Those Spend but Don't Pay for It Republicans
jps wrote:
"Dave Hall" wrote in message ... jps wrote: With $166 billion spent or requested, Bush's war spending in 2003 and 2004 already exceeds the inflation-adjusted costs of the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Mexican War, the Civil War, the Spanish American War and the Persian Gulf War combined, according to a study by Yale University economist William D. Nordhaus. The Iraq war approaches the $191 billion inflation-adjusted cost of World War I Yep, you're right. This dang war is just too expensive. We should just stop right now. Pull out, tuck our tails between our legs and return home. We should then send a broadcast out to all terrorists to please not attack us, since not only do we not have the resolve to fight back, we also don't have the money..... Can you say "open season"? sure you can....... Dave Should've had better information going in. We were in a rush to avoid the hot weather. That's a given. They did underestimate the resolve of terrorists operating in the shadows. But ok, so sue me. What do you expect? No plan is perfect. Bad estimates on WMDs, That remains to be seen. It's still a BIG desert out there. Syria's even bigger. bad estimates of oil revenues, bad estimates of Iraq infrastructure -- even though we had people on the ground in Iraq for months prior to invasion. None of which took into account the acts of sabotage which are still going on. Look, it seems that you guys are holding Bush to a super-human ability to see all, and know all. The fact is that no matter who is at the helm, they rely on information provided to them by people trained to do their jobs. I'm not going to go into the problems which resulted from the decimation of the intelligence communities at the hands of democrats, who would rather give the money to slackers, than invest in the means to protect our country, as this is water over the dam now. But you can't fully fault the Bush administration, without giving some consideration to who was feeding his people the intel. This administration are pie in the sky enthusiasts. They should be restricted to running paint ball wars. Slinging rocks, when you don't know the full story is being irresponsible. Slinging rocks and finding fault while not offering workable alternatives is equally irresponsible. Any moron can blame Bush for everything from the Iraq war, to the economy, to the spreading of AIDS in Africa. But unless you can elaborate the steps in which you can realistically correct these problems, then you have no business weighing in on the situation. As a manager I once knew said, "we don't need more problems, we need solutions". Then they could clean up with a little soap and water instead of putting our country in deep **** and in hawk up to our ears. Time for another tax cut Dave? Hey, let's see. I've got a grand total of $1000 dollars back in lump sum payments. I'm also paying about $800 a year less in federal taxes. That means that I have more money than I had before. I'm not about to complain. Better in my pocket, than the government's. Dave |
Those Spend but Don't Pay for It Republicans
"WaIIy" wrote in message
... On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 16:20:55 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: "jps" wrote in message ... This administration are pie in the sky enthusiasts. They should be restricted to running paint ball wars. Remember, this is the president who, when asked during his campaign what his pastimes were, told reporters he spent a couple of hours a day playing video games. And, when asked about his reading habits, said he read the newspapers, but not much else. Lights on, nobody home. That's why he has an MBA, idiot. MBAs are a dime a dozen, idiot, and are of increasingly LESS value to employers, compared to 20 years ago. The degree doesn't grant you common sense, nor does it help you choose your associates more carefully. |
Those Spend but Don't Pay for It Republicans
"WaIIy" wrote in message
... On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 18:14:02 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: "WaIIy" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 17:47:43 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: MBAs are a dime a dozen, idiot, and are of increasingly LESS value to employers, compared to 20 years ago. The degree doesn't grant you common sense, nor does it help you choose your associates more carefully. Aside from your obsessive posting style, where is your MBA from or perhaps your "dozen". University of Rochester. Next question? Do you regard your degree as "a dime a dozen"? If so, why bother? There is no college degree available anywhere which guarantees performance. President Nookular is proof of that. As far as how much value I place on MY degree, it was a luxury that pleased my employer, who paid for it. But my monetary advances have had little or nothing to do with that, and everything to do with creativity. Finally, do NOT, under any circumstances, lump your president into the same category as the typical college graduate. That's an insult to everyone involved in this discussion. |
Those Spend but Don't Pay for It Republicans
Dave Hall wrote:
