A better boat building material
 

What we need is a better boat building material than marine ply/epoxy
and glass. I have no problem with epoxy and glass and the combo with
marine ply yields a far better boat than one can buy in a production
boat but I am not happy with marine ply.
Basically, marine ply is really not much better than standard ply.
The only major diff is that there are fewer voids and even that is
questionable. Some of it I have seen simply has the voids (knots)
filled with some sort of non-structural resin that does not add
strength.
I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.

A better boat building material
 

Frogwatch wrote:
What we need is a better boat building material than marine ply/epoxy
and glass. I have no problem with epoxy and glass and the combo with
marine ply yields a far better boat than one can buy in a production
boat but I am not happy with marine ply.
Basically, marine ply is really not much better than standard ply.
The only major diff is that there are fewer voids and even that is
questionable. Some of it I have seen simply has the voids (knots)
filled with some sort of non-structural resin that does not add
strength.
I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.



"I have no problem with epoxy and glass and the combo with
marine ply yields a far better boat than one can buy in a production
boat..."

Care to qualify that a bit, because taken at face value, it's just plain
bizarre. What's wrong with all-glass, or for above the waterline, a foam
sandwich covered by glass that's vacuum bagged?

And for a superior boat building material? Welded plate aluminum.

Now, if you are talking strictly smaller homebrew boats without much in
the way of compound curves, glass over ply is just fine. Bamboo? Carbon
fiber?

A better boat building material
 

On Jul 1, 1:20*pm, HK wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
What we need is a better boat building material than marine ply/epoxy
and glass. *I have no problem with epoxy and glass and the combo with
marine ply yields a far better boat than one can buy in a production
boat but I am not happy with marine ply.
Basically, marine ply is really not much better than standard ply.
The only major diff is that there are fewer voids and even that is
questionable. *Some of it I have seen simply has the voids (knots)
filled with some sort of non-structural resin that does not add
strength.
I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. *Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. *This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. *On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.

"I have no problem with epoxy and glass and the combo with
* marine ply yields a far better boat than one can buy in a production
* boat..."

Care to qualify that a bit, because taken at face value, it's just plain
bizarre. What's wrong with all-glass, or for above the waterline, a foam
sandwich covered by glass that's vacuum bagged?

And for a superior boat building material? Welded plate aluminum.

Now, if you are talking strictly smaller homebrew boats without much in
the way of compound curves, glass over ply is just fine. Bamboo? Carbon
fiber?

As an alleged mechanical engineer, what inherent problems do you see
with using carbon fiber? How can these problems be solved?

A better boat building material
 

On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.

It's called cold molding.

http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009

Been around for years.

A better boat building material
 

Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.

It's called cold molding.

http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009

Been around for years.


Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.

A better boat building material
 

On Jul 1, 1:42*pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. *Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. *This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. *On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.

It's called cold molding.

http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009

Been around for years.

Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.

All glass boats are too heavy requiring too much fuel. Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair.
Above the waterline, foam/glass is ok but below the water, no.
Loogy, I am not a ME but a physics geek. Carbon fiber is currently
expensive and if such a boat was struck by lightning, the result would
be bizarre.

A better boat building material
 

Frogwatch wrote:
On Jul 1, 1:42 pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.
It's called cold molding.
http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009
Been around for years.
Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.

All glass boats are too heavy requiring too much fuel. Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair.
Above the waterline, foam/glass is ok but below the water, no.
Loogy, I am not a ME but a physics geek. Carbon fiber is currently
expensive and if such a boat was struck by lightning, the result would
be bizarre.


Loogy's accusing you of being a mechanical engineer, too? That's funny.
*His* engineering skills consist of twisting the throttle on his Lionel
trains.

I thought you were advocating a high tech composite incorporating carbon
fiber. Now you are telling us the results would be bizarre if such a
boat were struck by lighting.

You seem to have a big problem with boat weight, yet you want to boat
offshore in some comfort. You do realize there is a connection between a
boat's weight and how it performs offshore, right?

I agree that welding aluminum plate requires skill, but what's wrong
with that? Oh...I remember, you want to replace workers with robots.

A better boat building material
 

On Jul 1, 2:00*pm, Frogwatch wrote:
On Jul 1, 1:42*pm, HK wrote:





Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. *Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. *This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. *On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.

It's called cold molding.

http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009

Been around for years.

Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.

