On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:58:56 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

On Jun 23, 5:50*pm, jps wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:21:51 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

On Jun 23, 3:39*pm, jps wrote:
You are a naive fellow if you think there isn't a debt incurred.

I know my family and I know how their mission works. Tell you what.
Why don't you go to Panama and stay for a month and see for yourself.

I have.

Yes, I'm sure it does. *Their mission works by creating a moral
dilemma for whomever is receiving the free medical attention.

This is the same way bin Laden works. *He builds schools, provides
medical care *and feeds people and in return they pledge allegiance to
his cause.

It's a very simple exchange that works very well.

bin Laden is a missionary.

You're welcome to feel that way if you wish.

His followers do. I know the score, do you?

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:00:02 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

On Jun 23, 5:54*pm, jps wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:18:23 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:



On Jun 23, 1:29*pm, jps wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:10:29 -0400, Gene

wrote:
I have good reason.

More have died in the name of Jesus than any other "cause."

Hmmm *yeah. If that's what you wish to believe, then I suppose you
need to stay locked in your house and not ever venture outside, and
keep a 9mm close by. you never know when some christian will come
knocking at your door.
killed by Christians..... here's a short list:

"Listed are only events that solely occurred on command or
participation of church authorities or were committed in the name of
Christianity. (List incomplete)

Snipped...

Tim? *Where are you Tim? *Hello?

Thanks Gene.

Working from 7:30 AM to 5:15PM *today

Well then, you'll have time to address Gene's post later or tomorrow?

More people have died in the name of Jesus than in any cause in
history.

Man cannot be trusted to interpret God. *You included.

Thank you. I don't demand your trust.

Nor should you trust yourself in such matters. You're human.

Tim wrote:
On Jun 23, 9:10 am, Gene wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 06:17:34 -0400, HK wrote:
Tim wrote:
On Jun 23, 1:53 am, jps wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 23:00:13 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:
On Jun 23, 12:13 am, jps wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 19:38:11 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:
On Jun 22, 6:23 pm, HK wrote:
Tim wrote:
On Jun 22, 6:06 pm, HK wrote:
Tim wrote:
On Jun 22, 6:02 pm, HK wrote:
Tim wrote:
On Jun 22, 8:56 am, HK wrote:
wf3h wrote:
On Jun 22, 6:20 am, Jim24242 wrote:
That's good news for Harry Krause, isn't it. The fear and intimidation
you suffer at the prospect of being asked to consider a moral, ethical,
and religious life must have you shakin in your boots
except, of course, the s. baptists have never come close to living a
moral ethical and religious life. the church was founded as a
proslavery church in 1845 and has opposed freedom for anyone ever
since...in the name of god. it's also america's leading pro-
creationism church
IOW it's wrong about everything.
An absolutely backwards "bunch" of religious zealots, doing "the devil's
work" wherever it can. That floridajim believes they're moral and
ethical says even more about him than it does about the white southern
baptists.
What about the Black Southern Baptists, Harry? There's lots of them.
Different organization.
nope.
Yup.
Nope.
and what do you think is the objective of a Southern Baptist
"Missionary" Hospital?
Proselytizing.
"Proselytizing.?"
Surely you can do better than that, Harry.
I'd say it never occurred to you that the Christian (Catholic and
Protestant) Churches main mission is to do the will of Jesus.
James 2:14 Dear brothers, what's the use of saying that you have
faith and are Christians if you aren't proving it by helping others?
Will that kind of faith save anyone?
James 2:15 If you have a friend who is in need of food and
clothing, and you say to him, "Well, good-bye and God bless you;
stay warm and eat hearty," and then don't give him clothes or food,
what good does that do?
James 2:17 So you see, it isn't enough just to have faith. You must
also do good to prove that you have it. Faith that doesn't show itself
by good works is no faith at all--it is dead and useless.
James 2:20 Fool! When will you ever learn that "believing" is useless
without doing what God wants you to? Faith that does not result in
good deeds is not real faith.
Just a few of the references Harry. But I don't expect you to believe
any of it. It's not your nature.
WTF do any of the above quotes have to do with missionary work or
proselytizing on behalf of Christianity?
It's an endeavor that seeks to enrich the organization more than
spreading Jesus' teachings. You're supposed to live and be guided by
his spirit, not try to sell his way.
Anyone who has a beef with unions trying to enrich their organizations
should have a major problem with missionaries.
Bunch of whoey.
My favorite is the missionaries who hunted aboriginals with the aim of
converting them just before putting them to death in order to send
them onto Jesus.
****ing insanity that continues today in a somewhat benign manner.
Of course you would think so.
I have good reason.
More have died in the name of Jesus than any other "cause."
Hmmm yeah. If that's what you wish to believe, then I suppose you
need to stay locked in your house and not ever venture outside, and
keep a 9mm close by. you never know when some christian will come
knocking at your door.
That's not the point, tim. The fact remains that in many underdeveloped
countries, especially in central and south america, evangelical
christians use the "help" they offer impoverished native peoples as a
hook to "convert" them to the protestant form of christianity de jour.
I have a couple of relatives by marriage who support these efforts with
contributions and trips to these countries to "help," and I have
listened to their tales and seen their newsletters. Well, I used
to...they stopped telling me about these conversion efforts after I told
them many times I thought the practice was disgusting on many levels.
It's weird, too, because several times it was obvious that Roman
Catholics were being converted to protestantism...apparently the simpie
evangelicals, many of them, try to promote the idea that the Catholics
are *not* christians.
To me, evangelical christians seem very insecure in their relgious
beliefs. Those who remain unconverted seem a threat to the born-agains.
Reminds me of the Borg Collective from the old Star Trek shows.
"Assimilate...resistance is futile..."
Well, screw that.
I have a generous helping of these screwball relatives, too...
including clergy. I, too, hear all of the stories about people of
"other" religions finally seeing the light and coming over to "their"
side (especially Catholics and Jews). (A messianic Jew?? WTF??)

