee whiz ... nothing? not even a mercy LOL? You must be too young to remember gas lines. ;-)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I remember them. Wait in lne for a hour so you could get $5.00 of gas and that was the limit. And if you were lucky you could get gas before the station ran out. It was rationed to them too! I am sure Plume would be flirting with the gas station guy to try to get an extra few gallons. I do remember parking in the gas station in the middle of the night so I would be there when they opened. I also had a odd/even permit so I could get gas on either day. I owned a company with delivery trucks and we were exempt. Commercial plates were exempt from the odd even. Was nice my pickup was exempt and there was a station near my house that was sort of out of the way and wife could normally fill up without a wait. The delivery trucks fueled at a Cardlock station, so we could fill the family vehicles also 24/7. Biggest problem was we had to get the drivers to put in a little more than they need for the route, as we had lots of people deciding to climb the fence and siphon gas. And steal batteries. Later we went to diesel delivery trucks, which would have cut down on the theft. |
Cruising and reality
"Larry" wrote in message ... Tim wrote: On Apr 18, 12:45 am, wrote: On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:15:47 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: wrote in message ... On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 16:18:28 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: The smell of diesel, the most masculine cologne. NOT blech. -- You may be too young to remember the 70s when guys would spritz a little gasoline behind their ear in hopes a girl would think you worked in a gas station. Good grief... did any of them live? Gee whiz ... nothing? not even a mercy LOL? You must be too young to remember gas lines. ;-)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I remember them. Wait in lne for a hour so you could get $5.00 of gas and that was the limit. And if you were lucky you could get gas before the station ran out. It was rationed to them too! What is $5.00 get you back then? 10 gallons or so? Nope got you about 5 gallons. I think the day that I really realized how expensive gas was getting, was the day I filled up my 350 cc Kawasaki. 3.5 gallon tank and cost me a little over $5. Putting $25 in the van just did not strike you as bad as $5 in a small motorcycle. |
Cruising and reality
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 23:07:17 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: My understanding is that the engine on a cruising type boat would be able to bring the boat to "hull" speed. You can't really go faster than that, so I suppose the appropriate engine would be one that could do that (or nearly so)? 1.34 x sq. rt of water line? So, assuming there's overhang on a 42' boat, say the water line is 40' the max speed would be about 8.5. Of course, if it were not pushing all the water, skimming, then you could go faster. As I stated previously it doesn't take a lot of power to get a sailboat moving at close to hull speed in flat water and no wind. It takes a lot more power however, and a large prop, to get the same boat moving against 25 kts of wind and 6 ft seas. You have to decide what kind of conditions you are likely to encounter. There is nothing worse than being caught out in a raging wind squall with an under powered boat, and a lee shore close at hand. I can imagine. Our thinking is that with a fairly new sailboat in the 40-foot range, it would likely have a decent engine. I'm sure that would be part of the go/no-go decision for buying. I can imagine it would be fairly expensive to repower if it wasn't sized properly. My friends in Santa Cruz have a sailboat with a fairly small engine (30ish foot boat). I think the hp was maybe 15... something like that. A larger boat.. maybe 50 hp? I think that's what I saw at the boat show. -- Nom=de=Plume |
Cruising and reality
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 10:24:10 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: But wouldn't a boat of the size I mentioned be powered with a decent engine? Seems like it would be, but I haven't really looked into it. A 40 ft cruising sailboat would typically have a diesel in the 30 to 40 hp range. In flat water and no wind that's enough for 6 1/2 to 7 kts if the bottom is clean. Ok.. I just guessed/remembered seeing 50hp. So, that's pretty close. Seems like unless you're close to shore, you really don't need a lot of engine power. Maybe in a storm, but wouldn't the concern be running the engine without intake water or running out of fuel if you run it too long? I'm mean that's why it's a sailboat... to sail. -- Nom=de=Plume |
Cruising and reality
On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:46:58 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote: Seems like unless you're close to shore, you really don't need a lot of engine power. Maybe in a storm, but wouldn't the concern be running the engine without intake water or running out of fuel if you run it too long? I'm mean that's why it's a sailboat... to sail. There are two times when you need power on a sailboat: Bad weather and good weather. Most cruising sailboats spend more than 90% of their time underway with the engine running. Either the wind is from the wrong direction, too weak or too strong. |
Cruising and reality