All glass boats are too heavy requiring too much fuel. *Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair.
Above the waterline, foam/glass is ok but below the water, no.
Loogy, I am not a ME but a physics geek. *Carbon fiber is currently
expensive and if such a boat was struck by lightning, the result would
be bizarre.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Frog, that was in response to Harry. A couple of years ago he claimed
right here to have a mechanical engineering degree!!!!!

A better boat building material
 

On Jul 1, 2:12*pm, HK wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Jul 1, 1:42 pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. *Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. *This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. *On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.
It's called cold molding.
http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009
Been around for years.
Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.

All glass boats are too heavy requiring too much fuel. *Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair.
Above the waterline, foam/glass is ok but below the water, no.
Loogy, I am not a ME but a physics geek. *Carbon fiber is currently
expensive and if such a boat was struck by lightning, the result would
be bizarre.

Loogy's accusing you of being a mechanical engineer, too? That's funny.
*His* engineering skills consist of twisting the throttle on his Lionel
trains.

Pssst, want to put your diplomas up against mine? Put up or shut up.
Come on Harry, I DARE you. We'll do it right here in rec.boats for
everyone to see, deal?

A better boat building material
 

On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:00:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Jul 1, 1:42Â*pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. Â*Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. Â*This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. Â*On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.

It's called cold molding.

http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009

Been around for years.

Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.

All glass boats are too heavy requiring too much fuel. Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair.
Above the waterline, foam/glass is ok but below the water, no.
Loogy, I am not a ME but a physics geek. Carbon fiber is currently
expensive and if such a boat was struck by lightning, the result would
be bizarre.

Since you're still interested in the subject I posted a response I had
written to Wayne but didn't bother sending.
In that "efficient boats" thread.
Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.
Pie in the sky, but maybe you can come up with something.

--Vic

A better boat building material
 

Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:00:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Jul 1, 1:42 pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.
It's called cold molding.
http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009
Been around for years.
Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.
All glass boats are too heavy requiring too much fuel. Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair.
Above the waterline, foam/glass is ok but below the water, no.
Loogy, I am not a ME but a physics geek. Carbon fiber is currently
expensive and if such a boat was struck by lightning, the result would
be bizarre.

Since you're still interested in the subject I posted a response I had
written to Wayne but didn't bother sending.
In that "efficient boats" thread.
Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.
Pie in the sky, but maybe you can come up with something.

--Vic



Transparent aluminum, of course. :)

A better boat building material
 

On Jul 1, 3:04*pm, HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:00:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Jul 1, 1:42 pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. *Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. *This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. *On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.
It's called cold molding.
http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009
Been around for years.
Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.
All glass boats are too heavy requiring too much fuel. *Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair.
Above the waterline, foam/glass is ok but below the water, no.
Loogy, I am not a ME but a physics geek. *Carbon fiber is currently
expensive and if such a boat was struck by lightning, the result would
be bizarre.

Since you're still interested in the subject I posted a response I had
written to Wayne but didn't bother sending.
In that "efficient boats" thread.
Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.
Pie in the sky, but maybe you can come up with something.

--Vic

Transparent aluminum, of course. :)

HK: I had forgotten what happens to carbon fiber masts when struck by
lightning. Maybe Boron fiber..........

A better boat building material
 

On Jul 1, 3:04*pm, HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:00:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Jul 1, 1:42 pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. *Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. *This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. *On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.
It's called cold molding.
http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009
Been around for years.
Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.
All glass boats are too heavy requiring too much fuel. *Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair.
Above the waterline, foam/glass is ok but below the water, no.
Loogy, I am not a ME but a physics geek. *Carbon fiber is currently
expensive and if such a boat was struck by lightning, the result would
be bizarre.

Since you're still interested in the subject I posted a response I had
written to Wayne but didn't bother sending.
In that "efficient boats" thread.
Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.
Pie in the sky, but maybe you can come up with something.

--Vic

Transparent aluminum, of course. :)

I'VE GOT IT. This uses a weird thing I found a few years ago. We
make the hull in a form out of carbon fiber mat. We connect that
carbon fiber to ground. We then pour in an electroplating solution,
maybe Ni but Cu would work too although I'd really like Al but it
doesnt exist......yet. We use Ni or Cu electrodes. The fibers get
coated with the metal and then fuse together forming a very thin shell
that has the stiffness of the metal but the tensile strength of the
carbon fiber. The fibers would "print through" so you might want a
lightweight "gel coat".
Practical.....well, no. Really cool, YES.

