Are manatee-crossing signs next?
 

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:38:05 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

You sound like an environmentalist! Good for you.

I don't care what they call them. People need to protect their pets and
kids. It's not the mountain lion's fault. They're acting as they should,
esp. given our intrusion into their natural habitat.

--

I prefer "conservationist" in the Teddy Roosevelt vein.

Environmentalism is a cult religion.


Careful... the National Parks should be privatized according to some. :)

--
Nom=de=Plume

Are manatee-crossing signs next?
 

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:22:27 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

On Feb 23, 10:00 am, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 04:47:35 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2010/...speed-zones-go...

Looks like they're getting their own speed zone, now...

They have had their own speed zones in Lee County for over a
decade.http://myfwc.com/docs/WildlifeHabita...tee_leeMPZ.pdf
Vast areas are slow speed, either all year or seasonal.
The speed limit around the 10,000 islands was 20. Now it is slow
speed. I assume that is all year.

I figured that was in order. I'm wondering though at that slow of a
speed wihen the battle wagons come though there, at such slow speed
they plow deep. I supppose the next thing will be that prop guards
will be made manditory.

The ones that get prop scarred are the lucky ones. The ones that die
are usually the ones who can't get deep enough to avoid the blunt
force trauma of a keel hit or taking an outboard leg in the side.
If you see a prop scar, it is usually an inboard.

The more they looked at these things the more they figured out are
around so the current thought is they should probably be de-listed if
you used any rational logic in determining what should be protected
but there has never been much logic in manatee or panther protection.
Both are far from endangered if you use the ESA rules. In fact there
is no such thing as the Florida Panther in the strict sense. They are
hybrids, cross bred with Texas cats.

When I told my wife about this she just asked "who is going to enforce
this"?
They better bring a helicopter if they are going to try to catch one
of those Everglades City boys going through the mangroves.



The manatees are listed as endangered by the ESA. There are thought to be
fewer than 2000. Even if they weren't, why not protect them, since they
can't outrun the boats or dive deep enough. Does it really threaten your
"freedom" to slow down and look where you're going? (Not you
specifically....)

--
Nom=de=Plume

They're a non-native species and they pollute the waters. Let's send them
home.

Are manatee-crossing signs next?
 

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:46:35 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:22:27 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

On Feb 23, 10:00 am, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 04:47:35 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2010/...speed-zones-go...

Looks like they're getting their own speed zone, now...

They have had their own speed zones in Lee County for over a
decade.http://myfwc.com/docs/WildlifeHabita...tee_leeMPZ.pdf
Vast areas are slow speed, either all year or seasonal.
The speed limit around the 10,000 islands was 20. Now it is slow
speed. I assume that is all year.

I figured that was in order. I'm wondering though at that slow of a
speed wihen the battle wagons come though there, at such slow speed
they plow deep. I supppose the next thing will be that prop guards
will be made manditory.

The ones that get prop scarred are the lucky ones. The ones that die
are usually the ones who can't get deep enough to avoid the blunt
force trauma of a keel hit or taking an outboard leg in the side.
If you see a prop scar, it is usually an inboard.

The more they looked at these things the more they figured out are
around so the current thought is they should probably be de-listed if
you used any rational logic in determining what should be protected
but there has never been much logic in manatee or panther protection.
Both are far from endangered if you use the ESA rules. In fact there
is no such thing as the Florida Panther in the strict sense. They are
hybrids, cross bred with Texas cats.

When I told my wife about this she just asked "who is going to enforce
this"?
They better bring a helicopter if they are going to try to catch one
of those Everglades City boys going through the mangroves.



The manatees are listed as endangered by the ESA. There are thought to be
fewer than 2000. Even if they weren't, why not protect them, since they
can't outrun the boats or dive deep enough. Does it really threaten your
"freedom" to slow down and look where you're going? (Not you
specifically....)

That is an old statistic. When they finally started counting them they
found out there are several thousand in our little county alone.
There is a move afoot to delist the manatee, based on the ESA rules.