Southern Baptists believe that it is their duty to convert everybody
to their way of thinking....it is stated in their writings. If you
aren't a Southern Baptist, you are not, in their eyes, a "real"
Christian and must be saved.

As for Harry's ridiculous assertion concerning the number of folks
killed by Christians..... here's a short list:

"Listed are only events that solely occurred on command or
participation of church authorities or were committed in the name of
Christianity. (List incomplete)

Ancient Pagans

As soon as Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire by imperial
edict (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian
mob. Pagan priests were killed.

Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.

Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea,
the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the
Heliopolis.

Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis
were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]

Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]

Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed,
because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all
Christian teachings..."

In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.

In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on
demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]

The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to
pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a
Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
[DO19-25]

Mission

Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to
convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]

Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church
taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain
5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]

15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by
Knights of the Order. Number of victims unknown. [DO30]

16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized"
Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived
without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their
goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more
successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir
Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort
soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off
from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side
of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate
terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde
fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99,
225]

Crusades (1095-1291)

First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]

Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96
thousands. [WW23]

9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then Turkish), thousands
respectively. [WW25-27]

Until January 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles
conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]

After 6/3/98 Antiochia (then Turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and
60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women and children) killed.
[WW32-35]
Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the
enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their
bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres.
[EC60]

Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the
subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were
eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]

Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (Jewish,
Muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was
such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of
our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people
marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of
gratitude."

The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look ...

read more »

I understand what you're saying Gene. But were these madmen truely
Christian? I dare say not. they wore the name, but their actions
proved differently.


"Southern Baptists believe that it is their duty to convert everybody
to their way of thinking....it is stated in their writings. ..."

Isn't that the rule with most (and I mean MOST--not all) religions?

There we go...the old apologetica for misbehaving christians..."But were
these madmen truly christian"?

You betcha they were.

Oh...from what I have read, Jews have no interest in converting.

Tim wrote:
On Jun 23, 1:34 pm, HK wrote:
jps wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:10:29 -0400, Gene
wrote:
I have good reason.
More have died in the name of Jesus than any other "cause."
Hmmm yeah. If that's what you wish to believe, then I suppose you
need to stay locked in your house and not ever venture outside, and
keep a 9mm close by. you never know when some christian will come
knocking at your door.
killed by Christians..... here's a short list:
"Listed are only events that solely occurred on command or
participation of church authorities or were committed in the name of
Christianity. (List incomplete)
Snipped...
Tim? Where are you Tim? Hello?
Thanks Gene.
A typical response from the christian sectists: "oh, those people who
killed all those other people weren't *real* christians."

snerk

Exactly Harry. Do you know of ANY order that Jesus made to persecute
others?


I don't think so.


What has jesus to do with christianity? He was jewish.

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:28:50 -0700, jps wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:00:02 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:


Man cannot be trusted to interpret God. Â*You included.

Thank you. I don't demand your trust.

Nor should you trust yourself in such matters. You're human.

But he's sure not a dime store psychoanalyst.
I'm pretty confident Tim has a real good handle on who he is,
and who he should trust.

