Sober thoughts on health care
 

Jack wrote:
On Jul 18, 9:58 pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:55:56 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:





"Jack" wrote in message
...
Reformers' Claims Just Don't Add Up
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Friday, July 17, 2009 4:20 PM PT
• America has a health care crisis.
---------------------------------
America does not have a health care crisis.
America has a welfare crisis.
My wife pays a bit over 25% of her gross salary for our insurance.
Quite a "tax" there, huh?
But we have other income.
Her workmates make less than her, and have more people to insure.
Guess what they pay for insurance?
Nothing.
They go to the emergency room.
For everything.
Can't afford anything else.
I wonder who pays for those e-room services.
Neat system, eh?

--Vic

Sounds like you need to get a job with some benefits, and rescue your
wife from having to support you and from providing you with your own
health care.


Another compassionate, empathetic Republican.

Sober thoughts on health care
 

On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 19:40:49 -0700, Jack wrote:


Sounds like you need to get a job with some benefits, and rescue your
wife from having to support you and from providing you with your own
health care.

Yeah, but ... tying health care to business is the wrong approach, IMO.
Besides the anti-competitive costs to business in the world market, if
you get sick with a long-term illness, you are SOL. A dirty little
secret, most employee health insurance policies end when you aren't
collecting a pay check. Try paying for CORBA with just a disability
check, if you even get a disability check.

Sober thoughts on health care
 

On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 22:58:02 -0400, gfretwell wrote:


I haven't seen anything in any of the plans that will make it cheaper
for you. We are all going to have to absorb the cost of the 41 million
uninsured. There may be some savings getting them out of the ER but not
near enough to cover the expense of giving them full coverage.

Yeah, but, most countries with universal health care spend @10% GDP on
health care. We're rapidly approaching twice that. There must be some
savings somewhere.

Sober thoughts on health care
 

On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 19:11:16 -0700, jps wrote:

On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 21:24:20 -0400, H the K
wrote:

Eisboch wrote:
"Jack" wrote in message
...

Reformers' Claims Just Don't Add Up
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Friday, July 17, 2009 4:20 PM PT


• America has a health care crisis.

---------------------------------

America does not have a health care crisis.

America has a welfare crisis.

Eisboch


Spoken like a "true Republican have."
"I've got mine, screw the poor, eh?"

There's a ton of small businesses like mine that are already stressed
by the cost of providing health care. Expect there are a lots having
to drop coverage because of cost. Ours has been going up at more than
10% a year and we've had to opt for inferior coverage to what we had
originally to keep it within our means.

I suppose if you're not currently operating a business, you might be
unaware how challenging the situation is...

If the business is stressed by providing health care, why provide it?
There is no governmental mandate that you do so. The only mandate in
most states is for the provisioin of Workman's Comp. Are your
employees incapable of providing thier own? Is the compensation given
your employees inadequate for their needs? Do you pay full cost of
their insurance? It is a common practice for businesses to help
relieve the (voluntary) stress of coverage by putting part or all of
the cost of coverage on the employee, even if their coverage is a
group. Have you explored HSA's, HRA's, FSA's? Are you aware that
insurance companies compete for you business? Are you aware that
HDHP's are desgined to keep premiums low? If your insurance is a
group, is it a PPO? If you are genuinely concerned about covering
your employees, have you earnestly explored all insurance options?

(I owned a manufacturing concern for more than a decade. It wouldn't
in your best interest to complain about any naivete on my part, in
asking these questions. (And I am also a licensed insurance agent.))

--
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Sober thoughts on health care
 

On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 22:48:34 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 19:11:16 -0700, jps wrote:

On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 21:24:20 -0400, H the K
wrote:

Eisboch wrote:
"Jack" wrote in message
...

Reformers' Claims Just Don't Add Up
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Friday, July 17, 2009 4:20 PM PT


• America has a health care crisis.

---------------------------------

America does not have a health care crisis.

America has a welfare crisis.

Eisboch


Spoken like a "true Republican have."
"I've got mine, screw the poor, eh?"

There's a ton of small businesses like mine that are already stressed
by the cost of providing health care. Expect there are a lots having
to drop coverage because of cost. Ours has been going up at more than
10% a year and we've had to opt for inferior coverage to what we had
originally to keep it within our means.

I suppose if you're not currently operating a business, you might be
unaware how challenging the situation is...

If the business is stressed by providing health care, why provide it?
There is no governmental mandate that you do so. The only mandate in
most states is for the provisioin of Workman's Comp.

It's standard in our industry where I'm a small player. Large
employers provide and I compete in the same market for expert
employess.

