A better boat building material
 

Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:00:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Jul 1, 1:42 pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.
It's called cold molding.
http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009
Been around for years.
Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.
All glass boats are too heavy requiring too much fuel. Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair.
Above the waterline, foam/glass is ok but below the water, no.
Loogy, I am not a ME but a physics geek. Carbon fiber is currently
expensive and if such a boat was struck by lightning, the result would
be bizarre.

Since you're still interested in the subject I posted a response I had
written to Wayne but didn't bother sending.
In that "efficient boats" thread.
Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.
Pie in the sky, but maybe you can come up with something.

--Vic



Transparent aluminum, of course. :)

A better boat building material
 

On Jul 1, 3:04*pm, HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:00:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Jul 1, 1:42 pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. *Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. *This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. *On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.
It's called cold molding.
http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009
Been around for years.
Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.
All glass boats are too heavy requiring too much fuel. *Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair.
Above the waterline, foam/glass is ok but below the water, no.
Loogy, I am not a ME but a physics geek. *Carbon fiber is currently
expensive and if such a boat was struck by lightning, the result would
be bizarre.

Since you're still interested in the subject I posted a response I had
written to Wayne but didn't bother sending.
In that "efficient boats" thread.
Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.
Pie in the sky, but maybe you can come up with something.

--Vic

Transparent aluminum, of course. :)

HK: I had forgotten what happens to carbon fiber masts when struck by
lightning. Maybe Boron fiber..........

A better boat building material
 

On Jul 1, 3:04*pm, HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:00:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Jul 1, 1:42 pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. *Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. *This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. *On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.
It's called cold molding.
http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009
Been around for years.
Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.
All glass boats are too heavy requiring too much fuel. *Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair.
Above the waterline, foam/glass is ok but below the water, no.
Loogy, I am not a ME but a physics geek. *Carbon fiber is currently
expensive and if such a boat was struck by lightning, the result would
be bizarre.

Since you're still interested in the subject I posted a response I had
written to Wayne but didn't bother sending.
In that "efficient boats" thread.
Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.
Pie in the sky, but maybe you can come up with something.

--Vic

Transparent aluminum, of course. :)

I'VE GOT IT. This uses a weird thing I found a few years ago. We
make the hull in a form out of carbon fiber mat. We connect that
carbon fiber to ground. We then pour in an electroplating solution,
maybe Ni but Cu would work too although I'd really like Al but it
doesnt exist......yet. We use Ni or Cu electrodes. The fibers get
coated with the metal and then fuse together forming a very thin shell
that has the stiffness of the metal but the tensile strength of the
carbon fiber. The fibers would "print through" so you might want a
lightweight "gel coat".
Practical.....well, no. Really cool, YES.

A better boat building material
 

Frogwatch wrote:
On Jul 1, 3:04 pm, HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:00:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
On Jul 1, 1:42 pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.
It's called cold molding.
http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009
Been around for years.
Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.
All glass boats are too heavy requiring too much fuel. Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair.
Above the waterline, foam/glass is ok but below the water, no.
Loogy, I am not a ME but a physics geek. Carbon fiber is currently
expensive and if such a boat was struck by lightning, the result would
be bizarre.
Since you're still interested in the subject I posted a response I had
written to Wayne but didn't bother sending.
In that "efficient boats" thread.
Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.
Pie in the sky, but maybe you can come up with something.
--Vic
Transparent aluminum, of course. :)

HK: I had forgotten what happens to carbon fiber masts when struck by
lightning. Maybe Boron fiber..........


What do you suppose happens to all the tiny water molecues in a wooden
mast struck by lightning?

There are plenty of sailboats running carbon fiber masts and spars, and
aren't there powered airplanes and gliders using carbon fiber panels?

A better boat building material
 

Frogwatch wrote:
On Jul 1, 3:04 pm, HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:00:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
On Jul 1, 1:42 pm, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:
I'd like to see a true high tech wood composite. Maybe bamboo
alternating with carbon fiber/ epoxy and then bamboo running at right
angles to the first. This would be lighter and stronger than marine
ply. On the outsides it would be skinned with a lighter glass than we
use for boats now like my Tolman.
It's called cold molding.
http://www.cwb.org/cold-molded-boat-building-2009
Been around for years.
Building a cold-moulded wood boat requires...well...the sort of skill
that comes from experience. But it does produce beautiful boats.
All glass boats are too heavy requiring too much fuel. Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair.
Above the waterline, foam/glass is ok but below the water, no.
Loogy, I am not a ME but a physics geek. Carbon fiber is currently
expensive and if such a boat was struck by lightning, the result would
be bizarre.
Since you're still interested in the subject I posted a response I had
written to Wayne but didn't bother sending.
In that "efficient boats" thread.
Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.
Pie in the sky, but maybe you can come up with something.
--Vic
Transparent aluminum, of course. :)

I'VE GOT IT. This uses a weird thing I found a few years ago. We
make the hull in a form out of carbon fiber mat. We connect that
carbon fiber to ground. We then pour in an electroplating solution,
maybe Ni but Cu would work too although I'd really like Al but it
doesnt exist......yet. We use Ni or Cu electrodes. The fibers get
coated with the metal and then fuse together forming a very thin shell
that has the stiffness of the metal but the tensile strength of the
carbon fiber. The fibers would "print through" so you might want a
lightweight "gel coat".
Practical.....well, no. Really cool, YES.


