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Bye, bye Loran
World War II-era navigation system shut down
By Mike M. Ahlers, CNN * U.S. shut down 19 of 24 land-based Loran-C navigation stations on Monday * Administration says Loran no longer needed in era of Global Positioning System * Critics warn GPS is vulnerable to cyber-attacks, suggest keeping Loran as backup Washington -- Good night, Loran. In a series of small ceremonies, the U.S. Coast Guard on Monday shut down Loran-C, a navigation and timing system that has guided mariners and aviators since World War II. The death blow came last May when President Obama called the system obsolete, saying it is no longer needed in an age in which Global Positioning System devices are nearly ubiquitous in cars, planes and boats. Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years, Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as "the father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a backup. Supporters also argue that the mere existence of Loran makes the GPS satellite system a less attractive target for cyber-thugs, terrorists or future military adversaries. GPS systems today are used not only for navigation, but also to provide precise timing for ATM machines, cell phone towers, water plants and other enterprises, and positioning information for precision-guided weapons for the military. GPS disruptions can be costly to business, dangerous for travelers, and debilitating to the military. Supporters of Loran -- short for long range navigation system -- say the system is a near-perfect backup because it provides similar information to GPS, but has dissimilar infrastructure. GPS is based on a constellation of at least 25 satellites; Loran is based on 24 ground stations in the United States, and others elsewhere. GPS transmits a very faint signal and is vulnerable to interference or jamming; Loran has a high-power signal which can penetrate obstacles like foliage and is harder to interrupt. GPS is powered by solar panels; Loran is tied to ground power. And while GPS operates in outer space, outside of controlled perimeters, Loran operates inside controlled perimeters in the United States. The vulnerability of GPS and the consequences of an outage became evident in 2007 during a Navy training exercise in the Port of San Diego, California. Participants unintentionally jammed GPS signals in the region, shutting down satellite navigation and cell phone service up to 10 miles inland for three hours. The satellite-based system's vulnerability became apparent a second time that year, when China tested an anti-satellite weapon, destroying one of its own aging weather satellites. Indeed, in recent years, as the popularity of GPS soared and the number of Loran users dwindled, the fate of the Loran system has followed a meandering path of near-death and rebirth experiences that even the most sophisticated navigation system would have difficulty tracking. During the Bush administration, the system was at one point placed on the chopping block, but was resurrected amid a flurry of reports from Loran backers. In late 2006, an Independent Assessment Team headed by Bradford Parkinson, known as the "father of GPS," unanimously recommended that an enhanced version of Loran, known as eLORAN, "be completed and retained as the national backup system for GPS," saying it had "critical safety of life, national and economic security, and quality of life applications." The assessment team recommended that the government complete the eLORAN upgrade and commit to eLORAN as the national backup to GPS for 20 years. But the Obama administration has described Loran as unnecessary and antiquated. In a May 7 speech, Obama used Loran as an example of government waste. "This system once made a lot of sense, before there were satellites to help us navigate," Obama said. "Now there's GPS. And yet, year after year, this obsolete technology has continued to be funded even though it serves no government function and very few people are left who still actually use it." So at 3 p.m. Monday, the U.S. Coast Guard turned off Loran signals at 19 of the 24 Loran stations. Signals remain at five stations because of agreements with Russia and Canada, but the Coast Guard expects those stations to be decommissioned by June after the United States receives verification that those countries have been notified of the change. The five stations that temporarily remain on line are at Attu, in Alaska's Aleutian Islands, and Caribou, Maine; Nantucket, Massachusetts; Shoal Cove, Alaska; and George, Washington. Chief Warrant Officer 4 Dave Robbio said the Loran signals at the 19 closed stations will be on a "hot stand-by" for the next week, allowing the signals to be turned back on if something unforeseen occurs. If there are no problems, the transmitters will be completely powered down next Monday. Some congressional critics say it is a mistake to shut down the system. In a November letter to Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, two top members of the Senate Homeland Security Committee urged that Loran-C be spared. Deploying an enhanced Loran, or eLORAN, would cost about $100 million, Sens. Joseph Lieberman, I-Connecticut, and Susan Collins, R-Maine, wrote -- about one half the amount of placing one new GPS satellite in orbit, they said. But the case for dismantling Loran also has its advocates, including the U.S. Coast Guard. In a submission to the Federal Register, the Coast Guard said Loran-C was not established as, nor was it it intended to be, a backup for GPS. Other radio navigation systems, or operational procedures, can be used as backups for GPS navigation and other critical applications, the Coast Guard said. The Department of Homeland Security says it is currently reviewing the nation's critical infrastructure "to determine if a single, domestic system is needed as a GPS backup." "The continued active operation of Loran-C is not necessary to advance this evaluation," DHS said. But hope springs eternal for some Loran supporters, who hope the Coast Guard will mothball the system rather than destroy it. Mothballing the stations would allow the government to resurrect the system if ongoing studies show Loran is the appropriate backup for GPS. But one Loran supporter acknowledged that hopes of reviving the system, at this point, may just be "wishful thinking." - - - I guess this got lost in the midst of the ID spoofing, Loogy's defecations, and SnottyScotty's mind-boggling stupidity. -- http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym |
Bye, bye Loran
On 04/04/2010 7:58 AM, hk wrote:
Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years, Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as "the father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a backup. Somehow Obama is being a real jerk in insulting our intelligence. Even if we are gullable to believe it costs $190 million over 5 years to keep, lets do some math. 38 million a year savings (questionable). Obama overspend, $1.7 trillion, 2010 only. Obama just saves 0.0022%. Big savers NOT. Obama needs to find and execute some 44736 such savings this year to balance the budget. Too bad Obama can't save like he spends. He is going to have to go for the fat political turkeys to get the budget balanced. Supporters also argue that the mere existence of Loran makes the GPS satellite system a less attractive target for cyber-thugs, terrorists or future military adversaries. Probably does. But no one ever accused Obama of thinking things through before his gums move. -- Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money. |
Bye, bye Loran
On Apr 4, 9:58*am, hk wrote:
World War II-era navigation system shut down By Mike M. Ahlers, CNN * * ** U.S. shut down 19 of 24 land-based Loran-C navigation stations on Monday * * ** Administration says Loran no longer needed in era of Global Positioning System * * ** Critics warn GPS is vulnerable to cyber-attacks, suggest keeping Loran as backup Washington -- Good night, Loran. In a series of small ceremonies, the U.S. Coast Guard on Monday shut down Loran-C, a navigation and timing system that has guided mariners and aviators since World War II. The death blow came last May when President Obama called the system obsolete, saying it is no longer needed in an age in which Global Positioning System devices are nearly ubiquitous in cars, planes and boats. Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years, Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as "the father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a backup. Supporters also argue that the mere existence of Loran makes the GPS satellite system a less attractive target for cyber-thugs, terrorists or future military adversaries. GPS systems today are used not only for navigation, but also to provide precise timing for ATM machines, cell phone towers, water plants and other enterprises, and positioning information for precision-guided weapons for the military. GPS disruptions can be costly to business, dangerous for travelers, and debilitating to the military. Supporters of Loran -- short for long range navigation system -- say the system is a near-perfect backup because it provides similar information to GPS, but has dissimilar infrastructure. GPS is based on a constellation of at least 25 satellites; Loran is based on 24 ground stations in the United States, and others elsewhere. GPS transmits a very faint signal and is vulnerable to interference or jamming; Loran has a high-power signal which can penetrate obstacles like foliage and is harder to interrupt. GPS is powered by solar panels; Loran is tied to ground power. And while GPS operates in outer space, outside of controlled perimeters, Loran operates inside controlled perimeters in the United States. The vulnerability of GPS and the consequences of an outage became evident in 2007 during a Navy training exercise in the Port of San Diego, California. Participants unintentionally jammed GPS signals in the region, shutting down satellite navigation and cell phone service up to 10 miles inland for three hours. The satellite-based system's vulnerability became apparent a second time that year, when China tested an anti-satellite weapon, destroying one of its own aging weather satellites. Indeed, in recent years, as the popularity of GPS soared and the number of Loran users dwindled, the fate of the Loran system has followed a meandering path of near-death and rebirth experiences that even the most sophisticated navigation system would have difficulty tracking. During the Bush administration, the system was at one point placed on the chopping block, but was resurrected amid a flurry of reports from Loran backers. In late 2006, an Independent Assessment Team headed by Bradford Parkinson, known as the "father of GPS," unanimously recommended that an enhanced version of Loran, known as eLORAN, "be completed and retained as the national backup system for GPS," saying it had "critical safety of life, national and economic security, and quality of life applications.." The assessment team recommended that the government complete the eLORAN upgrade and commit to eLORAN as the national backup to GPS for 20 years. But the Obama administration has described Loran as unnecessary and antiquated. In a May 7 speech, Obama used Loran as an example of government waste. "This system once made a lot of sense, before there were satellites to help us navigate," Obama said. "Now there's GPS. And yet, year after year, this obsolete technology has continued to be funded even though it serves no government function and very few people are left who still actually use it." So at 3 p.m. Monday, the U.S. Coast Guard turned off Loran signals at 19 of the 24 Loran stations. Signals remain at five stations because of agreements with Russia and Canada, but the Coast Guard expects those stations to be decommissioned by June after the United States receives verification that those countries have been notified of the change. The five stations that temporarily remain on line are at Attu, in Alaska's Aleutian Islands, and Caribou, Maine; Nantucket, Massachusetts; Shoal Cove, Alaska; and George, Washington. Chief Warrant Officer 4 Dave Robbio said the Loran signals at the 19 closed stations will be on a "hot stand-by" for the next week, allowing the signals to be turned back on if something unforeseen occurs. If there are no problems, the transmitters will be completely powered down next Monday. Some congressional critics say it is a mistake to shut down the system. In a November letter to Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, two top members of the Senate Homeland Security Committee urged that Loran-C be spared. Deploying an enhanced Loran, or eLORAN, would cost about $100 million, Sens. Joseph Lieberman, I-Connecticut, and Susan Collins, R-Maine, wrote -- about one half the amount of placing one new GPS satellite in orbit, they said. But the case for dismantling Loran also has its advocates, including the U.S. Coast Guard. In a submission to the Federal Register, the Coast Guard said Loran-C was not established as, nor was it it intended to be, a backup for GPS. Other radio navigation systems, or operational procedures, can