Are your
employees incapable of providing thier own? Is the compensation given
your employees inadequate for their needs? Do you pay full cost of
their insurance? It is a common practice for businesses to help
relieve the (voluntary) stress of coverage by putting part or all of
the cost of coverage on the employee, even if their coverage is a
group.

We cover employee only and deduct for spouse and dependents. There's
no way we could cover families.

Have you explored HSA's, HRA's, FSA's?

We have an FSA in place.

Are you aware that
insurance companies compete for you business?

Yes, painfully.

Are you aware that
HDHP's are desgined to keep premiums low?

Yes, we're considering a move to one.

If your insurance is a
group, is it a PPO?

Yes, Regence.

If you are genuinely concerned about covering
your employees, have you earnestly explored all insurance options?

Abso-****ing-lutely.

(I owned a manufacturing concern for more than a decade. It wouldn't
in your best interest to complain about any naivete on my part, in
asking these questions. (And I am also a licensed insurance agent.))

When I moved my company from CA to WA we enjoyed significantly lower
premiums. CA had already started the steep climb. After double digit
hikes in rates, it has become painful.

I identified the problem to a state representative 5 years ago at a
small dinner reception. And while it was a known problem, it wasn't
the state's only problem nor high on the priority list. I expect it's
higher now.

Sober thoughts on health care
 

On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:58:58 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:55:56 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Jack" wrote in message
...

Reformers' Claims Just Don't Add Up
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Friday, July 17, 2009 4:20 PM PT


• America has a health care crisis.

---------------------------------

America does not have a health care crisis.

America has a welfare crisis.

My wife pays a bit over 25% of her gross salary for our insurance.
Quite a "tax" there, huh?
But we have other income.
Her workmates make less than her, and have more people to insure.
Guess what they pay for insurance?
Nothing.
They go to the emergency room.
For everything.
Can't afford anything else.
I wonder who pays for those e-room services.
Neat system, eh?

--Vic

Exactly. We're all taking it in the shorts for a screwed up system.

Sober thoughts on health care
 

On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 21:59:18 -0500, thunder
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 19:40:49 -0700, Jack wrote:


Sounds like you need to get a job with some benefits, and rescue your
wife from having to support you and from providing you with your own
health care.

Yeah, but ... tying health care to business is the wrong approach, IMO.
Besides the anti-competitive costs to business in the world market, if
you get sick with a long-term illness, you are SOL. A dirty little
secret, most employee health insurance policies end when you aren't
collecting a pay check. Try paying for CORBA with just a disability
check, if you even get a disability check.

I believe there is a need for a national system for situations like
this.

What I don't like about this Obamacare is that it's going to force
choices on people and that bothers me.

From what I've been reading, if your job status changes (like changing
jobs/companies, etc.) or there are benefit changes (like an increase
in co-pay), you and/or your employer are forced into the "qualified"
system rather than just pay the increased co-pay. The "qualified"
plans are run by Federal bureaucrats who are going to tell you what is
and what isn't acceptable.

Additionally, if would appear that treatments will be rationed by
"cost effectiveness". Meaning that, to use me for example, if the
Feds decide that the Retuxin treatment isn't effective because of cost
vs my age (I'll be 63 on Monday), that I'll be forced into a
different treatment that is cheaper and not as effective - but it will
cost less.

Personally, I don't want to be taking percocet for the rest of my life
because some douche bag bureaucrat decides that my treatment isn't
worth the money being spent on a costly, but very effective treatment
regime. If what I"m reading is correct, I can't even pay for the
treatment myself - that's not an option.

And you have to be suspicious of this Obamacare if Congress critters
aren't getting the same Obamacare as the average citizen.

"In the health debate, liberals sing Hari Krishnas to the "public
option" -- a new federal insurance program like Medicare -- but if
it's good enough for the middle class, then surely it's good enough
for the political class too? As it happens, more than a few Democrats
disagree.

On Tuesday, the Senate health committee voted 12-11 in favor of a
two-page amendment courtesy of Republican Tom Coburn that would
require all Members and their staffs to enroll in any new
government-run health plan. Yet all Democrats -- with the exceptions
of acting chairman Chris Dodd, Barbara Mikulski and Ted Kennedy via
proxy -- voted nay."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124786946165760369.html

That right there has got to tell you something and as I understand it,
Federal employees will get the keep their very generous plans - paid
for by the taxpayer.

It's got to say something when even Bernie Sanders wants to stay out
of the very system he is to hot to trot on. Personally, I agree with
the general consensus on this - if it's good enough for me and you,
it's good enough for them too.

Dollars to donuts, Obamacare wouldn't even make it out of comittee if
the Congress critters were forced to accept the same system as the
American citizen.

Do we need some kind of health care system for those who can't afford
it or protect them and their families? Yes - absolutely - I agree.