Just the thing for the amateur home builder...

This guy has your answer:

http://tinyurl.com/nr9qxp

Looks like he has a nice bimini top under construction, too.

A better boat building material
 

On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:00:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

Aluminum boats
are good but welding them right requires more skill than most boat
companies can afford and they are difficult to repair..

We just got back from a trip to Alaska and the Pacific North West.
Boating conditions there are very rugged and there are also large
numbers of welded aluminum boats.

A friend of mine used to have a 50 ft aluminum racing sailboat and
repairs were relatively easy with the right skills and equipment. I'd
agree that not every boatyard can do it however.

A better boat building material
 

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:01:08 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.

Solid FRP is twice as heavy as wood with less strength and stiffness.
FRPs claim to fame is durability not light weight.

State of the art light weight construction is being done with
uni-directional carbon fibers oriented in the direction of maximum
loading; vacuum bagging to remove excess epoxy resin; light weight
high strength core materials like closed cell foam, end grain balsa,
aluminum honeycomb, etc; all baked in an autoclave at exactly the
right temperature for maximum strength. Rigid process control is
critical for maximum strength and predictable outcome. Welded
aluminum is easy by comparison.

A better boat building material
 

On Jul 1, 3:56*pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:01:08 -0500, Vic Smith

wrote:
Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.

Solid FRP is twice as heavy as wood with less strength and stiffness.
FRPs claim to fame is durability not light weight.

State of the art light weight construction is being done with
uni-directional carbon fibers oriented in the direction of maximum
loading; vacuum bagging to remove excess epoxy resin; light weight
high strength core materials like closed cell foam, end grain balsa,
aluminum honeycomb, etc; all baked in an autoclave at exactly the
right temperature for maximum strength. *Rigid process control is
critical for maximum strength and predictable outcome. * Welded
aluminum is easy by comparison.

Carbon fiber masts when hit by lightning tend to explode into a hairy
mass due to the conducting nature of the fibers and the poor
conductivity (high resistence) of the epoxy they are embedded in.
Wood by comparison is a poor conductor. A solid Al mast is a good
conductor with little resistance. The same might be true of a carbon
fiber hull......

A better boat building material
 

Frogwatch wrote:
On Jul 1, 3:56 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:01:08 -0500, Vic Smith

wrote:
Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.
Solid FRP is twice as heavy as wood with less strength and stiffness.
FRPs claim to fame is durability not light weight.

State of the art light weight construction is being done with
uni-directional carbon fibers oriented in the direction of maximum
loading; vacuum bagging to remove excess epoxy resin; light weight
high strength core materials like closed cell foam, end grain balsa,
aluminum honeycomb, etc; all baked in an autoclave at exactly the
right temperature for maximum strength. Rigid process control is
critical for maximum strength and predictable outcome. Welded
aluminum is easy by comparison.

Carbon fiber masts when hit by lightning tend to explode into a hairy
mass due to the conducting nature of the fibers and the poor
conductivity (high resistence) of the epoxy they are embedded in.
Wood by comparison is a poor conductor. A solid Al mast is a good
conductor with little resistance. The same might be true of a carbon
fiber hull......


I ask you again...why are so many sailboat masts made of c.f. these days?

A better boat building material
 

On Jul 1, 4:35*pm, HK wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Jul 1, 3:56 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:01:08 -0500, Vic Smith

wrote:
Some weight examples, and my view that FRP is still pretty heavy and a
new material is in order.
Solid FRP is twice as heavy as wood with less strength and stiffness.
FRPs claim to fame is durability not light weight.

State of the art light weight construction is being done with
uni-directional carbon fibers oriented in the direction of maximum
loading; vacuum bagging to remove excess epoxy resin; light weight
high strength core materials like closed cell foam, end grain balsa,
aluminum honeycomb, etc; all baked in an autoclave at exactly the
right temperature for maximum strength. *Rigid process control is
critical for maximum strength and predictable outcome. * Welded
aluminum is easy by comparison.

Carbon fiber masts when hit by lightning tend to explode into a hairy
mass due to the conducting nature of the fibers and the poor
conductivity (high resistence) of the epoxy they are embedded in.
Wood by comparison is a poor conductor. *A solid Al mast is a good
conductor with little resistance. *The same might be true of a carbon
fiber hull......

I ask you again...why are so many sailboat masts made of c.f. these days?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The alleged mechanical engineer doesn't know the answer to this? It's
simple strength to weight ratio.