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Bill McKee wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message ... Bill McKee wrote: "Jeff" wrote in message But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine was running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough to put in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a sailboat. (And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with the sail luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other sailboats!) Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said for any motor driven boat. Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up? I think its pretty obvious that no powerboater would want to be underway with engine that needs a few minutes before it can be trusted, but in fact many sailboats are in precisely that situation every time they return to port. Example: On my previous boat, I would generally power only within a few hundred yards of the slip, both leaving and returning. But the engine, an elderly Westerbeke, needed about 5 minutes before it could be put in gear without stalling. This meant that anytime time I came back from a long sail with a cold engine, I had to sail through a busy harbor with an engine running that was not available for use. Someone stated Americas Cup boats could run a generator during a race. Races are controlled areas, and AC boats do not have props as far as I know. So, are you claiming that running a genset really does make a sailboat a powerboat??? Plus there is no right of way in maritime law. Not strictly true, but since its clear you've never actually read the rules, we'll forgive you for that. And you should note that no one, other than the unnamed straw man, has claimed "right of way;" I only mentioned obligations. And that is at the heart of this. A Sailboat is still a Sailboat if "propelling machinery ... is not being used", but it still has an obligation to avoid a collision. A Sailboat is still a Sailboat if "propelling machinery ... is not being used", The motor is part of the propelling machinery. So the machinery is being used. Nope. You could also claim that the motor, even not started, is used as as ballast, so its a powerboat. But its still pretty lame. |
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"Jeff" wrote in message
... Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 20:40:16 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:29:14 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days. Taught by whom? Not out here, as far as I know. Training schools approved and monitored by USCG. That's too bad. It's not been my experience out here, but I suppose it happens. Actually it might be a good thing in terms of educating the chowder heads who go around motoring with their mainsail up, and trying to press for right of way. My understanding is that the approved schools really aren't monitored, certainly not closely. They typically get the curriculum approved, and that's about it beside submitting the completed tests. You're talking about regular sailing schools or license classes (e.g., OUPV, 100GT)? License classes. Several different instructors have told me that admiralty courts have ruled that if propulsion is on and available, then the boat can not be considered under sail for purposes of collision avoidance. There's a (slightly) subtle point here. If you had power available and did not use it to avoid a collision, that's your bad. On the other hand, you can't look at a sailboat and say "He looks like a chowderhead, I'll bet he has his motor running" and treat him as a powerboat. That would be my take on it. I can't comment on what an admiralty court would or wouldn't do. During regular sailing classes (not licensing classes for which I'm not qualified to teach), I tell them the law (engine engaged) and the practical side (act like it is - these boats don't need to charge batteries while underway) and to use all available means to avoid a collision. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m... "Capt. JG" wrote in message ons... "Bill McKee" wrote in message m... "Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... "Bill McKee" wrote in message ... "Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... "Bill McKee" wrote in message m... "Edgar" wrote in message ... "Jeff" wrote in message ... I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over 10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak sales are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling off last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last year. So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are at risk. Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting fla****er, often only a few feet deep. I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots. Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term. And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker entering SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong. Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power, but I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take a chance.... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com You get in a crash and and the motor is running and claim you were not in gear, and are a sailboat, you are going to lose! As long as the motor is on, your are technically a power boat. You could reach over and put it in gear. Same as if just before the crash you pop it into neutral. If an anchored powerboat is considered a powerboat when anchored, you think the court will let you get away claiming under sail status when the engine is running? No dispute from me, except that "technically" you're not a powerboat, unless the engine is engaged in driving the boat. Not sure what the anchor comment has to do with it, since you're not (obviously) underway. If you're unclear about what the rules actually say on the matter, look it up. I'm certain that you're right, however, when it comes to how a court would react. That's a seperate question, which is why I consider myself a powerboat if I have the engine on. It's not technically accurate, but it is accurate in practice. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com The motor on, and I bet the law would say power boat. As to day shapes, when was the last time you saw a recreational boater flying them. An anchored power boat is still a power boat in the laws eyes, and you could start the engine and drive out of the way. Same reason the court is going to find against a sailboater with motor running. You could engage motor an drive boat. I have no idea what the court would say. I suspect there would a lot of arguments for both sides, but the law itself is pretty clear. The vessel must be actually propelled. I've only seen one sailboat with the dayshape in 30 yrs of sailing on the bay. It was way over 12 meters. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com The rule is under power, not propelled. Nope. Look it up. It's propelled. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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"Jeff" wrote in message
