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-   -   Bye, bye Loran (https://www.boatbanter.com/general/114879-bye-bye-loran.html)

Canuck57[_9_] April 4th 10 08:58 PM

Bye, bye Loran
 
On 04/04/2010 11:03 AM, A.Boater wrote:
The only thing challenged is YOUR intelligence.

Bush underfunded the USCG for his entire tenure in office. THEY are the ones
cutting Loran, along with the blessing of DHS, a turd created by your
savior, Dubya. It was during Bush's term (2005-2006) the White House fought
to close Loran-C in favor of eLoran. You finally got what your boys wanted,
so quit whining and quit blaming it on Obama.... it was a Repub Dream.


Think of all the money Obama is saving? (sarcasim).

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.

hk April 4th 10 08:59 PM

Bye, bye Loran
 
On 4/4/10 3:57 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/04/2010 11:05 AM, hk wrote:
On 4/4/10 12:56 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/04/2010 10:43 AM, hk wrote:
On 4/4/10 12:35 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/04/2010 10:22 AM, hk wrote:
On 4/4/10 12:17 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/04/2010 7:58 AM, hk wrote:

Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five
years,
Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as
"the
father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS
paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran
as a
backup.

Somehow Obama is being a real jerk in insulting our intelligence.
Even
if we are gullable to believe it costs $190 million over 5 years to
keep, lets do some math.


You don't even have a boat...

Have a hand held GPS, and rent boats when appropriate. Sort of silly
for
me to own one at the moment being I live in a land locked area. Easier
to drive the 1600 km to my favorite fishing hole and rent one for a
week
or two.


Right. Of course. Just like Skipper, you drive nearly 1000 miles to go
fishing. And you track your route on your hand-held GPS.

You are pathetic. hk and his SS Minnow.


Please...you *drive* a thousand miles to go fishing? Bull****.


Yep. Bad day fishing on a boat is better than a good day a work.



But you don't work.





--
http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym

Don White April 4th 10 09:16 PM

Bye, bye Loran
 

"hk" wrote in message
m...
On 4/4/10 12:17 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/04/2010 7:58 AM, hk wrote:

Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years,
Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as "the
father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS
paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a
backup.


Somehow Obama is being a real jerk in insulting our intelligence. Even
if we are gullable to believe it costs $190 million over 5 years to
keep, lets do some math.


You don't even have a boat...


...and if he did, I doubt he'd need Loran to navigate the Bow River.



I am Tosk April 4th 10 09:16 PM

Bye, bye Loran
 
In article ,
says...

On 04/04/2010 11:05 AM, hk wrote:
On 4/4/10 12:56 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/04/2010 10:43 AM, hk wrote:
On 4/4/10 12:35 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/04/2010 10:22 AM, hk wrote:
On 4/4/10 12:17 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/04/2010 7:58 AM, hk wrote:

Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five
years,
Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as
"the
father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS
paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a
backup.

Somehow Obama is being a real jerk in insulting our intelligence.
Even
if we are gullable to believe it costs $190 million over 5 years to
keep, lets do some math.


You don't even have a boat...

Have a hand held GPS, and rent boats when appropriate. Sort of silly
for
me to own one at the moment being I live in a land locked area. Easier
to drive the 1600 km to my favorite fishing hole and rent one for a
week
or two.


Right. Of course. Just like Skipper, you drive nearly 1000 miles to go
fishing. And you track your route on your hand-held GPS.

You are pathetic. hk and his SS Minnow.


Please...you *drive* a thousand miles to go fishing? Bull****.


Yep. Bad day fishing on a boat is better than a good day a work.

I would kill before I let my fishing rods go.


That's funny, Harry calling someone a bull****ter? LOL, funny...

Scotty

--
For a great time, go here first...
http://tinyurl.com/ygqxs5v

hk April 4th 10 09:24 PM

Bye, bye Loran
 
On 4/4/10 4:16 PM, I am Tosk wrote:
In ,
says...

On 04/04/2010 11:05 AM, hk wrote:
On 4/4/10 12:56 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/04/2010 10:43 AM, hk wrote:
On 4/4/10 12:35 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/04/2010 10:22 AM, hk wrote:
On 4/4/10 12:17 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/04/2010 7:58 AM, hk wrote:

Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five
years,
Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as
"the
father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS
paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a
backup.

Somehow Obama is being a real jerk in insulting our intelligence.
Even
if we are gullable to believe it costs $190 million over 5 years to
keep, lets do some math.


You don't even have a boat...

Have a hand held GPS, and rent boats when appropriate. Sort of silly
for
me to own one at the moment being I live in a land locked area. Easier
to drive the 1600 km to my favorite fishing hole and rent one for a
week
or two.


