wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 14:01:23 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 12:52:52 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

What if it's not criminal? What if it's criminal, but can't be
prosecuted
for various techincal reasons? $250K is nothing. OIC... buy more
unaffordable insurance is the answer! NOT


You are going to pay one way or the other as long as mal-practice is
just another insurance item.
There is no incentive to stop bad doctors, they just let them continue
screwing up and passing the cost on to the public.
People like you who think a quarter of a million is not just
compensation are just increasing the size of the problem.

The reality is there is no way to compensate someone for mal-practice.
Lawyers invented this cash payout model, just because they get a third
to half of the money.
Sweet deal. Don't stop bad doctors, cash in on them.


Sorry, but tort reform and caps on compensation for loss are small items
in
the scheme of healthcare reform. How about no pre-existing conditions?
How
about removing the anti-trust exemptions? How about ensuring competition
in
the ins. field? Those are the big items.


You miss the point. As long as there is a big fat tort pie out there
to be had and nobody will address incompetent doctors it is a huge
problem. Everyone acts like a fat judgement will protect them from a
bad doctor. That is lunacy unless you are just planning on getting
hurt for the money. I say dump the whole thing. You can only go after
real measurable financial damages and the doctor pays, not the
insurance company. Let them go bankrupt for a change. Do it in
criminal court where the law has some teeth.

What about pain and suffering? And, again, what if there's no criminal
behavior that can be determined? Then what?

Pain and suffering are just something invented by lawyers to pad their
bankroll.
If I cause someone pain and suffering by punching them in the nose I
go to jail

I agree that if someone changes insurance, they should get a break on
pre-esisting conditions (perhaps bringing some money along from the
company they have been paying into) but if this is someone who made
the conscious choice NOT to buy insurance, then they get sick and
suddenly want it ... fkm. You spun the wheel and took your chances.
Sell all of that "stuff" you needed more than insurance.

Pre-existing conditions according to whom.. the ins. companies? They
consider rape a pre-existing condition.

The point is if you didn't buy insurance when you were healthy, just
to save some money, tough.
I would agree to a mandatory coverage law. You have to buy insurance.

It's not quite so simple as fkm. They show up the emergency room. Should
we
let them die after we quiz them about their ins. card?

It is like someone who chose not to buy collision insurance then wants
it after they totaled their car.

Not really. Not even the same scale....

Same principle tho

Pre-existing condition guarantees will have to come with a mandatory
insurance law.

As for the other business issues, state lines, anti trust etc, much
ado about nothing as far as I see. Just open it up and let them go at
each other in a 50 state marketplace. Unfortunately it is the
insurance companies who prefer the current 50 separate company model..

Then, you're not looking at the cost factors of those things, esp.
compared
to the items you mentioned.

The biggest cost factor, the actual care, is being ignored by
everyone.


Perhaps, that's certainly a big number. Something like 70% of docs want a
public option or single payer. They're just as sick of the paperwork as
everyone else.

--
Nom=de=Plume

On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 21:10:06 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 14:01:23 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 12:52:52 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

What if it's not criminal? What if it's criminal, but can't be
prosecuted
for various techincal reasons? $250K is nothing. OIC... buy more
unaffordable insurance is the answer! NOT


You are going to pay one way or the other as long as mal-practice is
just another insurance item.
There is no incentive to stop bad doctors, they just let them continue
screwing up and passing the cost on to the public.
People like you who think a quarter of a million is not just
compensation are just increasing the size of the problem.

The reality is there is no way to compensate someone for mal-practice.
Lawyers invented this cash payout model, just because they get a third
to half of the money.
Sweet deal. Don't stop bad doctors, cash in on them.


Sorry, but tort reform and caps on compensation for loss are small items
in
the scheme of healthcare reform. How about no pre-existing conditions?
How
about removing the anti-trust exemptions? How about ensuring competition
in
the ins. field? Those are the big items.