A better boat building material
 

Frogwatch wrote:
On Jul 1, 3:04 pm, HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:00:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
On Jul 1, 1:42 pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.
It's called cold molding.
http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009
Been around for years.
Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.
All glass boats are too heavy requiring too much fuel. Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair.
Above the waterline, foam/glass is ok but below the water, no.
Loogy, I am not a ME but a physics geek. Carbon fiber is currently
expensive and if such a boat was struck by lightning, the result would
be bizarre.
Since you're still interested in the subject I posted a response I had
written to Wayne but didn't bother sending.
In that "efficient boats" thread.
Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.
Pie in the sky, but maybe you can come up with something.
--Vic
Transparent aluminum, of course. :)

HK: I had forgotten what happens to carbon fiber masts when struck by
lightning. Maybe Boron fiber..........


What do you suppose happens to all the tiny water molecues in a wooden
mast struck by lightning?

There are plenty of sailboats running carbon fiber masts and spars, and
aren't there powered airplanes and gliders using carbon fiber panels?

A better boat building material
 

Frogwatch wrote:
On Jul 1, 3:04 pm, HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:00:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
On Jul 1, 1:42 pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.
It's called cold molding.
http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009
Been around for years.
Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.
All glass boats are too heavy requiring too much fuel. Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair.
Above the waterline, foam/glass is ok but below the water, no.
Loogy, I am not a ME but a physics geek. Carbon fiber is currently
expensive and if such a boat was struck by lightning, the result would
be bizarre.
Since you're still interested in the subject I posted a response I had
written to Wayne but didn't bother sending.
In that "efficient boats" thread.
Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.
Pie in the sky, but maybe you can come up with something.
--Vic
Transparent aluminum, of course. :)

I'VE GOT IT. This uses a weird thing I found a few years ago. We
make the hull in a form out of carbon fiber mat. We connect that
carbon fiber to ground. We then pour in an electroplating solution,
maybe Ni but Cu would work too although I'd really like Al but it
doesnt exist......yet. We use Ni or Cu electrodes. The fibers get
coated with the metal and then fuse together forming a very thin shell
that has the stiffness of the metal but the tensile strength of the
carbon fiber. The fibers would "print through" so you might want a
lightweight "gel coat".
Practical.....well, no. Really cool, YES.


Just the thing for the amateur home builder...

This guy has your answer:

http://tinyurl.com/nr9qxp

Looks like he has a nice bimini top under construction, too.

A better boat building material
 

On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:00:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair..

We just got back from a trip to Alaska and the Pacific North West.
Boating conditions there are very rugged and there are also large
numbers of welded aluminum boats.

A friend of mine used to have a 50 ft aluminum racing sailboat and
repairs were relatively easy with the right skills and equipment. I'd
agree that not every boatyard can do it however.

A better boat building material
 

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:01:08 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.

Solid FRP is twice as heavy as wood with less strength and stiffness.
FRPs claim to fame is durability not light weight.

State of the art light weight construction is being done with
uni-directional carbon fibers oriented in the direction of maximum
loading; vacuum bagging to remove excess epoxy resin; light weight
high strength core materials like closed cell foam, end grain balsa,
aluminum honeycomb, etc; all baked in an autoclave at exactly the
right temperature for maximum strength. Rigid process control is
critical for maximum strength and predictable outcome. Welded
aluminum is easy by comparison.

A better boat building material
 

On Jul 1, 3:56*pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:01:08 -0500, Vic Smith

wrote:
Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.

Solid FRP is twice as heavy as wood with less strength and stiffness.
FRPs claim to fame is durability not light weight.

State of the art light weight construction is being done with
uni-directional carbon fibers oriented in the direction of maximum
loading; vacuum bagging to remove excess epoxy resin; light weight
high strength core materials like closed cell foam, end grain balsa,
aluminum honeycomb, etc; all baked in an autoclave at exactly the
right temperature for maximum strength. *Rigid process control is
critical for maximum strength and predictable outcome. * Welded
aluminum is easy by comparison.

Carbon fiber masts when hit by lightning tend to explode into a hairy
mass due to the conducting nature of the fibers and the poor
conductivity (high resistence) of the epoxy they are embedded in.
Wood by comparison is a poor conductor. A solid Al mast is a good
conductor with little resistance. The same might be true of a carbon
fiber hull......