The real problem is that FPL has a power plant here that used to
discharge a lot of warm water in the Caloosahatchee river and that
attracted the manatee to that particular spot. That is also where most
are killed, either right at the plant or coming and going from there.
Unfortunately that river is also the only east west passage across
Florida. It is like putting a salt lick in the middle of the I-5 and
wondering why so many deer get run over.

The real irony is when they converted that plant from bunker oil to
natural gas they did not have as much waste heat so the greenie
weenies sued to force FPL to artificially heat the water instead of
allowing the manatees to migrate south like they are supposed to.
A lot more manatee die each year from starvation and cold shock
because of that than boat strikes. There is just not enough food
around that plant to support that many manatee.
It also does a real number on our fecal coliform counts, forcing the
closure of a few beaches every winter. 1000 manatee is a 50 acre plot
are basically like a sewer pipe discharging right into the water

The other thing people do not accept is speed may not even be the
biggest problem with boat collisions. Manatees are not smart enough to
get out of the way, even if you are going slow and I have actually had
them swim up behind my boat when I was running at idle/slow speed and
put their nose right up to the prop.. They are attracted to the water
discharge from the "pee hole" because people use their garden hose to
bring manatee up to the dock for a drink of fresh water (or whatever
attracts a manatee to a hose squirting in the water).

I am all for protecting wildlife but most of this manatee problem is
man made by the same people who think they are protecting them.
The "manatee zones" are political compromises that are not actually
based on much science. It simply gives the politicians political cover
when people ask what they are doing. They can say we protected "x"
thousand square miles of water for the manatee, whether that is where
the manatee are or not. This 10,000 islands zone has not been
protected that much up until now because for most of the winter, the
water is too cold for a manatee. The same is true in most of Florida,
except where we are creating hot spots.
If we were really following the ESA we would not be discharging the
hot water in the first place (the ESA says we are not supposed to
interrupt their natural behavior). We certainly would not be
artificially heating it. Unfortunately this policy is driven by people
out in "flyover land" who have never seen a manatee, don't own a boat
and know very little about either one of them.


BTW how do you feel about mountain lions?
What if someone called them the "California Panther" and said you
could not disturb one that was eating your pets and chasing your kids?
We have that going on here too. Again, it is mostly driven by people
who don't live here.


You sound like an environmentalist! Good for you.

I don't care what they call them. People need to protect their pets and
kids. It's not the mountain lion's fault. They're acting as they should,
esp. given our intrusion into their natural habitat.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Yeah "Sorry, my 3 year old sweet little human child, but the poor cougar is
doing what it's supposed to by dragging you off for lunch".

Not much of an internal struggle for a parent:
bangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbang

Are manatee-crossing signs next?
 

On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:37:53 -0500, "mmc" wrote:


"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:22:27 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

On Feb 23, 10:00 am, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 04:47:35 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2010/...speed-zones-go...

Looks like they're getting their own speed zone, now...

They have had their own speed zones in Lee County for over a
decade.http://myfwc.com/docs/WildlifeHabita...tee_leeMPZ.pdf
Vast areas are slow speed, either all year or seasonal.
The speed limit around the 10,000 islands was 20. Now it is slow
speed. I assume that is all year.

I figured that was in order. I'm wondering though at that slow of a
speed wihen the battle wagons come though there, at such slow speed
they plow deep. I supppose the next thing will be that prop guards
will be made manditory.

The ones that get prop scarred are the lucky ones. The ones that die
are usually the ones who can't get deep enough to avoid the blunt
force trauma of a keel hit or taking an outboard leg in the side.
If you see a prop scar, it is usually an inboard.

The more they looked at these things the more they figured out are
around so the current thought is they should probably be de-listed if
you used any rational logic in determining what should be protected
but there has never been much logic in manatee or panther protection.
Both are far from endangered if you use the ESA rules. In fact there
is no such thing as the Florida Panther in the strict sense. They are
hybrids, cross bred with Texas cats.

When I told my wife about this she just asked "who is going to enforce
this"?
They better bring a helicopter if they are going to try to catch one
of those Everglades City boys going through the mangroves.



