"jps" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 20:04:44 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"jps" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:36:18 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:28:50 -0700, jps wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:00:02 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:


Man cannot be trusted to interpret God. You included.

Thank you. I don't demand your trust.

Nor should you trust yourself in such matters. You're human.

But he's sure not a dime store psychoanalyst.
I'm pretty confident Tim has a real good handle on who he is,
and who he should trust.

--Vic

Let's agree to not agree.


I think you serve a very useful function here, jps. For those of us that
may occasionally start to stray and question ourselves, you very clearly
and
concisely redefine the standards of normalcy and becoming a nut case.

For that, I thank you.

Eisboch

I must have hurt your feelings. I'm sorry.

Don't flatter yourself.

Eisboch

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 20:10:52 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"jps" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 20:04:44 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"jps" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:36:18 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:28:50 -0700, jps wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:00:02 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:


Man cannot be trusted to interpret God. You included.

Thank you. I don't demand your trust.

Nor should you trust yourself in such matters. You're human.

But he's sure not a dime store psychoanalyst.
I'm pretty confident Tim has a real good handle on who he is,
and who he should trust.

--Vic

Let's agree to not agree.


I think you serve a very useful function here, jps. For those of us that
may occasionally start to stray and question ourselves, you very clearly
and
concisely redefine the standards of normalcy and becoming a nut case.

For that, I thank you.

Eisboch

I must have hurt your feelings. I'm sorry.

Don't flatter yourself.

Eisboch

Wouldn't think of it.

"jps" wrote in message
...

I must have hurt your feelings. I'm sorry.

Don't flatter yourself.

Eisboch

Wouldn't think of it.

Oh, but I think you would. And do.

Let me ask you a question. But first, let's establish the fact that I don't
care what you personally believe in or don't believe in in terms of your
personal views on religion.

But, are you open minded and intelligent enough to understand the concept of
religious faith? Can you, even though you may not subscribe to it, relate
to it or accept that others have a belief in something, someone or whatever
that is greater than themselves?

If you can, then 90% of what you say is BS and maybe your not as nutty as I
thought.

Eisboch

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 20:23:36 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"jps" wrote in message
.. .

I must have hurt your feelings. I'm sorry.

Don't flatter yourself.

Eisboch

Wouldn't think of it.

Oh, but I think you would. And do.

Let me ask you a question. But first, let's establish the fact that I don't
care what you personally believe in or don't believe in in terms of your
personal views on religion.

But, are you open minded and intelligent enough to understand the concept of
religious faith? Can you, even though you may not subscribe to it, relate
to it or accept that others have a belief in something, someone or whatever
that is greater than themselves?

If you can, then 90% of what you say is BS and maybe your not as nutty as I
thought.

Eisboch

Oh, I believe in things greater than myself.

Difference is that what I believe in isn't man made. It doesn't come
from a mystery man 2000 years or3500 years or 5700 years ago.

Look at what the kooky Judeo/Christian bible wants us to believe. Adam
and Eve? God making the heavens and earth and all the animals 10,000
years ago?

Look at the ignorance it spawns in our society? Kids who won't accept
evolution because the good book says otherwise? Peter at the pearly
gates? Virgin birth? Abraham was stoned on berries when he saw that
burning bush. All parables.

In American we waste energy arguing about evolution being taught in
school while the rest of the world kicks our asses by creating a high
tech workforce. Any wonder that it drives me to distraction?

I do believe in something greater than myself but it has to do with
the order of the universe and nature. Not man-made moogly boogly
based on the cosmic muffin or hairy thunderer.

Nor do I believe it's within man's capacity to fully understand, at
least not yet. The most likely path to understanding is through
science and not the kind prescribed by L Ron Hubbard.

String theory, quantum theory, elements yet to be defined in the
periodic table, studying stars and planetary systems -- is a far more
likely path to truly understanding our world, the universe and the
true nature of God.

I like to imagine humankind as connected like an Aspen Grove, through
a root system. The closer you are spritually and emotionally to a
person, the stronger the connection. I don't uinderstand how it works
nor do I need to acribe it to a "designer." It's just how it is and
maybe someday there'll be an explanation.

Whatever the true nature ends up being, It's unlikely to confirm the
suppositions of holy men who wrote parables thousands of years ago.