be used as backups for GPS navigation and other critical applications, the Coast Guard said. The Department of Homeland Security says it is currently reviewing the nation's critical infrastructure "to determine if a single, domestic system is needed as a GPS backup." "The continued active operation of Loran-C is not necessary to advance this evaluation," DHS said. But hope springs eternal for some Loran supporters, who hope the Coast Guard will mothball the system rather than destroy it. Mothballing the stations would allow the government to resurrect the system if ongoing studies show Loran is the appropriate backup for GPS. But one Loran supporter acknowledged that hopes of reviving the system, at this point, may just be "wishful thinking." - - - I guess this got lost in the midst of the ID spoofing, Loogy's defecations, and SnottyScotty's mind-boggling stupidity. --http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym I understood they wanted to get rid of Loran so the Military could effectively shut down satellite navigation at their discression. Commercial Fishermen are upset because Loran is a system they've used for a long time....and like it. A sort of "control" tactic. |
Bye, bye Loran
On 4/4/10 12:17 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/04/2010 7:58 AM, hk wrote: Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years, Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as "the father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a backup. Somehow Obama is being a real jerk in insulting our intelligence. Even if we are gullable to believe it costs $190 million over 5 years to keep, lets do some math. You don't even have a boat... -- http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym |
Bye, bye Loran
On 4/4/10 12:19 PM, *e#c wrote:
On Apr 4, 9:58 am, wrote: World War II-era navigation system shut down By Mike M. Ahlers, CNN * U.S. shut down 19 of 24 land-based Loran-C navigation stations on Monday * Administration says Loran no longer needed in era of Global Positioning System * Critics warn GPS is vulnerable to cyber-attacks, suggest keeping Loran as backup Washington -- Good night, Loran. In a series of small ceremonies, the U.S. Coast Guard on Monday shut down Loran-C, a navigation and timing system that has guided mariners and aviators since World War II. The death blow came last May when President Obama called the system obsolete, saying it is no longer needed in an age in which Global Positioning System devices are nearly ubiquitous in cars, planes and boats. Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years, Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as "the father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a backup. Supporters also argue that the mere existence of Loran makes the GPS satellite system a less attractive target for cyber-thugs, terrorists or future military adversaries. GPS systems today are used not only for navigation, but also to provide precise timing for ATM machines, cell phone towers, water plants and other enterprises, and positioning information for precision-guided weapons for the military. GPS disruptions can be costly to business, dangerous for travelers, and debilitating to the military. Supporters of Loran -- short for long range navigation system -- say the system is a near-perfect backup because it provides similar information to GPS, but has dissimilar infrastructure. GPS is based on a constellation of at least 25 satellites; Loran is based on 24 ground stations in the United States, and others elsewhere. GPS transmits a very faint signal and is vulnerable to interference or jamming; Loran has a high-power signal which can penetrate obstacles like foliage and is harder to interrupt. GPS is powered by solar panels; Loran is tied to ground power. And while GPS operates in outer space, outside of controlled perimeters, Loran operates inside controlled perimeters in the United States. The vulnerability of GPS and the consequences of an outage became evident in 2007 during a Navy training exercise in the Port of San Diego, California. Participants unintentionally jammed GPS signals in the region, shutting down satellite navigation and cell phone service up to 10 miles inland for three hours. The satellite-based system's vulnerability became apparent a second time that year, when China tested an anti-satellite weapon, destroying one of its own aging weather satellites. Indeed, in recent years, as the popularity of GPS soared and the number of Loran users dwindled, the fate of the Loran system has followed a meandering path of near-death and rebirth experiences that even the most sophisticated navigation system would have difficulty tracking. During the Bush administration, the system was at one point placed on the chopping block, but was resurrected amid a flurry of reports from Loran backers. In late 2006, an Independent Assessment Team headed by Bradford Parkinson, known as the "father of GPS," unanimously recommended that an enhanced version of Loran, known as eLORAN, "be completed and retained as the national backup system for GPS," saying it had "critical safety of life, national and economic security, and quality of life applications." The assessment team recommended that the government complete the eLORAN upgrade and commit to eLORAN as the national backup to GPS for 20 years. But the Obama administration has described Loran as unnecessary and antiquated. In a May 7 speech, Obama used Loran as an example of government waste. "This system once made a lot of sense, before there were satellites to help us navigate," Obama said. "Now there's GPS. And yet, year after year, this obsolete technology has continued to be funded even though it serves no government function and very few people are left who still actually use it." So at 3 p.m. Monday, the U.S. Coast Guard turned off Loran signals at 19 of the 24 Loran stations. Signals remain at five stations because of agreements with Russia and Canada, but the Coast Guard expects those stations to be decommissioned by June after the United States receives verification that those countries have been notified of the change. The five stations that temporarily remain on line are at Attu, in Alaska's Aleutian Islands, and Caribou, Maine; Nantucket, Massachusetts; Shoal Cove, Alaska; and George, Washington. Chief Warrant Officer 4 Dave Robbio said the Loran signals at the 19 closed stations will be on a "hot stand-by" for the next week, allowing the signals to be turned back on if something unforeseen occurs. If there are no problems, the transmitters will be completely powered down