The manatees are listed as endangered by the ESA. There are thought to be
fewer than 2000. Even if they weren't, why not protect them, since they
can't outrun the boats or dive deep enough. Does it really threaten your
"freedom" to slow down and look where you're going? (Not you
specifically....)

--
Nom=de=Plume

They're a non-native species and they pollute the waters. Let's send them
home.


Kinda like what many think of nincdepoop's relationship to rec.boats.
--

John H

Are manatee-crossing signs next?
 

"mmc" wrote in message
g.com...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:46:35 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

wrote in message
m...
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:22:27 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

On Feb 23, 10:00 am, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 04:47:35 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2010/...speed-zones-go...

Looks like they're getting their own speed zone, now...

They have had their own speed zones in Lee County for over a
decade.http://myfwc.com/docs/WildlifeHabita...tee_leeMPZ.pdf
Vast areas are slow speed, either all year or seasonal.
The speed limit around the 10,000 islands was 20. Now it is slow
speed. I assume that is all year.

I figured that was in order. I'm wondering though at that slow of a
speed wihen the battle wagons come though there, at such slow speed
they plow deep. I supppose the next thing will be that prop guards
will be made manditory.

The ones that get prop scarred are the lucky ones. The ones that die
are usually the ones who can't get deep enough to avoid the blunt
force trauma of a keel hit or taking an outboard leg in the side.
If you see a prop scar, it is usually an inboard.

The more they looked at these things the more they figured out are
around so the current thought is they should probably be de-listed if
you used any rational logic in determining what should be protected
but there has never been much logic in manatee or panther protection.
Both are far from endangered if you use the ESA rules. In fact there
is no such thing as the Florida Panther in the strict sense. They are
hybrids, cross bred with Texas cats.

When I told my wife about this she just asked "who is going to enforce
this"?
They better bring a helicopter if they are going to try to catch one
of those Everglades City boys going through the mangroves.



The manatees are listed as endangered by the ESA. There are thought to
be
fewer than 2000. Even if they weren't, why not protect them, since they
can't outrun the boats or dive deep enough. Does it really threaten your
"freedom" to slow down and look where you're going? (Not you
specifically....)

That is an old statistic. When they finally started counting them they
found out there are several thousand in our little county alone.
There is a move afoot to delist the manatee, based on the ESA rules.

The real problem is that FPL has a power plant here that used to
discharge a lot of warm water in the Caloosahatchee river and that
attracted the manatee to that particular spot. That is also where most
are killed, either right at the plant or coming and going from there.
Unfortunately that river is also the only east west passage across
Florida. It is like putting a salt lick in the middle of the I-5 and
wondering why so many deer get run over.

The real irony is when they converted that plant from bunker oil to
natural gas they did not have as much waste heat so the greenie
weenies sued to force FPL to artificially heat the water instead of
allowing the manatees to migrate south like they are supposed to.
A lot more manatee die each year from starvation and cold shock
because of that than boat strikes. There is just not enough food
around that plant to support that many manatee.
It also does a real number on our fecal coliform counts, forcing the
closure of a few beaches every winter. 1000 manatee is a 50 acre plot
are basically like a sewer pipe discharging right into the water

The other thing people do not accept is speed may not even be the
biggest problem with boat collisions. Manatees are not smart enough to
get out of the way, even if you are going slow and I have actually had
them swim up behind my boat when I was running at idle/slow speed and
put their nose right up to the prop.. They are attracted to the water
discharge from the "pee hole" because people use their garden hose to
bring manatee up to the dock for a drink of fresh water (or whatever
attracts a manatee to a hose squirting in the water).

I am all for protecting wildlife but most of this manatee problem is
man made by the same people who think they are protecting them.
The "manatee zones" are political compromises that are not actually
based on much science. It simply gives the politicians political cover
when people ask what they are doing. They can say we protected "x"
thousand square miles of water for the manatee, whether that is where
the manatee are or not. This 10,000 islands zone has not been
protected that much up until now because for most of the winter, the
water is too cold for a manatee. The same is true in most of Florida,
except where we are creating hot spots.
If we were really following the ESA we would not be discharging the
hot water in the first place (the ESA says we are not supposed to
interrupt their natural behavior). We certainly would not be
artificially heating it. Unfortunately this policy is driven by people
out in "flyover land" who have never seen a manatee, don't own a boat
and know very little about either one of them.


