Another physicist not on the AGW payroll;
 

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:40:11 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote:



nom needs to learn some technology and chemistry. R12 and R22 were
the "bad" CFCs whereas the new CFCs do not cause ozone degradation.
We no longer use R12 and R22.

Most none-automobile HVAC, large and small, including industrial
chillers and kitchen fridges, still use R22.
It'll be 10 more years before R22 won't be produced.
http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/phas...2phaseout.html

--Vic



But what about all the 3rd world countries?

Another physicist not on the AGW payroll;
 

Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:40:11 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote:


nom needs to learn some technology and chemistry. R12 and R22 were
the "bad" CFCs whereas the new CFCs do not cause ozone degradation.
We no longer use R12 and R22.

Most none-automobile HVAC, large and small, including industrial
chillers and kitchen fridges, still use R22.
It'll be 10 more years before R22 won't be produced.
http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/phas...2phaseout.html

--Vic


The phase out starts in 2010, as I understand it. No new products will
be built that use R22. I wonder if that includes repair parts for
existing products?

Another physicist not on the AGW payroll;
 

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:28:36 -0500, Jim wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:40:11 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote:


nom needs to learn some technology and chemistry. R12 and R22 were
the "bad" CFCs whereas the new CFCs do not cause ozone degradation.
We no longer use R12 and R22.

Most none-automobile HVAC, large and small, including industrial
chillers and kitchen fridges, still use R22.
It'll be 10 more years before R22 won't be produced.
http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/phas...2phaseout.html

--Vic


The phase out starts in 2010, as I understand it. No new products will
be built that use R22. I wonder if that includes repair parts for
existing products?

From what I understand recycled R22 can still be used in existing
equipment even after 2020 - just no new R22 produced.
I looked into this some time ago when the compressor on my fridge
started acting up. Found that those were commonly charged with R12
and these are millions of pounds of R12 still circulating in kitchen
units.
It's confusing, and it's even hard to get straight answers from HVAC
guys. Different HVAC guy, different answer.
I didn't get deep into it. I suspect it'll go the same way as car
R12, except on a slower timetable - as substitutes come along they'll
transition over. Expense will guide the transition.
This gives a glimpse of the disagreements among HVAC pros.
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=202076&page=1

Includes some interesting - to me - comments about chlorine in pools
destroying the ozone. Never heard that one.
But I don't know how valid that is.
I'm sure the climate scientists here know - that's for sure.
Of course the answer will depend on what Al Gore or James Inhofe
whispers in their ear.
BTW, when the R12 system on my '90 Corsica needed a charge
my long-time mech said he'd convert it and charge it with R134 for
$120. R12 prices were sky high.
I'd heard in pop talk that to convert you need a new compressor,
hoses, evap, etc and be lucky to come out of it at $7-900.
He said, nah, he does it all the time. Just evac the R12 in his
machine, change the charge valves, and fill it with R134.
I said go ahead, and had cold air for 3 years before the compressor
quit. Probably not even related to the R134, as GM compressors are
crap and that one lasting 12 years was a record for me.

--Vic

Another physicist not on the AGW payroll;
 

On Dec 23, 2:58*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:28:36 -0500, Jim wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:40:11 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote:

nom needs to learn some technology and chemistry. *R12 and R22 were
the "bad" CFCs whereas the new CFCs do not cause ozone degradation.
We no longer use R12 and R22.

Most none-automobile HVAC, large and small, including industrial
chillers and kitchen fridges, still use R22.
It'll be 10 more years before R22 won't be produced.
http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/phas...2phaseout.html

--Vic

The phase out starts in 2010, as I understand it. No new products will
be built that use R22. I wonder if that includes repair parts for
existing * products?

From what I understand recycled R22 can still be used in existing
equipment even after 2020 - just no new R22 produced.
I looked into this some time ago when the compressor on my fridge
started acting up. *Found that those were commonly charged with R12
and these are millions of pounds of R12 still circulating in kitchen
units.
It's confusing, and it's even hard to get straight answers from HVAC
guys. *Different HVAC guy, different answer.
I didn't get deep into it. *I suspect it'll go the same way as car
R12, except on a slower timetable - as substitutes come along they'll
transition over. *Expense will guide the transition. *
This gives a glimpse of the disagreements among HVAC pros.http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=202076&page=1

Includes some interesting - to me - comments about chlorine in pools
destroying the ozone. *Never heard that one.
But I don't know how valid that is.
I'm sure the climate scientists here know - that's for sure.
Of course the answer will depend on what Al Gore or James Inhofe
whispers in their ear.
BTW, when the R12 system on my '90 Corsica needed a charge
my long-time mech said he'd convert it and charge it with R134 for
$120. *R12 prices were sky high.
I'd heard in pop talk that to convert you need a new compressor,
hoses, evap, etc and be lucky to come out of it at $7-900.
He said, nah, he does it all the time. *Just evac the R12 in his
machine, change the charge valves, and fill it with R134.
I said go ahead, and had cold air for 3 years before the compressor
quit. *Probably not even related to the R134, as GM compressors are
crap and that one lasting 12 years was a record for me.