next Monday. Some congressional critics say it is a mistake to shut down the system. In a November letter to Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, two top members of the Senate Homeland Security Committee urged that Loran-C be spared. Deploying an enhanced Loran, or eLORAN, would cost about $100 million, Sens. Joseph Lieberman, I-Connecticut, and Susan Collins, R-Maine, wrote -- about one half the amount of placing one new GPS satellite in orbit, they said. But the case for dismantling Loran also has its advocates, including the U.S. Coast Guard. In a submission to the Federal Register, the Coast Guard said Loran-C was not established as, nor was it it intended to be, a backup for GPS. Other radio navigation systems, or operational procedures, can be used as backups for GPS navigation and other critical applications, the Coast Guard said. The Department of Homeland Security says it is currently reviewing the nation's critical infrastructure "to determine if a single, domestic system is needed as a GPS backup." "The continued active operation of Loran-C is not necessary to advance this evaluation," DHS said. But hope springs eternal for some Loran supporters, who hope the Coast Guard will mothball the system rather than destroy it. Mothballing the stations would allow the government to resurrect the system if ongoing studies show Loran is the appropriate backup for GPS. But one Loran supporter acknowledged that hopes of reviving the system, at this point, may just be "wishful thinking." - - - I guess this got lost in the midst of the ID spoofing, Loogy's defecations, and SnottyScotty's mind-boggling stupidity. --http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym I understood they wanted to get rid of Loran so the Military could effectively shut down satellite navigation at their discression. Commercial Fishermen are upset because Loran is a system they've used for a long time....and like it. A sort of "control" tactic. The U.S. is not the only country with GPS satellites... :) -- http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym |
Bye, bye Loran
On 04/04/2010 10:22 AM, hk wrote:
On 4/4/10 12:17 PM, Canuck57 wrote: On 04/04/2010 7:58 AM, hk wrote: Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years, Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as "the father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a backup. Somehow Obama is being a real jerk in insulting our intelligence. Even if we are gullable to believe it costs $190 million over 5 years to keep, lets do some math. You don't even have a boat... Have a hand held GPS, and rent boats when appropriate. Sort of silly for me to own one at the moment being I live in a land locked area. Easier to drive the 1600 km to my favorite fishing hole and rent one for a week or two. -- Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money. |
Bye, bye Loran
On 4/4/10 12:35 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/04/2010 10:22 AM, hk wrote: On 4/4/10 12:17 PM, Canuck57 wrote: On 04/04/2010 7:58 AM, hk wrote: Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years, Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as "the father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a backup. Somehow Obama is being a real jerk in insulting our intelligence. Even if we are gullable to believe it costs $190 million over 5 years to keep, lets do some math. You don't even have a boat... Have a hand held GPS, and rent boats when appropriate. Sort of silly for me to own one at the moment being I live in a land locked area. Easier to drive the 1600 km to my favorite fishing hole and rent one for a week or two. Right. Of course. Just like Skipper, you drive nearly 1000 miles to go fishing. And you track your route on your hand-held GPS. -- http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym |
Bye, bye Loran
On 04/04/2010 10:43 AM, hk wrote:
On 4/4/10 12:35 PM, Canuck57 wrote: On 04/04/2010 10:22 AM, hk wrote: On 4/4/10 12:17 PM, Canuck57 wrote: On 04/04/2010 7:58 AM, hk wrote: Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years, Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as "the father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a backup. Somehow Obama is being a real jerk in insulting our intelligence. Even if we are gullable to believe it costs $190 million over 5 years to keep, lets do some math. You don't even have a boat... Have a hand held GPS, and rent boats when appropriate. Sort of silly for me to own one at the moment being I live in a land locked area. Easier to drive the 1600 km to my favorite fishing hole and rent one for a week or two. Right. Of course. Just like Skipper, you drive nearly 1000 miles to go fishing. And you track your route on your hand-held GPS. You are pathetic. hk and his SS Minnow. -- Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money. |
Bye, bye Loran
On 4/4/10 12:56 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/04/2010 10:43 AM, hk wrote: On 4/4/10 12:35 PM, Canuck57 wrote: On 04/04/2010 10:22 AM, hk wrote: On 4/4/10 12:17 PM, Canuck57 wrote: On 04/04/2010 7:58 AM, hk wrote: Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years, Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as "the father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a backup. Somehow Obama is being a real jerk in insulting our intelligence. Even if we are gullable to believe it costs $190 million over 5 years to keep, lets do some math. You don't even have a boat... Have a hand held GPS, and rent boats when appropriate. Sort of silly for me to own one at the moment being I live in a land locked area. Easier to drive the 1600 km to my favorite fishing hole and rent one for a week or two. Right. Of course. Just like Skipper, you drive nearly 1000 miles to go fishing. And you track your route on your hand-held GPS. You are pathetic. hk and his SS Minnow. Please...you *drive* a thousand miles to go fishing? Bull****. -- http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym |
Bye, bye Loran
On 04/04/2010 11:05 AM, hk wrote:
On 4/4/10 12:56 PM, Canuck57 wrote: On 04/04/2010 10:43 AM, hk wrote: On 4/4/10 12:35 PM, Canuck57 wrote: On 04/04/2010 10:22 AM, hk wrote: On 4/4/10 12:17 PM, Canuck57 wrote: On 04/04/2010 7:58 AM, hk wrote: Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years, Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as "the father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a backup. Somehow Obama is being a real jerk in insulting our intelligence. Even if we are gullable to believe it costs $190 million over 5 years to keep, lets do some math. You don't even have a boat... Have a hand held GPS, and rent boats when appropriate. Sort of silly for me to own one at the moment being I live in a land locked area. Easier to drive the 1600 km to my favorite fishing hole and rent one for a week or two. Right. Of course. Just like Skipper, you drive nearly 1000 miles to go fishing. And you track your route on your hand-held GPS. You are pathetic. hk and his SS Minnow. Please...you *drive* a thousand miles to go fishing? Bull****. Yep. Bad day fishing on a boat is better than a good day a work. I would kill before I let my fishing rods go. -- Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money. |
Bye, bye Loran
On 04/04/2010 11:03 AM, A.Boater wrote:
The only thing challenged is YOUR intelligence. Bush underfunded the USCG for his entire tenure in office. THEY are the ones cutting Loran, along with the blessing of DHS, a turd created by your savior, Dubya. It was during Bush's term (2005-2006) the White House fought to close Loran-C in favor of eLoran. You finally got what your boys wanted, so quit whining and quit blaming it on Obama.... it was a Repub Dream. Think of all the money Obama is saving? (sarcasim). -- Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money. |
Bye, bye Loran
On 4/4/10 3:57 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/04/2010 11:05 AM, hk wrote: On 4/4/10 12:56 PM, Canuck57 wrote: On 04/04/2010 10:43 AM, hk wrote: On 4/4/10 12:35 PM, Canuck57 wrote: On 04/04/2010 10:22 AM, hk wrote: On 4/4/10 12:17 PM, Canuck57 wrote: On 04/04/2010 7:58 AM, hk wrote: Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years, Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as "the father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a backup. Somehow Obama is being a real jerk in insulting our intelligence. Even if we are gullable to believe it costs $190 million over 5 years to keep, lets do some math. You don't even have a boat... Have a hand held GPS, and rent boats when appropriate. Sort of silly for me to own one at the moment being I live in a land locked area. Easier to drive the 1600 km to my favorite fishing hole and rent one for a week or two. Right. Of course. Just like Skipper, you drive nearly 1000 miles to go fishing. And you track your route on your hand-held GPS. You are pathetic. hk and his SS Minnow. Please...you *drive* a thousand miles to go fishing? Bull****. Yep. Bad day fishing on a boat is better than a good day a work. But you don't work. -- http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym |
Bye, bye Loran
"hk" wrote in message m... On 4/4/10 12:17 PM, Canuck57 wrote: On 04/04/2010 7:58 AM, hk wrote: Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years, Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as "the father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a backup. Somehow Obama is being a real jerk in insulting our intelligence. Even if we are gullable to believe it costs $190 million over 5 years to keep, lets do some math. You don't even have a boat... ...and if he did, I doubt he'd need Loran to navigate the Bow River. |
Bye, bye Loran
On 4/4/10 4:16 PM, I am Tosk wrote:
In , says... On 04/04/2010 11:05 AM, hk wrote: On 4/4/10 12:56 PM, Canuck57 wrote: On 04/04/2010 10:43 AM, hk wrote: On 4/4/10 12:35 PM, Canuck57 wrote: On 04/04/2010 10:22 AM, hk wrote: On 4/4/10 12:17 PM, Canuck57 wrote: On 04/04/2010 7:58 AM, hk wrote: Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years, Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as "the father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a backup. Somehow Obama is being a real jerk in insulting our intelligence. Even if we are gullable to believe it costs $190 million over 5 years to keep, lets do some math. You don't even have a boat... Have a hand held GPS, and rent boats when appropriate. Sort of silly for me to own one at the moment being I live in a land locked area. Easier to drive the 1600 km to my favorite fishing hole and rent one for a week or two. Right. Of course. Just like Skipper, you drive nearly 1000 miles to go fishing. And you track your route on your hand-held GPS. You are pathetic. hk and his SS Minnow. Please...you *drive* a thousand miles to go fishing? Bull****. Yep. Bad day fishing on a boat is better than a good day a work. I would kill before I let my fishing rods go. That's funny, Harry calling someone a bull****ter? LOL, funny... Scotty I'm certainly not in your league...mr. unemployable. -- http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym |
Bye, bye Loran
On 04/04/2010 1:59 PM, hk wrote:
On 4/4/10 3:57 PM, Canuck57 wrote: On 04/04/2010 11:05 AM, hk wrote: On 4/4/10 12:56 PM, Canuck57 wrote: On 04/04/2010 10:43 AM, hk wrote: On 4/4/10 12:35 PM, Canuck57 wrote: On 04/04/2010 10:22 AM, hk wrote: On 4/4/10 12:17 PM, Canuck57 wrote: On 04/04/2010 7:58 AM, hk wrote: Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years, Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as "the father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a backup. Somehow Obama is being a real jerk in insulting our intelligence. Even if we are gullable to believe it costs $190 million over 5 years to keep, lets do some math. You don't even have a boat... Have a hand held GPS, and rent boats when appropriate. Sort of silly for me to own one at the moment being I live in a land locked area. Easier to drive the 1600 km to my favorite fishing hole and rent one for a week or two. Right. Of course. Just like Skipper, you drive nearly 1000 miles to go fishing. And you track your route on your hand-held GPS. You are pathetic. hk and his SS Minnow. Please...you *drive* a thousand miles to go fishing? Bull****. Yep. Bad day fishing on a boat is better than a good day a work. But you don't work. Not for much longer... Working on finalizing retirement plans in the next year or two. -- Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money. |
Bye, bye Loran
"hk" wrote in message m... World War II-era navigation system shut down By Mike M. Ahlers, CNN During the Bush administration, the system was at one point placed on the chopping block, but was resurrected amid a flurry of reports from Loran backers. In late 2006, an Independent Assessment Team headed by Bradford Parkinson, known as the "father of GPS," unanimously recommended that an enhanced version of Loran, known as eLORAN, "be completed and retained as the national backup system for GPS," saying it had "critical safety of life, national and economic security, and quality of life applications." But the Obama administration has described Loran as unnecessary and antiquated. In a May 7 speech, Obama used Loran as an example of government waste. When Bush looked into shutting Loran down, there was quite a bit of discussion regarding the proposal. I recall surveys were conducted, including one by the Coast Guard, to get public opinion and input. A panel of experts rendered their opinion. The input resulted in a decision to continue funding Loran. Now, President Obama simply decides to shut it down. No discussion that I know of. Decision was made pretty much unilaterally it appears because *he* doesn't think it's necessary and a waste of money. Interesting. Eisboch |