Hey, let's see. I've got a grand total of $1000 dollars back in lump sum payments. I'm also paying about $800 a year less in federal taxes. That means that I have more money than I had before. I'm not about to complain. Better in my pocket, than the government's. Dave Pretty soon, Dave, you'll be up to the poverty level. -- * * * email sent to will *never* get to me. |
Those Spend but Don't Pay for It Republicans
"Dave Hall" wrote in message ... jps wrote: "Dave Hall" wrote in message ... jps wrote: With $166 billion spent or requested, Bush's war spending in 2003 and 2004 already exceeds the inflation-adjusted costs of the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Mexican War, the Civil War, the Spanish American War and the Persian Gulf War combined, according to a study by Yale University economist William D. Nordhaus. The Iraq war approaches the $191 billion inflation-adjusted cost of World War I Yep, you're right. This dang war is just too expensive. We should just stop right now. Pull out, tuck our tails between our legs and return home. We should then send a broadcast out to all terrorists to please not attack us, since not only do we not have the resolve to fight back, we also don't have the money..... Can you say "open season"? sure you can....... Dave Should've had better information going in. We were in a rush to avoid the hot weather. That's a given. They did underestimate the resolve of terrorists operating in the shadows. But ok, so sue me. What do you expect? No plan is perfect. Bad estimates on WMDs, That remains to be seen. It's still a BIG desert out there. Syria's even bigger. bad estimates of oil revenues, bad estimates of Iraq infrastructure -- even though we had people on the ground in Iraq for months prior to invasion. None of which took into account the acts of sabotage which are still going on. Look, it seems that you guys are holding Bush to a super-human ability to see all, and know all. The fact is that no matter who is at the helm, they rely on information provided to them by people trained to do their jobs. I'm not going to go into the problems which resulted from the decimation of the intelligence communities at the hands of democrats, who would rather give the money to slackers, than invest in the means to protect our country, as this is water over the dam now. But you can't fully fault the Bush administration, without giving some consideration to who was feeding his people the intel. This administration are pie in the sky enthusiasts. They should be restricted to running paint ball wars. Slinging rocks, when you don't know the full story is being irresponsible. Slinging rocks and finding fault while not offering workable alternatives is equally irresponsible. Any moron can blame Bush for everything from the Iraq war, to the economy, to the spreading of AIDS in Africa. But unless you can elaborate the steps in which you can realistically correct these problems, then you have no business weighing in on the situation. As a manager I once knew said, "we don't need more problems, we need solutions". While some seem suprised that things would turn out the way they did, I have been consitantly predicting that things would happen pretty much the way they did. Before the war started, while it was still possible to manage costs, I was saying that we would have to pay large costs if we marched into a needless war. I listed financal costs, requirements for long term comitments, loss of life, failure of the Iraqis to embrace our vision for them, and possible myhem while our forces are engaged. Fortunately, the last item has not come to pass yet, but it is a very real possibility. All this is a matter of public record: http://www.google.com/groups?q=group...m=325&filter=0 http://www.google.com/groups?q=group...242H6.1262%40s ccrnsc04&rnum=342&filter=0 http://www.google.com/groups?q=group...m=341&filter=0 Much of the current problems had been demonstrated in Vietnam. If you take the time to look for the parralells and lessons of history it is very easy to predict a protracted resistance. http://www.google.com/groups?q=group...m=333&filter=0 After the war started, it was easy to see you it would go and the problems that seem to have cought the administration by suprize. The costs were already clear to anybody willing to do the math. Knowegable generals were already predicting the need for large number of forces to pacify the population. The best the right could come up with was to claim were were all wrong, and that the leadership had some sort of special knowlge not available to the general population. http://www.google.com/groups?q=group...m=304&filter=0 http://www.google.com/groups?q=group...m=302&filter=0 I told yuou so! snip Time for another tax cut Dave? Hey, let's see. I've got a grand total of $1000 dollars back in lump sum payments. I'm also paying about $800 a year less in federal taxes. That means that I have more money than I had before. I'm not about to complain. Better in my pocket, than the government's. So your common sense can be bought for a few peices of silver; why am I not suprized? Mark Browne |
Those Spend but Don't Pay for It Republicans (with spell check)
Sorry for the spelling on the prior post, I hit send instead of spell check.