Gene Kearns wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:16:43 -0700 (PDT), Tim penned the following
well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

|On Jun 23, 9:10 am, Gene wrote:
| On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 06:17:34 -0400, HK wrote:
| Tim wrote:
| On Jun 23, 1:53 am, jps wrote:
| On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 23:00:13 -0700 (PDT), Tim
| wrote:
|
| On Jun 23, 12:13 am, jps wrote:
| On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 19:38:11 -0700 (PDT), Tim
| wrote:
| On Jun 22, 6:23 pm, HK wrote:
| Tim wrote:
| On Jun 22, 6:06 pm, HK wrote:
| Tim wrote:
| On Jun 22, 6:02 pm, HK wrote:
| Tim wrote:
| On Jun 22, 8:56 am, HK wrote:
| wf3h wrote:
| On Jun 22, 6:20 am, Jim24242 wrote:
| That's good news for Harry Krause, isn't it. The fear and intimidation
| you suffer at the prospect of being asked to consider a moral, ethical,
| and religious life must have you shakin in your boots
| except, of course, the s. baptists have never come close to living a
| moral ethical and religious life. the church was founded as a
| proslavery church in 1845 and has opposed freedom for anyone ever
| since...in the name of god. it's also america's leading pro-
| creationism church
| IOW it's wrong about everything.
| An absolutely backwards "bunch" of religious zealots, doing "the devil's
| work" wherever it can. That floridajim believes they're moral and
| ethical says even more about him than it does about the white southern
| baptists.
| What about the Black Southern Baptists, Harry? There's lots of them.
| Different organization.
| nope.
| Yup.
| Nope.
| and what do you think is the objective of a Southern Baptist
| "Missionary" Hospital?
| Proselytizing.
| "Proselytizing.?"
| Surely you can do better than that, Harry.
| I'd say it never occurred to you that the Christian (Catholic and
| Protestant) Churches main mission is to do the will of Jesus.
| James 2:14 Dear brothers, what's the use of saying that you have
| faith and are Christians if you aren't proving it by helping others?
| Will that kind of faith save anyone?
| James 2:15 If you have a friend who is in need of food and
| clothing, and you say to him, "Well, good-bye and God bless you;
| stay warm and eat hearty," and then don't give him clothes or food,
| what good does that do?
| James 2:17 So you see, it isn't enough just to have faith. You must
| also do good to prove that you have it. Faith that doesn't show itself
| by good works is no faith at all--it is dead and useless.
| James 2:20 Fool! When will you ever learn that "believing" is useless
| without doing what God wants you to? Faith that does not result in
| good deeds is not real faith.
| Just a few of the references Harry. But I don't expect you to believe
| any of it. It's not your nature.
| WTF do any of the above quotes have to do with missionary work or
| proselytizing on behalf of Christianity?
| It's an endeavor that seeks to enrich the organization more than
| spreading Jesus' teachings. You're supposed to live and be guided by
| his spirit, not try to sell his way.
| Anyone who has a beef with unions trying to enrich their organizations
| should have a major problem with missionaries.
| Bunch of whoey.
| My favorite is the missionaries who hunted aboriginals with the aim of
| converting them just before putting them to death in order to send
| them onto Jesus.
| ****ing insanity that continues today in a somewhat benign manner.
| Of course you would think so.
| I have good reason.
|
| More have died in the name of Jesus than any other "cause."
|
| Hmmm yeah. If that's what you wish to believe, then I suppose you
| need to stay locked in your house and not ever venture outside, and
| keep a 9mm close by. you never know when some christian will come
| knocking at your door.
|
| That's not the point, tim. The fact remains that in many underdeveloped
| countries, especially in central and south america, evangelical
| christians use the "help" they offer impoverished native peoples as a
| hook to "convert" them to the protestant form of christianity de jour.
| I have a couple of relatives by marriage who support these efforts with
| contributions and trips to these countries to "help," and I have
| listened to their tales and seen their newsletters. Well, I used
| to...they stopped telling me about these conversion efforts after I told
| them many times I thought the practice was disgusting on many levels.
| It's weird, too, because several times it was obvious that Roman
| Catholics were being converted to protestantism...apparently the simpie
| evangelicals, many of them, try to promote the idea that the Catholics
| are *not* christians.
|
| To me, evangelical christians seem very insecure in their relgious
| beliefs. Those who remain unconverted seem a threat to the born-agains.
| Reminds me of the Borg Collective from the old Star Trek shows.
| "Assimilate...resistance is futile..."
|
| Well, screw that.
|
| I have a generous helping of these screwball relatives, too...
| including clergy. I, too, hear all of the stories about people of
| "other" religions finally seeing the light and coming over to "their"
| side (especially Catholics and Jews). (A messianic Jew?? WTF??)
|
| Southern Baptists believe that it is their duty to convert everybody
| to their way of thinking....it is stated in their writings. If you
| aren't a Southern Baptist, you are not, in their eyes, a "real"
| Christian and must be saved.
|
| As for Harry's ridiculous assertion concerning the number of folks
| killed by Christians..... here's a short list:
|
| "Listed are only events that solely occurred on command or
| participation of church authorities or were committed in the name of
| Christianity. (List incomplete)
|
| Ancient Pagans
|
| As soon as Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire by imperial
| edict (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian
| mob. Pagan priests were killed.
|
| Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
|
| Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea,
| the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the
| Heliopolis.
|
| Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis
| were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
|
| Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
|
| Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed,
| because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
| According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all
| Christian teachings..."
|
| In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
|
| In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on
| demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
|
| The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to
| pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a
| Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
| [DO19-25]
|
| Mission
|
| Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to
| convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
|
| Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church
| taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain
| 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
|
| 15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by
| Knights of the Order. Number of victims unknown. [DO30]
|
| 16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized"
| Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived
| without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their
| goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more
| successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir
| Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort
| soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off
| from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side
| of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate
| terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde
| fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
| Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99,
| 225]
|
| Crusades (1095-1291)
|
| First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
|
| Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96
| thousands. [WW23]
|
| 9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then Turkish), thousands
| respectively. [WW25-27]
|
| Until January 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles
| conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
|
| After 6/3/98 Antiochia (then Turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and
| 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women and children) killed.
| [WW32-35]
| Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the
| enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their
| bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres.
| [EC60]
|
| Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the
| subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were
| eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
|
| Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (Jewish,
| Muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
| In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was
| such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of
| our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people
| marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of
| gratitude."
|
| The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look ...
|
| read more »
|
|I understand what you're saying Gene. But were these madmen truely
|Christian? I dare say not. they wore the name, but their actions
|proved differently.