Right. Of course. Just like Skipper, you drive nearly 1000 miles to go
fishing. And you track your route on your hand-held GPS.

You are pathetic. hk and his SS Minnow.


Please...you *drive* a thousand miles to go fishing? Bull****.


Yep. Bad day fishing on a boat is better than a good day a work.

I would kill before I let my fishing rods go.


That's funny, Harry calling someone a bull****ter? LOL, funny...

Scotty


I'm certainly not in your league...mr. unemployable.


--
http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym

Canuck57[_9_] April 4th 10 11:19 PM

Bye, bye Loran
 
On 04/04/2010 1:59 PM, hk wrote:
On 4/4/10 3:57 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/04/2010 11:05 AM, hk wrote:
On 4/4/10 12:56 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/04/2010 10:43 AM, hk wrote:
On 4/4/10 12:35 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/04/2010 10:22 AM, hk wrote:
On 4/4/10 12:17 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/04/2010 7:58 AM, hk wrote:

Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five
years,
Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as
"the
father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS
paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran
as a
backup.

Somehow Obama is being a real jerk in insulting our intelligence.
Even
if we are gullable to believe it costs $190 million over 5 years to
keep, lets do some math.


You don't even have a boat...

Have a hand held GPS, and rent boats when appropriate. Sort of silly
for
me to own one at the moment being I live in a land locked area.
Easier
to drive the 1600 km to my favorite fishing hole and rent one for a
week
or two.


Right. Of course. Just like Skipper, you drive nearly 1000 miles to go
fishing. And you track your route on your hand-held GPS.

You are pathetic. hk and his SS Minnow.


Please...you *drive* a thousand miles to go fishing? Bull****.


Yep. Bad day fishing on a boat is better than a good day a work.



But you don't work.


Not for much longer... Working on finalizing retirement plans in the
next year or two.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.

Eisboch April 5th 10 12:28 AM

Bye, bye Loran
 

"hk" wrote in message
m...

World War II-era navigation system shut down
By Mike M. Ahlers, CNN


During the Bush administration, the system was at one point placed on the
chopping block, but was resurrected amid a flurry of reports from Loran
backers.

In late 2006, an Independent Assessment Team headed by Bradford Parkinson,
known as the "father of GPS," unanimously recommended that an enhanced
version of Loran, known as eLORAN, "be completed and retained as the
national backup system for GPS," saying it had "critical safety of life,
national and economic security, and quality of life applications."



But the Obama administration has described Loran as unnecessary and
antiquated. In a May 7 speech, Obama used Loran as an example of
government waste.




When Bush looked into shutting Loran down, there was quite a bit of
discussion regarding the proposal. I recall surveys were conducted,
including one by the Coast Guard, to get public opinion and input. A panel
of experts rendered their opinion. The input resulted in a decision to
continue funding Loran.

Now, President Obama simply decides to shut it down. No discussion that I
know of. Decision was made pretty much unilaterally it appears because *he*
doesn't think it's necessary and a waste of money.

Interesting.

Eisboch




Eisboch April 5th 10 12:40 AM

Bye, bye Loran
 

"hk" wrote in message
m...


The U.S. is not the only country with GPS satellites... :)


True. The Russians have the GLONASS system. That's about it.

There is a European system called Galileo in development and a Chinese
system also in development, but right now the only operational systems are
by the USA and Russia and they are not compatible.

Eisboch



hk April 5th 10 12:49 AM

Bye, bye Loran
 
On 4/4/10 7:40 PM, Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message
m...


The U.S. is not the only country with GPS satellites... :)


True. The Russians have the GLONASS system. That's about it.

There is a European system called Galileo in development and a Chinese
system also in development, but right now the only operational systems are
by the USA and Russia and they are not compatible.

Eisboch




This from the NY Times:

April 4, 2007
Russia Challenges the U.S. Monopoly on Satellite Navigation
By ANDREW E. KRAMER

MOSCOW, April 3 — The days of their cold war may have passed, but Russia
and the United States are in the midst of another battle — this one a
technological fight over the United States monopoly on satellite navigation.

By the end of the year, the authorities here say, the Russian space
agency plans to launch eight navigation satellites that would nearly
complete the country’s own system, called Glonass, for Global Navigation
Satellite System.

The system is expected to begin operating over Russian territory and
parts of adjacent Europe and Asia, and then go global in 2009 to compete
with the Global Positioning System of the United States.

Nor is Russia the only country trying to break the American monopoly on
navigation technology. China has already sent up satellites to create
its own system, called Baidu after the Chinese word for the Big Dipper.
And the European Union has also begun developing a rival system,
Galileo, although work has been halted because of doubts among the
private contractors over its potential for profits. Russia’s system is
furthest along, paid for with government oil revenue.