On Apr 20, 2:31*am, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:46:58 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: Seems like unless you're close to shore, you really don't need a lot of engine power. Maybe in a storm, but wouldn't the concern be running the engine without intake water or running out of fuel if you run it too long? I'm mean that's why it's a sailboat... to sail. There are two times when you need power on a sailboat: Bad weather and good weather. * Most cruising sailboats spend more than 90% of their time underway with the engine running. *Either the wind is from the wrong direction, too weak or too strong. Not counting the fact of needing the engine to supply electrical power to modern refrigeration (if used) and navionics. (Is that a word?) |
Cruising and reality
On Apr 19, 9:23*pm, "Bill McKee" wrote:
wrote in message ... On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 15:08:37 -0700 (PDT), Tim wrote: On Apr 18, 12:45 am, wrote: On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:15:47 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: wrote in message .. . On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 16:18:28 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: The smell of diesel, the most masculine cologne. NOT blech. -- You may be too young to remember the 70s when guys would spritz a little gasoline behind their ear in hopes a girl would think you worked in a gas station. Good grief... did any of them live? Gee whiz ... nothing? not even a mercy LOL? You must be too young to remember gas lines. ;-)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I remember them. Wait in lne for a hour so you could get $5.00 of gas and that was the limit. And if you were lucky you could get gas before the station ran out. It was rationed to them too! I am sure Plume would be flirting with the gas station guy to try to get an extra few gallons. I do remember parking in the gas station in the middle of the night so I would be there when they opened. I also had a odd/even permit so I could get gas on either day. I owned a company with delivery trucks and we were exempt. *Commercial plates were exempt from the odd even. *Was nice my pickup was exempt and there was a station near my house that was sort of out of the way and wife could normally fill up without a wait. *The delivery trucks fueled at a Cardlock station, so we could fill the family vehicles also 24/7. *Biggest problem was we had to get the drivers to put in a little more than they need for the route, as we had lots of people deciding to climb the fence and siphon gas. *And steal batteries. *Later we went to diesel delivery trucks, which would have cut down on the theft.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Now they'll also steal the catalytic converters! |
Cruising and reality
On Apr 20, 8:10*am, Loogypicker wrote:
On Apr 19, 9:23*pm, "Bill McKee" wrote: wrote in message .. . On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 15:08:37 -0700 (PDT), Tim wrote: On Apr 18, 12:45 am, wrote: On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:15:47 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: wrote in message .. . On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 16:18:28 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: The smell of diesel, the most masculine cologne. NOT blech. -- You may be too young to remember the 70s when guys would spritz a little gasoline behind their ear in hopes a girl would think you worked in a gas station. Good grief... did any of them live? Gee whiz ... nothing? not even a mercy LOL? You must be too young to remember gas lines. ;-)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I remember them. Wait in lne for a hour so you could get $5.00 of gas and that was the limit. And if you were lucky you could get gas before the station ran out. It was rationed to them too! I am sure Plume would be flirting with the gas station guy to try to get an extra few gallons. I do remember parking in the gas station in the middle of the night so I would be there when they opened. I also had a odd/even permit so I could get gas on either day. I owned a company with delivery trucks and we were exempt. *Commercial plates were exempt from the odd even. *Was nice my pickup was exempt and there was a station near my house that was sort of out of the way and wife could normally fill up without a wait. *The delivery trucks fueled at a Cardlock station, so we could fill the family vehicles also 24/7. *Biggest problem was we had to get the drivers to put in a little more than they need for the route, as we had lots of people deciding to climb the fence and siphon gas. *And steal batteries. *Later we went to diesel delivery trucks, which would have cut down on the theft.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Now they'll also steal the catalytic converters!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - And aluminum rims. There's "easy-off" lug wrenches that will screw themselves onto the locking lug from the outside and back it right off. |
Cruising and reality
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:46:58 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: Seems like unless you're close to shore, you really don't need a lot of engine power. Maybe in a storm, but wouldn't the concern be running the engine without intake water or running out of fuel if you run it too long? I'm mean that's why it's a sailboat... to sail. There are two times when you need power on a sailboat: Bad weather and good weather. Most cruising sailboats spend more than 90% of their time underway with the engine running. Either the wind is from the wrong direction, too weak or too strong. I thought most sailboats spend more than 90% of their time sitting in a berth or anchored. :) Why would you need to run the engine offshore when there's lots of wind? Seems like it wouldn't help that much. I can understand needing to get away from a shoreline, but in the middle of an ocean? If it's really that bad, wouldn't you want to try and slow the boat? I saw parachutes for this at the boat show. -- Nom=de=Plume |