--Vic

The point is that R12 and R22 are no longer used in new equipment. In
fact, it is hard to buy R12. Either R22 or R12 used to be used as a
parts cleaner but is no longer. Both of them were used to "inflate"
styrofoam but no longer, so the amount of these going into the air is
tiny compared to what it used to be.
I happen to have a full cylinder of R12 in the lab I am keeping for
"something".
nom is simply clueless about anything techno or "sciencey"

Another physicist not on the AGW payroll;
 

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
On Dec 23, 2:58 pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:28:36 -0500, Jim wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:40:11 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote:

nom needs to learn some technology and chemistry. R12 and R22 were
the "bad" CFCs whereas the new CFCs do not cause ozone degradation.
We no longer use R12 and R22.

Most none-automobile HVAC, large and small, including industrial
chillers and kitchen fridges, still use R22.
It'll be 10 more years before R22 won't be produced.
http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/phas...2phaseout.html

--Vic

The phase out starts in 2010, as I understand it. No new products will
be built that use R22. I wonder if that includes repair parts for
existing products?

From what I understand recycled R22 can still be used in existing
equipment even after 2020 - just no new R22 produced.
I looked into this some time ago when the compressor on my fridge
started acting up. Found that those were commonly charged with R12
and these are millions of pounds of R12 still circulating in kitchen
units.
It's confusing, and it's even hard to get straight answers from HVAC
guys. Different HVAC guy, different answer.
I didn't get deep into it. I suspect it'll go the same way as car
R12, except on a slower timetable - as substitutes come along they'll
transition over. Expense will guide the transition.
This gives a glimpse of the disagreements among HVAC
pros.http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=202076&page=1

Includes some interesting - to me - comments about chlorine in pools
destroying the ozone. Never heard that one.
But I don't know how valid that is.
I'm sure the climate scientists here know - that's for sure.
Of course the answer will depend on what Al Gore or James Inhofe
whispers in their ear.
BTW, when the R12 system on my '90 Corsica needed a charge
my long-time mech said he'd convert it and charge it with R134 for
$120. R12 prices were sky high.
I'd heard in pop talk that to convert you need a new compressor,
hoses, evap, etc and be lucky to come out of it at $7-900.
He said, nah, he does it all the time. Just evac the R12 in his
machine, change the charge valves, and fill it with R134.
I said go ahead, and had cold air for 3 years before the compressor
quit. Probably not even related to the R134, as GM compressors are
crap and that one lasting 12 years was a record for me.

--Vic

The point is that R12 and R22 are no longer used in new equipment. In
fact, it is hard to buy R12. Either R22 or R12 used to be used as a
parts cleaner but is no longer. Both of them were used to "inflate"
styrofoam but no longer, so the amount of these going into the air is
tiny compared to what it used to be.
I happen to have a full cylinder of R12 in the lab I am keeping for
"something".
nom is simply clueless about anything techno or "sciencey"


Frog is clueless about what actually causes environmental damage. You're
"keeping" it for "something" instead of giving a damn about your grandkids.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Another physicist not on the AGW payroll;
 

On Dec 23, 4:51*pm, Frogwatch wrote:
On Dec 23, 2:58*pm, Vic Smith wrote:





On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:28:36 -0500, Jim wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:40:11 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote:

nom needs to learn some technology and chemistry. *R12 and R22 were
the "bad" CFCs whereas the new CFCs do not cause ozone degradation.
We no longer use R12 and R22.

Most none-automobile HVAC, large and small, including industrial
chillers and kitchen fridges, still use R22.
It'll be 10 more years before R22 won't be produced.
http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/phas...2phaseout.html

--Vic

The phase out starts in 2010, as I understand it. No new products will
be built that use R22. I wonder if that includes repair parts for
existing * products?