What is driving the technological battle is, in part, the potential for
many more uses for satellite navigation than the one most people know it
for — giving driving instructions to travelers. Businesses as disparate
as agriculture and banking are integrating it into their operations.
Satellite navigation may provide the platform for services like
site-specific advertising, with directions that appear on cellphone
screens when a user is walking, for example, near a Starbucks coffee
shop or a McDonald’s restaurant.

Sales of G.P.S. devices are already booming. The global market for the
devices hit $15 billion in 2006, according to the GPS Industry Council,
a Washington trade group, and is expanding at a rate of 25 to 30 percent
annually.

But what is also behind the battle for control of navigation technology
is a fear that the United States could use its monopoly — the system was
developed and is controlled by the military, after all — to switch off
signals in a time of crisis.

“In a few years, business without a navigation signal will become
inconceivable,” said Andrei G. Ionin, an aerospace analyst with the
Center for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, which is linked
to the Russian defense ministry. “Everything that moves will use a
navigation signal — airplanes, trains, yachts, people, rockets, valuable
animals and favorite pets.”

When that happens, countries that choose to rely only on G.P.S., he
said, will be falling into “a geopolitical trap” of American dominance
of an important Internet-age infrastructure. The United States could
theoretically deny navigation signals to countries like Iran and North
Korea, not just in time of war, but as a high-tech form of economic
sanction that could disrupt power grids, banking systems and other
industries, he said. The United States government’s stated policy is to
provide uninterrupted signals globally.

G.P.S. devices, in fact, are at the center of the dispute over the
Iranian seizure of 15 British sailors and marines. The British maintain
that the devices on their boats showed they were in Iraqi waters; the
Iranians have countered with map coordinates that it said showed they
had been in Iranian waters.

Russia’s project, of course, carries wide implications for armies around
the world by providing a navigation system not controlled by the
Pentagon, complementing Moscow’s increasingly assertive foreign policy
stance.

The United States formally opened G.P.S. to civilian users in 1993 by
promising to provide it continually, at no cost, around the world.

The Russian system is also calculated to send ripples through the
fast-expanding industry for consumer navigation devices by promising a
slight technical advantage over G.P.S. alone, analysts and industry
executives say. Devices receiving signals from both systems would
presumably be more reliable.

President Vladimir V. Putin, who speaks often about Glonass and its
possibilities, has prodded his scientists to make the product consumer
friendly.

“The network must be impeccable, better than G.P.S., and cheaper if we
want clients to choose Glonass,” Mr. Putin said last month at a Russian
government meeting on the system, according to the Interfax news agency.

“You know how much I care about Glonass,” Mr. Putin told his ministers.

G.P.S. has its roots in the American military in the 1960s. In 1983,
before the system was fully functional, President Ronald Reagan
suggested making it available to civilian users around the world after a
Korean Air flight strayed into Soviet airspace and was shot down.

G.P.S. got its first military test in the Persian Gulf war in 1991, and
was seen as a big reason for the success of the precision bombing
campaign, which helped spur its adoption in commercial applications in
the 1990s.

The Russian system, like America’s G.P.S., has roots in the cold war
technology to guide strategic bombers and missiles. It was briefly
operational in the mid-1990s, but fell into disrepair. The Russian
satellites send signals that are usable now but work only intermittently.

To operate globally, a system needs a minimum of 24 satellites, the
number in the G.P.S. constellation, not counting spares in orbit.

A receiver must be in line of sight of no fewer than three satellites at
any time to triangulate an accurate position. A fourth satellite is
needed to calculate altitude. As other countries introduce competing
systems, devices capable of receiving foreign signals along with G.P.S.
will more often be in line of sight of three or more satellites.

Within the United States, Western Europe and Japan, ground-based
transmissions hone the accuracy of signals to within a few feet of a
location — better than what could be achieved with satellite signals
alone. The Russian and eventual European or Chinese systems, therefore,
would make receivers more reliable in preventing signal loss when there
are obstructions, like steep canyons, tall buildings or even trees.

Still, a Glonass-capable G.P.S. receiver in the United States, Western
Europe or Japan would not be more accurate than a G.P.S. system alone,
because of the ground-based correction signals. In other parts of the
world, a Glonass-capable G.P.S. receiver would be more reliable and
slightly more accurate.

American manufacturers that are dominant in the industry could be
confronted with pressure to offer these advantages to customers by
making devices compatible with the Russian system, inevitably
undermining the American monopoly on navigation signals used in commerce.

In this sense, the Russians are setting off the first salvo in a battle
for an infrastructure in the skies. Russia sees a great deal at stake in
influencing the standards that will be used in civilian consumer devices.