A better boat building material
 

Frogwatch wrote:
On Jul 1, 3:56 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:01:08 -0500, Vic Smith

wrote:
Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.
Solid FRP is twice as heavy as wood with less strength and stiffness.
FRPs claim to fame is durability not light weight.

State of the art light weight construction is being done with
uni-directional carbon fibers oriented in the direction of maximum
loading; vacuum bagging to remove excess epoxy resin; light weight
high strength core materials like closed cell foam, end grain balsa,
aluminum honeycomb, etc; all baked in an autoclave at exactly the
right temperature for maximum strength. Rigid process control is
critical for maximum strength and predictable outcome. Welded
aluminum is easy by comparison.

Carbon fiber masts when hit by lightning tend to explode into a hairy
mass due to the conducting nature of the fibers and the poor
conductivity (high resistence) of the epoxy they are embedded in.
Wood by comparison is a poor conductor. A solid Al mast is a good
conductor with little resistance. The same might be true of a carbon
fiber hull......


I ask you again...why are so many sailboat masts made of c.f. these days?

A better boat building material
 

On Jul 1, 4:35*pm, HK wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Jul 1, 3:56 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:01:08 -0500, Vic Smith

wrote:
Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.
Solid FRP is twice as heavy as wood with less strength and stiffness.
FRPs claim to fame is durability not light weight.

State of the art light weight construction is being done with
uni-directional carbon fibers oriented in the direction of maximum
loading; vacuum bagging to remove excess epoxy resin; light weight
high strength core materials like closed cell foam, end grain balsa,
aluminum honeycomb, etc; all baked in an autoclave at exactly the
right temperature for maximum strength. *Rigid process control is
critical for maximum strength and predictable outcome. * Welded
aluminum is easy by comparison.

Carbon fiber masts when hit by lightning tend to explode into a hairy
mass due to the conducting nature of the fibers and the poor
conductivity (high resistence) of the epoxy they are embedded in.
Wood by comparison is a poor conductor. *A solid Al mast is a good
conductor with little resistance. *The same might be true of a carbon
fiber hull......

I ask you again...why are so many sailboat masts made of c.f. these days?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The alleged mechanical engineer doesn't know the answer to this? It's
simple strength to weight ratio.

A better boat building material
 

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:56:51 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:01:08 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.

Solid FRP is twice as heavy as wood with less strength and stiffness.
FRPs claim to fame is durability not light weight.

FRP is often touted as "lighter than steel, but stronger."
There's quite a bit of work being done using geometric structuring
with FRP to maintain strength and light weight, and of course
vacuuming processes to lower resin content.

State of the art light weight construction is being done with
uni-directional carbon fibers oriented in the direction of maximum
loading; vacuum bagging to remove excess epoxy resin; light weight
high strength core materials like closed cell foam, end grain balsa,
aluminum honeycomb, etc; all baked in an autoclave at exactly the
right temperature for maximum strength. Rigid process control is
critical for maximum strength and predictable outcome. Welded
aluminum is easy by comparison.

I suppose the cost of the processes is the big stumbling block.
Froggy might come up with a way to do it using a couple of flashlight
batteries. It's all pretty much voodoo to me.
Hey....voodoo. Might work.

--Vic

A better boat building material
 

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
On Jul 1, 1:42 pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.

It's called cold molding.

http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009

Been around for years.

Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.

All glass boats are too heavy requiring too much fuel. Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair.
Above the waterline, foam/glass is ok but below the water, no.
Loogy, I am not a ME but a physics geek. Carbon fiber is currently
expensive and if such a boat was struck by lightning, the result would
be bizarre.

There are composites used in boat building. Davis Boats in Paso Robles has
composite transom, no wood. Triton I think is a wood free boat. Aluminim
boats just cost lots to get the equipment to built them. The really good
welders are in the $13-15K range for a good tig welder. Miller syncrowave
700, etc. then you need a good Mig welder with spoolgun that can handle
3/16-1/2" aluminum. Probably in the $5-8k range. You can buy the lofting
patterns for aluminum boats and then have a supplier cut the aluminum to
shape. And press the parts that need shaping. Lots of nice aluminum
homebuild boats. Repair is not anyworse than fiberglass. And the boat will
take a lot more to damage. Other problem, is only Tracker seems to have
formed alum boats that have nice rounded lines. So aluminum boats can run a
little wetter and less Vee in most smaller boats.

A better boat building material
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:00:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair..