"Dave Hall" wrote in message ... jps wrote: "Dave Hall" wrote in message ... jps wrote: With $166 billion spent or requested, Bush's war spending in 2003 and 2004 already exceeds the inflation-adjusted costs of the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Mexican War, the Civil War, the Spanish American War and the Persian Gulf War combined, according to a study by Yale University economist William D. Nordhaus. The Iraq war approaches the $191 billion inflation-adjusted cost of World War I Yep, you're right. This dang war is just too expensive. We should just stop right now. Pull out, tuck our tails between our legs and return home. We should then send a broadcast out to all terrorists to please not attack us, since not only do we not have the resolve to fight back, we also don't have the money..... Can you say "open season"? sure you can....... Dave Should've had better information going in. We were in a rush to avoid the hot weather. That's a given. They did underestimate the resolve of terrorists operating in the shadows. But ok, so sue me. What do you expect? No plan is perfect. Bad estimates on WMDs, That remains to be seen. It's still a BIG desert out there. Syria's even bigger. bad estimates of oil revenues, bad estimates of Iraq infrastructure -- even though we had people on the ground in Iraq for months prior to invasion. None of which took into account the acts of sabotage which are still going on. Look, it seems that you guys are holding Bush to a super-human ability to see all, and know all. The fact is that no matter who is at the helm, they rely on information provided to them by people trained to do their jobs. I'm not going to go into the problems which resulted from the decimation of the intelligence communities at the hands of democrats, who would rather give the money to slackers, than invest in the means to protect our country, as this is water over the dam now. But you can't fully fault the Bush administration, without giving some consideration to who was feeding his people the intel. This administration are pie in the sky enthusiasts. They should be restricted to running paint ball wars. Slinging rocks, when you don't know the full story is being irresponsible. Slinging rocks and finding fault while not offering workable alternatives is equally irresponsible. Any moron can blame Bush for everything from the Iraq war, to the economy, to the spreading of AIDS in Africa. But unless you can elaborate the steps in which you can realistically correct these problems, then you have no business weighing in on the situation. As a manager I once knew said, "we don't need more problems, we need solutions". While some seem surprised that things would turn out the way they did, I have been consistently predicting that things would happen pretty much the way they did. Before the war started, while it was still possible to manage costs, I was saying that we would have to pay large costs if we marched into a needless war. I listed financial costs, requirements for long term commitments, loss of life, failure of the Iraqis to embrace our vision for them, and possible mayhem while our forces are engaged. Fortunately, the last item has not come to pass yet, but it is still a very real possibility. All this is a matter of public record: http://www.google.com/groups?q=group...m=325&filter=0 http://www.google.com/groups?q=group...m=342&filter=0 http://www.google.com/groups?q=group...m=341&filter=0 Much of the current problems had been demonstrated in Vietnam. If you take the time to look for the parallels and lessons of history it is very easy to predict a protracted resistance. http://www.google.com/groups?q=group...m=333&filter=0 After the war started, it was easy to see how it would go and the problems that seem to have caught the administration by surprise. The costs were already clear to anybody willing to do the math. Knowledgeable generals were already predicting the need for large number of forces to pacify the population. The best the right could come up with was to claim that we were all wrong, and that the leadership had some sort of special knowledge not available to the general population. Now we know more about this "special intelligence" - wishful thinking and willful ignorance of the facts. http://www.google.com/groups?q=group...m=304&filter=0 http://www.google.com/groups?q=group...m=302&filter=0 I told you so! snip Time for another tax cut Dave? Hey, let's see. I've got a grand total of $1000 dollars back in lump sum payments. I'm also paying about $800 a year less in federal taxes. That means that I have more money than I had before. I'm not about to complain. Better in my pocket, than the government's. So your common sense can be bought for a few pieces of silver; why am I not surprised? Mark Browne |
Those Spend but Don't Pay for It Republicans
Stop posting political crap here!
"Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Mark Browne" wrote in message news:0Hu7b.404385$YN5.267637@sccrnsc01... Much of the current problems had been demonstrated in Vietnam. If you take the time to look for the parralells and lessons of history it is very easy to predict a protracted resistance. Don't hold your breath, Mark. We have a president who, when asked about his reading habits, said "I read the newspapers". And, we have voters like Dave Hall who, when presented with the idea of learning about history (so we don't repeat mistakes), claim that history books are of limited use because they're either "just someone's interpretation", or because they don't know the author, so they assume he/she is a "left winger". That leaves nothing but faith, which has no place in politics. |
Those Spend but Don't Pay for It Republicans
Mark Browne wrote:
Slinging rocks, when you don't know the full story is being irresponsible. Slinging rocks and finding fault while not offering workable alternatives is equally irresponsible. Any moron can blame Bush for everything from the Iraq war, to the economy, to the spreading of AIDS in Africa. But unless you can elaborate the steps in which you can realistically correct these problems, then you have no business weighing in on the situation. As a manager I once knew said, "we don't need more problems, we need solutions". While some seem suprised that things would turn out the way they did, I have been consitantly predicting that things would happen pretty much the way they did. One could chalk that up to "chicken little" pessimism. Before the war started, while it was still possible to manage costs, I was saying that we would have to pay large costs if we marched into a needless war. I listed financal costs, requirements for long term comitments, loss of life, failure of the Iraqis to embrace our vision for them, and possible myhem while our forces are engaged. Fortunately, the last item has not come to pass yet, but it is a very real possibility. It will be a dark day in American history, when we back our