Do I need it or want it? Absolutely not.

Sober thoughts on health care
 

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Eisboch wrote:
"Jack" wrote in message
...

Reformers' Claims Just Don't Add Up
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Friday, July 17, 2009 4:20 PM PT


• America has a health care crisis.

---------------------------------

America does not have a health care crisis.

America has a welfare crisis.

Eisboch


Spoken like a "true Republican have."
"I've got mine, screw the poor, eh?"


You missed the point entirely, Harry.
Nobody is talking about "screwing the poor".
Those that can't afford health insurance are the reason we *have* a crisis.

Health care isn't the problem. Affording it is the problem.

Man, you are so programmed into your way of thinking that you jump to
typical and immediate conclusions.

Eisboch

Sober thoughts on health care
 

"jps" wrote in message
...

There's a ton of small businesses like mine that are already stressed
by the cost of providing health care. Expect there are a lots having
to drop coverage because of cost. Ours has been going up at more than
10% a year and we've had to opt for inferior coverage to what we had
originally to keep it within our means.

I suppose if you're not currently operating a business, you might be
unaware how challenging the situation is...


I, for one, am well aware of the challenge presented to small businesses
with regard to health insurance programs. I witnessed it go from an
affordable benefit that a company could offer and pay 100 percent of the
premiums for to a major component of operating costs over a relatively short
period of time.

For this reason, I've long been an advocate of returning to the "Major
Medical" form of health insurance coverage that existed before the HMO/PPO
programs became popular, starting back in the 80's. They marked the
beginning of the expodential rise in health insurance premiums that small
businesses have had to absorb since. Large corporations can often (and do)
self-insure, but a small business can't.

Health insurance, like other forms of insurance, should be to prevent the
financial wipeout of an individual and his/her family in the event of a
catastrophic injury or health problem. It should not be designed to cover
every little ailment or boo-boo that comes along that can easily and
routinely treated at home.

It's another example of passing personal responsibily off to someone else to
take care of, just like how school systems are now expected to teach kids
about everything under the sun in addition to traditional academic subjects.

The current administration's plan for health plan responsibilities are
certainly not in the best interests of your small business.

Eisboch

Sober thoughts on health care
 

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 19:11:16 -0700, jps wrote:

On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 21:24:20 -0400, H the K
wrote:

Eisboch wrote:
"Jack" wrote in message
...

Reformers' Claims Just Don't Add Up
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Friday, July 17, 2009 4:20 PM PT


. America has a health care crisis.

---------------------------------

America does not have a health care crisis.

America has a welfare crisis.

Eisboch


Spoken like a "true Republican have."
"I've got mine, screw the poor, eh?"

There's a ton of small businesses like mine that are already stressed
by the cost of providing health care. Expect there are a lots having
to drop coverage because of cost. Ours has been going up at more than
10% a year and we've had to opt for inferior coverage to what we had
originally to keep it within our means.

I suppose if you're not currently operating a business, you might be
unaware how challenging the situation is...

If the business is stressed by providing health care, why provide it?
There is no governmental mandate that you do so. The only mandate in
most states is for the provisioin of Workman's Comp. Are your
employees incapable of providing thier own? Is the compensation given
your employees inadequate for their needs? Do you pay full cost of
their insurance? It is a common practice for businesses to help
relieve the (voluntary) stress of coverage by putting part or all of
the cost of coverage on the employee, even if their coverage is a
group. Have you explored HSA's, HRA's, FSA's? Are you aware that
insurance companies compete for you business? Are you aware that
HDHP's are desgined to keep premiums low? If your insurance is a
group, is it a PPO? If you are genuinely concerned about covering
your employees, have you earnestly explored all insurance options?

(I owned a manufacturing concern for more than a decade. It wouldn't
in your best interest to complain about any naivete on my part, in
asking these questions. (And I am also a licensed insurance agent.))



One of the weaknesses of your arguement is the competitive nature of
attracting desireable employees for your small business. In my experience,
employer health plans is a major consideration in the eyes of people
accepting positions in a company.

My state, (MA) also has had some screwy insurance laws over the years.
Things like requirements for 100 percent employee participation in the group
plan your company offers. I couldn't have multiple plans. If we had a Blue
Cross plan, I couldn't also offer a Tufts or Harvard plan as well.
This presented problems when a prospective employee's family doctor was
affiliated with one plan, but not with the company's plan. We had
situation once, early in the company's beginnings, where a key employee had
a youngster with a medical problem that was being managed by a doctor who
was affiliated with Harvard but not with Blue Cross. We ended up having to
change the whole company plan over to Harvard to make sure his kid and
family remained covered.

Eisboch