BTW how do you feel about mountain lions?
What if someone called them the "California Panther" and said you
could not disturb one that was eating your pets and chasing your kids?
We have that going on here too. Again, it is mostly driven by people
who don't live here.


You sound like an environmentalist! Good for you.

I don't care what they call them. People need to protect their pets and
kids. It's not the mountain lion's fault. They're acting as they should,
esp. given our intrusion into their natural habitat.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Yeah "Sorry, my 3 year old sweet little human child, but the poor cougar
is doing what it's supposed to by dragging you off for lunch".

Not much of an internal struggle for a parent:
bangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbang




Perhaps if the sweet little human child had parents who had an ounce of
sense, the child wouldn't get eaten.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Are manatee-crossing signs next?
 

"mmc" wrote in message
g.com...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:22:27 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

On Feb 23, 10:00 am, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 04:47:35 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2010/...speed-zones-go...

Looks like they're getting their own speed zone, now...

They have had their own speed zones in Lee County for over a
decade.http://myfwc.com/docs/WildlifeHabita...tee_leeMPZ.pdf
Vast areas are slow speed, either all year or seasonal.
The speed limit around the 10,000 islands was 20. Now it is slow
speed. I assume that is all year.

I figured that was in order. I'm wondering though at that slow of a
speed wihen the battle wagons come though there, at such slow speed
they plow deep. I supppose the next thing will be that prop guards
will be made manditory.

The ones that get prop scarred are the lucky ones. The ones that die
are usually the ones who can't get deep enough to avoid the blunt
force trauma of a keel hit or taking an outboard leg in the side.
If you see a prop scar, it is usually an inboard.

The more they looked at these things the more they figured out are
around so the current thought is they should probably be de-listed if
you used any rational logic in determining what should be protected
but there has never been much logic in manatee or panther protection.
Both are far from endangered if you use the ESA rules. In fact there
is no such thing as the Florida Panther in the strict sense. They are
hybrids, cross bred with Texas cats.

When I told my wife about this she just asked "who is going to enforce
this"?
They better bring a helicopter if they are going to try to catch one
of those Everglades City boys going through the mangroves.



The manatees are listed as endangered by the ESA. There are thought to be
fewer than 2000. Even if they weren't, why not protect them, since they
can't outrun the boats or dive deep enough. Does it really threaten your
"freedom" to slow down and look where you're going? (Not you
specifically....)

--
Nom=de=Plume

They're a non-native species and they pollute the waters. Let's send them
home.



Sorry, but you're wrong...

http://www.fws.gov/northflorida/mana...tive-facts.htm


--
Nom=de=Plume

Are manatee-crossing signs next?
 

"John H" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:37:53 -0500, "mmc" wrote:


"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:22:27 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

On Feb 23, 10:00 am, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 04:47:35 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2010/...speed-zones-go...

Looks like they're getting their own speed zone, now...

They have had their own speed zones in Lee County for over a
decade.http://myfwc.com/docs/WildlifeHabita...tee_leeMPZ.pdf
Vast areas are slow speed, either all year or seasonal.
The speed limit around the 10,000 islands was 20. Now it is slow
speed. I assume that is all year.

I figured that was in order. I'm wondering though at that slow of a
speed wihen the battle wagons come though there, at such slow speed
they plow deep. I supppose the next thing will be that prop guards
will be made manditory.

The ones that get prop scarred are the lucky ones. The ones that die
are usually the ones who can't get deep enough to avoid the blunt
force trauma of a keel hit or taking an outboard leg in the side.
If you see a prop scar, it is usually an inboard.

The more they looked at these things the more they figured out are
around so the current thought is they should probably be de-listed if
you used any rational logic in determining what should be protected
but there has never been much logic in manatee or panther protection.
Both are far from endangered if you use the ESA rules. In fact there
is no such thing as the Florida Panther in the strict sense. They are
hybrids, cross bred with Texas cats.