You miss the point. As long as there is a big fat tort pie out there
to be had and nobody will address incompetent doctors it is a huge
problem. Everyone acts like a fat judgement will protect them from a
bad doctor. That is lunacy unless you are just planning on getting
hurt for the money. I say dump the whole thing. You can only go after
real measurable financial damages and the doctor pays, not the
insurance company. Let them go bankrupt for a change. Do it in
criminal court where the law has some teeth.

What about pain and suffering? And, again, what if there's no criminal
behavior that can be determined? Then what?

Pain and suffering are just something invented by lawyers to pad their
bankroll.
If I cause someone pain and suffering by punching them in the nose I
go to jail

I agree that if someone changes insurance, they should get a break on
pre-esisting conditions (perhaps bringing some money along from the
company they have been paying into) but if this is someone who made
the conscious choice NOT to buy insurance, then they get sick and
suddenly want it ... fkm. You spun the wheel and took your chances.
Sell all of that "stuff" you needed more than insurance.

Pre-existing conditions according to whom.. the ins. companies? They
consider rape a pre-existing condition.

The point is if you didn't buy insurance when you were healthy, just
to save some money, tough.
I would agree to a mandatory coverage law. You have to buy insurance.

It's not quite so simple as fkm. They show up the emergency room. Should
we
let them die after we quiz them about their ins. card?

It is like someone who chose not to buy collision insurance then wants
it after they totaled their car.

Not really. Not even the same scale....

Same principle tho

Pre-existing condition guarantees will have to come with a mandatory
insurance law.

As for the other business issues, state lines, anti trust etc, much
ado about nothing as far as I see. Just open it up and let them go at
each other in a 50 state marketplace. Unfortunately it is the
insurance companies who prefer the current 50 separate company model..

Then, you're not looking at the cost factors of those things, esp.
compared
to the items you mentioned.

The biggest cost factor, the actual care, is being ignored by
everyone.


Perhaps, that's certainly a big number. Something like 70% of docs want a
public option or single payer. They're just as sick of the paperwork as
everyone else.

Don't talk to them about Medicare. The docs I know as friends think
It's just as bad as dealing with the insurance companies.

On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 01:57:12 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 22:21:25 -0700, jps wrote:

Perhaps, that's certainly a big number. Something like 70% of docs want a
public option or single payer. They're just as sick of the paperwork as
everyone else.

Don't talk to them about Medicare. The docs I know as friends think
It's just as bad as dealing with the insurance companies.


I have been away from that part long enough not to know what is going
on now but my ex (that I am still on speaking terms with) was a
hospital administrator for most of her life and she says the same
thing. Medicare is very hard to deal with and very much "slow pay" for
the provider.
I wonder how that gets padded on to your bill. It is certainly a cost
to the provider and all costs are passed on one way or another.

She is now working at the DC Medical society. I will talk to her and
get their spin.
She is also the former commander of one of the DC area USCGA
flotillas.

I'm sure that's true.

I know there's a pile of money available through the stimulus program
to develop new methods of care delivery and processing of data.

There's got to be some efficiencies to be realized by applying best
practices from other industries.

We have a HMO in Seattle that's been around forever. Used to be
feared as not willing to spend on patients. It's turned out to be one
of the most efficient, effective, patient-lauded organizations in the
country. It's held out as a model and may well be the prototype for
better run organizations delivering more effective, reasonably priced
care.

On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 23:37:00 -0700, jps wrote:

On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 01:57:12 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 22:21:25 -0700, jps wrote:

Perhaps, that's certainly a big number. Something like 70% of docs want a
public option or single payer. They're just as sick of the paperwork as
everyone else.

Don't talk to them about Medicare. The docs I know as friends think
It's just as bad as dealing with the insurance companies.


I have been away from that part long enough not to know what is going
on now but my ex (that I am still on speaking terms with) was a
hospital administrator for most of her life and she says the same
thing. Medicare is very hard to deal with and very much "slow pay" for
the provider.
I wonder how that gets padded on to your bill. It is certainly a cost
to the provider and all costs are passed on one way or another.

She is now working at the DC Medical society. I will talk to her and
get their spin.
She is also the former commander of one of the DC area USCGA
flotillas.

