On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:39:05 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

I took the Tolman back to the mechanic and he decided to look it over
while I was there. Took the cover off and he pronounced "Bad gas,
smell that varnish smell" and yes, I did. He verified spark and fuel
delivery. He sprayed starting fluid in and she she started but died
as soon as it was gas only. Yes, this gas is about 4 months old and
probably had ethanol but the tank is nearly full so I did not think
I'd get enough humidity in to matter.
He advised to NEVER buy fuel with ethanol in it and never keep fuel
for more than a couple of weeks. Unless I buy only at marinas, it
will be tough to find ethanol free fuel.

Do I get a prize for diagnosing it correctly?

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
I took the Tolman back to the mechanic and he decided to look it over
while I was there. Took the cover off and he pronounced "Bad gas,
smell that varnish smell" and yes, I did. He verified spark and fuel
delivery. He sprayed starting fluid in and she she started but died
as soon as it was gas only. Yes, this gas is about 4 months old and
probably had ethanol but the tank is nearly full so I did not think
I'd get enough humidity in to matter.
He advised to NEVER buy fuel with ethanol in it and never keep fuel
for more than a couple of weeks. Unless I buy only at marinas, it
will be tough to find ethanol free fuel.

I just bought a used boat. It had a small 1.2hp trolling motor. There was
plastic gas compartment that would hold about two cups of gas. I
disassembled nearly the whole engine and cleaned and fixed. I poured the
gas into a shallow container to use as parts wash. It smelled strongly like
a can of paint varnish. The project took a couple of evenings, and the
smell just hung in the shop so bad I finally poured the gas into a sealed
can. My atvs get "bad gas" from time to time from gas setting.

It's just good to use gas up and not let it sit around for any length of
time. Stabil helps, but it changes over time.

Steve

On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:39:05 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

He advised to NEVER buy fuel with ethanol in it and never keep fuel
for more than a couple of weeks. Unless I buy only at marinas, it
will be tough to find ethanol free fuel.

In Iowa, where they make the ethanol, every vendor offers three grades
of gas, one of which has ethanol. As for keeping fuel more than two
weeks, that is just insane. How long do you think it is in the
pipeline before it sits around the tank farm? The local small town
convenience store sells 100 octane gas during the racing season.
Very expensive it is, low lead 100 avgas is much cheaper.

Casady

On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 12:36:01 -0400, wrote:

Storing gasoline above ground in a small tank (car, lawnmower,
outboard motor tank, etc) greatly increases the rate at which
moisture is absorbed. The underground tanks maintain a pretty constant
temperature.

Moisture has no particular effect on the formation of gum, which is
the issue under discussion.

Casady

wrote:
On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 07:22:26 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 12:36:01 -0400, wrote:

Storing gasoline above ground in a small tank (car, lawnmower,
outboard motor tank, etc) greatly increases the rate at which
moisture is absorbed. The underground tanks maintain a pretty constant
temperature.
Moisture has no particular effect on the formation of gum, which is
the issue under discussion.

Casady

The subject, stated on the subject line, is bad fuel. When talking
about problems with storing gas for long periods, water is a bigger
problem than formation of gum. You can retard or prevent the foramtion
of gum. You can't do much about phase separation of water in fuel.


Ah, but there is something tou can do. Look up a product called
Water-Zorb. It really works like magic.

wrote:
On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 10:14:37 -0400, Jim22208
wrote:

wrote:
On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 07:22:26 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 12:36:01 -0400, wrote:

Storing gasoline above ground in a small tank (car, lawnmower,
outboard motor tank, etc) greatly increases the rate at which
moisture is absorbed. The underground tanks maintain a pretty constant
temperature.
Moisture has no particular effect on the formation of gum, which is
the issue under discussion.

Casady
The subject, stated on the subject line, is bad fuel. When talking
about problems with storing gas for long periods, water is a bigger
problem than formation of gum. You can retard or prevent the foramtion
of gum. You can't do much about phase separation of water in fuel.

Ah, but there is something tou can do. Look up a product called
Water-Zorb. It really works like magic.

That's just another brand name for Dri-Gas. It's basically just
alcohol, like the alcohol that caused the problem. Adding more alcohol
may get you going in the short term, but will also likely shorten the
life of your engine.

There is no treatment you can add to gasoline that will eliminate
phase separation.

I've tested it and used it for several years. It works. It's not dry gas.

On Apr 3, 10:53*am, wrote:
On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 10:14:37 -0400, Jim22208
wrote:





wrote:
On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 07:22:26 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 12:36:01 -0400, wrote:

Storing gasoline above ground in a small tank (car, lawnmower,
outboard motor tank, etc) *greatly increases the rate at which
moisture is absorbed. The underground tanks maintain a pretty constant
temperature.
Moisture has no particular effect on the formation of gum, which is
the issue under discussion.

