(PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Sylvain Fauvel:
I would go for a Bottom or 1 piece with socks Attached. Cold feet is a
common problem, even with a dry-suit.

What concerns me about my one-piece bag suit with integral
GoreTex socks is the prospect of shipping water, but not having a
place (ankle gaskets) for it to drain. It would just pool in the
legs. At some point, the weight of same could impede re-entry
into the boat.

Comfort/convenience-wise, it's the cat's meow, but I wouldn't
call it bulletproof.

You can make that type of argument about almost anything, but in the
real world, it's a much more theoretical problem than an actual one.
I've never heard of anyone dieing due to water in their dry suit. Unless
you paddle in conditions where you frequently tear up your clothing and
end up with water in it, it's simply not a realistic concern.

Per Brian Nystrom:
I've never heard of anyone dieing due to water in their dry suit. Unless
you paddle in conditions where you frequently tear up your clothing and
end up with water in it, it's simply not a realistic concern.

I've read of one dying and a couple almost dying - and I don't go
looking for that kind of stuff.

The guy who died was local. Went out without enough under the
suit, fell in just beyond the surf line and perished before the
eyes of people on the beach.

The near misses were a couple of guys on a Hobie 16.

Repeated attempts to right the Hobie caused their suits to ship
water in small increments (make a fist and observe the little
tunnels that open up between the tendons.... same thing with the
neck).

They had taken on enough water that the PolarTec under the suits
had become so heavy that they could no longer climb up on the
Hobie's hull. Their account was that they would have died if a
power boat hadn't happened along in time.

Balancing the insulating layer under a bag suit is a game that
everybody has to play: too much and you overheat from paddling,
too little and you lose heat too quickly when immersed.

After every cold-water sesh in my bag suit I try to flop into
neck-deep water and fool around with the boat for awhile until
the chill starts to penetrate.

Call me a slow learner, but I am always surprised at how short a
time that is.
--
PeteCresswell

(PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Brian Nystrom:
I've never heard of anyone dieing due to water in their dry suit. Unless
you paddle in conditions where you frequently tear up your clothing and
end up with water in it, it's simply not a realistic concern.

I've read of one dying and a couple almost dying - and I don't go
looking for that kind of stuff.

The guy who died was local. Went out without enough under the
suit, fell in just beyond the surf line and perished before the
eyes of people on the beach.

OK, but what does that have to do with whether to put socks on a dry
suit or not, or tearing it, which is what we were discussing? It sounds
like this guy died of hypothermia due to inadequate insulation, not from
a leaking suit.

The near misses were a couple of guys on a Hobie 16.

Repeated attempts to right the Hobie caused their suits to ship
water in small increments (make a fist and observe the little
tunnels that open up between the tendons.... same thing with the
neck).

I've spent a LOT of time in the water in my dry suit (many hours), in
the course of instructing and playing victim in rescue scenarios. I have
never had a significant leak, despite doing a lot of clambering around
on decks and being pulled and dragged onto boats by students. I
understand your point about neck and wrist tendons, but I'm a thin guy
and I still have no problem with that. The worst I've experienced is
slightly damp wrist cuffs/sleeves on my underlayers. I've had more
moisture accumulate in the sleeves from sweating than from seal leakage.

BTW, I trim my seals so that they're comfortable, so it's not a matter
of having seals that are really tight to keep the water out. While this
tendon issue may be a problem for some people, it's not true for everyone.

Unless you are repeated going underwater, you should not get significant
water in through a neck seal in a rescue scenario, even with comfortable
-fitting seals.

Having latex or Gore-Tex socks eliminates leaks at the ankle, where
tendons can be even more of a problem than at the wrists and neck.

They had taken on enough water that the PolarTec under the suits
had become so heavy that they could no longer climb up on the
Hobie's hull. Their account was that they would have died if a
power boat hadn't happened along in time.

- What kind of suits were they wearing?
- What type of seals did they have (latex, neoprene)?
- Which seals leaked in the water (wrist, neck, ankle)?
- Were they using neck rings?
- How could they have let water out of the legs - as you suggested - if
they couldn't get out of the water?

My point here is that you need a lot more information than just that
they were wearing dry suits if you're going to use this incident as an
example of why you shouldn't use latex or Gore-Tex socks on a dry suit.

Balancing the insulating layer under a bag suit is a game that
everybody has to play: too much and you overheat from paddling,
too little and you lose heat too quickly when immersed.

True and there is no way to be perfectly balanced all the time, since
your effort level will likely vary during the day. However, a breathable
suit does a good job of keeping you warm, dry and comfortable. Even when
I had to dress for repeated, prolonged immersion in 40 degree water (for
"teabag" duty in classes), yet still exert myself substantially, I
managed to be pretty comfortable.

After every cold-water sesh in my bag suit I try to flop into
neck-deep water and fool around with the boat for awhile until
the chill starts to penetrate.

Call me a slow learner, but I am always surprised at how short a
time that is.

I've been able to remain relatively comfortable for up to 30 minutes of
playing victim in the water with just long underwear and 300 weight
fleece. If I was exerting myself enough to generate more heat, rather
than playing at being incapacitated, I would probably have been OK for
considerably longer. The biggest problem was my legs and feet, since I
was vertical in the water most of the time and the extra water pressure
on my lower extremities compressed my insulation more.

One thing I can say for certain is that having latex socks that I could
wear wool socks under was a godsend. Before I installed them, even much
short immersion was very painful on the feet. A friend of mine did a
test and spent 19 minutes in 28/29 degree salt water. The only reason he
got out was that his feet were killing him. He only had ankle seals on
his dry suit at the time. I would never want a dry suit without
waterproof socks.

Per Brian Nystrom:
True and there is no way to be perfectly balanced all the time, since
your effort level will likely vary during the day. However, a breathable
suit does a good job of keeping you warm, dry and comfortable. Even when
I had to dress for repeated, prolonged immersion in 40 degree water (for
"teabag" duty in classes), yet still exert myself substantially, I
managed to be pretty comfortable.

For lake paddling, I wear a Kokatat GoreTex full bag with
integral socks. I tend to dress on the cool side and stay close
to shore.

It's the end-all-do-all for comfort/convenience.

But at the end of every workout, the fleece that I wear
underneath it is pretty soaked to the point where it can be wrung
out..

If I'm paddling two hours or so, sometimes I'll stop halfway
through, take the thing off, take a leak, and hang some of my
clothes out to dry for awhile.

Suit isn't leaking in that scenario - it's just sweat.

My experience is that "Breathable" means that if you stand around
without exertion long enough eventually the suit will breathe
itself dry.... but if I'm paddling, I'm sweating faster than the
suite can transpire.
--
PeteCresswell

Per Brian Nystrom:
One thing I can say for certain is that having latex socks that I could
wear wool socks under was a godsend. Before I installed them, even much
short immersion was very painful on the feet. A friend of mine did a
test and spent 19 minutes in 28/29 degree salt water.

I wear NRS' "expedition-weight" neoprene socks under them and
Tevas "Neutron" surf shoes over them.

19 minutes is at the long end of what I can spend in 30-ish water
before I start *really* feeling the chill.

That's all well and good.... and 19 minutes is better than
five.... but it definitely puts things in perspective for me.
--
PeteCresswell