--Vic

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 08:41:56 -0400, Jim24242
wrote:

Don White wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
m...
Tim wrote:
On Jun 23, 5:17 am, HK wrote:
That's not the point, tim. The fact remains that in many underdeveloped
countries, especially in central and south america, evangelical
christians use the "help" they offer impoverished native peoples as a
hook to "convert" them to the protestant form of christianity de jour.
I have a couple of relatives by marriage who support these efforts with
contributions and trips to these countries to "help," and I have
listened to their tales and seen their newsletters. Well, I used
to...they stopped telling me about these conversion efforts after I told
them many times I thought the practice was disgusting on many levels.
It's weird, too, because several times it was obvious that Roman
Catholics were being converted to protestantism...apparently the simpie
evangelicals, many of them, try to promote the idea that the Catholics
are *not* christians.

To me, evangelical christians seem very insecure in their relgious
beliefs. Those who remain unconverted seem a threat to the born-agains.
Reminds me of the Borg Collective from the old Star Trek shows.
"Assimilate...resistance is futile..."

Well, screw that.
harry, I have a brother and sister-in-law who have done the same in
Panama for years. sister-in-law is a dentist/LPN who has worked very
extensively with Guaymi indians for years. My brother builds clinics
and church's (Oops". I meant to say "COMPOUNDS!") their kids come up
here and finish high school then go back. My family members have no
insecurity in their faith. Of course they're not really living in a
hostile part of the world. Harry, for those who feel threatened by
Christianity. I feel sorry for.


If people like like my family members don't do anything to help who
they do. Then who will? the government?

Gee, tim...i dunno. My dentist is gone in july and august (his partners
handle emergencies) every year. He goes to underserved asian countries
(he's korean) to fix the teeth of kids who have no way to pay for such
services. He sure as hell isn't serving up religion with his dentistry.

Sorry, tim, but I am no fan of evangelizing, *especially* among
unsophisticated native populations.

I am sure the Ngäbe appreciate the dental work, and they'd probably
appreciate it more without the efforts of evangelicals to sell them jesus
and in the process destroy their culture.

It does give the impression of bribing or blackmailing. The poor people
need the health care and will sell their souls to the highest bidder for
that care.



Sometimes the promise of hope and change is enough to sway them.

Why does that sound so familiar?
--

John H

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:10:29 -0400, Gene
wrote:



I have a generous helping of these screwball relatives, too...
including clergy. I, too, hear all of the stories about people of
"other" religions finally seeing the light and coming over to "their"
side (especially Catholics and Jews). (A messianic Jew?? WTF??)

Southern Baptists believe that it is their duty to convert everybody
to their way of thinking....it is stated in their writings. If you
aren't a Southern Baptist, you are not, in their eyes, a "real"
Christian and must be saved.

As for Harry's ridiculous assertion concerning the number of folks
killed by Christians..... here's a short list:

Harry will love you.
--

John H

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:36:18 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:28:50 -0700, jps wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:00:02 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:


Man cannot be trusted to interpret God. *You included.

Thank you. I don't demand your trust.

Nor should you trust yourself in such matters. You're human.

But he's sure not a dime store psychoanalyst.
I'm pretty confident Tim has a real good handle on who he is,
and who he should trust.

--Vic

Let's agree to not agree.

"jps" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:36:18 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:28:50 -0700, jps wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:00:02 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:


Man cannot be trusted to interpret God. You included.

Thank you. I don't demand your trust.

Nor should you trust yourself in such matters. You're human.

But he's sure not a dime store psychoanalyst.
I'm pretty confident Tim has a real good handle on who he is,
and who he should trust.

--Vic

Let's agree to not agree.


I think you serve a very useful function here, jps. For those of us that
may occasionally start to stray and question ourselves, you very clearly and
concisely redefine the standards of normalcy and becoming a nut case.

For that, I thank you.

Eisboch

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 20:04:44 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"jps" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:36:18 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:28:50 -0700, jps wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:00:02 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:


Man cannot be trusted to interpret God. You included.

Thank you. I don't demand your trust.

Nor should you trust yourself in such matters. You're human.

But he's sure not a dime store psychoanalyst.
I'm pretty confident Tim has a real good handle on who he is,
and who he should trust.

--Vic

Let's agree to not agree.


I think you serve a very useful function here, jps. For those of us that
may occasionally start to stray and question ourselves, you very clearly and
concisely redefine the standards of normalcy and becoming a nut case.

For that, I thank you.

Eisboch

I must have hurt your feelings. I'm sorry.