Casady

The subject, stated on the subject line, *is bad fuel. When talking
about problems with storing gas for long periods, water is a bigger
problem than formation of gum. You can retard or prevent the foramtion
of gum. You can't do much about phase separation of water in fuel.

Ah, but there is something tou can do. Look up a product called
Water-Zorb. It really works like magic.

That's just another *brand name for Dri-Gas. It's basically just
alcohol, like the alcohol that caused the problem. Adding more alcohol
may get you going in the short term, but will also likely shorten the
life of your engine.

There is no treatment you can add to gasoline that will eliminate
phase separation.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There are products, however, that will protect against phase
separation happening in the first place.

On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 09:37:39 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 07:22:26 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 12:36:01 -0400, wrote:

Storing gasoline above ground in a small tank (car, lawnmower,
outboard motor tank, etc) greatly increases the rate at which
moisture is absorbed. The underground tanks maintain a pretty constant
temperature.

Moisture has no particular effect on the formation of gum, which is
the issue under discussion.

Casady

The subject, stated on the subject line, is bad fuel. When talking
about problems with storing gas for long periods, water is a bigger
problem than formation of gum. You can retard or prevent the foramtion
of gum. You can't do much about phase separation of water in fuel.

Good fuel that happens to be in the same container as water is still
good fuel, you can start a new thread about separating water from fuel
if you like, but good fuel floating on water is still good fuel. This
is normally found in all tankers and most storage tanks. They strain
out the dead shrimp before it gets to you tank.

As for preventing gum, they mostly do all that needs doing at the
refinery. We have been leaving gas over the winter in the same
runabout for fifty years without a trace of gum. No problems with
water either. The only gum I have ever seen was in a lawn mower from a
thrift shop, and for all I know the varnish and gas were thirty years
old. The mower was that old.

You might not want drain valves for gasoline possibly dripping into
the bilge, but Diesel tanks should have quick drains, same as all the
light airplanes. [I presume heavy planes have them as well.]

The references to phase separation that I have found refer to water
washing the ethanol from fuel. When you then remove the water layer,
in numerous ways the boating community seems not to use,
the gasoline will be a point or so lower in octane since ethanol rates
100+ octane, [as do methanol, propane, toluene, acetone, 2,2,5
trimethyl pentane]. That last I threw in because it is the reference
fuel for the octane scale.

Casady

"Richard Casady" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 09:37:39 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 07:22:26 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 12:36:01 -0400, wrote:

Storing gasoline above ground in a small tank (car, lawnmower,
outboard motor tank, etc) greatly increases the rate at which
moisture is absorbed. The underground tanks maintain a pretty constant
temperature.

Moisture has no particular effect on the formation of gum, which is
the issue under discussion.

Casady

The subject, stated on the subject line, is bad fuel. When talking
about problems with storing gas for long periods, water is a bigger
problem than formation of gum. You can retard or prevent the foramtion
of gum. You can't do much about phase separation of water in fuel.

Good fuel that happens to be in the same container as water is still
good fuel, you can start a new thread about separating water from fuel
if you like, but good fuel floating on water is still good fuel. This
is normally found in all tankers and most storage tanks. They strain
out the dead shrimp before it gets to you tank.

As for preventing gum, they mostly do all that needs doing at the
refinery. We have been leaving gas over the winter in the same
runabout for fifty years without a trace of gum. No problems with
water either. The only gum I have ever seen was in a lawn mower from a
thrift shop, and for all I know the varnish and gas were thirty years
old. The mower was that old.

You might not want drain valves for gasoline possibly dripping into
the bilge, but Diesel tanks should have quick drains, same as all the
light airplanes. [I presume heavy planes have them as well.]

The references to phase separation that I have found refer to water
washing the ethanol from fuel. When you then remove the water layer,
in numerous ways the boating community seems not to use,
the gasoline will be a point or so lower in octane since ethanol rates
100+ octane, [as do methanol, propane, toluene, acetone, 2,2,5
trimethyl pentane]. That last I threw in because it is the reference
fuel for the octane scale.

Casady

My BIL took in an 8hp shredder to have it fixed, as it had sat for a couple
of years. The mechanic said that "the carburetor was so gummed up, he had
to replace it." And he did kindly with a USED one, which he charged $125
for including labor. I believe I could have soaked and brushed it into
usability.

Steve

On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 09:49:31 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:

My BIL took in an 8hp shredder to have it fixed, as it had sat for a couple
of years. The mechanic said that "the carburetor was so gummed up, he had
to replace it." And he did kindly with a USED one, which he charged $125
for including labor. I believe I could have soaked and brushed it into
usability.

Replacing the carburetor is common practice in my experience.
Cleaning an old one is labor intensive and there is some risk that it
may take more than one cleaning/rebuilding to get it right. That's OK
if you are doing the work yourself and have lots of spare time but the
guys making a living at it like to turn the work around quickly and
get it right the first time.