From a Biblical standpoint.... they were clearly doing "their duty."
If you think that statement is even in the least sculpturally
incorrect, you *really* need to pull that Bible out and start reading
for content.

|
|"Southern Baptists believe that it is their duty to convert everybody
|to their way of thinking....it is stated in their writings. ..."
|
|Isn't that the rule with most (and I mean MOST--not all) religions?

I think it is true of the ones we should fear. The ones that demand
either conformity or to face a God imposed or sanctioned penalty.

Now, according to the courts, you can't even suggest that Christianity
is so much hokum, without being sued....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,518864,00.html


Ahh...the ayatollahs are active.

Creationism = Cretinism

On Jun 23, 6:02*pm, jps wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:16:43 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

I understand what you're saying Gene. But were these madmen truely
Christian? I dare say not. *they wore the name, but their actions
proved differently.

The only man on earth who was truly "Christian" wasn't. *He was a Jew.

He wanted to modernize the Temple and Judaism. *He didn't intend nor
did he preach for a new Temple or religion. *It was a bunch of men who
made this legacy.

Humans have a need to believe their lives have meaning, hence the
willingness to believe in the spiritual - beyond the grasp of mortals.

Bunch of hooey.

You've got one chance and there's nobody at the end who's going to
judge you other than those still alive.

Lean into it.

Lean into what?

On Jun 23, 6:04*pm, jps wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:19:41 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:



On Jun 23, 2:22*pm, jps wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 05:37:02 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

On Jun 23, 6:53*am, wf3h wrote:
On Jun 22, 10:47*am, "JustWaitAFrekinMinute!"

wrote:
On Jun 22, 8:06*am, Tim wrote:

On Jun 22, 6:50*am, wf3h wrote:

IOW it's wrong about everything.

I very much disagree with you , but I won't argue about it.

I wonder why seemingly good people, and of course assholes like Harry
feel the need to push their anti-Christian bigotry on everyone
whenever they find a remote opening, or even make one up? Why must
they shove their "religion" down our throats all the time... * * Oh,
but we can't talk about ours, that would hurt their feelings and they
would want to take us to court snerk In other words, why are they so
hypocritical?

the s. baptists are anything but christian.

If you wish to believe so.