We just got back from a trip to Alaska and the Pacific North West.
Boating conditions there are very rugged and there are also large
numbers of welded aluminum boats.

A friend of mine used to have a 50 ft aluminum racing sailboat and
repairs were relatively easy with the right skills and equipment. I'd
agree that not every boatyard can do it however.

My aluminum boat is 17 years old. Has only had a couple hull repairs.
Copper wire fell in the anchor locker and cause a small leak in the bottom.
$100 of Tig welding and was cured. Replaced the wood floor, and a bad weld
was cracked and small tig job required. Could have fixed with my Mig welder
with spool gun, but did not own it at that time. Bottom has a few dents
that may be affecting performance, but not enough to cause me to get the
hammer out. They make carbon fiber offshore raceboats. EXPENSIVE! Looking
at $150K for hull only.

A better boat building material
 

On Jul 1, 1:42*pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. *Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. *This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. *On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.

It's called cold molding.

http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009

Been around for years.

Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.

Bzzzttt....wrong.. With the equipment and materials available now,
it's pretty straight up... Oh, and you were wrong before too when you
dismissed plywood for complex curves and angles.. You don't know ****
about boat building, why not stay out of this thread. After all, it's
about boats..

A better boat building material
 

On Jul 1, 3:09*pm, Frogwatch wrote:
On Jul 1, 3:04*pm, HK wrote:





Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:00:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Jul 1, 1:42 pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. *Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. *This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. *On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.
It's called cold molding.
http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009
Been around for years.
Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.
All glass boats are too heavy requiring too much fuel. *Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair.
Above the waterline, foam/glass is ok but below the water, no.
Loogy, I am not a ME but a physics geek. *Carbon fiber is currently
expensive and if such a boat was struck by lightning, the result would
be bizarre.

Since you're still interested in the subject I posted a response I had
written to Wayne but didn't bother sending.
In that "efficient boats" thread.
Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.
Pie in the sky, but maybe you can come up with something.

--Vic

Transparent aluminum, of course. :)

HK: *I had forgotten what happens to carbon fiber masts when struck by
lightning. *Maybe Boron fiber..........- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Boron.. I remember the werid glass tubes they used to make boron
"thread" here in CT... Quite a process, pretty neat stuff. That was a
loooong time ago. I did not make the stuff, I was a sub contractor on
the facility...

A better boat building material
 

JustWaitAFrekinMinute! wrote:
On Jul 1, 1:42 pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.
It's called cold molding.
http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009
Been around for years.
Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.

Bzzzttt....wrong.. With the equipment and materials available now,
it's pretty straight up... Oh, and you were wrong before too when you
dismissed plywood for complex curves and angles.. You don't know ****
about boat building, why not stay out of this thread. After all, it's
about boats..


Please. You failed as a builder of dinghies...what the hell do you know?
Crikey, you can't even paint a straight waterline on a rowboat.

A better boat building material
 

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:20:05 -0400, HK wrote:

And for a superior boat building material? Welded plate aluminum.

It's not bad with rivets. All airplanes are riveted, none welded.

Casady

A better boat building material
 

On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:14:51 -0700 (PDT), Loogypicker
wrote:

All glass boats are too heavy requiring too much fuel.

Two of the neighbors at the lake have Rebels. These are the first
fiberglass sailboats ever made, and they weigh 700 pounds. For a
sixteen foot boat. Today a plastic A Scow, 38 feet long, is only 1850.

Casady

A better boat building material
 

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:01:08 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.
Pie in the sky, but maybe you can come up with something.

There are at least two. Titanium and graphite.

Casady

A better boat building material
 

On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:09:37 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

HK: I had forgotten what happens to carbon fiber masts when struck by
lightning. Maybe Boron fiber..........

Wood can explode from lightning due to steam explosions. What happens
with carbon? It should be dry but maybe just traces are too much.

Casady

A better boat building material
 

On Jul 1, 8:43*pm, HK wrote:
JustWaitAFrekinMinute! wrote:
On Jul 1, 1:42 pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. *Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. *This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. *On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.
It's called cold molding.
http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009
Been around for years.
Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.

Bzzzttt....wrong.. With the equipment and materials available now,
it's pretty straight up... Oh, and you were wrong before too when you
dismissed plywood for complex curves and angles.. You don't know ****
about boat building, why not stay out of this thread. After all, it's
about boats..