I'm sure that's true.

I know there's a pile of money available through the stimulus program
to develop new methods of care delivery and processing of data.

There's got to be some efficiencies to be realized by applying best
practices from other industries.

We have a HMO in Seattle that's been around forever. Used to be
feared as not willing to spend on patients. It's turned out to be one
of the most efficient, effective, patient-lauded organizations in the
country. It's held out as a model and may well be the prototype for
better run organizations delivering more effective, reasonably priced
care.

That's all ass-backwards. There are well-proven "prototypes" all over
the civilized world that deliver better health care at much less cost
- for all.
And they are all virtual single payer, non-profit systems.
The problem is viewing health care as a business.
It's a calling; it's an occupation. You can make a good living.
But it's not a business.
All we're doing with it here is hampering real business.
You know, like making products, building things, repairing things,
providing non-health related services.
And I don't mean Wall Street financial paper con games.
Until that's understood by all, it's going to be a f**king mess and
just get worse.
It's really disappointing that the for profit insurance companies and
health care companies and their political cash-gathering cronies have
pulled the wool over the eyes of so many Americans.
Virtually every other modern country is beating our ass.
BTW, here's some perspective.
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com...ealth-care.php

and

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...in_health.html

Note from the above link about Medicare admin costs,
"Nor does it count most of Medicare's billing, which is outsourced --
and this might surprise people -- to private insurers like Blue Cross
Blue Shield and listed under vendor services rather than program
administration."

Wasn't aware of that.
So all the bitching about Medicare billing can as easily be laid off
on the private insurance industry by those who want to.
And now you know that the private health insurance companies are also
sucking blood from Medicare, which is covered with the private ticks.
Reminds me that the Army can't even cook for itself.
Have to hire Haliburton to do that. $150k slop cooks.
That's besides the backwoods $150k "electricians" they hire to zap
our boys in their showers.
Also brings to mind some of what I read about the work done after
Katrina.
$100k of taxpayer money to the connected general contractor to do the
work.
He gives $80k to the connected sub-contractor to do the work.
Sub gives $60k to the connected sub-sub-contractor to do the work.
Sub-sub pays out $40k in min wages to illegals for a half-assed job.
Multiply it all many times.
The worst of government and free enterprise all wrapped up in one big
ball. Corruption everywhere, and a total cluster****.
I'm ashamed of the leadership in this country.
And I don't see no change yet. Geithner. Summers. Goldman-Sachs.
Just to name a few.
The usual suspects. And business as usual.
If this health care bill doesn't have a strong public option, all hell
is going to break loose for the Dems. Just my guess.
Now, on the bright side, I'll continue to look into moving to Florida,
getting a boat, and do some fishing.

--Vic

On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 10:27:23 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 23:37:00 -0700, jps wrote:

On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 01:57:12 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 22:21:25 -0700, jps wrote:

Perhaps, that's certainly a big number. Something like 70% of docs want a
public option or single payer. They're just as sick of the paperwork as
everyone else.

Don't talk to them about Medicare. The docs I know as friends think
It's just as bad as dealing with the insurance companies.


I have been away from that part long enough not to know what is going
on now but my ex (that I am still on speaking terms with) was a
hospital administrator for most of her life and she says the same
thing. Medicare is very hard to deal with and very much "slow pay" for
the provider.
I wonder how that gets padded on to your bill. It is certainly a cost
to the provider and all costs are passed on one way or another.

She is now working at the DC Medical society. I will talk to her and
get their spin.
She is also the former commander of one of the DC area USCGA
flotillas.

I'm sure that's true.

I know there's a pile of money available through the stimulus program
to develop new methods of care delivery and processing of data.

There's got to be some efficiencies to be realized by applying best
practices from other industries.

We have a HMO in Seattle that's been around forever. Used to be
feared as not willing to spend on patients. It's turned out to be one
of the most efficient, effective, patient-lauded organizations in the
country. It's held out as a model and may well be the prototype for
better run organizations delivering more effective, reasonably priced
care.

That's all ass-backwards. There are well-proven "prototypes" all over
the civilized world that deliver better health care at much less cost
- for all.

