On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:47:06 -0400, HK wrote:

There are many factors involved in the demise of the Big Three. All of
them are attributable to bad management.

What they did that was guaranteed fatal was offer bad product. Lincoln
offered an SUV based on the Ford F-150 truck. So far so good, although
the Navigator rides like the soft sprung truck it is. My question is
why does it need an expensive four cam 32 valve motor? It is no more
powerful than a pushrod motor the same size. 8000 rpm valve train on a
5000 rpm mill. The motor might look cool, but it so buried under
accessories that you can barely see it. Two hours to change the plugs,
not the two minutes a flathead takes. Luckily they look good after 100
000 miles.

Casady

On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:46:35 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:47:06 -0400, HK wrote:

There are many factors involved in the demise of the Big Three. All of
them are attributable to bad management.

What they did that was guaranteed fatal was offer bad product. Lincoln
offered an SUV based on the Ford F-150 truck. So far so good, although
the Navigator rides like the soft sprung truck it is. My question is
why does it need an expensive four cam 32 valve motor? It is no more
powerful than a pushrod motor the same size. 8000 rpm valve train on a
5000 rpm mill. The motor might look cool, but it so buried under
accessories that you can barely see it. Two hours to change the plugs,
not the two minutes a flathead takes. Luckily they look good after 100
000 miles.

Main reason for DOHC is car geeks buy them.
That's pretty much it.
You can get into all kinds of arguments about valve train slack,
aspiration, cylinder head combustion gas flow, better 60-70 mph
passing speeds, etc.
But the reason they sell is car geeks buy them.

--Vic

Richard Casady wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:47:06 -0400, HK wrote:

There are many factors involved in the demise of the Big Three. All of
them are attributable to bad management.

What they did that was guaranteed fatal was offer bad product. Lincoln
offered an SUV based on the Ford F-150 truck. So far so good, although
the Navigator rides like the soft sprung truck it is. My question is
why does it need an expensive four cam 32 valve motor? It is no more
powerful than a pushrod motor the same size. 8000 rpm valve train on a
5000 rpm mill. The motor might look cool, but it so buried under
accessories that you can barely see it. Two hours to change the plugs,
not the two minutes a flathead takes. Luckily they look good after 100
000 miles.

When you are paying $15,000 more for a Navigator than an Expedition you
have to get something for your money. Eight extra valves and some gaudy
chrome seems a good trade off for $15,000.

Richard Casady wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:47:06 -0400, HK wrote:

There are many factors involved in the demise of the Big Three. All of
them are attributable to bad management.

You think the unions are blameless? It cost 75 an hour to have a guy
tighten lug nuts.

Casady


The number you are quoting rolls in the health care and retirement costs
of retired workers. The actual hourly rate for a new hire autoworker is
much, much lower than that.

Possibly you do not understand the role of a labor union. Its job is to
defend its members and negotiate for them the best possible wages,
benefits, hours, and working conditions. In recent years, those
negotiations have been aimed at making it possible for workers and
retirees to have decent family health care and a decent retirement.

Had GM, the other automakers, and the corporate employers of other
workers in manufacturing fields embraced the concept of taxpayer-paid
health care and retirement for workers, as most other modern nations
have, the hourly cost for assembly line workers would not be nearly as
high as it is now.

Most conservatives seem to want blue collar workers and construction
workers to toil for crap wages, without any benefits for health care and
pension. If that is the way this country goes, well, it isn't worth
salvaging.

Richard Casady wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:47:06 -0400, HK wrote:

There are many factors involved in the demise of the Big Three. All of
them are attributable to bad management.

What they did that was guaranteed fatal was offer bad product. Lincoln
offered an SUV based on the Ford F-150 truck. So far so good, although
the Navigator rides like the soft sprung truck it is. My question is
why does it need an expensive four cam 32 valve motor? It is no more
powerful than a pushrod motor the same size. 8000 rpm valve train on a
5000 rpm mill. The motor might look cool, but it so buried under
accessories that you can barely see it. Two hours to change the plugs,
not the two minutes a flathead takes. Luckily they look good after 100
000 miles.

Casady


"...attributable to bad management."

On Jun 2, 12:10*pm, HK wrote:
Richard Casady wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:47:06 -0400, HK wrote:

There are many factors involved in the demise of the Big Three. All of
them are attributable to bad management.

You think the unions are blameless? It cost 75 an hour to have a guy
tighten lug nuts.

Casady

Most conservatives seem to want blue collar workers and construction
workers to toil for crap wages, without any benefits for health care and
pension. If that is the way this country goes, well, it isn't worth
salvaging.

This from the person who almost daily has something to say about
someone who chose a career path that they didn't need a degree to
persue, or didn't have the resources to obtain a degree that they
could use. SO, same with the union workers. If they don't want to toil
for crap wages, then go to school. I don't know of one union worker
who has been forced to take the job he's on.

On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:56:26 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Main reason for DOHC is car geeks buy them.
That's pretty much it.
You can get into all kinds of arguments about valve train slack,
aspiration, cylinder head combustion gas flow, better 60-70 mph
passing speeds, etc.
But the reason they sell is car geeks buy them.

Car geek and Lincoln do not go on the same page.

Casady

On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 11:56:27 -0400, BAR wrote:

When you are paying $15,000 more for a Navigator than an Expedition you
have to get something for your money. Eight extra valves and some gaudy
chrome seems a good trade off for $15,000.

Sixteen extra valves. And there is not much chrome.They used the
existing Lincoln mill, not one cooked up to justify the higher cost
than the Ford. The question is why does any Lincoln need that. The
mill would look cool, if you could only see it. Remember the Jags with
the DOHC inline six? They looked cool. The Lincoln is fender to fender
grill to firewall accessories. Like the kitty practical joke laundry
basket with the towels covering up the dog.

Casady

Richard Casady wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 11:56:27 -0400, BAR wrote:

When you are paying $15,000 more for a Navigator than an Expedition you
have to get something for your money. Eight extra valves and some gaudy
chrome seems a good trade off for $15,000.

Sixteen extra valves. And there is not much chrome.They used the
existing Lincoln mill, not one cooked up to justify the higher cost
than the Ford. The question is why does any Lincoln need that. The
mill would look cool, if you could only see it. Remember the Jags with
the DOHC inline six? They looked cool. The Lincoln is fender to fender
grill to firewall accessories. Like the kitty practical joke laundry
basket with the towels covering up the dog.

Isn't the stanard 5.4L three valves per cylinder now?

Richard Casady wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:56:26 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Main reason for DOHC is car geeks buy them.
That's pretty much it.
You can get into all kinds of arguments about valve train slack,
aspiration, cylinder head combustion gas flow, better 60-70 mph
passing speeds, etc.
But the reason they sell is car geeks buy them.

Car geek and Lincoln do not go on the same page.

Casady


Work a stain that looks like jesus on them, and then sell 'em on eBay
for $1000 each.