Please. You failed as a builder of dinghies...what the hell do you know?
Crikey, you can't even paint a straight waterline on a rowboat.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nope, retired to take care of family... You have failed at about
everything, I mean, like Dick said. You worked for a bunch of crooks
at some power company and wrote a flyer for a union.. So much is the
story of your life.. Did they even use the material you wrote?

A better boat building material
 

On Jul 2, 10:40*am, Richard Casady
wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:09:37 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch

wrote:
HK: *I had forgotten what happens to carbon fiber masts when struck by
lightning. *Maybe Boron fiber..........

*Wood can explode from lightning due to steam explosions. What happens
with carbon? It should be dry but maybe just traces are too much.

Casady

Here is why I think many sailboats are made with carbon fiber masts.
1. Most are sailed in areas without the number of lightning strikes
of Florida.
2. When kept in a marina, the likelyhood of a single specific mast
being hit is low.

Thus, the only time a carbon fiber mast is a danger is when the boat
is the lone boat under a thunderstorm.
It is not the moisture that makes CF masts explode into fibers, it is
the resistance of the tiny gaps between ends of fibers that are filled
with resin. This resistance is sufficient to cause rapid heating.
By comparison, wood masts are poor conductors, even when they have
some moisture in them thus power is dissipated over the entire volume
instead of just at the pointy fiber ends where electric fields tend to
concentrate.
At least, this is my theory and I'll admit it is a stretch.

A better boat building material
 

"Gene" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 02 Jul 2009 06:41:10 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:20:05 -0400, HK wrote:

And for a superior boat building material? Welded plate aluminum.

It's not bad with rivets. All airplanes are riveted, none welded.

Casady

(1) Rivets and boats are as big a PITA as Integral Fuel Tanks and
Rivets.... unless you have a fondness for corrosion and leaks....

(2) Wrong.
http://www.eclipseaviation.com/compa...nnovations.php

--

Forté Agent 5.00 Build 1171

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by
the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do.
So, throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover." - Unknown

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepage
http://pamandgene.tranquilrefuge.net...at/my_boat.htm



Interesting welding method. Lastest AWS journal has an article where they
now stir weld steel pipe and plate.

A better boat building material
 

On Jul 2, 11:35*am, Gene wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2009 06:41:10 -0500, Richard Casady

wrote:
On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:20:05 -0400, HK wrote:

And for a superior boat building material? Welded plate aluminum.

It's not bad with rivets. All airplanes are riveted, none welded.

Casady

(1) Rivets and boats are as big a PITA as Integral Fuel Tanks and
Rivets.... unless you have a fondness for corrosion and leaks....

(2) Wrong.http://www.eclipseaviation.com/compa...nnovations.php

--

Forté Agent 5.00 Build 1171

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by
the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do.
So, throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover." * - Unknown

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepagehttp://pamandgene.tranquilrefuge.net/boating/the_boat/my_boat.htm

One of the troubles with aluminum is it's fracturability. You can take
a piece of aluminum bar stock, say 1/4"x2", put it in a vice, score it
across somewhere with a razor knife, using light pressure, and if you
start flexing it, that's where it'll break, and it'll be a clean break
right where you scored.

A better boat building material
 

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 2 Jul 2009 10:45:23 -0700 (PDT), Loogypicker penned the
following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

|On Jul 2, 11:35 am, Gene wrote:
| On Thu, 02 Jul 2009 06:41:10 -0500, Richard Casady
|
| wrote:
| On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:20:05 -0400, HK wrote:
|
| And for a superior boat building material? Welded plate aluminum.
|
| It's not bad with rivets. All airplanes are riveted, none welded.
|
| Casady
|
| (1) Rivets and boats are as big a PITA as Integral Fuel Tanks and
| Rivets.... unless you have a fondness for corrosion and leaks....
|
| (2) Wrong.http://www.eclipseaviation.com/compa...nnovations.php
|
| --
|
| Forté Agent 5.00 Build 1171
|
| "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by
| the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do.
| So, throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor.
| Catch the trade winds in your sails.
| Explore. Dream. Discover." - Unknown
|
| Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.
|
|
Homepagehttp://pamandgene.tranquilrefuge.net/boating/the_boat/my_boat.htm
|
|One of the troubles with aluminum is it's fracturability. You can take
|a piece of aluminum bar stock, say 1/4"x2", put it in a vice, score it
|across somewhere with a razor knife, using light pressure, and if you
|start flexing it, that's where it'll break, and it'll be a clean break
|right where you scored.