Oh so circumspect. *It doesn't pass the smell test.

To you? probably not. But then again, that is expected.

Is that what the good book says you should think?

You tell me?

On Jun 23, 6:27*pm, jps wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:58:56 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:



On Jun 23, 5:50*pm, jps wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:21:51 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

On Jun 23, 3:39*pm, jps wrote:
You are a naive fellow if you think there isn't a debt incurred.

I know my family and I know how their mission works. Tell you what.
Why don't you go to Panama and stay for a month and see for yourself.

I have.

Yes, I'm sure it does. *Their mission works by creating a moral
dilemma for whomever is receiving the free medical attention.

This is the same way bin Laden works. *He builds schools, provides
medical care *and feeds people and in return they pledge allegiance to
his cause.

It's a very simple exchange that works very well.

bin Laden is a missionary.

You're welcome to feel that way if you wish.

His followers do. *I know the score, do you?

Which score?

On Jun 23, 8:22*pm, Gene Kearns
wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:16:43 -0700 (PDT), Tim penned the following
well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

|On Jun 23, 9:10*am, Gene wrote:
| On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 06:17:34 -0400, HK wrote:| Tim wrote:

| On Jun 23, 1:53 am, jps wrote:
| On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 23:00:13 -0700 (PDT), Tim | wrote:

|
| On Jun 23, 12:13 am, jps wrote:
| On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 19:38:11 -0700 (PDT), Tim | wrote:

| On Jun 22, 6:23 pm, HK wrote:| Tim wrote:

| On Jun 22, 6:06 pm, HK wrote:| Tim wrote:

| On Jun 22, 6:02 pm, HK wrote:| Tim wrote:

| On Jun 22, 8:56 am, HK wrote:| wf3h wrote:

| On Jun 22, 6:20 am, Jim24242 wrote:
| That's good news for Harry Krause, isn't it. The fear and intimidation
| you suffer at the prospect of being asked to consider a moral, ethical,
| and religious life must have you shakin in your boots
| except, of course, the s. baptists have never come close to living a
| moral ethical and religious life. the church was founded as a
| proslavery church in 1845 and has opposed freedom for anyone ever
| since...in the name of god. it's also america's leading pro-
| creationism church
| IOW it's wrong about everything.
| An absolutely backwards "bunch" of religious zealots, doing "the devil's
| work" wherever it can. That floridajim believes they're moral and
| ethical says even more about him than it does about the white southern
| baptists.
| What about the Black Southern Baptists, Harry? *There's lots of them.
| Different organization.
| nope.
| Yup.
| Nope.
| and what do you think is the objective of a Southern Baptist
| "Missionary" Hospital?
| Proselytizing.
| "Proselytizing.?"
| Surely you can do better than that, Harry.
| I'd say it never occurred to you that the Christian (Catholic and
| Protestant) *Churches main mission is to do the will of Jesus..
| *James 2:14 * Dear brothers, what's the use of saying that you have
| faith and are Christians if you aren't proving it by helping others?
| Will that kind of faith save anyone?
| James 2:15 *If you have a friend who is in need of food and
| clothing, * and you say to him, "Well, good-bye and God bless you;
| stay warm and eat hearty," and then don't give him clothes or food,
| what good does that do?
| James 2:17 So you see, it isn't enough just to have faith. You must
| also do good to prove that you have it. Faith that doesn't show itself
| by good works is no faith at all--it is dead and useless.
| James 2:20 Fool! When will you ever learn that "believing" is useless
| without doing what God wants you to? Faith that does not result in
| good deeds is not real faith.
| Just a few of the references Harry. But I don't expect you to believe
| any of it. It's not your nature.
| WTF do any of the above quotes have to do with missionary work or
| proselytizing on behalf of Christianity?
| It's an endeavor that seeks to enrich the organization more than
| spreading Jesus' teachings. *You're supposed to live and be guided by
| his spirit, not try to sell his way.
| Anyone who has a beef with unions trying to enrich their organizations
| should have a major problem with missionaries.
| Bunch of whoey.
| My favorite is the missionaries who hunted aboriginals with the aim of
| converting them just before putting them to death in order to send
| them onto Jesus.
| ****ing insanity that continues today in a somewhat benign manner.

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:08:33 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:


read more »

Sorry Gene, but you had too much text for me to dig though. and I
really didn't feel like loading another page.
But thanks for thinking of me.

More likely he was thinking of the royal you.