From what I understand recycled R22 can still be used in existing
equipment even after 2020 - just no new R22 produced.
I looked into this some time ago when the compressor on my fridge
started acting up. *Found that those were commonly charged with R12
and these are millions of pounds of R12 still circulating in kitchen
units.
It's confusing, and it's even hard to get straight answers from HVAC
guys. *Different HVAC guy, different answer.
I didn't get deep into it. *I suspect it'll go the same way as car
R12, except on a slower timetable - as substitutes come along they'll
transition over. *Expense will guide the transition. *
This gives a glimpse of the disagreements among HVAC pros.http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=202076&page=1

Includes some interesting - to me - comments about chlorine in pools
destroying the ozone. *Never heard that one.
But I don't know how valid that is.
I'm sure the climate scientists here know - that's for sure.
Of course the answer will depend on what Al Gore or James Inhofe
whispers in their ear.
BTW, when the R12 system on my '90 Corsica needed a charge
my long-time mech said he'd convert it and charge it with R134 for
$120. *R12 prices were sky high.
I'd heard in pop talk that to convert you need a new compressor,
hoses, evap, etc and be lucky to come out of it at $7-900.
He said, nah, he does it all the time. *Just evac the R12 in his
machine, change the charge valves, and fill it with R134.
I said go ahead, and had cold air for 3 years before the compressor
quit. *Probably not even related to the R134, as GM compressors are
crap and that one lasting 12 years was a record for me.

--Vic

The point is that R12 and R22 are no longer used in new equipment. *In
fact, it is hard to buy R12. *Either R22 or R12 used to be used as a
parts cleaner but is no longer. *Both of them were used to "inflate"
styrofoam but no longer, so the amount of these going into the air is
tiny compared to what it used to be.
I happen to have a full cylinder of R12 in the lab I am keeping for
"something".
nom is simply clueless about anything techno or "sciencey"

We used to use R12 as a PC board cleaner when a newly soldered board
came out of the wave soldering machine. It cleaned the flux and crap
off the board very efficiently. We haven't been able to buy drums of
it in at least 15 years. Went to a water-soluble flux long ago.

Another physicist not on the AGW payroll;
 

On Dec 23, 8:20*pm, Jack wrote:
On Dec 23, 4:51*pm, Frogwatch wrote:



On Dec 23, 2:58*pm, Vic Smith wrote:

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:28:36 -0500, Jim wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:40:11 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote:

nom needs to learn some technology and chemistry. *R12 and R22 were
the "bad" CFCs whereas the new CFCs do not cause ozone degradation.

Another physicist not on the AGW payroll;
 

On 12/23/09 9:46 PM, Frogwatch wrote:
On Dec 23, 8:20 pm, wrote:
On Dec 23, 4:51 pm, wrote:



On Dec 23, 2:58 pm, Vic wrote:

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:28:36 -0500, wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:40:11 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote:

nom needs to learn some technology and chemistry. R12 and R22 were
the "bad" CFCs whereas the new CFCs do not cause ozone degradation.
We no longer use R12 and R22.

Most none-automobile HVAC, large and small, including industrial
chillers and kitchen fridges, still use R22.
It'll be 10 more years before R22 won't be produced.
http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/phas...2phaseout.html

--Vic

The phase out starts in 2010, as I understand it. No new products will
be built that use R22. I wonder if that includes repair parts for
existing products?

From what I understand recycled R22 can still be used in existing
equipment even after 2020 - just no new R22 produced.
I looked into this some time ago when the compressor on my fridge
started acting up. Found that those were commonly charged with R12
and these are millions of pounds of R12 still circulating in kitchen
units.
It's confusing, and it's even hard to get straight answers from HVAC
guys. Different HVAC guy, different answer.
I didn't get deep into it. I suspect it'll go the same way as car
R12, except on a slower timetable - as substitutes come along they'll
transition over. Expense will guide the transition.
This gives a glimpse of the disagreements among HVAC pros.http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=202076&page=1

Includes some interesting - to me - comments about chlorine in pools
destroying the ozone. Never heard that one.
But I don't know how valid that is.
I'm sure the climate scientists here know - that's for sure.
Of course the answer will depend on what Al Gore or James Inhofe
whispers in their ear.
BTW, when the R12 system on my '90 Corsica needed a charge
my long-time mech said he'd convert it and charge it with R134 for
$120. R12 prices were sky high.
I'd heard in pop talk that to convert you need a new compressor,
hoses, evap, etc and be lucky to come out of it at $7-900.
He said, nah, he does it all the time. Just evac the R12 in his
machine, change the charge valves, and fill it with R134.
I said go ahead, and had cold air for 3 years before the compressor
quit. Probably not even related to the R134, as GM compressors are
crap and that one lasting 12 years was a record for me.

--Vic

The point is that R12 and R22 are no longer used in new equipment. In
fact, it is hard to buy R12. Either R22 or R12 used to be used as a
parts cleaner but is no longer. Both of them were used to "inflate"
styrofoam but no longer, so the amount of these going into the air is
tiny compared to what it used to be.
I happen to have a full cylinder of R12 in the lab I am keeping for
"something".
nom is simply clueless about anything techno or "sciencey"

We used to use R12 as a PC board cleaner when a newly soldered board
came out of the wave soldering machine. It cleaned the flux and crap
off the board very efficiently. We haven't been able to buy drums of
it in at least 15 years. Went to a water-soluble flux long ago.