Bye, bye Loran
"hk" wrote in message m... The U.S. is not the only country with GPS satellites... :) True. The Russians have the GLONASS system. That's about it. There is a European system called Galileo in development and a Chinese system also in development, but right now the only operational systems are by the USA and Russia and they are not compatible. Eisboch |
Bye, bye Loran
On 4/4/10 7:40 PM, Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message m... The U.S. is not the only country with GPS satellites... :) True. The Russians have the GLONASS system. That's about it. There is a European system called Galileo in development and a Chinese system also in development, but right now the only operational systems are by the USA and Russia and they are not compatible. Eisboch This from the NY Times: April 4, 2007 Russia Challenges the U.S. Monopoly on Satellite Navigation By ANDREW E. KRAMER MOSCOW, April 3 — The days of their cold war may have passed, but Russia and the United States are in the midst of another battle — this one a technological fight over the United States monopoly on satellite navigation. By the end of the year, the authorities here say, the Russian space agency plans to launch eight navigation satellites that would nearly complete the country’s own system, called Glonass, for Global Navigation Satellite System. The system is expected to begin operating over Russian territory and parts of adjacent Europe and Asia, and then go global in 2009 to compete with the Global Positioning System of the United States. Nor is Russia the only country trying to break the American monopoly on navigation technology. China has already sent up satellites to create its own system, called Baidu after the Chinese word for the Big Dipper. And the European Union has also begun developing a rival system, Galileo, although work has been halted because of doubts among the private contractors over its potential for profits. Russia’s system is furthest along, paid for with government oil revenue. What is driving the technological battle is, in part, the potential for many more uses for satellite navigation than the one most people know it for — giving driving instructions to travelers. Businesses as disparate as agriculture and banking are integrating it into their operations. Satellite navigation may provide the platform for services like site-specific advertising, with directions that appear on cellphone screens when a user is walking, for example, near a Starbucks coffee shop or a McDonald’s restaurant. Sales of G.P.S. devices are already booming. The global market for the devices hit $15 billion in 2006, according to the GPS Industry Council, a Washington trade group, and is expanding at a rate of 25 to 30 percent annually. But what is also behind the battle for control of navigation technology is a fear that the United States could use its monopoly — the system was developed and is controlled by the military, after all — to switch off signals in a time of crisis. “In a few years, business without a navigation signal will become inconceivable,” said Andrei G. Ionin, an aerospace analyst with the Center for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, which is linked to the Russian defense ministry. “Everything that moves will use a navigation signal — airplanes, trains, yachts, people, rockets, valuable animals and favorite pets.” When that happens, countries that choose to rely only on G.P.S., he said, will be falling into “a geopolitical trap” of American dominance of an important Internet-age infrastructure. The United States could theoretically deny navigation signals to countries like Iran and North Korea, not just in time of war, but as a high-tech form of economic sanction that could disrupt power grids, banking systems and other industries, he said. The United States government’s stated policy is to provide uninterrupted signals globally. G.P.S. devices, in fact, are at the center of the dispute over the Iranian seizure of 15 British sailors and marines. The British maintain that the devices on their boats showed they were in Iraqi waters; the Iranians have countered with map coordinates that it said showed they had been in Iranian waters. Russia’s project, of course, carries wide implications for armies around the world by providing a navigation system not controlled by the Pentagon, complementing Moscow’s increasingly assertive foreign policy stance. The United States formally opened G.P.S. to civilian users in 1993 by promising to provide it continually, at no cost, around the world. The Russian system is also calculated to send ripples through the fast-expanding industry for consumer navigation devices by promising a slight technical advantage over G.P.S. alone, analysts and industry executives say. Devices receiving signals from both systems would presumably be more reliable. President Vladimir V. Putin, who speaks often about Glonass and its possibilities, has prodded his scientists to make the product consumer friendly. “The network must be impeccable, better than G.P.S., and cheaper if we want clients to choose Glonass,” Mr. Putin said last month at a Russian government meeting on the system, according to the Interfax news agency. “You know how much I care about Glonass,” Mr. Putin told his ministers. G.P.S. has its roots in the American military in the 1960s. In 1983, before the system was fully functional, President Ronald Reagan suggested making it available to civilian users around the world after a Korean Air flight strayed into Soviet airspace and was shot down. G.P.S. got its first military test in the Persian Gulf war in 1991, and was seen as a big reason for the success of the precision bombing campaign, which helped spur its adoption in commercial applications in the 1990s. The Russian system, like America’s G.P.S., has roots in the cold war technology to guide strategic bombers and missiles. It was briefly operational in the mid-1990s, but fell into disrepair. The Russian satellites send signals that