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Bill McKee wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine was
running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough to put
in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a sailboat. (And
yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with the sail luffing,
insisting the he has right of way over other sailboats!)

Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said for
any motor driven boat.

Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately
leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up? I think its
pretty obvious that no powerboater would want to be underway with engine
that needs a few minutes before it can be trusted, but in fact many
sailboats are in precisely that situation every time they return to port.

Example: On my previous boat, I would generally power only within a few
hundred yards of the slip, both leaving and returning. But the engine,
an elderly Westerbeke, needed about 5 minutes before it could be put in
gear without stalling. This meant that anytime time I came back from a
long sail with a cold engine, I had to sail through a busy harbor with
an engine running that was not available for use.

Someone stated Americas Cup boats could run a
generator during a race. Races are controlled areas, and AC boats do not
have props as far as I know.

So, are you claiming that running a genset really does make a sailboat a
powerboat???

Plus there is no right of way in maritime law.

Not strictly true, but since its clear you've never actually read the
rules, we'll forgive you for that.

And you should note that no one, other than the unnamed straw man, has
claimed "right of way;" I only mentioned obligations. And that is at
the heart of this. A Sailboat is still a Sailboat if "propelling
machinery ... is not being used", but it still has an obligation to
avoid a collision.

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On 10/20/09 7:46 AM, Jeff wrote:
Bill McKee wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine
was running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough
to put in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a
sailboat. (And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with
the sail luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other
sailboats!)

Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said
for any motor driven boat.

Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately
leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up?


Actually, yes. I see it all the time.

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On 10/20/09 7:46 AM, Jeff wrote:
Bill McKee wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine
was running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough
to put in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a
sailboat. (And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with
the sail luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other
sailboats!)

Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said
for any motor driven boat.

Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately
leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up?


Actually, yes. I see it all the time.

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On 10/20/09 7:46 AM, Jeff wrote:
Bill McKee wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine
was running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough
to put in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a
sailboat. (And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with
the sail luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other
sailboats!)

Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said
for any motor driven boat.

Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately
leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up?


Actually, yes. I see it all the time.

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"Tosk" wrote in message
...
In article m,
says...

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 22:06:55 -0400, Tosk
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:34:54 -0400, Jeff wrote:

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers
wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they
are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble
convincing
my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

The only difference I see is canoes can carry a bigger cooler so they
may drink more beer. PFD use is spotty for both craft on our river.
The real scary thing is they seem to have no respect for power boats
and assume they are not only seen but will be yielded right of way.
When the power boat is a PWC things can get real dicey since most PWC
drivers refuse to give anyone quarter. They assume they have no wake.

I think the mentality of a kayaker is that they may end up in the water
so they are inherently more prepared than "casual canoe paddlers".
Also,
older or less mobile folks tend to choose to sit in a canoe rather than
kneel or sit in a kayak... My point again is that kayak paddlers are
more equipt and prepared for a swamping...

Maybe the "owners". I am just talking about the renters I see.

The owners do seem to carry around a bit of attitude and defy power
boats to encroach on their right of way, real or imagined.
When they are in the channel that can be a dangerous attitude to have.
I am glad they are prepared to get swamped. I go slow most of the time
but I am in the minority.
Wayne knows, this can be a pretty tricky river to negotiate and some
guys push it pretty hard. I am real surprised we haven't had a bad
accident.

We have the collage (shell) rowing teams practicing all winter in the
Grand
Canal over here. It's good, sheltered water and a great place for them to
practice but they haul ass with everyone looking the wrong way!
I was almost hit in the pontoon when I kicked it into neutral after
seeing a
manatee right in front of my boat. Thing was going faster than we were
when
we were in gear when my wife yelled for them to look out. Yeah, we got
the
dirty looks.
Rear view mirrors would be a good idea on those things.

My wife was learning to paddle last year. We were out in the middle of
the lake and my wife was having problems navigating through the current
and the wind so I was trying to move in to tie her on. A shell was
coming from about half way across the lake and heading toward us. I kept
yelling as they closed but the guy directing and the chase boat
(motorized) paid no attention. The skull came through and hit my wife
and kept right on going. When I confronted them at the dock later the
little asshole said something of the sort that "we have the right of
way" even though my wife was not in control of her vessel at the time.
"Besides" he said, "it's *our* lake". If there wasn't a cop in the
parking lot... Arrogant prick. The next week he cried like a baby when I
waked them with the Brockway.. Prissy little bitch, lucky I didn't swamp
'em... I hate guys who tie sweaters around their necks...

Could you try a little harder next time? And take a picture? I'd like one of
my office wall of a shell sinking, surrounded by bobbing baby yuppies. Ha!