Cruising and reality
"Tim" wrote in message
... On Apr 20, 2:31 am, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:46:58 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: Seems like unless you're close to shore, you really don't need a lot of engine power. Maybe in a storm, but wouldn't the concern be running the engine without intake water or running out of fuel if you run it too long? I'm mean that's why it's a sailboat... to sail. There are two times when you need power on a sailboat: Bad weather and good weather. Most cruising sailboats spend more than 90% of their time underway with the engine running. Either the wind is from the wrong direction, too weak or too strong. Not counting the fact of needing the engine to supply electrical power to modern refrigeration (if used) and navionics. (Is that a word?) I don't think this requires a powerful engine... seems like it shouldn't. Don't people use generators that are separate from the main engine? -- Nom=de=Plume |
Cruising and reality
"Loogypicker" wrote in message ... On Apr 19, 9:23 pm, "Bill McKee" wrote: wrote in message ... No cats on these trucks. F550 class trucks. On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 15:08:37 -0700 (PDT), Tim wrote: On Apr 18, 12:45 am, wrote: On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:15:47 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: wrote in message .. . On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 16:18:28 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: The smell of diesel, the most masculine cologne. NOT blech. -- You may be too young to remember the 70s when guys would spritz a little gasoline behind their ear in hopes a girl would think you worked in a gas station. Good grief... did any of them live? Gee whiz ... nothing? not even a mercy LOL? You must be too young to remember gas lines. ;-)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I remember them. Wait in lne for a hour so you could get $5.00 of gas and that was the limit. And if you were lucky you could get gas before the station ran out. It was rationed to them too! I am sure Plume would be flirting with the gas station guy to try to get an extra few gallons. I do remember parking in the gas station in the middle of the night so I would be there when they opened. I also had a odd/even permit so I could get gas on either day. I owned a company with delivery trucks and we were exempt. Commercial plates were exempt from the odd even. Was nice my pickup was exempt and there was a station near my house that was sort of out of the way and wife could normally fill up without a wait. The delivery trucks fueled at a Cardlock station, so we could fill the family vehicles also 24/7. Biggest problem was we had to get the drivers to put in a little more than they need for the route, as we had lots of people deciding to climb the fence and siphon gas. And steal batteries. Later we went to diesel delivery trucks, which would have cut down on the theft.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Now they'll also steal the catalytic converters! |
Cruising and reality
On Apr 20, 12:46*pm, "nom=de=plume" wrote:
"Tim" wrote in message ... On Apr 20, 2:31 am, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:46:58 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: Seems like unless you're close to shore, you really don't need a lot of engine power. Maybe in a storm, but wouldn't the concern be running the engine without intake water or running out of fuel if you run it too long? I'm mean that's why it's a sailboat... to sail. There are two times when you need power on a sailboat: Bad weather and good weather. Most cruising sailboats spend more than 90% of their time underway with the engine running. Either the wind is from the wrong direction, too weak or too strong. Not counting the fact of needing the engine to supply electrical power to modern refrigeration (if used) *and navionics. (Is that a word?) I don't think this requires a powerful engine... seems like it shouldn't. Don't people use generators that are separate from the main engine? -- Nom=de=Plume- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Some and probably most do, however like Wayne B has his trawler outfitted, he uses a high amperage alternator which is powered by his main engine[s] cabled to a considerable stack of batteries that in turn power an inverter that converts 12 volt DC current into 120 volt AC to power his electronics and refrigeration. He says it more cost effective than running a generator. |
Cruising and reality
"Tim" wrote in message