of a just cause because we're afraid of the costs. The former soviet union lost the cold war, simply becasue they could not keep up with our technology, from a finacial standpoint. They couldn't afford the war any more. War is not cheap, war is not pretty, war in not fun. But sometimes war is necessary. I believe that now is one of those times. The terrorists belive (as you do evidently) that Americans will not go the long road, becasue of financial worries. All they have to do to win this war, is to outlast our resolve. Should we prove them right? What would the effect of that do to our security in the long run? Much of the current problems had been demonstrated in Vietnam. If you take the time to look for the parralells and lessons of history it is very easy to predict a protracted resistance. We can draw similar parallels to Hitler and WW2. What do you think our world would be like today, if we didn't get involved because we did'nt want to invest the money? After the war started, it was easy to see you it would go and the problems that seem to have cought the administration by suprize. The costs were already clear to anybody willing to do the math. Once again, the cost should be secondary to the necessity. Knowegable generals were already predicting the need for large number of forces to pacify the population. The best the right could come up with was to claim were were all wrong, and that the leadership had some sort of special knowlge not available to the general population. We haven't been there for even 7 months yet. How many other major wars have we ever won in as short of time? I think many of you guys are far too impatient. Hey, let's see. I've got a grand total of $1000 dollars back in lump sum payments. I'm also paying about $800 a year less in federal taxes. That means that I have more money than I had before. I'm not about to complain. Better in my pocket, than the government's. So your common sense can be bought for a few peices of silver; why am I not suprized? Nothing to do with common sense. I just feel that I am a better judge of what to do with MY money, than the government is. Dave |
Those Spend but Don't Pay for It Republicans
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Mark Browne" wrote in message news:0Hu7b.404385$YN5.267637@sccrnsc01... Much of the current problems had been demonstrated in Vietnam. If you take the time to look for the parralells and lessons of history it is very easy to predict a protracted resistance. Don't hold your breath, Mark. We have a president who, when asked about his reading habits, said "I read the newspapers". And, we have voters like Dave Hall who, when presented with the idea of learning about history (so we don't repeat mistakes), claim that history books are of limited use because they're either "just someone's interpretation", or because they don't know the author, so they assume he/she is a "left winger". I see many historical parallels. Saddam versus Hitler. When we entered the second world war, we removed a cancer on humanity. The same can be said for Saddam. Vietnam is not the end all rationale, for never getting involved in another war. Dave That leaves nothing but faith, which has no place in politics. |
Those Spend but Don't Pay for It Republicans
"Dave Hall" wrote in message ... Mark Browne wrote: Slinging rocks, when you don't know the full story is being irresponsible. Slinging rocks and finding fault while not offering workable alternatives is equally irresponsible. Any moron can blame Bush for everything from the Iraq war, to the economy, to the spreading of AIDS in Africa. But unless you can elaborate the steps in which you can realistically correct these problems, then you have no business weighing in on the situation. As a manager I once knew said, "we don't need more problems, we need solutions". While some seem suprised that things would turn out the way they did, I have been consitantly predicting that things would happen pretty much the way they did. One could chalk that up to "chicken little" pessimism. Or an understanding of the issues involved. Before the war started, while it was still possible to manage costs, I was saying that we would have to pay large costs if we marched into a needless war. I listed financal costs, requirements for long term comitments, loss of life, failure of the Iraqis to embrace our vision for them, and possible myhem while our forces are engaged. Fortunately, the last item has not come to pass yet, but it is a very real possibility. It will be a dark day in American history, when we back our of a just cause because we're afraid of the costs. The former soviet union lost the cold war, simply becasue they could not keep up with our technology, from a finacial standpoint. They couldn't afford the war any more. War is not cheap, war is not pretty, war in not fun. But sometimes war is necessary. I believe that now is one of those times. The terrorists belive (as you do evidently) that Americans will not go the long road, becasue of financial worries. All they have to do to win this war, is to outlast our resolve. Should we prove them right? What would the effect of that do to our security in the long run? snip So which is it? In one breath you acknowledge that it is possible to bankrupt a country on a fools errand, in the next you say that we should pay any price to win. You claim the war is necessary - why? You compare the roles Hitler and Saddam. In one case we had German boots all over Europe and north Africa, in the other we had Iraqi boots in - Iraq. The job of containment was completed in '91 and no further warfare is needed. Even you must see that the claims that Saddam could deploy WMDs was simply not true. That leave the claim that we are bringing our values to the middle east. We have had a bit longer to work in Afghanistan and I am having trouble seeing how that is working out in our favor. You are still claiming that Iraq is somehow related to the terrorists in a meaningful way. If a connection, however slim is justification for dropping 80 billion a year, then the much stronger evidence in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia is surly going to need a response. Think through what the outcome will be from tackling the biggest energy suppler and a nuclear armed nation. It is stretching our military to deal with two relatively insignificant players. Trying to change attitudes at the barrel of a gun are not working in the tiny west bank - what could possible make you think it is going to work out better elsewhere? Pretend for a moment that you were actually a fiscal conservative and tell me what we are getting for our 80 billion dollars a year? While you are thinking this through, do remember that it *is* possible to spend a country into ruin. As you noted, a country can be so enamored with its ideological aspirations that it ignore economic realities. Mark Browne |
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