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In article ,
says...

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Jim" wrote in message
...
H the K wrote:
On 10/18/09 9:47 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:34:54 -0400, wrote:

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a
disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers
wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think
they are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble
convincing my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

The only difference I see is canoes can carry a bigger cooler so
they
may drink more beer. PFD use is spotty for both craft on our river.
The real scary thing is they seem to have no respect for power boats
and assume they are not only seen but will be yielded right of way.
When the power boat is a PWC things can get real dicey since most
PWC
drivers refuse to give anyone quarter. They assume they have no
wake.


You're supposed to squeeze your cooler in an innertube and tow it
behind your canoe or kayak. That way, the cool river water helps keep
your ice from wasting away and your beer from tasting like Miller
Lite.


I like Miller Lite. You like Corona. Beer drinkers make fun Corona.


Pacifico here... too many trips to Mexico! That and Guiness... too many
trips to Ireland!

--
Nom=de=Plume


I rarely drink, but if in MX or a Mexican restaurant it is Negro Modelo.
Dark beer is so much better.

I don't like Mexican dark beer. It just doesn't have the flavor of
Guiness.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Guiness is too dark and flavorful. Did not care for it when I traveled to
the English office and everyone went to the pub. Lots of good ales, and
stouts, but Guiness is not one my favorites. Best Stout I ever drank was
at the Haines Brewery in Haines, AK.

Did you have it warm (traditional) or chilled? I have been chastised because
I prefer it cooled a bit.

I ran a small club decades ago and used to have a husband and wife who
came in on Sundays. I used to keep Sam Smiths in the basement outside
the cooler for them. He drank Taddy Porter, and she drank Old Pale
ale... They would buy me one each week and I would sneak it into a mug
cut in half with a cheap American Lager... ;)

Capsize Prevention
 

In article m,
says...

"Tosk" wrote in message
...
In article m,
says...

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 22:06:55 -0400, Tosk
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:34:54 -0400, Jeff wrote:

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers
wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they
are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble
convincing
my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

The only difference I see is canoes can carry a bigger cooler so they
may drink more beer. PFD use is spotty for both craft on our river.
The real scary thing is they seem to have no respect for power boats
and assume they are not only seen but will be yielded right of way.
When the power boat is a PWC things can get real dicey since most PWC
drivers refuse to give anyone quarter. They assume they have no wake.

I think the mentality of a kayaker is that they may end up in the water
so they are inherently more prepared than "casual canoe paddlers".
Also,
older or less mobile folks tend to choose to sit in a canoe rather than
kneel or sit in a kayak... My point again is that kayak paddlers are
more equipt and prepared for a swamping...

Maybe the "owners". I am just talking about the renters I see.

The owners do seem to carry around a bit of attitude and defy power
boats to encroach on their right of way, real or imagined.
When they are in the channel that can be a dangerous attitude to have.
I am glad they are prepared to get swamped. I go slow most of the time
but I am in the minority.
Wayne knows, this can be a pretty tricky river to negotiate and some
guys push it pretty hard. I am real surprised we haven't had a bad
accident.

We have the collage (shell) rowing teams practicing all winter in the
Grand
Canal over here. It's good, sheltered water and a great place for them to
practice but they haul ass with everyone looking the wrong way!
I was almost hit in the pontoon when I kicked it into neutral after
seeing a
manatee right in front of my boat. Thing was going faster than we were
when
we were in gear when my wife yelled for them to look out. Yeah, we got
the
dirty looks.
Rear view mirrors would be a good idea on those things.

My wife was learning to paddle last year. We were out in the middle of
the lake and my wife was having problems navigating through the current
and the wind so I was trying to move in to tie her on. A shell was
coming from about half way across the lake and heading toward us. I kept
yelling as they closed but the guy directing and the chase boat
(motorized) paid no attention. The skull came through and hit my wife
and kept right on going. When I confronted them at the dock later the
little asshole said something of the sort that "we have the right of
way" even though my wife was not in control of her vessel at the time.
"Besides" he said, "it's *our* lake". If there wasn't a cop in the
parking lot... Arrogant prick. The next week he cried like a baby when I
waked them with the Brockway.. Prissy little bitch, lucky I didn't swamp
'em... I hate guys who tie sweaters around their necks...

Could you try a little harder next time? And take a picture? I'd like one of
my office wall of a shell sinking, surrounded by bobbing baby yuppies. Ha!

LOL

Capsize Prevention
 

On 10/20/09 10:05 AM, Tosk wrote:
In ting.com,
says...

wrote in message
...
In ting.com,
says...