That is so predictable, I don't allow my students to have a scriber in
their tool box.....

--
Agent 5.00 Build 1171

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepage
http://pamandgene.tranquilrefuge.net/



The one major problem with Aluminum is not really a B-10 rating, or whatever
it is called now. As long as you keep steel out of the plastic range, it
will not fracture like that. Aluminum does not have that ability. Just
design so the aluminum is not flexing all the time.

A better boat building material
 

Richard Casady wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:09:37 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

HK: I had forgotten what happens to carbon fiber masts when struck by
lightning. Maybe Boron fiber..........

Wood can explode from lightning due to steam explosions. What happens
with carbon? It should be dry but maybe just traces are too much.

Casady

You are once again attributing something froggy said to me.

A better boat building material
 

JustWaitAFrekinMinute! wrote:
On Jul 1, 8:43 pm, HK wrote:
JustWaitAFrekinMinute! wrote:
On Jul 1, 1:42 pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.
It's called cold molding.
http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009
Been around for years.
Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.
Bzzzttt....wrong.. With the equipment and materials available now,
it's pretty straight up... Oh, and you were wrong before too when you
dismissed plywood for complex curves and angles.. You don't know ****
about boat building, why not stay out of this thread. After all, it's
about boats..
Please. You failed as a builder of dinghies...what the hell do you know?
Crikey, you can't even paint a straight waterline on a rowboat.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nope, retired to take care of family... You have failed at about
everything, I mean, like Dick said. You worked for a bunch of crooks
at some power company and wrote a flyer for a union.. So much is the
story of your life.. Did they even use the material you wrote?



snerk go learn how to use a roll of masking tape to mark a
waterline, mr. pitiful.

A better boat building material
 

On Jul 2, 4:53*pm, HK wrote:
JustWaitAFrekinMinute! wrote:
On Jul 1, 8:43 pm, HK wrote:
JustWaitAFrekinMinute! wrote:
On Jul 1, 1:42 pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. *Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. *This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. *On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.
It's called cold molding.
http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009
Been around for years.
Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.
Bzzzttt....wrong.. With the equipment and materials available now,
it's pretty straight up... Oh, and you were wrong before too when you
dismissed plywood for complex curves and angles.. You don't know ****
about boat building, why not stay out of this thread. After all, it's
about boats..
Please. You failed as a builder of dinghies...what the hell do you know?
Crikey, you can't even paint a straight waterline on a rowboat.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nope, retired to take care of family... You have failed at about
everything, I mean, like Dick said. You worked for a bunch of crooks
at some power company and wrote a flyer for a union.. *So much is the
story of your life.. Did they even use the material you wrote?

*snerk go learn how to use a roll of masking tape to mark a
waterline, mr. pitiful.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are making up stories again. Go hide under your desk and read
about painting on Google..

A better boat building material
 

JustWaitAFrekinMinute! wrote:
On Jul 2, 4:53 pm, HK wrote:

Nope, retired to take care of family... You have failed at about
everything, I mean, like Dick said. You worked for a bunch of crooks
at some power company and wrote a flyer for a union.. So much is the
story of your life.. Did they even use the material you wrote?
snerk go learn how to use a roll of masking tape to mark a
waterline, mr. pitiful.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are making up stories again. Go hide under your desk and read
about painting on Google..


I saw the photos of your personal rowboat, bozo. You don't know how to
mark a waterline. It looked like you put the boat in the water and then
used a crayon to mark the waterline after you had a few too many beers.

I had no idea I had "worked...at some power company." Which one?

A better boat building material
 

On Jul 2, 5:07*pm, HK wrote:
JustWaitAFrekinMinute! wrote:
On Jul 2, 4:53 pm, HK wrote:
Nope, retired to take care of family... You have failed at about
everything, I mean, like Dick said. You worked for a bunch of crooks
at some power company and wrote a flyer for a union.. *So much is the
story of your life.. Did they even use the material you wrote?
*snerk go learn how to use a roll of masking tape to mark a
waterline, mr. pitiful.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are making up stories again. Go hide under your desk and read
about painting on Google..

I saw the photos of your personal rowboat, bozo. You don't know how to
mark a waterline. It looked like you put the boat in the water and then
used a crayon to mark the waterline after you had a few too many beers.

Nope, you are making it up as usual....

I had no idea I had "worked...at some power company." Which one?