... On Apr 20, 12:46 pm, "nom=de=plume" wrote: "Tim" wrote in message ... On Apr 20, 2:31 am, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:46:58 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: Seems like unless you're close to shore, you really don't need a lot of engine power. Maybe in a storm, but wouldn't the concern be running the engine without intake water or running out of fuel if you run it too long? I'm mean that's why it's a sailboat... to sail. There are two times when you need power on a sailboat: Bad weather and good weather. Most cruising sailboats spend more than 90% of their time underway with the engine running. Either the wind is from the wrong direction, too weak or too strong. Not counting the fact of needing the engine to supply electrical power to modern refrigeration (if used) and navionics. (Is that a word?) I don't think this requires a powerful engine... seems like it shouldn't. Don't people use generators that are separate from the main engine? -- Nom=de=Plume- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Some and probably most do, however like Wayne B has his trawler outfitted, he uses a high amperage alternator which is powered by his main engine[s] cabled to a considerable stack of batteries that in turn power an inverter that converts 12 volt DC current into 120 volt AC to power his electronics and refrigeration. He says it more cost effective than running a generator. Interesting. I've heard about high voltage electric engines for sailboats, but I have a feeling that might be wildly expensive as a retrofit. -- Nom=de=Plume |
Cruising and reality
wrote in message
... On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:45:18 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: If it's really that bad, wouldn't you want to try and slow the boat? I saw parachutes for this at the boat show. -- I imagine you saw a sea anchor. That is like a parachute but it goes in the water and keeps your bow pointing into the wind when you are drifting. If you have "too much wind" I believe the trick is to take down all but the minimum amount of canvas to point the boat but I am a stink pot guy. I only know what I read. I think so... it was call paratech or something like that. Then, there was a drogue that hangs off the back. So, I guess you can either point into the wind or slow down going down wind. -- Nom=de=Plume |
Cruising and reality
On Apr 20, 1:23*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:45:18 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: If it's really that bad, wouldn't you want to try and slow the boat? I saw parachutes for this at the boat show. -- I imagine you saw a sea anchor. That is like a parachute but it goes in the water and keeps your bow pointing into the wind when you are drifting. If you have "too much wind" I believe the trick is to take down all but the minimum amount of canvas to point the boat but I am a stink pot guy. I only know what I read. Interesting that you would mention a sea anchor Greg. The first I'd heard of one was on "Master Commander: The far side of the world" Where in a hard gale the british were chasing the french and were pushing for more speed. A kid was up on top of a mast and it broke and went into the drink. The mast and sail were draging the ship and in an awkward side position with the waves, and a mate told the captain that the broken mast was acting like a 'sea anchor' dragging the ship into a list,and was jeprodising the safety of the ship and crew. They had no other recourse than to cut the lines to the broken mast and leave the poor lad to his untimely demise. Sad, but that was the way it went. |
Cruising and reality
On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:45:18 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote: Most cruising sailboats spend more than 90% of their time underway with the engine running. Either the wind is from the wrong direction, too weak or too strong. I thought most sailboats spend more than 90% of their time sitting in a berth or anchored. :) Why would you need to run the engine offshore when there's lots of wind? Seems like it wouldn't help that much. I can understand needing to get away from a shoreline, but in the middle of an ocean? If it's really that bad, wouldn't you want to try and slow the boat? I saw parachutes for this at the boat show. The average boat does spend well over 90% of its time at the dock but I'm talking about percentage of the time *underway*, i.e., not at the dock or anchored. When trying to get from point A to point B (as opposed to day sailing), the wind is frequently from an unfavoravle direction, too weak, or too strong for the boat/crew to handle. As a result the engine gets used a *lot* more than you might think. It is also important to understand that the *average* cruising sailboat does not cross oceans or run offshore for large distance. Probably less than 1% do that kind of sailing although we see a lot of them down here in the Caribbean. Many, but not all, of the ocean crossers look like they've been through a war. On a different topic, most cruising sailboats do not have a standalone generator until well up into the mid 40 ft range. Instead they use the main engine/alternator to charge batteries, etc. This in turn causes a lot of extra wear and tear, sometimes leading to premature engine failure. The stories about engine problems on sailboats go on and on, and in my experience most are true. They are frequently located in difficult, cramped areas which leads to a lot of deferred maintenance. This is compounded by the mindset of many, but not all, sailboat owners to leave well enough alone as long as the engine still runs (benign neglect). It is rare to find a used sailboat where the engine and associated drive train are still in top condition. |
Cruising and reality