are usable now but work only intermittently. To operate globally, a system needs a minimum of 24 satellites, the number in the G.P.S. constellation, not counting spares in orbit. A receiver must be in line of sight of no fewer than three satellites at any time to triangulate an accurate position. A fourth satellite is needed to calculate altitude. As other countries introduce competing systems, devices capable of receiving foreign signals along with G.P.S. will more often be in line of sight of three or more satellites. Within the United States, Western Europe and Japan, ground-based transmissions hone the accuracy of signals to within a few feet of a location — better than what could be achieved with satellite signals alone. The Russian and eventual European or Chinese systems, therefore, would make receivers more reliable in preventing signal loss when there are obstructions, like steep canyons, tall buildings or even trees. Still, a Glonass-capable G.P.S. receiver in the United States, Western Europe or Japan would not be more accurate than a G.P.S. system alone, because of the ground-based correction signals. In other parts of the world, a Glonass-capable G.P.S. receiver would be more reliable and slightly more accurate. American manufacturers that are dominant in the industry could be confronted with pressure to offer these advantages to customers by making devices compatible with the Russian system, inevitably undermining the American monopoly on navigation signals used in commerce. In this sense, the Russians are setting off the first salvo in a battle for an infrastructure in the skies. Russia sees a great deal at stake in influencing the standards that will be used in civilian consumer devices. The market for satellite navigators is growing rapidly. Garmin, the largest American manufacturer, more than doubled sales of automobile navigators in 2006, for example, and in February it showed a Super Bowl ad that was seen as a coming of age for G.P.S. navigators as a mass market product. Jeremy D. Ludwig was one consumer who said he would be willing to pay a slight premium for a device equipped with a chip capable of processing Russian navigation signals. He recounted a recent trip on Interstate 25 in Colorado, when, he said, he was dismayed to discover the G.P.S. device on his BlackBerry had inexplicably lost its signal, just as he was trying to decide which exit to take into Denver. “If you don’t know which exit to take, you’re already lost,” Mr. Ludwig, an art student, said in a recent telephone interview from Colorado Springs. That kind of attitude is what Russia is banking on even as it also takes a stab at making consumer receivers — so far without much success. But the Russian goal of diversifying navigation signals used in commerce will be achieved, Mr. Ionin said, even if foreign manufacturers simply adopt the Russian standard, and even if Russia’s own attempt to make consumer devices fails. To encourage wide acceptance, Mr. Putin has been pitching the system during foreign visits, asking for collaboration and financial support. Now, only makers of high-end surveying and professional navigation receivers have adopted dual-system capability. Topcon Positioning Systems of Livermore, Calif., for example, offers a Glonass and G.P.S. receiver for surveyors and heavy-equipment operators. Javad Navigation Systems is built around making dual-system receivers, with offices in San Jose and Moscow. Javad Ashjaee, the president of Javad, said in an interview that wide adoption was inevitable because more satellites provided an inherently better service. “If you have G.P.S., you have 90 percent of what you need,” he said. Russia’s system will succeed, he said, “for that extra 10 percent.” Adding Glonass to low-end consumer devices would require a new chip, with associated design costs, but probably not much in the way of additional manufacturing expenses, he said. Already this year, in a sign of growing acceptance of Glonass, another high-end manufacturer, Trimble, based in Sunnyvale, Calif., introduced a Russian-compatible device for agricultural navigators, used for applying pesticides, for example. Whether consumer goods manufacturers will follow is an open question, John R. Bucher, a wireless equipment analyst at BMO Capital Markets, said in a telephone interview. Garmin, which has more than 50 percent of the American market, has not yet taken a position on Glonass. “We are waiting,” Jessica Myers, a spokeswoman for Garmin, said in a telephone interview. For most consumers, she said, devices are reliable enough already. Growth in the industry is driven instead by better digital mapping and software, making what already exists more useful. Garmin’s latest car navigator, for example, alerts drivers to traffic jams on the road ahead and the price of gas at nearby stations. At home at least, the Kremlin is guaranteeing a market by requiring ships, airplanes and trucks carrying hazardous materials to operate with Glonass receivers, while providing grants to half a dozen Russian manufacturers of navigators. Technically precise they may be, but even by Russian standards, some of the Russian-made products coming to market now are noticeably lacking in convenience features. At the Russian Institute of Radionavigation and Time in St. Petersburg, for example, scientists have developed the M-103 dual system receiver. The precision device theoretically operates more reliably than a G.P.S. unit under tough conditions, like the urban canyons of Manhattan. With its boxy appearance, the M-103 resembles a Korean War-era military walkie-talkie. It weighs about one pound and sells for $1,000, display screen not included. To operate, a user must unfurl a cable linking the set to an external antenna mounted on a spiked stick, intended to be jabbed into a field. “Unfortunately, we haven’t developed a hand-held version yet,” said Vadim S. Zholnerov, a deputy director of the institute. I'm sure W'hine has at least one Russian GPS receiver on Xanadu, his boat. -- http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym |
Bye, bye Loran
"hk" wrote in message m... On 4/4/10 7:40 PM, Eisboch wrote: wrote in message m... The U.S. is not the only country with GPS satellites... :) True. The Russians have the GLONASS system. That's about it. There is a European system called Galileo in development and a Chinese system also in development, but right now the only operational systems are by the USA and Russia and they are not compatible. Eisboch This from the NY Times: April 4, 2007 Russia Challenges the U.S. Monopoly on Satellite Navigation By ANDREW E. KRAMER As an unqualified to judge layperson, I don't think Loran should be shut down. The USA is becoming totally dependent on *one* system for commerce, commercial shipping and military applications. The potential damage or risk to any of them is a matter of national security. To operate without a backup system is foolhardy. Eisboch |