They're not in the US from what I can tell.

And they are all virtual single payer, non-profit systems.
The problem is viewing health care as a business.

Every organization that uses money to exist can benefit from
efficiencies found in business. Non-profits do it all the time.

It's a calling; it's an occupation. You can make a good living.
But it's not a business.

Doctors and nurses and administrators all have to pay their bills. The
interest in making money has thwarted the "calling." They know they
can make oodles more money by specialiizing. There are so few GPs
coming out of school it's a disaster. No one wants to go through
school, residency to make a ****ty living. Might as well be a
teacher.

All we're doing with it here is hampering real business.
You know, like making products, building things, repairing things,
providing non-health related services.

Agreed.

And I don't mean Wall Street financial paper con games.
Until that's understood by all, it's going to be a f**king mess and
just get worse.
It's really disappointing that the for profit insurance companies and
health care companies and their political cash-gathering cronies have
pulled the wool over the eyes of so many Americans.
Virtually every other modern country is beating our ass.
BTW, here's some perspective.
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com...ealth-care.php

and

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...in_health.html

Note from the above link about Medicare admin costs,
"Nor does it count most of Medicare's billing, which is outsourced --
and this might surprise people -- to private insurers like Blue Cross
Blue Shield and listed under vendor services rather than program
administration."

Wasn't aware of that.
So all the bitching about Medicare billing can as easily be laid off
on the private insurance industry by those who want to.

It still represents overhead and a cost of providing care. That's why
the gov't is offering stimulus money to those who can devise systems
that do it more efficiently.

And now you know that the private health insurance companies are also
sucking blood from Medicare, which is covered with the private ticks.
Reminds me that the Army can't even cook for itself.
Have to hire Haliburton to do that. $150k slop cooks.
That's besides the backwoods $150k "electricians" they hire to zap
our boys in their showers.
Also brings to mind some of what I read about the work done after
Katrina.
$100k of taxpayer money to the connected general contractor to do the
work.
He gives $80k to the connected sub-contractor to do the work.
Sub gives $60k to the connected sub-sub-contractor to do the work.
Sub-sub pays out $40k in min wages to illegals for a half-assed job.
Multiply it all many times.
The worst of government and free enterprise all wrapped up in one big
ball. Corruption everywhere, and a total cluster****.
I'm ashamed of the leadership in this country.
And I don't see no change yet. Geithner. Summers. Goldman-Sachs.
Just to name a few.
The usual suspects. And business as usual.
If this health care bill doesn't have a strong public option, all hell
is going to break loose for the Dems. Just my guess.
Now, on the bright side, I'll continue to look into moving to Florida,
getting a boat, and do some fishing.

--Vic

I understand your frustration. I own a business that's saddled with
the cost of providing health care coverage. It's been going up
between 10 and 15%/year for the last ten years.

I'm looking at going to that HMO I cited as a way to keep our costs at
a level where we can still manage to provide the benefit. It's an
extraordinary % of overhead. I brought it up six years ago at a
dinner with a local state Rep. They were aware but displayed a tin
ear.

On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 09:51:03 -0700, jps wrote:



They're not in the US from what I can tell.

Of course not. That's why you're looking in the wrong place.
If you try to reinvent a wheel using U.S. models, it will be square.

And they are all virtual single payer, non-profit systems.
The problem is viewing health care as a business.

Every organization that uses money to exist can benefit from
efficiencies found in business. Non-profits do it all the time.

Should have said for profit business. Doesn't work.
That's why we're here, and the rest of the modern world covers
everybody, with much better results and much less cost.
That cat is out of the bag.

It's a calling; it's an occupation. You can make a good living.
But it's not a business.

Doctors and nurses and administrators all have to pay their bills. The
interest in making money has thwarted the "calling." They know they
can make oodles more money by specialiizing. There are so few GPs
coming out of school it's a disaster. No one wants to go through
school, residency to make a ****ty living. Might as well be a
teacher.