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:45:18 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: Most cruising sailboats spend more than 90% of their time underway with the engine running. Either the wind is from the wrong direction, too weak or too strong. I thought most sailboats spend more than 90% of their time sitting in a berth or anchored. :) Why would you need to run the engine offshore when there's lots of wind? Seems like it wouldn't help that much. I can understand needing to get away from a shoreline, but in the middle of an ocean? If it's really that bad, wouldn't you want to try and slow the boat? I saw parachutes for this at the boat show. The average boat does spend well over 90% of its time at the dock but I'm talking about percentage of the time *underway*, i.e., not at the dock or anchored. When trying to get from point A to point B (as opposed to day sailing), the wind is frequently from an unfavoravle direction, too weak, or too strong for the boat/crew to handle. As a result the engine gets used a *lot* more than you might think. Ok, but that didn't really answer my question... I imagine it does get used quite a bit, but it doesn't seem logical to try and make progress against high winds when sails are available. I suppose if they were damaged, then sure. It is also important to understand that the *average* cruising sailboat does not cross oceans or run offshore for large distance. Probably less than 1% do that kind of sailing although we see a lot of them down here in the Caribbean. Many, but not all, of the ocean crossers look like they've been through a war. Right... I get that. I'm thinking most of our time away would be cruising in the Sea of Cortez and perhaps down further in Mex. On a different topic, most cruising sailboats do not have a standalone generator until well up into the mid 40 ft range. Instead they use the main engine/alternator to charge batteries, etc. This in turn causes a lot of extra wear and tear, sometimes leading to premature engine failure. The stories about engine problems on sailboats go on and on, and in my experience most are true. They are frequently located in difficult, cramped areas which leads to a lot of deferred maintenance. This is compounded by the mindset of many, but not all, sailboat owners to leave well enough alone as long as the engine still runs (benign neglect). It is rare to find a used sailboat where the engine and associated drive train are still in top condition. We were looking at something similar to this boat: http://tinyurl.com/yyoc997 It has a "genset" which I think is like a distinct generator. It's a 42'. I think maintenance is certainly important. I take my car in regularly. Of course, if you're away from civilization for a long period, you'd have to check it yourself and be thorough. I suppose some things are not really fixable without a boat shop, but that's true for cars too. Why would charging a battery cause engine problems? We were talking to a diesel mechanic a few weeks ago (interviewing him in case we found a boat and wanted his opinion about an engine), and he said that diesels like to be run hard, so I could see if you're just charging batteries without really "using" the engine to move the boat that wouldn't be running it hard. But, why couldn't you just put the thing in gear and push the boat while you charge the batteries? That would seem to solve the problem. -- Nom=de=Plume |
Cruising and reality
nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message ... On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:46:58 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: Seems like unless you're close to shore, you really don't need a lot of engine power. Maybe in a storm, but wouldn't the concern be running the engine without intake water or running out of fuel if you run it too long? I'm mean that's why it's a sailboat... to sail. There are two times when you need power on a sailboat: Bad weather and good weather. Most cruising sailboats spend more than 90% of their time underway with the engine running. Either the wind is from the wrong direction, too weak or too strong. I thought most sailboats spend more than 90% of their time sitting in a berth or anchored. :) Why would you need to run the engine offshore when there's lots of wind? Seems like it wouldn't help that much. I can understand needing to get away from a shoreline, but in the middle of an ocean? If it's really that bad, wouldn't you want to try and slow the boat? I saw parachutes for this at the boat show. Did you see sea anchors? |
Cruising and reality
On Apr 20, 5:18*pm, Larry wrote:
nom=de=plume wrote: *wrote in message .. . On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:46:58 -0700, "nom=de=plume" *wrote: Seems like unless you're close to shore, you really don't need a lot of engine power. Maybe in a storm, but wouldn't the concern be running the engine without intake water or running out of fuel if you run it too long? I'm mean that's why it's a sailboat... to sail. There are two times when you need power on a sailboat: Bad weather and good weather. Most cruising sailboats spend more than 90% of their time underway with the engine running. *Either the wind is from the wrong direction, too weak or too strong. I thought most sailboats spend more than 90% of their time sitting in a berth or anchored. :) Why would you need to run the engine offshore when there's lots of wind? Seems like it wouldn't help that much. I can understand needing to get away from a shoreline, but in the middle of an ocean? If it's really that bad, wouldn't you want to try and slow the boat? I saw parachutes for this at the boat show. Did you see sea anchors? Diesels do like to be run hard. A big problem with sailboat diesels is they often do not get hot enough to get carbon out. They need to be run at high rpm for a few hours a month. Fortunately, the engine on my 28' boat is easy to access and I have actually crawled in the compartment with the engine (being a caver, small spaces do not bother me). One change I made that I really like was to put an electric fuel pump in line with the mechanical fuel pump. This makes "bleeding" the engine very easy. Sooner or later, someone will have to do this while cruising (after you run out of fuel once) and it sure helps to have that electric pump. I have taken my sails completely down in a thunderstorm and run under bare poles with the engine running in reverse to make her go very slow. Sometimes, close to a lee shore in strong wind, the safest thing to do is to take the sails down and use the engine to get further out. |