Bye, bye Loran
On 4/4/10 8:11 PM, Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message m... On 4/4/10 7:40 PM, Eisboch wrote: wrote in message m... The U.S. is not the only country with GPS satellites... :) True. The Russians have the GLONASS system. That's about it. There is a European system called Galileo in development and a Chinese system also in development, but right now the only operational systems are by the USA and Russia and they are not compatible. Eisboch This from the NY Times: April 4, 2007 Russia Challenges the U.S. Monopoly on Satellite Navigation By ANDREW E. KRAMER As an unqualified to judge layperson, I don't think Loran should be shut down. The USA is becoming totally dependent on *one* system for commerce, commercial shipping and military applications. The potential damage or risk to any of them is a matter of national security. To operate without a backup system is foolhardy. Eisboch Well, perhaps we should all buy some Russian GPS receiver for backup. :) So, when LORAN was all there was, we were in "foolhardy" mode? :) I started boating when all I had was a compass and a paper chart. -- http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym |
Bye, bye Loran
On 4/4/10 8:15 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 17:03:46 GMT, "A.Boater" wrote: the White House fought to close Loran-C in favor of eLoran. OKI I admit I don't know a lot about this but are they just shutting down LORAN-C in favor of another land based system, E-LORAN? If so, other than having to buy the next new thing, what is the problem? I do understand the concern of the loss of the GPS satellites. They are big terrorist targets primed for the taking. We should have something else. Of course a lot of the applications we call "GPS" are really triangulating cell phone towers. That came from the 911 deal (the phone number, not the date). I want the GPS coordinates of your pineapples... :) -- http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym |
Bye, bye Loran
On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 10:17:57 -0600, Canuck57
wrote: On 04/04/2010 7:58 AM, hk wrote: Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years, Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as "the father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a backup. Somehow Obama is being a real jerk in insulting our intelligence. Even if we are gullable to believe it costs $190 million over 5 years to keep, lets do some math. 38 million a year savings (questionable). Obama overspend, $1.7 trillion, 2010 only. Obama just saves 0.0022%. Big savers NOT. Obama needs to find and execute some 44736 such savings this year to balance the budget. notice that, even when obama cuts spending, the right cant stop bitching? their solution? well...they have none. But no one ever accused Obama of thinking things through before his gums move. and what did bush do? i'm sure he thought long and hard before he got us into a trillion dollar war. |
Bye, bye Loran
On 04/04/2010 8:06 PM, bpuharic wrote:
On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 10:17:57 -0600, wrote: On 04/04/2010 7:58 AM, hk wrote: Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years, Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as "the father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a backup. Somehow Obama is being a real jerk in insulting our intelligence. Even if we are gullable to believe it costs $190 million over 5 years to keep, lets do some math. 38 million a year savings (questionable). Obama overspend, $1.7 trillion, 2010 only. Obama just saves 0.0022%. Big savers NOT. Obama needs to find and execute some 44736 such savings this year to balance the budget. notice that, even when obama cuts spending, the right cant stop bitching? their solution? well...they have none. You are pathetic with math. There is about the same impact to peeing in the ocean than what this cut represents to the US budget debt issues. Save a penny and debt spend a $100... the Obama way. -- Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money. |
Bye, bye Loran
On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 19:28:15 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:
Now, President Obama simply decides to shut it down. No discussion that I know of. Decision was made pretty much unilaterally it appears because *he* doesn't think it's necessary and a waste of money. Interesting. Actually, I think it was the right decision. It has been almost imppossible to buy new Loran-C equipment, or get old equipment serviced, for quite a few years now. The market for it has disappeared because no one really wants it. I was a big Loran-C user for a while starting in the early to mid 80s. It was a huge improvement over Loran-A, aircraft VOR, and radio direction finders in general, but hardly perfect, or perfectly reliable. Loran-C frequently became worthless in thunderstorms when you sometimes needed it most, and it was susceptible to a variety of systemic problems based on the geometry of transmitting stations. I've been using GPS exclusively now for over 15 years and have never looked back. The military have a variety of backup systems they can use when needed. Digital electronics have also brought the cost of inertial systems down out of the stratosphere, needing only a mass market to make them widely affordable. |
Bye, bye Loran
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Bye, bye Loran
On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 10:34:28 -0600, Canuck57
wrote: On 04/04/2010 8:06 PM, bpuharic wrote: On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 10:17:57 -0600, wrote: Obama overspend, $1.7 trillion, 2010 only. Obama just saves 0.0022%. Big savers NOT. Obama needs to find and execute some 44736 such savings this year to balance the budget. notice that, even when obama cuts spending, the right cant stop bitching? their solution? well...they have none. You are pathetic with math. There is about the same impact to peeing in the ocean than what this cut represents to the US budget debt issues. Save a penny and debt spend a $100... the Obama way. as i said...bitch bitch bitch. no solutions. the right ****ed up the economy then bitches when people try to fix it. |
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