When I told my wife about this she just asked "who is going to enforce
this"?
They better bring a helicopter if they are going to try to catch one
of those Everglades City boys going through the mangroves.



The manatees are listed as endangered by the ESA. There are thought to
be
fewer than 2000. Even if they weren't, why not protect them, since they
can't outrun the boats or dive deep enough. Does it really threaten your
"freedom" to slow down and look where you're going? (Not you
specifically....)

--
Nom=de=Plume

They're a non-native species and they pollute the waters. Let's send them
home.


Kinda like what many think of nincdepoop's relationship to rec.boats.
--

John H


Kinda like your relationship to reality.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Are manatee-crossing signs next?
 

On Feb 24, 2:11*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:37:53 -0800, "nom=de=plume"



wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:46:35 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

The manatees are listed as endangered by the ESA. There are thought to be
fewer than 2000. Even if they weren't, why not protect them, since they
can't outrun the boats or dive deep enough. Does it really threaten your
"freedom" to slow down and look where you're going? (Not you
specifically....)

This is probably an exercise in futility but I'll give it one try.
Manatees are listed as endangered only because of the high powered
lobbying efforts of the well funded Save The Manatee Club. STMC
members have donated millions of dollars and the club feels an
obligation to spend that money lobbying for new regulations, needed or
not. * Most places in South Florida have enough Manatees that they are
at risk of over breeding their habitat.

How would youfeel about a 5 mph speed limit on your local highway to
prevent the risk of road kill?

So, the number they gave of about 2000 is wrong? If so, then you must have a
number you can point to? At some point, someone has to make a determination
about if a species is endangered or not. It's currently the ESA. The claim
was they they don't list them, but they do.

I brake for lots of creatures, but a highway is a bit different than on the
water. I don't want to get in a wreck over a squirrel.

http://www.news-press.com/article/20...028/Huge-numbe...

Bear in mind this is just the ones they can see, in the places they
looked. Usually people without an axe to grind will double that number
for a real count for any given area and then you have to just wild
assed guess about the areas you don't survey.

They usually count in the winter when the "natural" population moves
south, out of the US waters so they are really only counting the
domesticated ones around the power plants.

The ESA is usually just being used as a "tool" to stop development
around here. I don't really have a problem with that because there are
too many people here now but I do agree with people who say it is
dishonest.
They had used the manatee to stop dock construction but the state got
sued for a "taking" and they quietly backed off. That is much like the
Reahard case that severely limited "taking" wetlands without just
compensation. If that was more publically known I am sure there are
lots of people who would be suing over rezonings.
That one cost Lee County $22 million for 40 acres a guy couldn't
develop.
We have had quite a few cases like that around here that redefined the
government's power but they don't seem to be well known outside this
area. We had an indian who proved there was no such thing as a Florida
Panther with DNA but the government folded up their briefcases and
settled before that went to a decision.

They dont' look very endangered to me. They look more like pets...


http://www.treehugger.com/manatee-sy...rida-photo.jpg

Are manatee-crossing signs next?
 

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 13:32:01 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

I prefer "conservationist" in the Teddy Roosevelt vein.

Environmentalism is a cult religion.


Careful... the National Parks should be privatized according to some. :)

... but remember Teddy R was the one who started the park system.
I see no confusion there.

I can see privatizing the operation of the parks but that is already
going on. The government should maintain ownership.


That was my point... he started it, but I'm sure there are lots of people
who are upset about it.

I don't think park operations should be privatized, except in the most
minimally intrusive ways.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Are manatee-crossing signs next?
 

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:59:19 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

They're a non-native species and they pollute the waters. Let's send
them
home.



Sorry, but you're wrong...

http://www.fws.gov/northflorida/mana...tive-facts.htm


--

Correct, the thing that is different is we have created a year round
presence, concentrated around a half dozen power plants where this
used to be a migratory species that was only here in the summer.
In that regard the ESA should have prohibited the thermal pollution of
the power plants and allowed the manatee to resume their normal
migratory patterns.


No argument here. We've screwed up lots of things... sigh.

--
Nom=de=Plume