Cruising and reality
On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:47:38 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote: We were looking at something similar to this boat: http://tinyurl.com/yyoc997 It has a "genset" which I think is like a distinct generator. It's a 42'. The Valiant 42 has a good reputation for sea worthiness and quality construction. It does have a 5 kw Westerbeke generator, somewhat unusual for a 42 footer but very desirable for serious cruising. It adds significant weight of course and takes up valuable space but certainly a good trade off for a boat that will be anchored out in remote locations. For someone who mostly cruises marina to marina, a genset is less useful. The used boat market is extremely soft these days and all asking prices should be regarded as *very* negotiable. I think maintenance is certainly important. I take my car in regularly. Of course, if you're away from civilization for a long period, you'd have to check it yourself and be thorough. I suppose some things are not really fixable without a boat shop, but that's true for cars too. It is much more difficult and expensive to get routine maintenance done on a boat. The best mechanics are usually booked up and the 2nd stringers can be dangerously unreliable. If you find a good one, treat them well and *never* quibble price. Why would charging a battery cause engine problems? We were talking to a diesel mechanic a few weeks ago (interviewing him in case we found a boat and wanted his opinion about an engine), and he said that diesels like to be run hard, so I could see if you're just charging batteries without really "using" the engine to move the boat that wouldn't be running it hard. But, why couldn't you just put the thing in gear and push the boat while you charge the batteries? That would seem to solve the problem. The mechanic you talked to is right. Running a diesel just to charge batteries is not enough load to bring the engine up to proper internal operating temperatures. The eventual result is carbon deposits, stuck piston rings and/or turbo bearings, and premature engine failure. This is obviously not a problem when underway but a big issue when anchored out. Even gensets are susceptible to this kind of damage if lightly loaded for extended periods of time. We frequently turn on the heat or air conditioning when running the generator just to keep it at the proper load level. That burns extra fuel but is much cheaper than an engine rebuild. |
Cruising and reality
On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 17:40:09 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote: Sometimes, close to a lee shore in strong wind, the safest thing to do is to take the sails down and use the engine to get further out. I prefer to leave up a deeply reefed mainsail to maintain directional control and assist with keeping the bow into the wind. Without that the wind will pick up the bow on every wavetop and push it back to leeward. |
Cruising and reality
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:47:38 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: We were looking at something similar to this boat: http://tinyurl.com/yyoc997 It has a "genset" which I think is like a distinct generator. It's a 42'. The Valiant 42 has a good reputation for sea worthiness and quality construction. It does have a 5 kw Westerbeke generator, somewhat unusual for a 42 footer but very desirable for serious cruising. It adds significant weight of course and takes up valuable space but certainly a good trade off for a boat that will be anchored out in remote locations. For someone who mostly cruises marina to marina, a genset is less useful. I don' t know if all Valiant 42s have it... I just stumbled on this one when you mentioned it. We're really looking for something on the west coast, but I guess we'd consider somewhere else. It just presents different, perhaps insurmountable problems. The used boat market is extremely soft these days and all asking prices should be regarded as *very* negotiable. That's for sure. We just mentioned to a Beneteau dealer that we were in the market and he practically followed us home. :) I think maintenance is certainly important. I take my car in regularly. Of course, if you're away from civilization for a long period, you'd have to check it yourself and be thorough. I suppose some things are not really fixable without a boat shop, but that's true for cars too. It is much more difficult and expensive to get routine maintenance done on a boat. The best mechanics are usually booked up and the 2nd stringers can be dangerously unreliable. If you find a good one, treat them well and *never* quibble price. Definitely. I bring my car mechanic food when I take it in for service. :) Why would