I don't see docs driving Chevys. You don't really think docs make a
****ty living, do you?
http://www.studentdoc.com/family-practice-salary.html

Average of $204k for GP's.
What's that, 98th percentile or thereabouts?


Wasn't aware of that.
So all the bitching about Medicare billing can as easily be laid off
on the private insurance industry by those who want to.

It still represents overhead and a cost of providing care. That's why
the gov't is offering stimulus money to those who can devise systems
that do it more efficiently.

There's always overhead. My point was that Medicare billing is mostly
done by the private sector.
More taxpayer funded socialism to the for-profit private sector.

I understand your frustration. I own a business that's saddled with
the cost of providing health care coverage. It's been going up
between 10 and 15%/year for the last ten years.

Don't worry about me, I handle frustration well, and can afford the
insurance. I don't anticipate any problems, though it's possible.
It's your business that's getting ****ed.

--Vic

On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 21:57:28 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 10:27:23 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

Note from the above link about Medicare admin costs,
"Nor does it count most of Medicare's billing, which is outsourced --
and this might surprise people -- to private insurers like Blue Cross
Blue Shield and listed under vendor services rather than program
administration."

Wasn't aware of that.
So all the bitching about Medicare billing can as easily be laid off
on the private insurance industry by those who want to.
And now you know that the private health insurance companies are also
sucking blood from Medicare, which is covered with the private ticks.


It also debunks that idea that medicare's administrative costs are
only 5% doesn't it?

No, according to the link - you cut it, you can find it - the usual
claim is 2%. But I've always heard 3%.
Adding in what they pay the private insurance companies doing the
billing brings them to 5-6%.
Forget about trying to beat that.
You can't.
Besides, that article has some other gems, such as the there's no
evidence the private insurers do any better with fraud than does
Medicare.
I'm done arguing about this. All the facts are out there, including
the fact that many modern countries beat our ass in health care.
How it's done is well known to anybody who looks.
Cat is out of the bag.
I can afford insurance and keep my house.
Let the whiners who suffer medical bankruptcy, die because they have
no health care, worry about their kids' ailments, and the whining
businessmen who have their profits deeply cut into and who can't
compete because of health care costs worry about it.
No skin off our nose, eh?
Me and you will do just fine.

--Vic

On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 20:55:45 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

All the facts are out there, including
the fact that many modern countries beat our ass in health care.

In terms of what?

On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 23:14:48 -0400, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 20:55:45 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

All the facts are out there, including
the fact that many modern countries beat our ass in health care.

In terms of what?

hehe.

--Vic

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 20:55:45 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 21:57:28 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 10:27:23 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

Note from the above link about Medicare admin costs,
"Nor does it count most of Medicare's billing, which is outsourced --
and this might surprise people -- to private insurers like Blue Cross
Blue Shield and listed under vendor services rather than program
administration."

Wasn't aware of that.
So all the bitching about Medicare billing can as easily be laid off
on the private insurance industry by those who want to.
And now you know that the private health insurance companies are also
sucking blood from Medicare, which is covered with the private ticks.


It also debunks that idea that medicare's administrative costs are
only 5% doesn't it?

No, according to the link - you cut it, you can find it - the usual
claim is 2%. But I've always heard 3%.
Adding in what they pay the private insurance companies doing the
billing brings them to 5-6%.
Forget about trying to beat that.
You can't.
Besides, that article has some other gems, such as the there's no
evidence the private insurers do any better with fraud than does
Medicare.
I'm done arguing about this. All the facts are out there, including
the fact that many modern countries beat our ass in health care.
How it's done is well known to anybody who looks.
Cat is out of the bag.
I can afford insurance and keep my house.
Let the whiners who suffer medical bankruptcy, die because they have
no health care, worry about their kids' ailments, and the whining
businessmen who have their profits deeply cut into and who can't
compete because of health care costs worry about it.
No skin off our nose, eh?
Me and you will do just fine.


Did you see 60 Minutes tonight? They are talking about billions in
medicare fraud.



Yup.. $60B I think was the number. So, if we could fix some of that, we
could save a ton o money.

--
Nom=de=Plume