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 22:06:55 -0400, Tosk
wrote:

In ,
says...

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:34:54 -0400, wrote:

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers
wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they
are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble
convincing
my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

The only difference I see is canoes can carry a bigger cooler so they
may drink more beer. PFD use is spotty for both craft on our river.
The real scary thing is they seem to have no respect for power boats
and assume they are not only seen but will be yielded right of way.
When the power boat is a PWC things can get real dicey since most PWC
drivers refuse to give anyone quarter. They assume they have no wake.

I think the mentality of a kayaker is that they may end up in the water
so they are inherently more prepared than "casual canoe paddlers".
Also,
older or less mobile folks tend to choose to sit in a canoe rather than
kneel or sit in a kayak... My point again is that kayak paddlers are
more equipt and prepared for a swamping...

Maybe the "owners". I am just talking about the renters I see.

The owners do seem to carry around a bit of attitude and defy power
boats to encroach on their right of way, real or imagined.
When they are in the channel that can be a dangerous attitude to have.
I am glad they are prepared to get swamped. I go slow most of the time
but I am in the minority.
Wayne knows, this can be a pretty tricky river to negotiate and some
guys push it pretty hard. I am real surprised we haven't had a bad
accident.

We have the collage (shell) rowing teams practicing all winter in the
Grand
Canal over here. It's good, sheltered water and a great place for them to
practice but they haul ass with everyone looking the wrong way!
I was almost hit in the pontoon when I kicked it into neutral after
seeing a
manatee right in front of my boat. Thing was going faster than we were
when
we were in gear when my wife yelled for them to look out. Yeah, we got
the
dirty looks.
Rear view mirrors would be a good idea on those things.

My wife was learning to paddle last year. We were out in the middle of
the lake and my wife was having problems navigating through the current
and the wind so I was trying to move in to tie her on. A shell was
coming from about half way across the lake and heading toward us. I kept
yelling as they closed but the guy directing and the chase boat
(motorized) paid no attention. The skull came through and hit my wife
and kept right on going. When I confronted them at the dock later the
little asshole said something of the sort that "we have the right of
way" even though my wife was not in control of her vessel at the time.
"Besides" he said, "it's *our* lake". If there wasn't a cop in the
parking lot... Arrogant prick. The next week he cried like a baby when I
waked them with the Brockway.. Prissy little bitch, lucky I didn't swamp
'em... I hate guys who tie sweaters around their necks...

Could you try a little harder next time? And take a picture? I'd like one of
my office wall of a shell sinking, surrounded by bobbing baby yuppies. Ha!

LOL


It would make for an interesting piece of evidence at your trial.

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"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Bill McKee wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine was
running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough to put
in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a sailboat.
(And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with the sail
luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other sailboats!)

Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said for
any motor driven boat.

Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately
leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up? I think its
pretty obvious that no powerboater would want to be underway with engine
that needs a few minutes before it can be trusted, but in fact many
sailboats are in precisely that situation every time they return to port.

Example: On my previous boat, I would generally power only within a few
hundred yards of the slip, both leaving and returning. But the engine, an
elderly Westerbeke, needed about 5 minutes before it could be put in gear
without stalling. This meant that anytime time I came back from a long
sail with a cold engine, I had to sail through a busy harbor with an
engine running that was not available for use.

Someone stated Americas Cup boats could run a generator during a race.
Races are controlled areas, and AC boats do not have props as far as I
know.

So, are you claiming that running a genset really does make a sailboat a
powerboat???

Plus there is no right of way in maritime law.

Not strictly true, but since its clear you've never actually read the
rules, we'll forgive you for that.

And you should note that no one, other than the unnamed straw man, has
claimed "right of way;" I only mentioned obligations. And that is at the
heart of this. A Sailboat is still a Sailboat if "propelling machinery
... is not being used", but it still has an obligation to avoid a
collision.

A Sailboat is still a Sailboat if "propelling machinery ... is not being
used",

The motor is part of the propelling machinery. So the machinery is being
used.

Capsize Prevention
 

On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:46:42 -0400, Jeff wrote:

So, are you claiming that running a genset really does make a sailboat a
powerboat???

A genset is not a propulsion engine obviously.

The issue here is not so much with other boats recognizing who is
legally under sail, but rather with the behavior of the sail boat.
If the skipper of a sailboat with the propulsion engine running
continues to behave as the stand-on vessel when otherwise burdened, he
is breaking the rules and creating a dangerous situation. This is
actually quite logical when you think about it. Otherwise a give-way
sailboat under power could simply shift into neutral and reclaim the
right-of-way at the last minute.