charging a battery cause engine problems? We were talking to a diesel mechanic a few weeks ago (interviewing him in case we found a boat and wanted his opinion about an engine), and he said that diesels like to be run hard, so I could see if you're just charging batteries without really "using" the engine to move the boat that wouldn't be running it hard. But, why couldn't you just put the thing in gear and push the boat while you charge the batteries? That would seem to solve the problem. The mechanic you talked to is right. Running a diesel just to charge batteries is not enough load to bring the engine up to proper internal operating temperatures. The eventual result is carbon deposits, stuck piston rings and/or turbo bearings, and premature engine failure. This is obviously not a problem when underway but a big issue when anchored out. Even gensets are susceptible to this kind of damage if lightly loaded for extended periods of time. We frequently turn on the heat or air conditioning when running the generator just to keep it at the proper load level. That burns extra fuel but is much cheaper than an engine rebuild. Well, that's good... headed in the right direction, and we got his card. -- Nom=de=Plume |
Cruising and reality
"Larry" wrote in message
... nom=de=plume wrote: wrote in message ... On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:46:58 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: Seems like unless you're close to shore, you really don't need a lot of engine power. Maybe in a storm, but wouldn't the concern be running the engine without intake water or running out of fuel if you run it too long? I'm mean that's why it's a sailboat... to sail. There are two times when you need power on a sailboat: Bad weather and good weather. Most cruising sailboats spend more than 90% of their time underway with the engine running. Either the wind is from the wrong direction, too weak or too strong. I thought most sailboats spend more than 90% of their time sitting in a berth or anchored. :) Why would you need to run the engine offshore when there's lots of wind? Seems like it wouldn't help that much. I can understand needing to get away from a shoreline, but in the middle of an ocean? If it's really that bad, wouldn't you want to try and slow the boat? I saw parachutes for this at the boat show. Did you see sea anchors? Didn't see them, but certainly heard about them. -- Nom=de=Plume |
Cruising and reality
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 17:40:09 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Sometimes, close to a lee shore in strong wind, the safest thing to do is to take the sails down and use the engine to get further out. I prefer to leave up a deeply reefed mainsail to maintain directional control and assist with keeping the bow into the wind. Without that the wind will pick up the bow on every wavetop and push it back to leeward. I'm hoping that this stuff is going to be covered when I take the lessons. -- Nom=de=Plume |
Cruising and reality
On Apr 21, 12:58*am, wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:57:53 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:45:18 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: Most cruising sailboats spend more than 90% of their time underway with the engine running. *Either the wind is from the wrong direction, too weak or too strong. I thought most sailboats spend more than 90% of their time sitting in a berth or anchored. :) Why would you need to run the engine offshore when there's lots of wind? Seems like it wouldn't help that much. I can understand needing to get away from a shoreline, but in the middle of an ocean? If it's really that bad, wouldn't you want to try and slow the boat? I saw parachutes for this at the boat show. The average boat does spend well over 90% of its time at the dock but I'm talking about percentage of the time *underway*, i.e., not at the dock or anchored. *When trying to get from point A to point B (as opposed to day sailing), the wind is frequently from an unfavoravle direction, too weak, or too strong for the boat/crew to handle. *As a result the engine gets used a *lot* more than you might think. It is also important to understand that the *average* cruising sailboat does not cross oceans or run offshore for large distance. Probably less than 1% do that kind of sailing although we see a lot of them down here in the Caribbean. *Many, but not all, of the ocean crossers look like they've been through a war. On a different topic, most cruising sailboats do not have a standalone generator until well up into the mid 40 ft range. * Instead they use the main engine/alternator to charge batteries, etc. *This in turn causes a lot of extra wear and tear, sometimes leading to premature engine failure. *The stories about engine problems on sailboats go on and on, and in my experience most are true. * They are frequently located in difficult, cramped areas which leads to a lot of deferred maintenance. * This is compounded by the mindset of many, but not all, sailboat owners to leave well enough alone as long as the engine still runs (benign neglect). *It is rare to find a used sailboat where the engine and associated drive train are still in top condition. I knew some guys in the 70s who were pure sail and went to the Yucatan fairly regularly from Ft Lauderdale. They came back heavier than they went... if you get my drift *;-)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I imagine they were 'deeply reefed' too! |
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