... Bill McKee wrote: "Jeff" wrote in message But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine was running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough to put in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a sailboat. (And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with the sail luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other sailboats!) Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said for any motor driven boat. Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up? I think its pretty obvious that no powerboater would want to be underway with engine that needs a few minutes before it can be trusted, but in fact many sailboats are in precisely that situation every time they return to port. Example: On my previous boat, I would generally power only within a few hundred yards of the slip, both leaving and returning. But the engine, an elderly Westerbeke, needed about 5 minutes before it could be put in gear without stalling. This meant that anytime time I came back from a long sail with a cold engine, I had to sail through a busy harbor with an engine running that was not available for use. I'm wondering if there was something wrong with it? Diesels don't really need much of a warm up. They like being under load and warm up when under load. I don't warm up my Westerbeke (13). If I'm going to leave the slip, I start, put it in reverse after about 30 seconds, perhaps a minute, and leave. It's never stalled yet. And you should note that no one, other than the unnamed straw man, has claimed "right of way;" I only mentioned obligations. And that is at the heart of this. A Sailboat is still a Sailboat if "propelling machinery ... is not being used", but it still has an obligation to avoid a collision. Which is the whole point... avoiding a collision. Thanks! Doesn't matter what anyone calls it... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:46:42 -0400, Jeff wrote: So, are you claiming that running a genset really does make a sailboat a powerboat??? A genset is not a propulsion engine obviously. The issue here is not so much with other boats recognizing who is legally under sail, but rather with the behavior of the sail boat. If the skipper of a sailboat with the propulsion engine running continues to behave as the stand-on vessel when otherwise burdened, he is breaking the rules and creating a dangerous situation. This is actually quite logical when you think about it. Otherwise a give-way sailboat under power could simply shift into neutral and reclaim the right-of-way at the last minute. Exactly. If I have my engine on (don't own a genset), I consider myself a powerboat and act accordingly. No confusion is possible from other boats. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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Capt. JG wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message ... Example: On my previous boat, I would generally power only within a few hundred yards of the slip, both leaving and returning. But the engine, an elderly Westerbeke, needed about 5 minutes before it could be put in gear without stalling. This meant that anytime time I came back from a long sail with a cold engine, I had to sail through a busy harbor with an engine running that was not available for use. I'm wondering if there was something wrong with it? Diesels don't really need much of a warm up. They like being under load and warm up when under load. I don't warm up my Westerbeke (13). If I'm going to leave the slip, I start, put it in reverse after about 30 seconds, perhaps a minute, and leave. It's never stalled yet. All I can say is that once warmed up, it ran fine. But if I went into gear too soon, it would cough and die. It was, IIRC, a "30" based on a Mitsubishi block. My newer Yanmar 2GM20F's are much better, starting almost instantly, and ready to go in less than a minute (but I still wait 5 minutes, out of habit). I've also known Atomic 4's that had to warm up, but if you knew the engine well you could compensate with the choke. |
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"nom=de=plume" wrote in message ... "Bill McKee" wrote in message ... "nom=de=plume" wrote in message ... "Bill McKee" wrote in message ... "nom=de=plume" wrote in message ... "Bill McKee" wrote in message m... "nom=de=plume" wrote in message ... "Jim" wrote in message ... H the K wrote: On 10/18/09 9:47 PM, wrote: On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:34:54 -0400, wrote: So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are at risk. Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting fla****er, often only a few feet deep. The only difference I see is canoes can carry a bigger cooler so they may drink more beer. PFD use is spotty for both craft on our river. The real scary thing is they seem to have no respect for power boats and assume they are not only seen but will be yielded right of way. When the power boat is a PWC things can get real dicey since most PWC drivers refuse to give anyone quarter. They assume they have no wake. You're supposed to squeeze your cooler in an innertube and tow it behind your canoe or kayak. That way, the cool river water helps keep your ice from wasting away and your beer from tasting like Miller Lite. I like Miller Lite. You like Corona. Beer drinkers make fun Corona. Pacifico here... too many trips to Mexico! That and Guiness... too many trips to Ireland! -- Nom=de=Plume I rarely drink, but if in MX or a Mexican restaurant it is Negro Modelo. Dark beer is so much better. I don't like Mexican dark beer. It just doesn't have the flavor of Guiness. -- Nom=de=Plume Guiness is too dark and flavorful. Did not care for it when I traveled to the English office and everyone went to the pub. Lots of good ales, and stouts, but Guiness is not one my favorites. Best Stout I ever drank was at the Haines Brewery in Haines, AK. Did you have it warm (traditional) or chilled? I have been chastised because I prefer it cooled a bit. -- Nom=de=Plume I drank it just like the pub served it. Where was that? -- Nom=de=Plume Woking. About 20 miles outside London. They drank at the Courage Pub. Normal brew there was Courage Ale. |
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"Jeff" wrote in message
... Capt. JG wrote: "Jeff" wrote in message ... Example: On my previous boat, I would generally power only within a few hundred yards of the slip, both leaving and returning. But the engine, an elderly Westerbeke, needed about 5 minutes before it could be put in gear without stalling. This meant that anytime time I came back from a long sail with a cold engine, I had to sail through a busy harbor with an engine running that was not available for use. I'm wondering if there was something wrong with it? Diesels don't really need much of a warm up. They like being under load and warm up when under load. I don't warm up my Westerbeke (13). If I'm going to leave the slip, I start, put it in reverse after about 30 seconds, perhaps a minute, and leave. It's never stalled yet. All I can say is that once warmed up, it ran fine. But if I went into gear too soon, it would cough and die. It was, IIRC, a "30" based on a Mitsubishi block. My newer Yanmar 2GM20F's are much better, starting almost instantly, and ready to go in less than a minute (but I still wait 5 minutes, out of habit). I've also known Atomic 4's that had to warm up, but if you knew the engine well you could compensate with the choke. A4s.... I've always warmed them up. Never had to do that with my Weste. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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