A better boat building material
 

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:56:51 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:01:08 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.

Solid FRP is twice as heavy as wood with less strength and stiffness.
FRPs claim to fame is durability not light weight.

FRP is often touted as "lighter than steel, but stronger."
There's quite a bit of work being done using geometric structuring
with FRP to maintain strength and light weight, and of course
vacuuming processes to lower resin content.

State of the art light weight construction is being done with
uni-directional carbon fibers oriented in the direction of maximum
loading; vacuum bagging to remove excess epoxy resin; light weight
high strength core materials like closed cell foam, end grain balsa,
aluminum honeycomb, etc; all baked in an autoclave at exactly the
right temperature for maximum strength. Rigid process control is
critical for maximum strength and predictable outcome. Welded
aluminum is easy by comparison.

I suppose the cost of the processes is the big stumbling block.
Froggy might come up with a way to do it using a couple of flashlight
batteries. It's all pretty much voodoo to me.
Hey....voodoo. Might work.

--Vic

A better boat building material
 

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
On Jul 1, 1:42 pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.

It's called cold molding.

http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009

Been around for years.

Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.

All glass boats are too heavy requiring too much fuel. Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair.
Above the waterline, foam/glass is ok but below the water, no.
Loogy, I am not a ME but a physics geek. Carbon fiber is currently
expensive and if such a boat was struck by lightning, the result would
be bizarre.

There are composites used in boat building. Davis Boats in Paso Robles has
composite transom, no wood. Triton I think is a wood free boat. Aluminim
boats just cost lots to get the equipment to built them. The really good
welders are in the $13-15K range for a good tig welder. Miller syncrowave
700, etc. then you need a good Mig welder with spoolgun that can handle
3/16-1/2" aluminum. Probably in the $5-8k range. You can buy the lofting
patterns for aluminum boats and then have a supplier cut the aluminum to
shape. And press the parts that need shaping. Lots of nice aluminum
homebuild boats. Repair is not anyworse than fiberglass. And the boat will
take a lot more to damage. Other problem, is only Tracker seems to have
formed alum boats that have nice rounded lines. So aluminum boats can run a
little wetter and less Vee in most smaller boats.

A better boat building material
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:00:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair..

We just got back from a trip to Alaska and the Pacific North West.
Boating conditions there are very rugged and there are also large
numbers of welded aluminum boats.

A friend of mine used to have a 50 ft aluminum racing sailboat and
repairs were relatively easy with the right skills and equipment. I'd
agree that not every boatyard can do it however.

My aluminum boat is 17 years old. Has only had a couple hull repairs.
Copper wire fell in the anchor locker and cause a small leak in the bottom.
$100 of Tig welding and was cured. Replaced the wood floor, and a bad weld
was cracked and small tig job required. Could have fixed with my Mig welder
with spool gun, but did not own it at that time. Bottom has a few dents
that may be affecting performance, but not enough to cause me to get the
hammer out. They make carbon fiber offshore raceboats. EXPENSIVE! Looking
at $150K for hull only.

A better boat building material
 

On Jul 1, 1:42*pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. *Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. *This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. *On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.

It's called cold molding.

http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009

Been around for years.

Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.

Bzzzttt....wrong.. With the equipment and materials available now,
it's pretty straight up... Oh, and you were wrong before too when you
dismissed plywood for complex curves and angles.. You don't know ****
about boat building, why not stay out of this thread. After all, it's
about boats..

A better boat building material
 

On Jul 1, 3:09*pm, Frogwatch wrote:
On Jul 1, 3:04*pm, HK wrote:





Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:00:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Jul 1, 1:42 pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. *Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. *This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. *On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.
It's called cold molding.
http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009
Been around for years.
Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.
All glass boats are too heavy requiring too much fuel. *Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair.
Above the waterline, foam/glass is ok but below the water, no.
Loogy, I am not a ME but a physics geek. *Carbon fiber is currently
expensive and if such a boat was struck by lightning, the result would
be bizarre.

Since you're still interested in the subject I posted a response I had
written to Wayne but didn't bother sending.
In that "efficient boats" thread.
Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.
Pie in the sky, but maybe you can come up with something.

--Vic

Transparent aluminum, of course. :)

HK: *I had forgotten what happens to carbon fiber masts when struck by
lightning. *Maybe Boron fiber..........- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Boron.. I remember the werid glass tubes they used to make boron
"thread" here in CT... Quite a process, pretty neat stuff. That was a
loooong time ago. I did not make the stuff, I was a sub contractor on
the facility...

A better boat building material
 

JustWaitAFrekinMinute! wrote:
On Jul 1, 1:42 pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.
It's called cold molding.
http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009
Been around for years.
Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.

Bzzzttt....wrong.. With the equipment and materials available now,
it's pretty straight up... Oh, and you were wrong before too when you
dismissed plywood for complex curves and angles.. You don't know ****
about boat building, why not stay out of this thread. After all, it's
about boats..


Please. You failed as a builder of dinghies...what the hell do you know?
Crikey, you can't even paint a straight waterline on a rowboat.

A better boat building material
 

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:20:05 -0400, HK wrote:

And for a superior boat building material? Welded plate aluminum.

It's not bad with rivets. All airplanes are riveted, none welded.

Casady

A better boat building material
 

On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:14:51 -0700 (PDT), Loogypicker
wrote:

All glass boats are too heavy requiring too much fuel.

Two of the neighbors at the lake have Rebels. These are the first
fiberglass sailboats ever made, and they weigh 700 pounds. For a
sixteen foot boat. Today a plastic A Scow, 38 feet long, is only 1850.

Casady

A better boat building material
 

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:01:08 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.
Pie in the sky, but maybe you can come up with something.

There are at least two. Titanium and graphite.

Casady

A better boat building material
 

On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:09:37 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

HK: I had forgotten what happens to carbon fiber masts when struck by
lightning. Maybe Boron fiber..........

Wood can explode from lightning due to steam explosions. What happens
with carbon? It should be dry but maybe just traces are too much.

Casady