The market for satellite navigators is growing rapidly. Garmin, the
largest American manufacturer, more than doubled sales of automobile
navigators in 2006, for example, and in February it showed a Super Bowl
ad that was seen as a coming of age for G.P.S. navigators as a mass
market product.

Jeremy D. Ludwig was one consumer who said he would be willing to pay a
slight premium for a device equipped with a chip capable of processing
Russian navigation signals.

He recounted a recent trip on Interstate 25 in Colorado, when, he said,
he was dismayed to discover the G.P.S. device on his BlackBerry had
inexplicably lost its signal, just as he was trying to decide which exit
to take into Denver.

“If you don’t know which exit to take, you’re already lost,” Mr. Ludwig,
an art student, said in a recent telephone interview from Colorado Springs.

That kind of attitude is what Russia is banking on even as it also takes
a stab at making consumer receivers — so far without much success. But
the Russian goal of diversifying navigation signals used in commerce
will be achieved, Mr. Ionin said, even if foreign manufacturers simply
adopt the Russian standard, and even if Russia’s own attempt to make
consumer devices fails.

To encourage wide acceptance, Mr. Putin has been pitching the system
during foreign visits, asking for collaboration and financial support.

Now, only makers of high-end surveying and professional navigation
receivers have adopted dual-system capability.

Topcon Positioning Systems of Livermore, Calif., for example, offers a
Glonass and G.P.S. receiver for surveyors and heavy-equipment operators.
Javad Navigation Systems is built around making dual-system receivers,
with offices in San Jose and Moscow.

Javad Ashjaee, the president of Javad, said in an interview that wide
adoption was inevitable because more satellites provided an inherently
better service. “If you have G.P.S., you have 90 percent of what you
need,” he said. Russia’s system will succeed, he said, “for that extra
10 percent.”

Adding Glonass to low-end consumer devices would require a new chip,
with associated design costs, but probably not much in the way of
additional manufacturing expenses, he said.

Already this year, in a sign of growing acceptance of Glonass, another
high-end manufacturer, Trimble, based in Sunnyvale, Calif., introduced a
Russian-compatible device for agricultural navigators, used for applying
pesticides, for example.

Whether consumer goods manufacturers will follow is an open question,
John R. Bucher, a wireless equipment analyst at BMO Capital Markets,
said in a telephone interview.

Garmin, which has more than 50 percent of the American market, has not
yet taken a position on Glonass. “We are waiting,” Jessica Myers, a
spokeswoman for Garmin, said in a telephone interview.

For most consumers, she said, devices are reliable enough already.
Growth in the industry is driven instead by better digital mapping and
software, making what already exists more useful. Garmin’s latest car
navigator, for example, alerts drivers to traffic jams on the road ahead
and the price of gas at nearby stations.

At home at least, the Kremlin is guaranteeing a market by requiring
ships, airplanes and trucks carrying hazardous materials to operate with
Glonass receivers, while providing grants to half a dozen Russian
manufacturers of navigators.

Technically precise they may be, but even by Russian standards, some of
the Russian-made products coming to market now are noticeably lacking in
convenience features.

At the Russian Institute of Radionavigation and Time in St. Petersburg,
for example, scientists have developed the M-103 dual system receiver.
The precision device theoretically operates more reliably than a G.P.S.
unit under tough conditions, like the urban canyons of Manhattan.

With its boxy appearance, the M-103 resembles a Korean War-era military
walkie-talkie. It weighs about one pound and sells for $1,000, display
screen not included. To operate, a user must unfurl a cable linking the
set to an external antenna mounted on a spiked stick, intended to be
jabbed into a field.

“Unfortunately, we haven’t developed a hand-held version yet,” said
Vadim S. Zholnerov, a deputy director of the institute.



I'm sure W'hine has at least one Russian GPS receiver on Xanadu, his boat.


--
http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym

Eisboch April 5th 10 01:11 AM

Bye, bye Loran
 

"hk" wrote in message
m...

On 4/4/10 7:40 PM, Eisboch wrote:


wrote in message
m...


The U.S. is not the only country with GPS satellites... :)


True. The Russians have the GLONASS system. That's about it.

There is a European system called Galileo in development and a Chinese
system also in development, but right now the only operational systems
are
by the USA and Russia and they are not compatible.

Eisboch




This from the NY Times:

April 4, 2007
Russia Challenges the U.S. Monopoly on Satellite Navigation
By ANDREW E. KRAMER



As an unqualified to judge layperson, I don't think Loran should be shut
down. The USA is becoming totally dependent on *one* system for commerce,
commercial shipping and military applications.
The potential damage or risk to any of them is a matter of national
security. To operate without a backup system is foolhardy.

Eisboch





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