And what would nom have me do with this cylinder of freon? What about
the 28 lbs of potassium cyanide (I only wanted 28 grams). I think I
am more capable of handling this stuff than the county waste people.

Well...you could send the cyanide around to your right-wing buds and do
the world a great favor.

Another physicist not on the AGW payroll;
 

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
On Dec 23, 8:20 pm, Jack wrote:
On Dec 23, 4:51 pm, Frogwatch wrote:



On Dec 23, 2:58 pm, Vic Smith wrote:

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:28:36 -0500, Jim wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:40:11 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote:

nom needs to learn some technology and chemistry. R12 and R22 were
the "bad" CFCs whereas the new CFCs do not cause ozone
degradation.
We no longer use R12 and R22.

Most none-automobile HVAC, large and small, including industrial
chillers and kitchen fridges, still use R22.
It'll be 10 more years before R22 won't be produced.
http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/phas...2phaseout.html

--Vic

The phase out starts in 2010, as I understand it. No new products
will
be built that use R22. I wonder if that includes repair parts for
existing products?

From what I understand recycled R22 can still be used in existing
equipment even after 2020 - just no new R22 produced.
I looked into this some time ago when the compressor on my fridge
started acting up. Found that those were commonly charged with R12
and these are millions of pounds of R12 still circulating in kitchen
units.
It's confusing, and it's even hard to get straight answers from HVAC
guys. Different HVAC guy, different answer.
I didn't get deep into it. I suspect it'll go the same way as car
R12, except on a slower timetable - as substitutes come along they'll
transition over. Expense will guide the transition.
This gives a glimpse of the disagreements among HVAC
pros.http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=202076&page=1

Includes some interesting - to me - comments about chlorine in pools
destroying the ozone. Never heard that one.
But I don't know how valid that is.
I'm sure the climate scientists here know - that's for sure.
Of course the answer will depend on what Al Gore or James Inhofe
whispers in their ear.
BTW, when the R12 system on my '90 Corsica needed a charge
my long-time mech said he'd convert it and charge it with R134 for
$120. R12 prices were sky high.
I'd heard in pop talk that to convert you need a new compressor,
hoses, evap, etc and be lucky to come out of it at $7-900.
He said, nah, he does it all the time. Just evac the R12 in his
machine, change the charge valves, and fill it with R134.
I said go ahead, and had cold air for 3 years before the compressor
quit. Probably not even related to the R134, as GM compressors are
crap and that one lasting 12 years was a record for me.

--Vic

The point is that R12 and R22 are no longer used in new equipment. In
fact, it is hard to buy R12. Either R22 or R12 used to be used as a
parts cleaner but is no longer. Both of them were used to "inflate"
styrofoam but no longer, so the amount of these going into the air is
tiny compared to what it used to be.
I happen to have a full cylinder of R12 in the lab I am keeping for
"something".
nom is simply clueless about anything techno or "sciencey"

We used to use R12 as a PC board cleaner when a newly soldered board
came out of the wave soldering machine. It cleaned the flux and crap
off the board very efficiently. We haven't been able to buy drums of
it in at least 15 years. Went to a water-soluble flux long ago.

And what would nom have me do with this cylinder of freon? What about
the 28 lbs of potassium cyanide (I only wanted 28 grams). I think I
am more capable of handling this stuff than the county waste people.


They don't "handle" it. They dispose of it properly... or they're supposed
to.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Another physicist not on the AGW payroll;
 

On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:38:13 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

"Jack" wrote in message
...
On Dec 22, 6:07 pm, "Bill McKee" wrote:
"nom=de=plume" wrote in message

...





"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
On Dec 22, 3:18 pm, "nom=de=plume" wrote:
"Frogwatch" wrote in message

...

YIKES, another physicist not funded by the anthropogenic global
warming funds:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/2...cosmic-rays-ma...
Warming caused by cosmic rays and ozone he says. Peer reviewed and
published in a real journal. He just did not get paid off in time but
you can bet he'll lose his funding.

I guess you missed the part about chlorofluorocarbons. Let me guess...
they're not created by humans.

--
Nom=de=Plume

We are not using those CFCs anymore so no need for the huge UN
bureaucracy you want if this guy is correct.

Bzzzt. Wrong answer.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...9044919AAeN4Ek

--
Nom=de=Plume

Yup, just like cutting carbon emissions in America. Ruin what we have left
of any manufacturing, while the rest of the world ignores the edict.

Tried to buy any R12 lately? You can't. It's all been virtually put
out of existence, at least here in the states.


I'm sure. And, the other sources? Did you look at the link?

What does "put out of existence" mean?

As usual, Jack the dingaling hasn't a clue. You can buy cans of R12
on ebay or locally on craigslist any day of the week. They may no
longer manufacture it or use in in manufacturing but there's still
plenty of it around.